Author Topic: Dark Matter - Proof?  (Read 853 times)

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Offline inveni0

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Dark Matter - Proof?
« on: April 12, 2012, 02:28:39 PM »
Creation.  Oh, boy.  What a topic, right?  Can you believe that we even have this discussion anymore?  Forget that we can look 14 billion years into the past.  Forget that there is a whole universe out there, swirling with other planets, stars, and moons.  There has always been some crazy answer--some made up explanation--for how the universe can't really be as old as it is.  Maybe light is instantaneous?  Who knows.  Make it up, and it'll fly with the creationists.

But there's this pesky little thing now--you've heard of it--called Dark Matter.  It's a glue that interacts with nothing (at least nothing with which we're familiar) but can hold together entire galaxies of stars by its gravity alone.  The only way we can see Dark Matter is by looking for that gravity, which we find with gravitational lensing.  And the presence of Dark Matter has got me thinking:

Why did God create it?

Assuming there IS a God, why would he create Dark Matter?  He sent his son to Earth to die for people that wouldn't even discover Dark Matter for 2000 years.  We didn't even discover the marvel of planets and galaxies until we create telescopes.  So God clearly didn't create these things for us to marvel, because the Bible specifically says not to seek knowledge of contradictions (1 Timothy 6:20-21).  That's what Science is.  One giant contradiction to the Bible.

But let's pretend that galaxies WERE created for man's marvel--to show the power of God...  Why Dark Matter?  Couldn't gravity have been made a little stronger?  Or stars a little larger?  I mean, while we're creating, why not just make everything work by design?  Why do we need this invisible force of gravity?  If there was a God and Genesis is true, then the solar system wouldn't need to exist within a galaxy at all.  If we don't need galaxies, then we don't need Dark Matter.

But there it is.  Dark Matter.  The invisible.

For me, Dark Matter SCREAMS universal evolution.  Galactic evolution.  Without it, solar systems (this one in particular) may never coalesce.  The universe would have exploded into nothing but a big ball of gas that would have never clustered into anything.  But instead, it works as a catalyst.  Like the rest of nature, it is its own creator.

Anyhow, that's my take.  Thoughts?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Dark Matter - Proof?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 03:55:54 PM »
I'd be careful if I were dark matter.  Especially if I were wearing a hoodie.
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Offline Dynamic

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Re: Dark Matter - Proof?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 05:18:48 PM »
Seems legit. Never heard too much about dark matter, only in the Smithsonian. However, I think creationists will just pass this over and be ignorant of Dark Matter.
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Dark Matter - Proof?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2012, 02:42:01 PM »
Seems legit. Never heard too much about dark matter, only in the Smithsonian. However, I think creationists will just pass this over and be ignorant of Dark Matter.

I don't argue with creationists anymore.  If someone asks why I don't believe, I tell them.  Going atheist is like finding out about The Matrix.  No one can be told what The Matrix is, you have to show them.  And then they have to "make up their own damn mind." -The Oracle
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Offline BSD MAN

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Re: Dark Matter - Proof?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 04:19:23 PM »
Not a creationist here, but as a Christian I feel compelled to be open to many possibilities of the causes of the universe (but I don't believe the universe was created randomly out of nothing).  I am going to address some of the points you bring, a little bit as a Christian, but also as a fan of astronomy.

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But there's this pesky little thing you've heard of it--called Dark Matter. 

Don't forget the larger portion of this concept, which is Dark Energy which theoretically stands at 73% of the make up of the universe (to a paltry 22% for Dark Matter).  It would seem that even creationists are wrangling with this idea/concept.  See creationwiki.com for some insight. http://creationwiki.org/Dark_energy   They seem to accept that the universe is getting bigger, and accelerating at the same time, and have some creation astronomers to address this (I didn't know there was such a thing as a 'creationist' astronomer!).

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Why did God create it?
From a Christian POV, this is easy.  IF this theoretical idea of Dark Matter/Energy holds up after further investigation and more is learned about over time, then mainstream science will accept this as truth.  At that moment Creationists tend to go one of two ways: it either they will "discover" a way for it to fit into their world view, or deny it and arrive at a different theory.

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Assuming there IS a God, why would he create Dark Matter?  He sent his son to Earth to die for people that wouldn't even discover Dark Matter for 2000 years. 
The same could be reasonably be said about all the recent scientific discoveries of the last 100 years.  This assertion does not weaken Creationism.  Maybe other things do, but not the argument that it took us 2000 years to discover Dark Matter.  Sort of a non-point IMO.

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We didn't even discover the marvel of planets and galaxies until we create telescopes.
 
The marvel of planets were well known thousands of years ago.  All the great ancient civilizations (Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Chinese, Egyptions) had observed the planets, had formed some scientific principals that laid down the foundation of astronomy, and had names for them.  Being that the night time sky was 10x clearer and visible than it is today, it probably was a marvel for them.  Better than Hi-Def televisions!  Telescopes greatly extended that marvel to things beyond our naked sight. I would also add that as far as the notion of "marvel" goes, all of mankind, before the Industrial Revolution, had the marvel of the night time sky, being able to see the entire Milky Way Galaxy pass over you every night, with the only exception being if it were cloudy.  I've seen it as described as taking a large paint brush dipped in the brightest yellow paint and swashing it against the biggest, blackest canvas you can find.  Heck, unless you live in the Australian Outback, the Andes Mountains, or the middle of the ocean no one can see it the way we used to.  Not such a marvel anymore.

