every child needs a mother and a father... not.

[Timtheskeptic]

here's one thing I can never understand. When homophobic pastors or anti-gay politicians shout out about how every child needs a mother and a father, it makes me wonder why exactly does one need a mother and a father?

I'm raised by my mom and my dad, but i never think of it as important, it's just that they're the ones who cared for me and raised me. If i had been raised by two dads or two moms, what difference would that make? What exactly is there for a child to have a mother and a father? House cleaning? Cooking? Sewing? Shopping? knowledge on practically everything they can teach them? Feeding and nursing the babies? Caring for their illness and their wounds? Surely I, being a guy, can do all those things myself. If supposedly i was with another man and we adopted a child, what exactly is there missing?

If they think it's because a child needs a mother to bond with, well what about single fathers? Is it more of being confused about the relationships or procreation or whatever? Is it because of some abuse or negligence?

There is a lot of abuse and negligence in heterosexual households, so why is that ignored?

In my opinion, it was never about the children, it was about the "icky, icky gay people!" If they cared about the wellbeing of children, Then why not help those who are starving, those who are homeless, those who are abused by their heterosexual parents, in the orphanage, or even being treated as an object?

I can not think of a reason i needed a mom or a dad. When i bond with my mom, it's because she was there more than dad was (That is not to say he was absent, he works more often).

Also, why were the bigots having a go at gay parents and yet miss the fact that there are single parents raising a child or few children by themselves. No one seem to care about them. What is the difference between a single father raising a daughter and two gay dads raising a daughter? Surely they can have a sister who can provide some answers or help, or even a grandmother who could dote on her and answer her some questions the single father or two fathers may not. There really is nothing wrong here. What do you think?

[velkyn]

I once had an exchange of letters in my local paper with a bigoted asshole over the common Christian claim that a "real" family is only a mom, dad and 2.5 children, or whatever it was.   it's just more of the same wanting to force their delusions on others, and the fantasy that if people "just" had such a family they would turn out "right" and be Christian automatons.   I was raised in a household with a mom and a dad (whom I can't really recall fighting ever) and my brother.  We lived near my relatives and saw them frequently.  We even went to church.  And look at me now    So much for the illusion of a "perfect" family having a certain effect.

This type of person has no concern at all for kids.  They couldn't give a damn about them unless they were inculcated with their religion.  Along a similar line, my husband was asking "what's with the idiots who hate public schools but want those same public schools to teach religion to their children?  They want a resource they claim is inept to do this?"

It's all about control.

[Kimberly]

I think people prelabel gender roles and assume that the opposite sex can't meet those needs. People assume a child needs a mother to be nurtured, but not all women are nurturing. They assume they need a dad to be stern and discipline, but not all men are good disciplinarians.

[One Above All]

I think people prelabel gender roles and assume that the opposite sex can't meet those needs. People assume a child needs a mother to be nurtured, but not all women are nurturing. They assume they need a dad to be stern and discipline, but not all men are good disciplinarians.

This. They stereotype other people in a way that suits them. If the flamboyant and "nice" stereotypical homosexual doesn't suit their "argument", then they claim that homosexuals are Satan-worshiping sluts who chose to be that way and only want sex 24/7 with whatever men/women they can get.

[Alzael]

It's not really so much the need of a mother and a father as it is just a need for more than one parent. Just because it's very hard (though doable) for a single parent to both support a child financially and give them the proper attention that they require at home. It's usually too much for a single parent to handle both, though both are equally important to a childs development. Of course nothing says that both parents have to be of any particular gender.

As far as the religious side goes, yes, they don't really give a damn about the children. It's just "icky gays".

This. They stereotype other people in a way that suits them. If the flamboyant and "nice" stereotypical homosexual doesn't suit their "argument", then they claim that homosexuals are Satan-worshiping sluts who chose to be that way and only want sex 24/7 with whatever men/women they can get.

