Author Topic: praying to god to make himself known  (Read 6177 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #145 on: May 04, 2012, 10:00:41 PM »
Politicians can't even change things to how they want it.  What chance do I have?  Even if I devote my life to it I would only become a politician.

Which is still infinitely more free will than you would ever with have with god. This will remain true no matter how much you keep dodging the point.

Is science going to keep the earth here forever?  And inhabited by humans?

Will god? Between the two I think science has the better proven track record by a vast margin. You can't even properly your own god.

Becuase these are fundamentally different.

Not really. Different yes, but none of them are fundamentally different. They all come from the same thing. Wishful thinking and abdication of reality.

I really understand where you are coming from.  I struggle with these same questions frequently.  Does God exist?  Is the Bible true?  Is Christianity the correct religion etc,. etc.  I am willing to accept the truth no matter what it may be.  And there is a lot more studying for me to do.

But you don't have truth. That's what you fail to realize. Truth requires evidence, which you don't have. If theists actually had evidence there wouldn't be any atheists (or at least very very few). If you had evidence (any evidence at all) for anything that you say you could point to it right now and show me that you have the truth and that your god exists. But you can't do that, because you don't have it.

As long as you ignore evidence you can never have truth. All you can have is a bunch of baseless ideas that you've chosen to call truth to make yourself feel better.

But I don't understand what an athiest would consider evidence of God beyond a face to face interview or a miracle.

Before you could begin to actually prove god you would have to first be able to actually form a working definition of what a god is. Which is why religious claims of truth always fail quickly. They can't even agree on what they're talking about when they use the word.

If a God did create this universe then much can be learned about him from looking at his creation, apart from a holy text, and apart from humans too. 

The keyword is IF. But there's no reason or evidence that would justify thinking that.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 10:02:42 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1992
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #146 on: May 04, 2012, 10:01:42 PM »
If a God did create this universe then much can be learned about him from looking at his creation, apart from a holy text, and apart from humans too.  Humans are a special consideration.   

Yes.  If God did create everything, then we can learn a lot by studying it.  But if you do that with an unbiased approach (not thinking God is 'good' or 'bad' but assuming only that he exists) you will find that the most likely scenario is that mankind is not even on his radar.  Just look around at how hostile this universe is to life.   

But if God did not create everything, then we should begin to look at alternate possibilities and then every single bit of your theology here becomes worthless.  All the excuses you use, the free will arguments, everything you say about Jesus and the end times, it's all fake.  If God is not real, and all of this has formed from natural forces, then looking at all of it through a scientific lens is the only way to understand it.  Many of us have taken the time to analyze the alternate possibilities and find the God theory to be utterly worthless as an explanatory force for the universe. 

Also, the idea that humans are a special consideration in the universe is mind bogglingly foolish.  We live on a small part of the thin outer edge of a tiny planet in the middle of a no name solar system in a no name galaxy among literally hundreds of billions of galaxies.  We are an evolved social animal.  Whether that makes you happy or sad, it doesn't matter.  It is what it is.  The only reason you think humans are a special consideration is because you're a human.  If you were a cat that could think like a human, you would think cats were a special consideration. 

Take out the miracles of the past.  What else is fiction?

If you take out the miracles in the bible, then Jesus is just a guy who made claims without any proof at all, and thus he isn't special in any way.  And if you take away the primary miracle (the resurrection), then the entire religion is fake. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1393
  • Darwins +24/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #147 on: May 04, 2012, 10:22:38 PM »
Quote
Which is still infinitely more free will than you would ever with have with god. This will remain true no matter how much you keep dodging the point.

But there is another difference.  I do not want to change God's laws.  I do man's.

Quote
Truth requires evidence

Then what is truth and what is the evidence?

Quote
Before you could begin to actually prove god you would have to first be able to actually form a working definition of what a god is. Which is why religious claims of truth always fail quickly. They can't even agree on what they're talking about when they use the word.

What definitions are unclear about Jehovah?