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So God clearly didn't create these things for us to marvel, because the Bible specifically says not to seek knowledge of contradictions (1 Timothy 6:20-21).  That's what Science is.  One giant contradiction to the Bible.
  Your reference to Timothy has actually been interpretted quite a bit differently, specifically as an avoidance not of knowledge of the world or contradictions, but rather a warning about Gnosticism which was a heretical form of Christianity in the early Church and how, according to Gnosticism, there were multiple superhuman intermediaries between God and the world.  The verse in Timothy probably reminds us that there is one intermediary (Jesus Christ).  I don't think the verse really addresses what you suspect it does.   

"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates reproof is stupid" Proverbs 12

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But let's pretend that galaxies WERE created for man's marveled show the power of God...  Why Dark Matter?  Couldn't gravity have been made a little stronger?  Or stars a little larger?  I mean, while we're creating, why not just make everything work by design?  Why do we need this invisible force of gravity?  If there was a God and Genesis is true, then the solar system wouldn't need to exist within a galaxy at all.  If we don't need galaxies, then we don't need Dark Matter.

But there it is.  Dark Matter.  The invisible.
I think statement is a bit of a stretch, even for a creationist.  Creationists are not entirely blind to science are not stone throwing cave people... some have advanced science degrees, PhD's, and live in the academic world publish papers on their research.  In fact I would suspect they have to be on top of every major scienctific break through and be knowledgabvle of all the current trends in science.  Creationists do not fear science, rather hold that it proves they are correct.  They speak to gravity, they speak to theories in physics, mathematics, biology etc...Now you may not agree with conclusions, but they have smart cookies (smarter than you and me).  Here is a list of some creationist scientists and their field of study (this list shocked me). http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/bios/ 


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For me, Dark Matter SCREAMS universal evolution.  Galactic evolution.  Without it, solar systems (this one in particular) may never coalesce. 

For creationists, dark matter is still a theory, and they have come up with some alternate theories as to why there is an unknown reason for the gravitational discrepancy in the universe.... dark matter/energy currently fills this knowledge gap and can still be proved wrong.  Not being a creationist I don't see the problem of DM or DE existing.

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The universe would have exploded into nothing but a big ball of gas that would have never clustered into anything.  But instead, it works as a catalyst.  Like the rest of nature, it is its own creator.
  I have an issue with this... how can the universe be it's own creator? 

Anyhow, that's my take.  Thoughts?
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Dark Matter - Proof?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 04:54:15 PM »
Since you asked for my thoughts, I'll give them, but I'll not propose a debate.  You are on the cusp of freeing your mind, and I hope you find such freedom as exhilarating as it has been for me.

I can't speak against assumed beliefs, unfortunately.  Each individual person forms their perception of God, or a god, within that individual's own mind.  Because their perception of God is not based in whole or in part on actual, physical, verifiable evidence, their perception of God is immediately dismissible.  Fortunately, this does not apply to you, as you have vocalized your perception of the God in which you believe.

My take from what you say is that you don't believe that the Bible is the absolute, literal Word of God.  I make that deduction because you claim not to be a creationist.  Since you're not a creationist, you don't believe that the universe was created.  I make that deduction because you claim not to be a creationist.  With this in mind, I can thus deduce that you believe in a God that did not create the universe, but oversees and controls it, manipulating it for his own purpose and will.  I make this deduction because you claim to be a Christian.  Because you claim to be a Christian, I deduce that you serve the father of Jesus, assuming that the father of Jesus was a God, not a man, and that you thus believe that Jesus and God are part of the same divine entity.

And that brings us to the dissolution of your beliefs, because you believe only part of a storybook.  You have picked the parts of a story that work for you and applied those parts to your life.  While this is a tragic weakness, you are redeemed by the hope of being thirsty for knowledge.  Thus, having rejected part of the storybook, the rejection of the rest will soon follow.

So, thank you for being patient with me as I make assumptions using the information you gave me.  I hope the assumptions don't offend you.  I only have the information provided with which to work.

I say all of this to you so that I can pretty much topple everything you said by saying this: It doesn't matter what Christians believe about the origin of the universe, because their Bible is wrong.  And if the Bible is wrong about the biggest mystery in galactic history, then nothing in the Bible can be trusted.  So now we're broken into two camps: Theists and Atheists.

If you are a theist, you must believe one of two things.  Either deities exist as a part of the universe, or deities exist outside of the universe.  A deity existing as a part of the universe must exist as a result of the formation of the universe, because the laws of the universe break down at the singularity.  So any possible deity must exist outside of the universe, and that creates a new puzzle.  We can't use the Bible to tell us about such a deity, because the Bible is wrong.  So the only thing we can use to define an extra-universal deity is our own imagination.

And this proves that God is imaginary.

So, how can the universe be its own creator?  It is its own creator because there is no other possible scenario that can exist outside of our imaginations.  But, if you doubt still, then just do the math.  Everything in the universe is born from other pieces of the universe.  Your entire body came from a star...maybe even multiple stars.  Your energy comes from the sun.  And one day our sun will explode and disperse.  If Dark Energy and Dark Matter allow, it may re-coalesce into another solar system, with other lifeforms.  Because everything that exists exists as a product of existence...not as a product of something beyond existence.

It's not a theory.  It's testable and true.  You can observe it for yourself, every second of every day.  And I encourage you to continue doing so.
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