Author Topic: Plain Jane Complain  (Read 7530 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2012, 04:49:26 PM »
SHe has made no valid points. She just posts the same diatribes over and over again. Endless repetition of the same nonsense does not make it valid.


Then prove her wrong. That is what you asked to do, it is what we have been waiting for you to do. Why is it taking so long?

Don't say she's wrong. Show it.
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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2012, 04:53:55 PM »
Point out where I've treated either of them like dirt. I've been firm and have engaged their arguments with depth and with a lot of scrutiny,  but I have not treated them badly. At the most I've employed sarcasm to illustrate a point and that doesn't happen too frequently for me, nor have I disrespected them as people for it. Heck, when I wrongly assumed Jst meant something I apologised for getting it wrong. The only karma they've received from me has been positive.
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Don't say she's wrong. Show it.

Simple principle writers use to engage their reading:

Show don't tell. Makes it a lot more believable.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 04:59:17 PM by Seppuku »
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2012, 09:02:09 PM »
See reply number 11 in this thread. I very gently pointed out some of her most egregious errors and she responded with another verbose, incoherent tirade about things that have nothing to do with anything. I will not be drawn into such nonsense.

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2012, 04:37:01 AM »
Okay,

Point #1. You think because you've 'noted' something that your understanding is the correct one. But by 'noting' you're only telling us. You're not showing us that your understanding is the correct one. This is what Velkyn was trying to point out. You mentioned school and teaching to draw a comparison, well, at school whenever we wrote an essay we had to use the method of: Point, Evidence, Explain. But you're mostly using 'point'. I could write an essay just making point after point at school, but score low marks because I've not backed up any of my findings.

Point #2. Seems like you might be saying RCC isn't the only right interpretation. I'll need some clarification on that one (maybe it's because I've only just woken up?)

Point #3. Arguing from semantics. Kind of contradicts point #1. Point #1 says by noting it you've shown that your understanding is the correct one but now you're saying that it only seems that it's the correct one. Also, on the point of semantics, you've told me that I treat Magicmiles like dirt, you used the pronoun 'you', so regardless of whether it's a plural or singular, it still applies to me. I would like you to show me when I've done this.

Point #4. Claims you've made. What about historical evidence for Jesus is real? Alzael challenged you on this one. You refused the challenge and when he picked you up on it you just said, "^fail". Also you've made claims about the bible and claimed other people's understanding of the bible, but you've yet to show us exactly why other interpretations are wrong and yours is right. You've only really told us that it's so. When people talk about the magic decoder ring they're talking about possessing the ultimate means of understanding of the bible. Many a Christian believe they have this understanding and none have yet to convince us that their's has any kind of special weight. Our understanding of the bible derives from reading it and from what different Christians throw at us.

Point #5. Velkyn is pointing to the claims of the bible not claims of your own.


Conclusion: You haven't done a top job in show people they're wrong. Point #1 and #3 contradict each other. Where you have made claims you've not backed them up. You've also yet to show us that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one. Not only that but you just feel the need to insult people and make all sorts of rude remarks to people and you've disrespected and insulted pretty much the entire forum bar its theists - it's almost as though you're baiting them to make crude remarks about you. Being 'wrong' in your eyes doesn't merit that kind of behaviour. People retaliated, yes, but they're not going to stand for that kind of behaviour.
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2012, 07:16:49 AM »
You are trying to save Velkyn. It can't be done. Every one of her posts is a rant that flits from one subject to another incoherently and with absolutely no regard for the post she is supposedly responding to. You do her no favors by not reining her in.

Okay,
Point #1. You think because you've 'noted' something that your understanding is the correct one. But by 'noting' you're only telling us. You're not showing us that your understanding is the correct one.


Why not ask Velkyn to "show us" that her understanding is the correct one? That kills two birds with one stone, since we both agree on the meaning of the parable. She is simply wrong in saying that Jesus is the one who wants everyone slain in front of him. Otherwise, he wouldn't talk about a "king". He would use the pronoun, "I".

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Point #2. Seems like you might be saying RCC isn't the only right interpretation. I'll need some clarification on that one (maybe it's because I've only just woken up?).
I haven't said anything at all about it. She dreamed that one up just as she dreamed up all her accusations.

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Point #4. Claims you've made. What about historical evidence for Jesus is real? Alzael challenged you on this one. You refused the challenge and when he picked you up on it you just said, "^fail".
Wrong again! He demanded that I leave the Bible out of it. That is a ridiculous demand and one that no historian or biblical scholar would put up with for a second. In fact, it is down right ignorant. Sorry. You all only accept plain talk from yourselves. But reality is reality.