As an interesting aside, stereotypes have a tendency to change over periods of time. Many of the "sissy" behaviours we would associate with as being gay or girly now would have been considered manly if we were living a couple of hundred years ago.

[magicmiles]

Many of the "sissy" behaviours we would associate with as being gay or girly now would have been considered manly if we were living a couple of hundred years ago.

What's an example or two?

I'm not picking a fight, I just can't think of any.

[Traveler]

Bigots really piss me off. All that matters is that a child is loved. The gender of the parent(s) is irrelevant.

[One Above All]

What's an example or two?

I'm not picking a fight, I just can't think of any.

Dressing in clothes that are frillier than a wedding dress, for one. Also make-up. Lots and lots of make-up.

[Traveler]

What's an example or two?

I'm not picking a fight, I just can't think of any.

Wigs, lace, embroidery, the frock coat ...

http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/articles/victorian-articles/the-history-of-the-frock-coat.html

[Alzael]

What's an example or two?

I'm not picking a fight, I just can't think of any.

Well for example in Renaissance Europe if you were a man with wealth and power you could, and likely would, have sexual relations with both men and women. Part of this is because the concept of being homosexual is a relatively new invention of our modern society. Prior to about the late 1800's there was no societal distinction between hetero or homosexual. Also if you look at some of the attitudes and personality quirks from the time period. Watch any show set in the Victorian or Renaissance era and look at how the men behave. Those guys that you think are behaving really fruity and effeminate would actually have been the pinnacle of manhood in their time.

As Lucifer has noted, certain tastes in clothing and make up. Colours as well, Pink was actually once considered to be a very macho colour before the start of the 1930's. Also wearing dresses was not that uncommon for young boys as well as girls.

For example take a guess at which American historical figure this is.



Crying as well, once one of the truest signs of manliness was the ability to shed tears. Japanese samurai, medieval heroes, even Beowulf often cried like babies to show their manly struggles and how vulnerable they were.

As a final example there's the general idea of women's and men's work itself. This is something that really came about during the industrial revolution. Prior to that it took everything both parents had just to raise a child to maturity without him/her dying. So both parents had to be able to function in whatever role was necessary. Nowadays a husband who can cook or change a diaper is an oddity. Previously it was business as usual. Making a baby and keeping it healthy long enough to help out on the farm was such an important responsibility that rather than argue and bitch over who's job it was they just did it.

[magicmiles]

I wasn't thinking so much fashion, but that is true

[magicmiles]

I posted above at the exact same time as Azael, my comment was addressing the other responses.

And thankyou Alzael.

[Alzael]

\
And thankyou Alzael.

You're welcome.

The picture by the way is a child picture of this man.



Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Four time president of the United States and all around manly son of a bitch.

[Kimberly]

It's not really so much the need of a mother and a father as it is just a need for more than one parent. <cut>

I believe two Parent homes are easier than most; but there is always an exception to the rule. A two parent abusive home is not going to be as stable for a child as a one parent stable home.

I don't personally put much in to who the parents are (straight, gay, single, married, etc.) as much as I do how the parents work together to create a stable home. Unfortunately, most people don't see it that way. Some people think the abusive parents should stay together for the sake of the children. Or that same sex couples would be harmful to the child's psyche. Or that single parents should find a mate because they can't possibly do it alone.

It's all about the situation and context. There's no magic formula that says X situation is perfect for child raising.

Bigotry aside, I'm sure it could be argued that it's more natural for two same sex parents to raise a child. Anyone arguing that case would be correct, but that doesn't mean two people of the opposite sex aren't capable of it.

[Timtheskeptic]

It's not really so much the need of a mother and a father as it is just a need for more than one parent. <cut>

I believe two Parent homes are easier than most; but there is always an exception to the rule. A two parent abusive home is not going to be as stable for a child as a one parent stable home.

