Author Topic: Did God give humans free will?  (Read 914 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Did God give humans free will?
« on: May 07, 2012, 03:48:13 PM »
I don't know why it took me so long to come to this conclusion.

The answer is no.

God created man to take care of the earth.  If man does not do this then he is worthless.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 04:27:19 PM »
Then god is responsible for all death and suffering as well. He is responsible for every horrible thing mankind has ever done or will do. And he did it all happily.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2012, 05:48:56 PM »
Not so.  Man is free to do as he wishes as long as he fulfills his purpose.  If man causes himself suffering then that's man's fault since they won't take any advice from God.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2012, 05:53:10 PM »
Jstweb,

Do you mind telling me what evidence I should accept as a revelation of the deity you believe in? I've asked you several times and you never answered. I have no idea what evidence I should accept, and I need your help with it. How do I tell the difference between a deity's actions and an alien technology millions of years advanced?

Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2012, 05:56:05 PM »
Not so.  Man is free to do as he wishes as long as he fulfills his purpose.  If man causes himself suffering then that's man's fault since they won't take any advice from God.

You can't have it both ways, either man has free will or he doesn't. If he doesn't then he cannot be held responsible for his actions because he cannot control them and has no say in his fate. If he does then god cannot give him commands to obey without violating that free will, nor can god punish him for acting contrary to his will because that would violate his freedom.

We went over this already. Making a new thread does not mean you get to run from what was said previously. No matter how much you clearly want to.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2012, 05:58:51 PM »
Oh and by the way, Jst. I still want a reply to this.

Furthermore, if my education serves me correctly, it was God and christianity the slaves drew strength from while they endured the slavery.  If I had to bet, I would bet that if anyone of those involved were "true" christians it would have been the black people.

Yeah it was. AFTER they were forced into it by their masters. You know, those Christians who put them in chains in the first place and made them give up or forcibly took away most of their culture. But yes, after Christians took away their own religion, their freedom, their families, their homeland, and everything else that they had that was their own, they did turn to the Christian god. Which admittedly is actually a very accurate example of how god operates in Christian mythology.

In furtherance of your "education" (geez I can't believe I actually used that word in anyway that was applicable to Jst) African slaves did not even truly practice Christianity in anyway that you would likely. Their Christian masters couldn't entirely beat their culture out of them. Instead what they practiced was a combination of Christiabity and their old world religious beliefs. Christ was interpreted as a shaman or witch doctor and rather than the bible much of their faith was marked by ritualistic songs and dances and combined with various charms.

One such example is the religion of Vodun (or more familiarly known as Voodoo) which worships the Christian god but does not interpret him in the Christian way. Their version of god is completely separated from the world and can only interact in anyway through intermediaries (essentially demigods) called the Loa. Each Loa is associated with a certain aspect of the world or nature much as most pagan gods are. Baron Samedi, for instance, is a Loa of the dead along with the other incarnations of the Baron and represents covers the realm of sex and ressurection. He is also asssociated with obscenity, and debauchery as well as alcohol and tobacco.

So no, they were not quite "true" Christians most likely. You're just engaging in poor attempts at justification.

Do you really think you can make such a comment out of such ignorance and racial insensitivity without being called on it?

Stop trying to get around what you said by making Ad Hominem arguments against me.

Edit: Actually one final thing.

Not so.  Man is free to do as he wishes as long as he fulfills his purpose.  If man causes himself suffering then that's man's fault since they won't take any advice from God.

I'm curious as to what you think gives you the right to arrogantly pass judgement like this? You assume that any time a person is suffering it is because they won't take advice from god. Tjhat man must complete his purpose for god. The sheer ego you display is astounding. Exactly what do you use to support this claim?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 06:02:00 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2012, 06:05:14 PM »
God created man to take care of the earth. 
Why did not god create an earth that could look after itself? Animals, plants look after themselves.

There is God, in Genesis saying, "Ge:1:31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." when in fact it was not good at all - it needed looking after!