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Also you've made claims about the bible and claimed other people's understanding of the bible, but you've yet to show us exactly why other interpretations are wrong and yours is right.
You have available to you the same sources I have. The difference is, you get your information from atheist blogs, fine scholarly works like the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and authors who mainly don't know what they are talking about. Dawkins springs to mind as does the late Christopher Hitchens. At least Hitchens had the excuse that he was probably drunk when he wrote his magnum opus. There is no way to excuse Dawkins.

The US Constitution was written in modern English and adopted a mere 223 years ago. Yet how many books have been written about it that do not always agree and offer alternate readings based on more or less good, sound reasoning? Why do you have to go to law school to study it formally? Why are there books, sometimes in multiple volumes, discussing just one of the 10 amendments? Isn't the language plain and the intent obvious? If a document so close to us in time isn't obvious, why would a work written over 3000 years ago (in its earliest parts), in a completely different culture and in a completely different language be transparent to us?

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When people talk about the magic decoder ring they're talking about possessing the ultimate means of understanding of the bible.
Who has claimed this? The "magic decoder" ring is fatuous beyone belief. It is a way of shutting down conversation and keeping your minds tightly closed. When someone offers an interpretation of Romeo and Juliet does he have a magic decoder ring? Or does his interpretation accord more or less well with the facts of the story, its historical position, etc. A casual reader is less likely to offer a nuanced interpretation than a great scholar of Shakespeare. Interpretation of texts occur along a continuum from those offered by the well-meaning ignorant, to those very learned interpretations that increase our understanding and enjoyment of Shakespeare. The same is true for every text. The Bible is a text.
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Many a Christian believe they have this understanding and none have yet to convince us that their's has any kind of special weight. Our understanding of the bible derives from reading it and from what different Christians throw at us.
Your understanding is based on quicksand. If you are interested in some aspect or another, consult the literature.

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Where you have made claims you've not backed them up. You've also yet to show us that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one.
I have not claimed that my interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. Only that what little I have addressed is based in sound scholarship. Your accusation of "not backing up claims" is preposterous since it means justifying to your satisfaction any point on which you disagree with me. Since that cannot happen, I can't be bothered.
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It only that but you just feel the need to insult people and make all sorts of rude remarks to people and you've disrespected and insulted pretty much the entire forum bar its theists
That is because you make ignorant, belligerent statements about matters you know very little about. When challenged, you get very ugly. I have no patience at all with intellectual dishonesty. None. I won't stand for people telling me I don't know what I am talking about when I address matters I have been studying for 30 years. I have no patience with people asking questions that I would have to write a book to answer. There is a balance that needs to be achieved.


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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2012, 08:36:02 AM »
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Why not ask Velkyn to "show us" that her understanding is the correct one? That kills two birds with one stone, since we both agree on the meaning of the parable. She is simply wrong in saying that Jesus is the one who wants everyone slain in front of him. Otherwise, he wouldn't talk about a "king". He would use the pronoun, "I".

My analysis. We can't ascertain which version is right. But if you wish to derive any factual statements from it, you'll need to ascertain whether they are facts.

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I haven't said anything at all about it. She dreamed that one up just as she dreamed up all her accusations.

I'll have to read back on the rest of the thread.

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Wrong again! He demanded that I leave the Bible out of it. That is a ridiculous demand and one that no historian or biblical scholar would put up with for a second. In fact, it is down right ignorant. Sorry. You all only accept plain talk from yourselves. But reality is reality.

If you didn't refuse to do it, then what did you do? I merely commented on your actions and not your reasons why. I can't speak on behalf of him, but I suspect he wanted to leave the bible out of it because he want you to use other sources. Good historians don't rely on a single source.

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You have available to you the same sources I have. The difference is, you get your information from atheist blogs, fine scholarly works like the Skeptics Annotated Bible, and authors who mainly don't know what they are talking about.