I don't personally put much in to who the parents are (straight, gay, single, married, etc.) as much as I do how the parents work together to create a stable home. Unfortunately, most people don't see it that way. Some people think the abusive parents should stay together for the sake of the children. Or that same sex couples would be harmful to the child's psyche. Or that single parents should find a mate because they can't possibly do it alone.

It's all about the situation and context. There's no magic formula that says X situation is perfect for child raising.

Bigotry aside, I'm sure it could be argued that it's more natural for two same sex parents to raise a child. Anyone arguing that case would be correct, but that doesn't mean two people of the opposite sex aren't capable of it.

That love is precisely what i think too. 

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

here's one thing I can never understand. When homophobic pastors or anti-gay politicians shout out about how every child needs a mother and a father, it makes me wonder why exactly does one need a mother and a father?

Many online and off line debates I take part in on the subject of homosexuality always end up in the anti homosexual side declaring that the "ideal" (it is always that word it seems) family has one father and one mother and that this is the "ideal" upbringing for a child.

I invariably "win" those debates and shut the other side up by listing the things that are "ideal" for a child's upbringing... things like education, security, love, understanding, food, safety and so on and asking which of the things on the list is somehow precluded from some parental configurations... single, straight, gay or whatever... and not others.

So far I have never had an answer to that challenge from the anti gay side. The closest thing to even an attempt... comical in how poor it was.... was one guy who tried to declare "breast feeding" should be on the list which was precluded gay parents. The moan of contempt from the women in the audience who had obviously bottle fed their babies made him realize, without me even having to say anything, how poor his attempt was.

The simple fact seems to be that there is nothing a child actually required for a healthy upbringing that is somehow the purview of any one parental configuration over another.

[magicmiles]

Maybe a thread exploring the natural difference between men and women are in order?

[One Above All]

Maybe a thread exploring the natural difference between men and women are in order?

Men have dicks, are taller, tend to live less and tend to become stronger than women. Women have boobs, a vagina, are shorter, have a tendency to accumulate fat and tend to live longer than men. Natural differences explored.

[magicmiles]

New topic here to avoid going off on a tangent:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22549.new.html#new

[Timtheskeptic]

Maybe a thread exploring the natural difference between men and women are in order?

Men have dicks, are taller, tend to live less and tend to become stronger than women. Women have boobs, a vagina, are shorter, have a tendency to accumulate fat and tend to live longer than men. Natural differences explored.

yep, that's pretty much the only differences. the basic functians of child rearing is by those who can raise a child, not by sexuality or gender.

[natlegend]

I was raised by a mother and an alcoholic chain-smoking physically and emotionally abusive father. The result? I find it *extremely* hard to form relationships with guys as I simply cannot bring myself to trust ANY men at all. Ever. It has ruined each and every one of my relationships even up to now, at the age of 37. There are days when I truly think I will spend the rest of my life alone.

So f**k those wankers who reckon you need both parents. F**k them to hell.

[Quesi]

I can't believe I never commented on this thread. 

I never cease to be awed at the responses I get when I identify as a single mom.  Looks of disdain or superiority are common.  Sometimes pity.  Occasional smirks.  When I either disclose, (or they figure out) that I'm an adoptive parent, I become a saint.  Admired.  I am clearly selfless. 

And it is all bullshit.  I'm a single woman who wanted to be a mom.  And I'm really committed to being a mom.  I love being a mom. 

Gay and lesbian couples, unlike many heterosexual couples, put a lot of thought and desire and effort into becoming parents.  Like me, gay and lesbian parents became parents because they really really really wanted to be parents.  And people who really want to be parents, are probably going to be more active, involved parents. 

[natlegend]

^^^ Very very true. Any toothless redneck can have a baby be, it planned or accidental. Here in Australia teenage girls actually get a *splutter* baby bonus of around $1000 for each child they bring into this world. That $1000 goes a long way to paying for a new playstation or tv. Sickening.

[Seppuku]

A straight couple can be really bad parents, but homosexual or single parents can't possibly be good parents?