Back in the day, the Great Moghul Emperors used to ruin their enemies by giving them a white elephant. A gift from the emperor cannot be refused. An elephant is expensive to keep. If it died or became ill, it was a great insult to the emperor. The emperor checked to see that the elephant always had the best of everything.

Eventually the wealth of the recipient would dwindle to nothing - the elephant would go hungry and then the recipient would be killed for the insult to the emperor.

God has done this, hasn't he? Given us an earth too expensive to keep - we are but worms upon its face and can do nothing right.

Then, come Armageddon, we get killed.

Nice one God...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 06:05:34 PM »
Quote
then he cannot be held responsible for his actions because he cannot control them.

Are you suggesting you have no control over your actions?  If so, then have you reported this strange behavior to your doctor?

This argument is ridiculous and borders on just outright silly.  God did not force Adam to eat the fruit.  God said if you want to live and be happy then do this.  If you eat the fruit then you're on your own.

The justice that lies in this is that those that actually do submit to his authority will be redeemed and basically be given another chance.  And the Bible says they will succeed.

Quote
Do you mind telling me what evidence I should accept as a revelation of the deity you believe in? I've asked you several times and you never answered. I have no idea what evidence I should accept, and I need your help with it. How do I tell the difference between a deity's actions and an alien technology millions of years advanced?

No I just keep forgetting.  If you would like to discuss this then please create a thread for it.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 06:07:57 PM »

No I just keep forgetting.  If you would like to discuss this then please create a thread for it.

Will do now. Thanks.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 06:11:55 PM »
Are you suggesting you have no control over your actions?  If so, then have you reported this strange behavior to your doctor?

This argument is ridiculous and borders on just outright silly.  God did not force Adam to eat the fruit.  God said if you want to live and be happy then do this.  If you eat the fruit then you're on your own.

What is ridiculous is your poor attempts at dodging. You said that there is no free will. If that is true then there is no choice. God may not have forced Adam to eat the fruit but he had no choice in whether he did or not. It was predetermined. You are the one making the claim. This is what it would mean if your claim is true. You cannot say free will does not exist and then blame us for what happens.

The justice that lies in this is that those that actually do submit to his authority will be redeemed and basically be given another chance.  And the Bible says they will succeed.

Firstly prove that is true.

Secondly this still does not allow humans to be blamed for anything if there is no free will. The absence of free will means that we cannot change the course of our lives. So god created this all to play out the way we wanted. You're willful ignorance and lack of intelligence does not change anything.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 06:17:17 PM »
Oh and by the way, Jst. I still want a reply to this.

No I am not replying to comments that contain hateful belittlments of me.  And now I am a racist?  If your opinion of me is that low then you shouldn't even be asking me for my opinion in the first place.  I don't like talking to stupid racists either.   
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 06:21:13 PM »

No I am not replying to comments that contain hateful belittlments of me.  And now I am a racist?  If your opinion of me is that low then you shouldn't even be asking me for my opinion in the first place.  I don't like talking to stupid racists either.   

This is just a Strawman and an Ad Hominem. I did not say you were racist. I said the comment was racially insensitive. Why do you feel the need to make things up.

And where was this hateful belittlement? I made a comment about your education level that was hardly hateful.

This argument is ridiculous and borders on just outright silly.

So once again it's ok for you to make comments like this, but as soon as someone else does you run and hide.

Now go ahead and respond to the point. I'm waiting. Why do you have so many problems when people try to hold you the things that you say?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Tinyal

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 06:46:51 PM »
Isn't your god responsible for everything?

Sure, many human's are greedy, holding onto much more weath than they need - some people might suggest their wealth would do more good spread around, buying food for the poor, putting in more local water systems, etc.  This (whether or not it's a good idea) would reduce some human-caused (to stretch it a bit) suffering...

But what about earthquakes and tidal waves that kill millions - with thousands of infants drowned, or smashed?  What about diseases from mosquitos infecting 2 year olds who never get to age 3, and spend their last year shitting their life away?  What about the 10's of thousands (that number is on the low side) of innocent children under age 5 who get to that age with bodies stunted, belly bloated from hunger, who spent their entire short lives craving more than a 1/4 bowl of rice (and that's it), never to know what a full stomach is?? - regardless of the actual cause, would an all-loving, all powerful parent allow such suffering to occur?