And Christians spouting the bible back at us and when I use a bible quote, I read the whole chapter and try to understand the context. There are Christians that also do this, yet so many seem to disagree on the meaning. 38,000+ sects can't be right on the exact meaning of the bible. I've had Christians use a whole manner of dark parts of the bible to back up their bigoted views. I've even challenged them with the New Testament, but what I get thrown back at me is teachings where Jesus tells them to listen to the Old Testament and follow its laws. It's not mere 'atheist' interpretations. Heck the Phelps family are very knowledgeable of the bible's contents and have studied it hard and are actually a well educated and well schooled bunch and any claim you make about Jesus and the bible they will be able to back up their view with what the bible says. And the WBC are nuts. Many of us are also ex-Christians who have had the bible pumped into their brain and had these teachings directly taught to them by Christians who claim authority on the bible or have studied it. I wouldn't assume where we get all of our information from.

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Who has claimed this? The "magic decoder" ring is fatuous beyone belief. It is a way of shutting down conversation and keeping your minds tightly closed. When someone offers an interpretation of Romeo and Juliet does he have a magic decoder ring? Or does his interpretation accord more or less well with the facts of the story, its historical position, etc. A casual reader is less likely to offer a nuanced interpretation than a great scholar of Shakespeare. Interpretation of texts occur along a continuum from those offered by the well-meaning ignorant, to those very learned interpretations that increase our understanding and enjoyment of Shakespeare. The same is true for every text. The Bible is a text.

The magic decoder ring argument exists because people have their individual claims about the bible but cannot suggest exactly why their's is right and why others are wrong. With Romeo and Juliet it is treated as fiction and people's interpretations are entirely ficticious and it's how they personally read the text. But it may not be at all what the original author intended it. For example, for an English literature class Ian McEwan's son had to write an essay on one of his dad's novels and his dad helped him, but the teacher gave him a low mark and the teacher offered a different interpretation of what McEwan wrote. We don't have the liberty of asking Shakespeare or even the author of the Bible (or God himself) what is actually meant. I've even had people give different interpretations I hadn't even considered when trying to get feedback on my own writing. Another case, Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses was interpreted by Islamic Extremists as being anti-Islamist and it got him into a lot of trouble, even though his novel isn't about Islam. Heck in an English Literature exam I got positive marks for taking quotes from Shakespeare's Othello and managed to create an interpretation of the play where Iago is gay for Othello.

But we're talking about novels, plays and other forms of fiction. Something that's entirely fictional and something writers can even leave up to the interpretation of the reader.

The Bible on the other hand is the base text of a religion and for many something of historical significance - not in that it's an ancient novel, but in it actually bearing witness to historical events. Reading historical sources isn't up to personal interpretation like when reading a novel. There's a level of professional interpretation and generally a professional interpretation derives from what can be known about the time and checking information with multiple sources and even having archeological evidence. One thing we learned studying history at school is to NOT use more than one source to gather evidence and our History exams were based on deriving information from multiple sources to try and understand what we can take from them to build up an account of what happened. This is basic stuff.

It also gives commandments to Christians (of which they follow, usually down the interpretation they use) and teaches them that there is without a shadow of a doubt, a God. If it was all personal interpretation of a novel, then how on earth could you say that me or Velkyn or somebody else are wrong? You've got to be basing that on some concrete about your understanding of the bible, as opposed to something that 'seems' that way otherwise, it'd only seem that we're wrong.

Though, if you wish to tell us that the bible is just a peice of fiction and should not be taken as seriously as many in the world do then we can give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

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That is because you make ignorant, belligerent statements about matters you know very little about. When challenged, you get very ugly.

You know, this is actually how we see your actions. We didn't start by getting ugly, but you did start dishing out some quite insulting comments. I only found people were getting ugly when YOU were insulting them or making snide remarks.

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None. I won't stand for people telling me I don't know what I am talking about when I address matters I have been studying for 30 years.

And yet you wish to do the same to members of this forum.

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I have no patience with people asking questions that I would have to write a book to answer. There is a balance that needs to be achieved.

Then you can do one (or all) of the following things:

-> If there's books already on the subject. Point to them, perhaps try to summarise them, but explain that you're unable to give a simple answer. We've had people ask us questions about the theory of evolution that requires a lot of information for them to understand. We try to keep it simple and summarise, but make clear it is a big science and there are sources they can visit.

