Author Topic: praying to god to make himself known  (Read 8355 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #174 on: May 05, 2012, 11:28:15 PM »
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To answer your profoundly idiotic question, no.

I stopped reading at this.  I was taught there are no stupid questions but only stupid answers.  So if you think my question is profoundly idiotic then what am I to think of your answer?

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Any Hindu could give me just as much a reason to believe their religion as you can give me to believe yours.

I need to test this more thoroughly for myself.  I've attempted to go into Muslim and Judaism chat rooms before.  Neither of the two seem very talkative.  Any sites you could recommend?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Azdgari

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #175 on: May 05, 2012, 11:40:04 PM »
Why a real live actual god would have to use the same dependence on belief and faith that all the obviously false gods require is beyond me.

Me, too.  Seems kind of counter-productive.  Why would a real god make such a concerted effort to appear fake?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline lomolo

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #176 on: May 05, 2012, 11:49:12 PM »
I stopped reading at this.  I was taught there are no stupid questions but only stupid answers.  So if you think my question is profoundly idiotic then what am I to think of your answer?
Well-written, a summation of what everyone has been asking you to provide since you started posting here, etc?

Online jaimehlers

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #177 on: May 06, 2012, 12:19:05 AM »
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
Well this would depend on if God inspired the Bible or not.  Yes I have considered the possibility that God does not exist.  But the more and more I delve into the Bible more and more truth I see.  Will I ever learn the sum of it?  Will anyone?  I don't know.  Why do I believe in the miracles that are recorder?  Because everything else in the Bible I find to be true.  So why would everything else in the Bible be true but these be a lie?
I assume you mean religious truth.  However, there are problems with this statement.  First, you have to corroborate what you find in the Bible with external, unrelated sources.  This is pretty much a fundamental when it comes to research.  Second, the fact that some things in the Bible might be accurate in no way means that they all are.  The fact that fictional books set in the real world use stuff that exists in the real world to help build the setting doesn't prove that the fictional elements are true.  Third, people claim miracles today, but when those miracles are tested rigorously, the miracles always fall through.  That suggests the only difference is a reduced ability to test and verify miracles performed in the past, rather than miracles being possible in the past but being impossible today.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
That would depend on why they don't have the right belief.  Because they don't care to learn?  That would be one reason.
By no means is it a sufficient one.  First off, you have to be able to show that the right belief can be learned to begin with, as well as being able to verify that it is correct.  Second, such a punishment should be just.  Imagine if we executed people for petty theft, for example.  I think there is no question that would be an utterly disproportionate response to a minor crime.  So, too, should a punishment for holding a wrong belief be proportionate.  It is easy to show that the kind of eternal (i.e. infinite) damnation that a lot of Christians believe in is completely disproportionate to any crime that can be committed during a finite lifetime; furthermore, even if we go by what you seem to believe (that people who hold the right belief will return to life and live forever, and people who do not simply stay dead), it is still a completely disproportionate response.  Imagine someone being permanently banned from school and from learning anything at all because they had gotten incorrect information from others, or simply held a wrong opinion about something that could not be tested.

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I look around observe the world and mankind of our time.  I read through the Bible and I see a mirror image painted within it's pages.  What am I to think?  I reason that the reasons it provides for these events is also correct.
The problem is, I look around and observe the world and humanity, then look at the Bible and see something that comes across more like Picasso or Escher.  The reason is because I do not have the same presuppositions as you do.  How do you reconcile my viewpoint with yours?  The problem is that I cannot replicate the things that cause you to form that opinion, and the facts that I can check contradict what the Bible says.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #178 on: May 06, 2012, 03:08:40 AM »
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Jst, I've asked quite a few times now.  But I always get absolutely NOTHING in response.  Tell me...... like Brakeman says, how many times should I dial the same number before concluding there is nobody on the other end?

Maybe you are dialing the wrong number.  Consider this.  Let's say God wants to give you an answer.  If he chooses not to communicate directly with you or without miraculous means then he must use a messenger.  So how would you expect a messerenger from god to deliver a message from God to you?    Would he write you a letter?   Would he call you on the phone?  Would he broadcast it on radio or TV for you to hear?  Drop you an email?  Send you a text? Or would you expect God's messenger to deliver it right to your front door?

You should consider this question the next time one of Jehovah's Witnesses knocks on your door.