My parents weren't exactly perfect - but they kept me clothed and fed, and donated to the Red Cross to help others - what , exactly, has your god done?

What has any god done?

Anything and anyone who knows in advance, who has the power (all powerful, remember?), and who loves us at least as much as a parent does, who allows such massive amounts of suffering to come to innocent children is not worthy of my attentions, much less my worship.  Any such being (if it exists, which I doubt - as no evidence has ever been found over 1000's of years) would deserve nothing but hate, contempt, and rebellion.

If such a being existed, I'd spit in it's face and do whatever I could to overthrow or kill it, whatever the personal cost to myself.  That's called sacrifice (the 3 day vacation jesus supposedly had after minor suffering (minor, compared to being waterboarded 168 times) wasn't any sort of real sacrifice.

God exists?  Not an all loving, all powerful, omnipresent one.  No way, no how.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 06:51:30 PM »

Why did not god create an earth that could look after itself? Animals, plants look after themselves.

There is God, in Genesis saying, "Ge:1:31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." when in fact it was not good at all - it needed looking after!


You don't ever enjoy looking after things? Many people derive enormous pleasure from gardening, for instance.
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Offline Tinyal

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 06:57:46 PM »
Magicmiles, there appears to be a slight bit of difference between pruning the roses, and cleaning up after a swarm of locusts wipes out 1/3rd of your countries only food supply, don't ya think?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2012, 06:59:57 PM »
I was merely addressing Graybeard's comment on God calling the world good when humans were required to look after His creation. I think it is a good thing to look after the planet. How boring would it be if we just...existed.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2012, 07:07:56 PM »
You don't ever enjoy looking after things? Many people derive enormous pleasure from gardening, for instance.
I hate gardening - hate it! But things of subjective beauty are - by definition - beautiful. Whilst agreeing with Tinyal's comment, I don't think I can see the God, who has killed 2 million so far and intends to kill another 2.3Billion, as some sort of celestial English gardener tending his roses.

Your analogy also has the disadvantage of making mankind seem to be no more than ants put there to control a planet that was put there by god. Had he wanted a perfectly beautiful planet, why didn't he just create one and stare at it endlessly?

There are works of art and nature that I can stare at for quite a while.

Come on, admit it -jst's explanation does not cut it.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2012, 07:09:53 PM »
How boring would it be if we just...existed.
What? You mean like god "just exists"? Or how heaven is filled with people who, "just exist."?

I do believe you are coming round to our way of thinking.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline stuffin

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2012, 07:48:52 PM »
How boring would it be if we just...existed.
What? You mean like god "just exists"? Or how heaven is filled with people who, "just exist."?

I do believe you are coming round to our way of thinking.
Yup, like heaven where you live happily for all eternity. Golfing all day, your favorite TV show is always on (or your favorite song is always playing), the food is always fresh with no use by dates, the wine and spirits always the best, the opulence never ends and let’s not forget the endless supply of beautiful virgins. You would never have to think or worry, you would be just existing like God?

Just existing (in heaven) would become very boring at some point.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2012, 08:31:22 PM »
Quote
This argument is ridiculous and borders on just outright silly.

So once again it's ok for you to make comments like this, but as soon as someone else does you run and hide.

Okay that was a little hateful and belittling.  I apologize.  Now it's your turn?

Quote
Sure, many human's are greedy, holding onto much more weath than they need - some people might suggest their wealth would do more good spread around, buying food for the poor, putting in more local water systems, etc.  This (whether or not it's a good idea) would reduce some human-caused (to stretch it a bit) suffering...

Why is it you so easily dismiss any human accountability?

Quote
What about the 10's of thousands (that number is on the low side) of innocent children under age 5 who get to that age with bodies stunted, belly bloated from hunger, who spent their entire short lives craving more than a 1/4 bowl of rice (and that's it), never to know what a full stomach is??