-> Understand that because of the amount of work it'd take you that you're not going to convince anybody that you're right. So when people ask for back up or questions that'd require a lot of work on your behalf. Explain this and tell them that you will back down because you will be unable to answer those questions because of it

-> Accept that until you are able to prove to people that other people are wrong that their argument  is not invalid and they are not 'idiots' or a whole number of insulting things. They're not being willfully ignorant, they just don't possess this information that you do (and are unwilling to provide because of the time you feel you'd have to take giving it), but also, accept that they may possess information or knwoledge that you do not and be open minded to the possibility that you may be wrong. A discussion is a two way thing, if you expect other people to be open minded about your arguments, you must be open minded yourself. You might not see it, but if people are shown a strong enough case for the existence of God, they will listen - they just need the evidence to back it up.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2012, 09:21:37 AM »
Karma is an expression of one's opinion. My opinion of you and several others here is not high. Strive for better.
Okay, so, you don't have a good opinion of several of the people here (which is about a thousand percent understatement if I've ever heard one).  I certainly hope that you've realized that the same is true of others towards you.  Yet you don't seem to have given any real consideration to those opinions - you certainly haven't changed your behavior in any meaningful fashion.  So why do you think that anyone here would have any reason to give any consideration regarding your opinion of them?

It cuts both ways, you know.  If you want people to pay heed to your statements, you have to be willing to pay heed to their statements.  So far, you don't really seem to be doing that.  What you seem to be doing instead is retaliating against people who don't take your position and beliefs as seriously as you take them.  And while that's your business, I can't see it being effective at all in a discussion forum such as this.  You might want to consider that you aren't exactly doing your own position any favors by responding in kind.  Don't let your temper dictate your actions.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2012, 09:28:54 AM »
SHe has made no valid points. She just posts the same diatribes over and over again. Endless repetition of the same nonsense does not make it valid.

Insert picture of mirror here.

Yes Velkyn can be OTT acerbic and yes she can punch below the belt. None the less does the crude and abusive languge invalidate the following statement:

"Hey you numbskull imbecile; fucking two plus fucking two equals fucking four"


Yes it is crude and uncivilized, however it is still quite correct. As far as I am concerned, when you assert that Christianity is actually true; you are asserting two plus two does not equal four.

 



« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:33:55 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2012, 09:42:46 AM »
See reply number 11 in this thread. I very gently pointed out some of her most egregious errors and she responded with another verbose, incoherent tirade about things that have nothing to do with anything. I will not be drawn into such nonsense.

That doesn't seem to be a problem. You seem perfectly capable of forming your own nonsense.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2012, 12:14:35 PM »
You are trying to save Velkyn. It can't be done. Every one of her posts is a rant that flits from one subject to another incoherently and with absolutely no regard for the post she is supposedly responding to. You do her no favors by not reining her in.
More fun baseless claims by Jane.  Jane, you seem unfamiliar with how discussions go. You make claims, I refute them.  I have responded to your posts and have used your own quotes within those post so you kow what I am responding too.  Thus, your claims that my posts are “rants” and that they “flit from one subject to another incoherently” are false.  It’s amusing how you try to rewrite history too, “gentle” Jane. But alas in a written medium, that doesn’t work out too well for you.
 
Jane, I have shown the reasoning behind my understanding.  You are expected to refute that, not just claim I’m wrong.  This is how discussions go.  You also seem to show an amazing ignorance about parables.  A parable is symbolic, and one thing represents another.  I believe you did agree that the king in the parable of the ten minas was Jesus, correct?  If so, it is no strange thing for JC to be telling the story in third person since he is trying to convey the point of the story, his resurrection and return and using the fictional figures of a king to represent himself.  Since this seems hard for you, I’ll post the entire parable.
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Luke 19: 11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.
Here is the reason why JC’s telling the story. He wants to remove the idea that the kingdom was going to appear immediately.
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12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’
like other similar parables, keep the faith until I return.
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14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’
those who did not accept JC as messiah.
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15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.
JC died and resurrected and returned.  Then looks at the faithful.
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16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’
17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’
18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’
19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’
20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’
22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’
  Then looks at the faithful
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24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’
25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”
If the king is JC, then JC is saying “kill them in front of me.”.  IF the king isn’t JC, then who is he and what is the purpose of this parable?

 Jane, you have called those who don’t agree with the RCC “heretics”. You have said that those who don’t agree with you are wrong, for instance about free will.

The bible is not a historical document. It has nothing to support its claims of the essential events in the bible and it gets historical events wrong.    If you wish to claim so, then the Iliad, the Odessey, etc become historical documents. Are you willing to agree?   And you repeat the same baseless nonsense, your appeal to authority that “no historian or biblical scholar would put up with for a second.”  That is simply untrue at least for the historians and unbiased biblical scholars.

You also lie when attempting to claim that atheists do not look at the same sources you have.  I have and I have found them wanting for substantial reasons.  You seem to be surprised and offended that not everyone agrees with you.