Quote
The keyword is IF. But there's no reason or evidence that would justify thinking that.

Well the question to me is "Is there a religious text book that promotes the same personality as it's creator?"  This one would be most worth considering.

Quote
Yes.  If God did create everything, then we can learn a lot by studying it.  But if you do that with an unbiased approach (not thinking God is 'good' or 'bad' but assuming only that he exists) you will find that the most likely scenario is that mankind is not even on his radar.  Just look around at how hostile this universe is to life.

Let me clarify further on humans being a special case.  Not only were humans created for the earth but the earth was created for humans.  Humans have the ability to do much more than just survive.  They have the ability to really enjoy life.  And there is much life around for us to fill our senses and for us to really enjoy life?  Who doesn't enjoy a beautiful park or a beautiful sunset.  We could just look at the sunset and say, "Yep there's a sunset", but we don't.  We say "Wow look at that sunset!"  And creation is full of things that make us do this.  And we are fully capable of enjoying them all, unlike the animals and it certainly provides bo biological function that I can tell.

Quote
But if God did not create everything, then we should begin to look at alternate possibilities and then every single bit of your theology here becomes worthless.

Why is disbelief in God a prerequisite for mapping out the universe?

Quote
If you take out the miracles in the bible, then Jesus is just a guy who made claims without any proof at all, and thus he isn't special in any way.  And if you take away the primary miracle (the resurrection), then the entire religion is fake.

What about the history?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6274
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #148 on: May 04, 2012, 10:25:25 PM »
Nothing in the Bible is impressive. Those few things that might be factual (city names, location of certain tribes) are irrelevant. Those things that are so wrong it hurts (Genesis, the flood) make it virtually impossible to be impressed with the good things, like occasionally intelligent statements such as "Thou shalt not kill", which is a repeat of many other examples of ancient wisdom.

Confucius was espousing the golden rule 500 years before Jesus. And he wasn't the first one. So those parts that do not insult my intelligence are but pieces of wisdom that have existed in many cultures across the centuries. That the Bible has those words is nice, but is nothing to brag about.

Humans have no reason to be born really, really nice. Though we have many social tendencies built into us via genetics, it takes social conditioning to make a person into a viable member of society. So it is not surprising that our less than perfect moral character would be brought up in an old book of ancient wisdom. Of course we do wrong things. Someone a few thousand years ago labeled it "original sin" and then winged it from there. People living before psychology and a nearby Barnes and Nobel full of self-help books needed structured guidance from elsewhere. Well, they didn't need it, but it was provided. And it guided generations, rightly or wrongly. Had everybody interpreted it like the Amish, the world might be a better place, except for the suspenders. Sadly, more interpret it like the Southern Baptists and all the hate they engender.

Toss in a Jesus story, and all those cute sculptures of the dead guy on a cross, and it starts to get beyond ridiculous. I will never understand how a guy supposedly dying for us for three days is a huge sacrifice. And this "promise" to return that believers have been clinging too for two centuries: how does that make us better? The only thing I've noticed is that believers are always hoping it happens while they are still alive so they don't even have to die. Wimps.

The bad part is that if there are still humans around 30,000 years from now, some of them will be Christians still waiting for JC to make his big comeback. I have no idea why the idea gives so many people hope, but I have a pretty good idea how miserable such folks can make us. The Rick Santorum mentality (an oxymoron), where someone who thinks his version of the Bible is the right one and who insists we all join him and his parade, is such a pathetic example of inhumanity that all other beings should be able to see through it in an instant. Sadly, voluntary ignorance means he and his sort will always have followers.

No, the Bible is one of many ancient texts that have survived the ages and continue to mislead millions of minions. The Hindus are in the same boat. And the Muslims. Each is so darned sure they are right they will kill if necessary, even though each book has some version of the aforementioned "Thou shalt not kill".