I think the only kind of trauma a kid would face as the result of having homosexual parents is not the fact their parents are gay but the fact people are homophobic and a part of society suggest that it's wrong. Interestingly, we had this discussion briefly at my last job and the one lady said she believed that gay people should not have children as it'd be unfair on the child because they'd get bullied at school for it. I think the main problem in that respect is society needs to change their attitude. A good parent is one who cares and loves for their child and helps them develop well into adulthood. I'd rather 2 gay dads who loved me than a mother and father who didn't give a shit. I got bullied at school, so would gay parents have made much of a difference?

[Timtheskeptic]

A straight couple can be really bad parents, but homosexual or single parents can't possibly be good parents?

I think the only kind of trauma a kid would face as the result of having homosexual parents is not the fact their parents are gay but the fact people are homophobic and a part of society suggest that it's wrong. Interestingly, we had this discussion briefly at my last job and the one lady said she believed that gay people should not have children as it'd be unfair on the child because they'd get bullied at school for it. I think the main problem in that respect is society needs to change their attitude. A good parent is one who cares and loves for their child and helps them develop well into adulthood. I'd rather 2 gay dads who loved me than a mother and father who didn't give a shit. I got bullied at school, so would gay parents have made much of a difference?

I have heard some folks say that, but they have overlooked the real issue; it's the bullying and the discrimination that's the problem, not the gays and lesbians.  don't know why they can't see that. Maybe they know the real reason kids get picked on for having gay parents or for being gay themselves, but refuse to address the real issue at hand out of bigoted beliefs.

[Kimberly]

Don't "they" say kids learn the relationship dynamics from their parents? I may be wrong and it could all just be misinformation I've picked up a long they way. But could it be argued that a straight child raised by gay parents won't know how to build romantic relationship with an opposite sex partner? I've never really thought about it before reading this thread tonight. But they always tell us girls we date men like our fathers; because we watch our parents and learn how to build relationships off of our experiences watching our parents.... I'm really not all that knowledgeable on the topic as I've never been around gay parents, if anyone else has some insight and would like to share it that would be great. Thanks!

[Timtheskeptic]

Don't "they" say kids learn the relationship dynamics from their parents? I may be wrong and it could all just be misinformation I've picked up a long they way. But could it be argued that a straight child raised by gay parents won't know how to build romantic relationship with an opposite sex partner? I've never really thought about it before reading this thread tonight. But they always tell us girls we date men like our fathers; because we watch our parents and learn how to build relationships off of our experiences watching our parents.... I'm really not all that knowledgeable on the topic as I've never been around gay parents, if anyone else has some insight and would like to share it that would be great. Thanks!

There have been straight folks who have gay kids. The thing is, their feelings for someone of either the same sex or the opposite sex is not changeable. Just because their parents relationship might be different like straight parents with a gay teen in a relationship with another boy or gay parents with the straight teen with the opposite sex partner, doesn't mean they'lkl be stuck with, "How does this work?" Even straight kids with straight parents try to figure how they should date with the opposite sex.

What you described is a social expectation; the community, the church, the parents expects them to behave the way they want them to. Yes, when it comes to same sex attraction, they learn that they're not being welcomed, which hurts them pshycologically. If you want to know what's it like for gay parents to raise a straight kid, look up Depfox on youtube. They are the leffew family, two gay men raising two adopted children.

[Quesi]

This video went viral last year.  This young man doesn't look too damaged after growing up with two moms. 

[Kimberly]

That was a good video! We don't have many people in TN who share these types of experiencing publicly. It's still pretty backwards state to be honest. I wish I had more personal experience with the community so I could personally witness the dynamics. Watching or reading about it on TV or the internet just isn't really the same as real life experiences.

To clarify I didn't mean to imply any form of negativity. I sincerely wondered how the dynamics of it would come in to play as far as teaching children how to interact with a romantic partner. (And I don't mean how to have sex.) I don't know that there is a difference, I was just asking really.