You seem to forget that the US constitution was written by men and no other claims have been made about it.  Your bible claims to have been directly affected by a god.  Quite a difference.  A book written by ignorant ill-educated men is one thing to excuse.  This s what the bible is and can be ignored as many atheists do, only good as a cultural artifact.  But Christians don’t believe it’s just that.  They claim that, at least the parts they like are from a omnipotent, omniscient, omnisbenevolent god.  And that doesn’t hold up with the evidence we have e.g. the bible itself.   

You have the ostensible “magic decoder ring” and your church as used the same thing.  You make claims of ultimate truth when you have no more evidence than those “heretics” you claim are out there.  You claim to have “nuanced interpretations” and so does everyone else.  And one more time! you have decided that only you have the right interpretation.
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Your understanding is based on quicksand. If you are interested in some aspect or another, consult the literature.
  Aka your understanding is “wrong”.  Which is amusing since you bely your next claim doing this so well. 
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I have not claimed that my interpretation of the Bible is the correct one. Only that what little I have addressed is based in sound scholarship. Your accusation of "not backing up claims" is preposterous since it means justifying to your satisfaction any point on which you disagree with me. Since that cannot happen, I can't be bothered.
  And you have yet to provide this supposed “sound scholarship”.  You may think it so but I do not and I have shown exactly why.  You have chosen to ignore that.   
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That is because you make ignorant, belligerent statements about matters you know very little about. When challenged, you get very ugly. I have no patience at all with intellectual dishonesty. None. I won't stand for people telling me I don't know what I am talking about when I address matters I have been studying for 30 years. I have no patience with people asking questions that I would have to write a book to answer. There is a balance that needs to be achieved.
  Jane, where has anyone been as ugly as you have accusing people of being drunks when they wrote something? You have claimed again(!) that we know “very little” about that which you want to claim to be right in.  We disagree with you and we show the evidence that shows that you are mistaken in your claims of knowledge.  You have as of yet failed to support your statements with evidence.

I’m sorry you think you don’t have to stand for anyone telling you that you are wrong.   You can ignore it, but that will not change the evidence I have against you and your claims. Now you claim you’ve been studying for “30 years” and now it would take you a book to answer the questions put to you.  These are the usual questionable claims of what amounts to “I studied the same wrong thing, that makes it right” a fallacy in and of itself and now it seems the usual excuse that you can’t possible tell us how wrong we are, so we just have to take your word for it, again providing no evidence.   
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2012, 01:03:18 PM »
Yes Velkyn can be OTT acerbic and yes she can punch below the belt
No, she isn't acerbic. She is inchoherent, poorly informed, unpleasant, and absolutely unwilling to discuss anything.
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As far as I am concerned, when you assert that Christianity is actually true; you are asserting two plus two does not equal four.
Except, of course, that I have asserted no such thing. So far, I have tried to correct errors of fact. Unfortunately, that goes against what too many of you need to believe so it is quite hopeless.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 01:05:45 PM by Plain Jane »

Offline HAL

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2012, 01:18:29 PM »
So far, I have tried to correct errors of fact. Unfortunately, that goes against what too many of you need to believe so it is quite hopeless.

What do you think too many of us need, to believe in your deity Jane? Hopeless for you, or hopeless for your deity? I wouldn't say it's hopeless for your deity. Perhaps if it appeared and had a talk with me here in my house, I could be convinced. He knows where I live. But it could be an alien too. I'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2012, 01:30:22 PM »
plain Jane Complain
insane in the membrane
rain stain explain
insane in the membrane
grain lane terrain
insane in the membrane
drain the main vein
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2012, 01:31:28 PM »
No, she isn't acerbic. She is inchoherent, poorly informed, unpleasant, and absolutely unwilling to discuss anything.
and more unsupported claims.  You seem to think that you may make such accusations because you don't like what I have to say.  Please do show where I'm "poorly informed" Jane, rather than simply disagreeing with you and having evidence to support my disagreement.  And unwilling to discuss things?  Please do explain that accusation when I have addressed your posts and have asked for you to support your claims, to refute my points, etc, aka to participate in a discussion.  As for incoherent, evidence for that too.  I am sure that you find me unpleasant, and others too, when we ask you to take responsiblity for your actions.
Quote
Except, of course, that I have asserted no such thing. So far, I have tried to correct errors of fact. Unfortunately, that goes against what too many of you need to believe so it is quite hopeless.
  What facts are these that you know and no others do?   You again repeat the nonsense that atheists are not willing to consider evidence, claiming that we need to believe something.  I am and I know others are.  It is up to you to provide what you claim to be able to. 
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2012, 01:43:18 PM »
No, she isn't acerbic. She is inchoherent, poorly informed, unpleasant, and absolutely unwilling to discuss anything.
First off, she is actually acerbic (acid-tongued).  But as far as your accusations go, she is quite coherent, well-informed, and quite willing to discuss things with people willing to listen.  Which you don't seem to be.  You certainly haven't acknowledged any of my posts, and I haven't been rude in them. 