Your answer lies in your first statement.  Why are you so angry at God for this?  Since you are an athiest then who really is left to blame?  Mankind! Are you still as angry or do you simple dismiss it?  Certainly the earth can grow enough food.  If it couldn't then that might be God's fault and not ours.  How much money do humans spend on weapons meant to destroy each other?  How many hungry could be fed for that amount?  Probably all of them for a thousand years to come from just one year of weapon making.  Does this not make you angry?!

Quote
But what about earthquakes and tidal waves that kill millions - with thousands of infants drowned, or smashed?  What about diseases from mosquitos infecting 2 year olds who never get to age 3, and spend their last year shitting their life away?

Jesus, as a perfect man, demonstrated his ability to control the weather and heal the sick by asking for God's help.  If only we could become like Jesus was.

So why doesn't God do anything!?  This is a rightful question to ask.  And the answer is because mankind will not accept it!  It's as simple as that.  Mankind is not only being judged as individuals but mankind, as a whole, is being judged.  Those that do accept God's help are helped by God individually during this time, but only to a certain extent.  He will not carry it to the extent of helping mankind as a whole unless mankind as a whole accepts it.  The individuals will have to wait until the 1000 reign of Christ for the complete fulfillment of their prayers.

Those that accept God's headship are more than willing to submit to this sad situation although they do not like it.  They understand why it is happening and what is at stake.  They also understand what is at the end of it and realize that any amount of suffering they are now subject to is nothing in comparison to what awaits them in the future.  They also understand that the problem at hand will never come up again.

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My parents weren't exactly perfect - but they kept me clothed and fed, and donated to the Red Cross to help others - what , exactly, has your god done?

He designed the family for you.

Quote
If such a being existed, I'd spit in it's face and do whatever I could to overthrow or kill it, whatever the personal cost to myself.

Well how about if no such being exists as you believe?  To whom should you direct your anger? Either way the blame rests with man.  Uhhh, however any anger should not be carried out with any sort of violent action.  I assume we are all mentally stable here.

Quote from: Graybeard
Why did not god create an earth that could look after itself? Animals, plants look after themselves.

He did.  Humans are a part of the earth that takes care of itself.  And mostly, if man leaves them alone, the animals will take care of theirselves.

Quote
God has done this, hasn't he? Given us an earth too expensive to keep - we are but worms upon its face and can do nothing right.

No, neither of those statements are true.  In certain areas, and at certain times, humans have performed admirably.  But at other times they have failed miserably.  I means it's not like they're not trying at all.  Let's take those that want to save the environment as an example.  They must fight every step of the way.  Those that try to feed the hungry?  They too must fight every step of the way.  Why?  Because of differing morals. 

No human has the authority to define any sort of objective morality.  So what is considered good for one country is not considered good for another.  So they make war.  They rally against environmentalists.  They don't feed the hungry.  If I could force everyone to accept my definition of good and evil then we would all be in agreement and there would be no more war.  But only a god can hold this much authority.

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Your analogy also has the disadvantage of making mankind seem to be no more than ants put there to control a planet that was put there by god.

Yes now you are beginning to gain some perspective.

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Had he wanted a perfectly beautiful planet, why didn't he just create one and stare at it endlessly?

Because that's not what he wanted.  He created it in order to share life with others.

Quote
What? You mean like god "just exists"? Or how heaven is filled with people who, "just exist."?

Neither of these statement are true.  God, and those in heaven work.  Just like he created humans to do.  I'm sure all of their work is not confined to this world.  But in realtion to this world, much work is being carried out in heaven at this very moment.  It's not like everyone just sits around and bows down to God all the time while he's kicked back with a cigar is his mouth on some beach.  Everyone has something to do, and most gain satisfaction from carrying out their job.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 08:46:58 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2012, 09:25:25 PM »
Okay that was a little hateful and belittling.  I apologize.  Now it's your turn?


Why? I wasn't asking for your apology, I was merely pointing out that you habitually engage in the exact same behaviour that you use as an excuse to avoid responding to the points raised against you. I objected to the hypocrisy.