Oh dear, you really don't get it do you?  So if a Muslim approaches me and starts to talk about Allah, I should take that as a "message" that Allah is real?  If a Hindu approaches me and talks about their gods, I should take that as a message they are real?

Sorry, but it doesn't wash.  Particularly this bit:  "If he chooses not to communicate directly..."......sorry, but I thought your god loves me and wants to know me and have a relationship with me?  If I want to have a relationship with someone, I make it clear TO THEM that I exist, and open communications by saying "hi". But like I say, time and again I get nothing, which makes me suspect either that your god doesn't give a stuff about a relationship with me, or that he doesn't exist.

I'm assuming, BTW, that what I'm saying about a loving god that wants to know me is correct.  Because there is no way that an all-powerful being who honestly wants to know me and who I have asked several times to make himself known, is going to rely on cryptic and ambiguous "messengers" to make contact.

Like I said, I'm not asking for signs and miraculous burning bushes.  Just a "hey god, are you there?"  "Yes, I am."  "Cool, let's talk then."  "Okay"  You know - a conversation.  A relationship.

Why doesn't your god want a relationship with me, Jst?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Alzael

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #179 on: May 06, 2012, 05:33:42 AM »

I stopped reading at this.  I was taught there are no stupid questions but only stupid answers.  So if you think my question is profoundly idiotic then what am I to think of your answer?

I don't know. Perhaps you should actually read the answer and find out for yourself.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 05:54:55 AM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #180 on: May 06, 2012, 07:05:43 AM »
Why do I believe in the miracles that are recorder?  Because everything else in the Bible I find to be true.  So why would everything else in the Bible be true but these be a lie?
The sky is blue.
Elephants are bigger than mice.
Fish can swim.
I can turn invisible at will.
Apples are fruit.
A cat has two ears.

Are any of these untrue? Does the quantity of truth mean that they all must be true?


Can you really look at the earth and think it wasn't created perfectly for man.  And I am talking about looking beyond the bare necessities for survival.

Yes, it's a highly dangerous and volatile place, and we could all be wiped out easily by all manner of natural phenomenon.

But they don't do so because they are looking at a sunset. 
How do you know? Can you talk to dogs and cats and understand them? Who is to say that enjoying a sunset is the basis for anything? Maybe dogs and cats find even more beauty in things that we cannot appreciate.

Only man is able to fully take advantage of all the earth has to offer.  And they take great delight in doing so.

I cannot fly unaided, swim for miles underwater, see in the dark, photosynthesise or do many things that all other humans are limited to. The earth has so much more to offer to a being that can do more than any human is capable of.

Offline Illuminatus99

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #181 on: May 06, 2012, 07:45:13 AM »
If Jesus actually wanted to teach something, he would have explained *why* The Lord's Prayer is a proper way to pray.  It seems a lot like if someone asked me how to build a functional internal combustion engine and I pointed to a little 4-banger and said "like that".  Do you think that I actually answered the question, or would it have been better if I explained a little something about the construction of the engine?
no, the wankel engine is clearly superior.

Offline Illuminatus99

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #182 on: May 06, 2012, 07:55:00 AM »
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So why don't we see that EVER.

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?
Have you tried Allah,Odin,Zuess or the myriad of other gods in the place of your God? All these other gods promise to protect their followers and punish those who question them. Like your God,they ALL have failed. See if your God was real and he could terminate evil by placing Satan in hell he would do it in a nano-second.
I recall a certain norse god making the claim that he would wipe out the ice giants, when was the last time anyone saw an ice giant?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #183 on: May 06, 2012, 08:06:56 AM »
  Because everything else in the Bible I find to be true.  So why would everything else in the Bible be true but these be a lie?

Because it's been constructed to appear that way, plus, you always give the Bible the benefit of the doubt, when it could be wrong. The creation story is a good example of the way you choose to bend over backwards to accommodate error.

The best way of constructing lies, is to blend in a healthy dose of truth, so that people who think like you (most people) will be fooled. The best lies resemble truth. The most devious liars always use as much truth as possible. I have a neighbour who lies continuously (every sentence), but because nearly everyone knows that he lies continuously, he can't do as much damage as someone who is taken seriously.