Quote from: Plain Jane
Except, of course, that I have asserted no such thing. So far, I have tried to correct errors of fact. Unfortunately, that goes against what too many of you need to believe so it is quite hopeless.
What, you expected a bunch of skeptical atheists to just accept your assertions without argument?  Just like that?  From what I saw, it took you less than a day to go from trying to "correct errors of fact" to being just plain snarky overall.  So naturally, it's their fault for "needing to believe" something else, rather than anything to do with your impatientience and just plain rudeness.  You do realize this business of accusing other people of "needing to believe" something (counter, of course, to what you believe) is one of the last refuges of someone who's lost an argument and knows it, right?  It's nothing more than an excuse, and not a very good one.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2012, 01:49:52 PM »
As far as I am concerned, when you assert that Christianity is actually true; you are asserting two plus two does not equal four.
Except, of course, that I have asserted no such thing.

I said true, not literal. and Oh really????????????:

Quote
Oh, I think I have a vague notion or two of how Jesus fulfilled the law. That is what the whole passage is about

Jesus ends his sermon by reminding his listeners that they are to love their enemies and to be perfect as God is perfect. This is the law that will never pass away and that Jesus fulfilled.

Archaeology has been a constant source of supporting evidence for what the Bible says.

I didn't say that the Bible is not divinely inspired-- it is. But that means that God worked through the authors

 We (Catholics) value the Old Testament for its many insights into how God has worked in human history but recognize that it is, in the words of the Catechism, imperfect and partial.


and we can stop from there. I've seen that you've used the "some scholars say" escape clause in most of what you've written, and people seem to overlook that, that much is true. It is a great rhetorical gambit. However, you, as a Catholic do assert that Christianity is essentially true; there was a Christ that was part of God that needed to be sacrificed to that same god for this god's creations(people) to be forgiven for not living up to this god's standard, which this god knew they were going to do(omnicience)

That is saying two plus two does not equal four.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2012, 04:14:52 PM »
Surely you jest! How would I find them? For every one post I have written, I have had 4-8 offensive, off-topic posts in return. If you have questions, please ask them but before you do, please understand this. Since apparently neither logical arguments nor historical ones carry any weight here, I will not offer "evidence" for God. I will not apologize for my beliefs. I will not apologize for being very well educated in literature and foreign languages and knowing the difference between a metaphor and a simile;  for knowing the difference between hyperbole and a joke. That is just the nature of reality and just like everyone else, you must accept reality.
(emphasis added)
Plain Jane, I will continue to address you civilly, as I think most of the posters here have done. When I can no longer do that, I will stop talking to you, because I won't be drawn into childish on-line flaming.

Most of us also know what metaphors, similes, allegories and parables are. What is not clear is what each of them means in the context of a work--whether the bible, the Quran, or the Hindu Gita-- that is supposed to show that supernatural beings and events are reality. Especially when the events and beings show no sign of actually existing outside the imagination. Those religions have hundreds of scholars who claim to understand what those works mean. And the scholars do not agree.

What does it mean when the bible, for example,  reports that Jesus said you must give away your belongings and follow him? Depends on who you ask, and since every Christian group says their interpretation is correct, there seems to be no coherent, consistent way to judge which is right. If the bible is really as important as Christians say it is, it is vital to get the correct interpretation.

There are nuns and monks who take that passage completely literally, and live in abject poverty in service to Hippie Jesus. There are Amish and communist Broderhof groups who take the passage in context of other things in the bible; they just live simply and give away excess wealth to honor Moderation Jesus. There are multi-millionaire megachurch preachers and prosperity gospel adherents who ignore that passage, or say it is a metaphor. They say that Right Wing Jesus wants you to be a filthy rich capitalist.

Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists also have scriptures that [seem to] advocate poverty. And other scriptures that [seem to]support the accumulation of wealth. They can't all be right.