Jst, I really don't care if you're insulting or not. It has no impact on the value of what you say. I grew up out of the "I don't want to play with him, he's a big meanie" phase long ago. What I do care about is the quality of your arguments and your level of honesty, if you want to apologize for something, apologize for that.

Look, you want to keep believing in god, fine. But stop pretending that you have answers you don't, stop trying to run and hide when you get called out on the things you say, and actually try to educate yourself before you type something.

I'll stop pointing out when you say something stupid when you stop saying stupid things. I'm not going to mince words just because your precious feelings can't handle it. We have a kids section now for that sort of thing.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2012, 09:36:52 PM »
Quote
What about the 10's of thousands (that number is on the low side) of innocent children under age 5 who get to that age with bodies stunted, belly bloated from hunger, who spent their entire short lives craving more than a 1/4 bowl of rice (and that's it), never to know what a full stomach is??

Your answer lies in your first statement.  Why are you so angry at God for this?  Since you are an athiest then who really is left to blame?  Mankind! Are you still as angry or do you simple dismiss it?  Certainly the earth can grow enough food.  If it couldn't then that might be God's fault and not ours.  How much money do humans spend on weapons meant to destroy each other?  How many hungry could be fed for that amount?  Probably all of them for a thousand years to come from just one year of weapon making.  Does this not make you angry?!

Atheists do not believe in god.  We know mankind is to blame.  We make too many babies and we don't have enough food.  It's that simple.  What I think we have a problem with is the fact that you worship a god that, if he exists, allows all of the starvation to happen without lifting a finger. 

Imagine you, yourself had the ability to grow enough food in your basement to feed the entire world and it would cost you literally nothing to do it.  This is what God has at his fingertips.  He doesn't do anything with it.  If YOU did that, I would think you were an ass hole.  If He exists like you say He does, then why should I not think the same thing of God?  I don't understand how you could see it any other way unless you are so deeply deluded in the notion that God is 'good', that you couldn't possibly see this fact as bad.   

Quote
But what about earthquakes and tidal waves that kill millions - with thousands of infants drowned, or smashed?  What about diseases from mosquitos infecting 2 year olds who never get to age 3, and spend their last year shitting their life away?

Jesus, as a perfect man, demonstrated his ability to control the weather and heal the sick by asking for God's help.  If only we could become like Jesus was.

Another few questions for you.  If Jesus had the power to heal everyone, but instead only picked and chose who to heal, does that make him a good guy or not?  If GOD has the power to heal everyone, but instead only picks and chooses who to heal, should we consider him 'good' or not?  If there were a doctor who had a magic pill that could heal every single person of their ailments and he only handed out a few of them, would you think him 'good'? 

The other option is that Jesus did none of that and they were just myths. 

So why doesn't God do anything!?  This is a rightful question to ask.  And the answer is because mankind will not accept it!

If God wasn't real, Jstwebbrowsing, would that explain why God does nothing?  Every excuse you use, every rationalization you come up with, every theological explanation you write down pales in comparison to the explanatory power of 'God isn't real'. 

Mankind will not accept it?  Ridiculous.

Mankind is not only being judged as individuals but mankind, as a whole, is being judged.  Those that do accept God's help are helped by God individually during this time, but only to a certain extent.  He will not carry it to the extent of helping mankind as a whole unless mankind as a whole accepts it.  The individuals will have to wait until the 1000 reign of Christ for the complete fulfillment of their prayers.

Or that's a heaping pile of useless information and the reason God doesn't help is that He's not real. 

Those that accept God's headship are more than willing to submit to this sad situation although they do not like it.  They understand why it is happening and what is at stake.  They also understand what is at the end of it and realize that any amount of suffering they are now subject to is nothing in comparison to what awaits them in the future.  They also understand that the problem at hand will never come up again.

Or they are simply trying to understand why a being that is supposedly the ultimate good, actually seems like such an ass hole. 

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My parents weren't exactly perfect - but they kept me clothed and fed, and donated to the Red Cross to help others - what , exactly, has your god done?

He designed the family for you.