Regarding the construction of the Bible: it uses as much truth as it possibly can. Why wouldn't it? However, when it is not possible, it has to lie. For example, it was not possible for the writer to know how the universe was created, so he got caught out by modern science. It's not possible for a person to resurrect, so it has to lie, there.

There is a certain regularity to how you have fooled yourself. You have seen that the Bible is correct in the things it doesn't have to lie about, but have concluded that, therefore, it must also be truthful about the things it had to lie about.

The most critical part of the Jesus story is the resurrection. No matter what logic you use to pretend that the stories about Jesus are mostly true, there is no way you can possibly verify whether the most critical part of it has been invented. I hear that Elvis is still alive.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Illuminatus99

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #184 on: May 06, 2012, 08:10:47 AM »

I cannot fly unaided, swim for miles underwater, see in the dark, photosynthesise or do many things that all other humans are limited to. The earth has so much more to offer to a being that can do more than any human is capable of.
If you look at our human bodies compared to what other animals are capable of, we come out pretty pathetic. We can only see in three colors, we can't see very far, we can't detect vibrations in the ground from very far away, can't fly, can't swim very well, can't breathe underwater, can't survive in extreme temperatures or in space, can't meaningfully communicate with species other than our own, we can barely hear, aren't built to walk upright, etc. if we were created to be superior to the animals we were meant to have dominion over, then shouldn't we have more than just the ability to do math and a lack of fear over vaccum cleaners to lord over the other animals? I guess not having to eat our own poop like rabbits is a bonus but I would almost eat my poo for for a back that doesn't require narcotics to ignore.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #185 on: May 06, 2012, 08:20:45 AM »
As Illuminatus99 said, our spine evolved from a horizontal position to a vertical position, and by that we mean "just barely." Ask anyone who's having a backache just how "well designed" he feels. A first year engineering student could make vast improvements over our current spine structure.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #186 on: May 06, 2012, 09:37:48 AM »
Jstweb,

You asked me what evidence I would require to believe in your god, and I asked you to help me out. I asked you how I could differentiate between a god and a highly advanced alien. I truthfully don't know how I could do that, so I need your assistance. I need to be able to tell the difference if something astounding should happen that I can't explain. I need to be able to tell if what I might be seeing a god do is really happening, or an advanced alien technology is doing it, or causing my mind to "believe" something that isn't real. This is not a joke question, it's very serious.

Can you help me out?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #187 on: May 06, 2012, 09:55:54 AM »
But how can you dismiss all those claiming to have their prayers answered?  Some sure.  But all?

Because they are answered at the same frequency if the prayer was to a jug of milk. Because other people with other beliefs have the same success rate: the same as if their beliefs weren't true.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline lomolo

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #188 on: May 06, 2012, 12:33:09 PM »
I cannot fly unaided, swim for miles underwater, see in the dark, photosynthesise or do many things that all other humans are limited to. The earth has so much more to offer to a being that can do more than any human is capable of.
Don't forget, you also can't synthesize Vitamin C! I guess we were made for scurvy!  :laugh:

Offline velkyn

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #189 on: May 07, 2012, 08:48:44 AM »
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Are you saying your god couldn’t convince a mere human?

No, I'm saying that things that didn't work in the past to convince them have no need to be repeated.
Ah, so you are claimign that your fellow Christians are lying since they are sure that those "things" from the past are being done right now.  jst, you are just one more Christian who claims to be the only "right" one and having no evidence for it.  Again. 
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Have you seen any?  It seems reasonable to conclude that God does not.
No, I haven't seen any. So your fellow Christains are indeed lying.  Pity that you can't convince them of that or show it. 
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No I do not.  I claim more is required than sincerity and have provided proof from scripture.
  And you've failed since I have shown scripture that contradicts that which you have cherry-picked. 

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Nevertheless it has happened and not just in their tiny world.
And we have how many tens of thousands of sects who all claim that their particular interpretation is the only real one and are trying really hard to spread that one and defeat the other Christian's message?  I particularly love to watch Catholics and Protestants trying to convert each other's people, with the Mormons and JWs sniping at the sides. 

Still the baseless lies that the world will somehow end when this nonsense is preached in "all the world".  Still waiting for the lies in your lunatic Revelation to start.  Poor Christians, they keep claiming that their "messiah" will be back "real soon now", but nothing occurs.  And they keep lying and moving the goalposts.  Such excellent examples of how "good" Christianity is.
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