My point is this. If there was concrete, verifiable evidence (yes, there's that evil word again) that one religion was true, and that evidence made sense to everyone regardless of culture, there would only be one religion. You would not need apologia, or convoluted logical arguments about why this or that historical text was true.

Maybe some people would still decide not to worship its gods or whatever, but everyone would acknowledge that the evidence supported their existence. Just like everyone can acknowledge the existence of the sun, even though not everyone worships it. No religious belief has ever produced that evidence. If there was a real god, and that god wanted humans to know it existed, that evidence would be pretty easy to come by. It would not require degrees in several arcane fields to decipher.

I have given a few examples of what that evidence might be, like copies of the magic book found on different continents aleady in the local languages. But I don't understand why a god witht he power to create the entire planet would need a book to communicate with people in the first place. We are only humans and we are inventing better ways of communicating all the time.

Finally, here is how you find my postings: click on my bolded name, nogodsforme. Locate the place where it says "Posts". Click on that. Read what I wrote.[1]
 1. For someone who keeps bragging about being well-educated and an expert on how to do detailed research, I think it would be rather easy to find what one person wrote a few days ago on this website.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2012, 05:50:46 PM »
What do Christians agree on? Hint: Look at the Nicene Creed. Now, tell me how disagreements about whether Jesus meant to give away all one's belongings or not, impact the core beliefs of Christianity? Moreover, people who don't know what he means are usually the people who cherry pick. If they read the whole Gospel (really all of them) and thought about what they were reading carefully, there would be far fewer incompatible interpretations. Beyond that, as every student of literature knows, most texts have multiple layers of meaning. Part of the sheer joy of reading is to discover these layers and let them teach us.[1]
 1. I don't take kindly to being told to wade through your posts to find something, unnamed, that you want answered. I waste too much time here as it is. I am certainly not going to spend time looking at your posts.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:53:35 PM by Plain Jane »

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2012, 01:25:59 AM »
Jane:  Is there some reason you're not acknowledging my posts?  I haven't insulted you, nor am I being rude to you.  I'm simply bringing up problems that I'm seeing in the points that you're making.  Yet you either haven't noticed them or you have and are simply not responding to them.  For someone who complained about getting four to eight mean-spirited responses for every reasonable one, you sure don't seem to be looking very hard for reasonable responses.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2012, 07:25:24 AM »
I can't be bothered to answer all posts. Not one of you has anything to offer but complaints about my snark, insults etc. Your utter blindness to the way you all conduct yourselves is hilarious. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. I push back. All your posts have been, so far as I can recall, complaints about the way I express myself. I have no interest in defending that. If you have a question ask it.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2012, 07:49:59 AM »
What do Christians agree on? Hint: Look at the Nicene Creed. Now, tell me how disagreements about whether Jesus meant to give away all one's belongings or not, impact the core beliefs of Christianity? Moreover, people who don't know what he means are usually the people who cherry pick. If they read the whole Gospel (really all of them) and thought about what they were reading carefully, there would be far fewer incompatible interpretations. Beyond that, as every student of literature knows, most texts have multiple layers of meaning. Part of the sheer joy of reading is to discover these layers and let them teach us.[1]
 1. I don't take kindly to being told to wade through your posts to find something, unnamed, that you want answered. I waste too much time here as it is. I am certainly not going to spend time looking at your posts.

Fine lets take a look at the Nicene Creed(which does not cover all Christians, but does cover all Orthodox Catholics):

Quote
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

Since it is relatively short, and from one author pretty much mean it isn't going to have self contradictions(except for the logical self contradictions which it has several). But what do we have here:

A Believe that a deity created everything
That deity is Omnipowerful
That Deity had a child
The Child was part of the Deity
That Child came to earth from a celestial relm
And was born of a virgin
That Deity Child was executed in order to avert the Deities wrath
then was brought back to life
He rules over us all
and will Judge us in the end times, forever.
This Deity has spoken through the elder wise men
And the institution telling you this has been appointed by that deity
and we will come back to life



Now lets call this deity Ugabuga, his son King Agga, the execution was being thrown in a volcano, and the wise men Shamans. Why would we accept your creed, and not the one of the Shamanic Tradition?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 09:03:48 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2012, 08:19:00 AM »
Translation: I'm right, you're wrong, i ain't listening!! Why can't you just shut up and just accept that i'm the victor!? Waaaaa! You just refuse to just believe whatever i tell you! I'm gonna pout and be a complete hypocrite! I'm right you're wrong! All your posts are just noise to me because i refuse to listen! I'm never going to learn anything from you because i'm right and you're wrong!