Would you say the same of families that abuse and rape their own children?  Did God design those as well?  Why or why not?  And if he did not, how do you explain how families like that exist?  And be careful here, I'm trying to trap you in your own logic.   

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What? You mean like god "just exists"? Or how heaven is filled with people who, "just exist."?

Neither of these statement are true.  God, and those in heaven work.  Just like he created humans to do.  I'm sure all of their work is not confined to this world.  But in realtion to this world, much work is being carried out in heaven at this very moment.  It's not like everyone just sits around and bows down to God all the time while he's kicked back with a cigar is his mouth on some beach.  Everyone has something to do, and most gain satisfaction from carrying out their job.

Jst, do you understand the difference between theology and proof?  Your theology is basically what you come up with to defend your beliefs so that they make sense.  Proof is the evidence that you're right about it. 

Your unproven theological stances are useless without some sort of proof for what you say.  Seriously, they are useless.  I'm not trying to be mean, but imagine I told you something like the following...  Vikings in Valhalla sit around all the time and drink beer, just like they would do during their lifetime.  I am sure that's not all they would do, because sometimes they have to fight the dragons.  It's not as if all they do is sit around the table telling war stories and hitting on large breasted women.  All of them are busy, and they get a lot out of drinking, singing and fighting. 

Now, are you swayed by what I said?  No?  Then please understand that what I wrote is the equivalent of what you are saying here.  It's not backed up by facts.  What you say can not be verified.  It's only words that don't mean anything if you can't prove them.  In other words, god might not be in heaven, there might be no such thing as heaven, people don't go to heaven and they don't work in heaven because it's not there.  Just as you might say Valhalla doesn't exist so no, the vikings don't sit around drinking all the time, and no they don't fight dragons etc. 

Do you understand that?  Do you understand that the theology you use to back up your opinions is completely unproven and useless to the conversation?  It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you.  Not one bit.  You have postulated an all powerful, invisible being... literally ANY excuse you come up with is viable.  But in order to accept it, you have to back up what you say with some sort of evidence.  Please try to do that or admit you can't. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2012, 10:20:23 PM »
Jst, you need to keep this in mind. Humans are not perfect. There is no biological reason for us to be. As evolved beings, we have no source of perfection, no source of perfect morality, and no source of consistent and rewarding feedback that might stop us from irritating those around us. This is all natural. Perfectly natural.

Tomorrow morning I get to go steal back a horse trailer that was borrowed from a friend six weeks ago and never returned. The person who borrowed it has gotten himself into all sorts of trouble because, since he borrowed it, he has left his wife and two children and moved in with the mother of his best friends girlfriend. He has money problems, legal problems, kid problems, customer problems and presumably others I know nothing about. His world has gone from being just plain old ordinary bad to downright awful. But nothing he has done is outside the realm of normal human behavior, because even "normal" is not alway pleasant. He was always a little flakey but now that the flakey part has come off, he has turned out to be pretty obnoxious. But for me to expect that no human would ever behave this way, or behave worse would be naive. Humans do stuff like this. That's why we invented cuss words.

You are trying to say that your God set high standards and that 6,000 years ago a couple of newbie humans misbehaved. They had no idea what doing wrong was, because theirs was a perfect world. They didn't know the snake was evil because they didn't know what evil was. They didn't know what temptation was because they had never been tempted because the world was perfect. And they erred. And it is all their fault. And we humans are failing your God because of it.

That is way too simple an excuse. It allows adherents to beg forgiveness because they were influenced by the devil or some other similar source. It allows people to define themselves as the lowest of the low because they have disappointed their sky daddy. It allows people to excuse their actions because "hey, I'm a sinner, what do you expect" can pop out of their mouth and be believed. And it allows people to condemn others simply because their normal does not match with another normal.

None of those actions or reactions to less than perfect behavior is useful in any way, shape or form. It allows people to excuse their errors because some external force influenced or failed to influence them.

As an atheist, if I steal a cookie, it is because I am doing it, not because the devil whispered in my ear. If I get the hots for my neighbors wife and get involved in a relationship that shouldn't happen, it is because of selfishness and hormones and an elevated sense of personal importance. It is not because I was tempted by the lord as a test.