That Jane, is what you sound like.

"Rant of no value. Thoughtless and emotional."

That Jane, is precisely what i was talking about.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:22:59 AM by Timtheskeptic »
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2012, 08:22:59 AM »
What do Christians agree on? Hint: Look at the Nicene Creed. Now, tell me how disagreements about whether Jesus meant to give away all one's belongings or not, impact the core beliefs of Christianity? Moreover, people who don't know what he means are usually the people who cherry pick. If they read the whole Gospel (really all of them) and thought about what they were reading carefully, there would be far fewer incompatible interpretations. Beyond that, as every student of literature knows, most texts have multiple layers of meaning. Part of the sheer joy of reading is to discover these layers and let them teach us.[1]
 1. I don't take kindly to being told to wade through your posts to find something, unnamed, that you want answered. I waste too much time here as it is. I am certainly not going to spend time looking at your posts.

Fine lets take a look at the Nicene Creed(which does not cover all Christians, but does cover all Orthodox Catholics):
Wrong. Catholics are the majority of the world's Christians. Not by a little but by a lot. Most of the Protestant denominations are on board with the creed. It does express the core beliefs that define a Christian. Anyone who does not assent to the creed belongs to a body that has separated itself from the historic Christian community.


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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2012, 08:44:27 AM »
He's not wrong. He said

Quote
(which does not cover all Christians, but does cover all Orthodox Catholics):

You've just said Catholics are the majority and most of the protestant denominations are on board.

This leaves a gap of Christians that are not covered therefore not all Christians are cover. Therefore his statement is not wrong.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2012, 08:51:34 AM »

Fine lets take a look at the Nicene Creed(which does not cover all Christians, but does cover all Orthodox Catholics):
Wrong. Catholics are the majority of the world's Christians. Not by a little but by a lot. Most of the Protestant denominations are on board with the creed. It does express the core beliefs that define a Christian. Anyone who does not assent to the creed belongs to a body that has separated itself from the historic Christian community.

First you quibble at something I said doesn't cover ALL, so first you're complaint is incorrect in the first place, but what about addressing the main point of the post?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2012, 08:56:56 AM »
I can't be bothered to answer all posts. Not one of you has anything to offer but complaints about my snark, insults etc. Your utter blindness to the way you all conduct yourselves is hilarious. If you can't take it, don't dish it out. I push back. All your posts have been, so far as I can recall, complaints about the way I express myself. I have no interest in defending that. If you have a question ask it.
Naturally.  Why bother trying to defend an attitude you know is completely indefensible?  Instead, just blow off any and all comments about it and accuse everyone else of being the problem.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2012, 08:59:57 AM »
Catholics are the majority of the world's Christians. Not by a little but by a lot.

Well, about 55-60% of Christians are Catholics, so yes that's a majority, but I wouldn't necessarily say "by a lot" - but that's by the by.


Perhaps more importantly though, the creed says "We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" - so clearly 40-45% of Christians have a pretty major disagreement there.

You asked "tell me how disagreements about whether Jesus meant to give away all one's belongings or not, impact the core beliefs of Christianity?" - and while I can see where you are coming from, I think that an important point to consider is that "the devil is in the detail" - if you'll pardon the expression!

What I mean by that is that sure - all Christians may believe that Jesus gives salvation.  But if there is disagreement about exactly what one needs to do to obtain that salvation, can we really say that all Christians DO believe the same thing? 

To put it another way.....if the belongings issue that you referenced is completely irrelevant, then why would Christ have said it in the first place?  Conversely, if it is a vital part of the faith, then does that not then mean that those who get it wrong really ARE a different religion to those who get it right?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2012, 09:00:33 AM »
Pathetic mortal...

Plain Jane, I walk the Earth. I killed your god. He begged for his life as I took Michael's sword and struck him down.
You will burn in the fires of Hell once I take control of the Earth. I've tricked you all into thinking that the church is fighting against me, and so you have become the architects of your own demise. The Pope is my tool. Everything you hold dear just takes you one step closer to destruction. Creationism, homophobia, xenophobia... They're all My creations.

Congrats, Plain Jane. You're officially on My team.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Plain Jane Complain
« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2012, 09:56:00 AM »
All your posts have been, so far as I can recall, complaints about the way I express myself.
In fairness, some have been about your not expressing yourself - i.e. answering questions. Also, you often seem to express yourself by bald statements or erroneous claims about what God said and when and where he said it.


Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”