As an atheist, I have no expectation that everybody will be perfect. I've lived on this planet far too long to try invoking the Pollyanna rule. I know that most people will be pretty decent most the time, none will be perfect all the time, and that some will be idiots, if for no other reason than to remind me that idiots still exist.

Religion tries to simplify all of this. Religion tries to explain using examples that do not exist. Religion tries to admonish using criteria that are irrelevant and in fact harmful. Religion tries to cure bad behavior through artificial threats, fear, hate mongering, artificial divisions, silly stories and by ignoring reality. One of the reasons bad behavior is still so rampant is because nothing the religious do to try stopping it is effective in any way. Two thousand years of wrong does not make a right.

If religion were required to be good, I'd be pretty awful. But I'm not. So any assumption that belief is required to be good is already in trouble. On top of that, the religious have no monopoly whatsoever on good behavior. So I would suggest you look at something besides Eden to explain our flaws. Because otherwise you will never find a real answer.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2012, 11:27:21 PM »
So why doesn't God do anything!?  This is a rightful question to ask.  And the answer is because mankind will not accept it!  It's as simple as that.  Mankind is not only being judged as individuals but mankind, as a whole, is being judged.  Those that do accept God's help are helped by God individually during this time, but only to a certain extent.  He will not carry it to the extent of helping mankind as a whole unless mankind as a whole accepts it.  The individuals will have to wait until the 1000 reign of Christ for the complete fulfillment of their prayers.

Those that accept God's headship are more than willing to submit to this sad situation although they do not like it.  They understand why it is happening and what is at stake.  They also understand what is at the end of it and realize that any amount of suffering they are now subject to is nothing in comparison to what awaits them in the future.  They also understand that the problem at hand will never come up again.
So essentially god has imposed a policy akin to "The beatings will continue until morale improves." It is ridiculous to say that mankind is unwilling to accept god's 'help' in eradicating world hunger, illness, natural disasters, war, and the like. You would be very hard pressed to find anyone, theist or atheist, who would be opposed to seeing such things ended. The part of your deal that folks are less than willing to accept is the requirement to adhere to all the ludicrous xtian dogma that comes along with it. So, apparently, the few people that are presently 'willing' to accept god's help will still not receive it, because there are not enough of them doing it. The whole thing ends up being like a celestial Groupon offer that hasn't gotten enough subscribers to activate it.
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No human has the authority to define any sort of objective morality.  So what is considered good for one country is not considered good for another.  So they make war.  They rally against environmentalists.  They don't feed the hungry.  If I could force everyone to accept my definition of good and evil then we would all be in agreement and there would be no more war.  But only a god can hold this much authority.
Your god has the authority to enforce objective morality, and thereby end human suffering, but chooses not to do it. This makes him unworthy of worship in my view. You can (assuming, of course, your god actually exists) continue to suck up all you want in the misguided hope that he will stop being such a jerk once you're dead, but I have more realistic things to do while I'm here.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2012, 03:41:11 AM »

Jesus, as a perfect man, demonstrated his ability to control the weather and heal the sick by asking for God's help.  If only we could become like Jesus was.

So why doesn't God do anything!?  This is a rightful question to ask.  And the answer is because mankind will not accept it!  It's as simple as that.


Oh, for fuck's sake. Mankind is out for as much free stuff as he can get.

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Mankind is not only being judged as individuals but mankind, as a whole, is being judged.  Those that do accept God's help are helped by God individually during this time, but only to a certain extent.

A certain extent being, on average, nothing. You know damn well that God does not help you, so you hedge around it.

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He will not carry it to the extent of helping mankind as a whole unless mankind as a whole accepts it.

And this was revealed to you in a vision, where you found that your own mother was the virgin Mary.

Really, you know God will never do anything, and are just making up semi-plausible-non-biblical excuses.

I think you have gone well past your troll-by date.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2012, 04:19:40 AM »
Did God give humans free will? ..... The answer is no.

Man is free to do as he wishes.....

God did not force Adam to eat the fruit.  God said if you want to live and be happy then do this.  If you eat the fruit then you're on your own.

Jst, I have no idea what you mean by "free will".  Most people - whether they believe it exists or not - would define it as something like "the ability to make their own choices", which seems to be what you are saying in the second and third quotes above - quite explicitly in the third.

And yet you opened this thread by saying that your god did NOT give humans "free will".....so (presumbaly) did NOT give humans the ability to make choices....which you then go on to contradict.

It may be that you mean something entirely different by "free will" - but I think you need to define it so we know where you are coming from.  Otherwise your arguments makes no sense.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline stuffin

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2012, 08:27:05 AM »
Really, you know God will never do anything, and are just making up semi-plausible-non-biblical excuses.

I think you have gone well past your troll-by date.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2012, 09:49:23 AM »
I don't know why it took me so long to come to this conclusion.

The answer is no.

God created man to take care of the earth.  If man does not do this then he is worthless.


Does that include taking care of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ? It seems to me to be quite malevolent on gods part to put the tree there in the first place don't you think ?

Try thinking about it...... Why else would an all knowing god put a completely devastating game changing tree in a garden that he has instructed its imperfect gardeners to take care of ? He did so because with his foreknowledge he already knows that they will fail at their task and receive the death penalty that he has promised them if they were to fail. However, he's completely dishonest and does this without telling them that they're merely his pawns and that he already knows that they will indeed fuck up, and then simply sits on the sidelines and watches them eat, shit, have sex and waits for them to execute his preordained plan for the human race to fall and suffer terribly.

He ensures this preordained fall by sending in an extraordinary and visually powerful ally to deceive them and to take advantage of their emotions and intellectual weaknesses. Being all powerful he could have stopped this deceptive talking wonder but, as we have seen, this would be in violation of his already set in stone plan of his desire to see the human race fall and receive their penalty.

He intentionally neglects to tell them that he has created them with a design flaw that is definitely going to doom them and all humanity. He fails to tell them that they have no free will and are simply the opening act in a bizarre play that he has created to amuse himself.

If your god were to exist then, and based on the evidence gathered from this story, he created humanity with personal, and unjustifiable by any moral standards, bias towards a small minority, and with the full intention of allowing the majority to experience eternal torture. God loves the smell of burning flesh.

When are you religites going to begin to understand what forknowledge and preordained means ?

The god idea is a fucked up abstract load of sick bullshit and the A & E story confirms that.

But of course, you're not a thinking person, so sadly you'll wallow in your delusion for the rest of your life, but at least get that fucking thumb out of your mouth for gad sakes would ya !!  ;)





"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Did God give humans free will?
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2012, 10:30:07 AM »
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Had he wanted a perfectly beautiful planet, why didn't he just create one and stare at it endlessly?

Because that's not what he wanted.  He created it in order to share life with others.
How do you know this?

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What? You mean like god "just exists"? Or how heaven is filled with people who, "just exist."?

Neither of these statement are true.
How do you know? 
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God, and those in heaven work.
How do you know? What do they need to do?  Is god so weak that He has to work? He can create perfect universes but his plumbing leaks?
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Just like he created humans to do.
You are lying for Jesus again! Stop it! The Garden of Eden did not require any work from Adam, so how can you tell such lies? 
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I'm sure all of their work is not confined to this world.  But in realtion to this world, much work is being carried out in heaven at this very moment.
What??? How do you know?  What could he possibly be doing? Starving a few more children? Creating a new anti-biotic resistant bacteria? Drying up a river?
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It's not like everyone just sits around and bows down to God all the time while he's kicked back with a cigar is his mouth on some beach.
Look! I am serious! There is a commandment that says, “Thou shalt not bear false witness” by you do this all the time!

Re:7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Re:7:10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Re:7:11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Re:7:12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re:7:13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Re:7:14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Re:7:15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Re:7:16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Re:7:17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


See! God sits around whilst getting praised! Simple as that!

What do you make of, "neither shall the sun light on them" is it dark?
 
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”