Of course I can't hassle a JW over that part. You guys are serious about stuff like that. Sadly, some of your children die needing blood transfusions. So I hope you don't feel too much pride over being loving and peaceful. Needlessly dying in ones sleep is neither loving or peaceful.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4736
  • Darwins +538/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #149 on: May 04, 2012, 10:46:22 PM »
While some things in the Bible may be "gray" some things are not so much.  I am certain the Bible teaches that God will allow the truth to be known, at least to the extent it has been revealed.  Some will, and always have, accurately known the truth.  These people have always been a minority.  I would not expect things to be different now.  Have I discovered this minority?  Perhaps, but perhaps not.  But the Bible says they do exist, and they will teach the truth.
The Bible may teach that, but there is no guarantee that the Bible is itself correct.  Have you considered that there may not be a single person who has ever lived or who ever will live who will accurately know this truth that you seek?  That it may be impossible to determine if it exists in the first place?

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
So when I say a person must choose what to believe I'm not suggesting this belief will change things.  As much as I see people believing in a burning hell, I myself do not see this teaching in the Bible.  But it's either one or the other.  Either there is a burning place of fire where "departed souls" are tortured or there is not.  In fact, coming here is mostly for the purpose of testing my beliefs.
Indeed, a belief in something won't cause it to be.  So why, then, would a supreme being judge and punish people for the mere fact of not having the right belief?  Imagine judging and punishing a child for believing in an imaginary friend and you will see why this is so horrendous.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
All I am saying is that the truth exists and I ask consideration be given to what I have learned and been taught.  If I am wrong then I would like to know it.  My quest has not been the quest of becoming a christian insomuch as a search for the truth for what the Bible really is meant to teach.  Even if God doesn't exist, the Bible teaches something.  What does it, for a fact, teach about God?  This has been my question.  Like you I don't want opinions I want fact.
What if there is nothing but opinions?  You seek this truth, but you do not actually know that it exists.  You only believe that it does because of the Bible, but the Bible itself was written by humans.  There is no way for you to determine that it contains any truth at all.

Here's something to consider.  You seek an answer - the truth, as you put it.  Yet you cannot ever be sure that you will find this answer, or that it's possible to find it.  So perhaps it is not the answer that matters, but the fact that you seek an answer instead of believing you already have one.  However, you need to not limit yourself to only the answer that you think you're looking for, because that limits how you are able to seek.  And you also need to think about how you seek as well.

Online JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1992
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #150 on: May 04, 2012, 10:52:09 PM »
Quote
Yes.  If God did create everything, then we can learn a lot by studying it.  But if you do that with an unbiased approach (not thinking God is 'good' or 'bad' but assuming only that he exists) you will find that the most likely scenario is that mankind is not even on his radar.  Just look around at how hostile this universe is to life.

Let me clarify further on humans being a special case.  Not only were humans created for the earth but the earth was created for humans.  Humans have the ability to do much more than just survive.  They have the ability to really enjoy life.  And there is much life around for us to fill our senses and for us to really enjoy life?  Who doesn't enjoy a beautiful park or a beautiful sunset.  We could just look at the sunset and say, "Yep there's a sunset", but we don't.  We say "Wow look at that sunset!"  And creation is full of things that make us do this.  And we are fully capable of enjoying them all, unlike the animals and it certainly provides bo biological function that I can tell.

Please answer this seriously... If you look at the universe and consider humanity's place within it from an unbiased approach (not believing or disbelieving in God) does it seem as if the universe was made for humanity or not?  Again, forget God for a moment and think about what criteria would have to be met in order to think all the universe was made for humans.   

Why do you think the ability to enjoy life is important to talk about here?  Do you really think animals do not enjoy life?  Have you ever heard a cat purr, or watched a dog wag it's tail at it's owners approach?  They enjoy attention, they enjoy being loved just like we do. 

I find the 'we like sunsets, therefore humans are special' argument lacking. 

Quote
But if God did not create everything, then we should begin to look at alternate possibilities and then every single bit of your theology here becomes worthless.

Why is disbelief in God a prerequisite for mapping out the universe?

Because humans look for answers. We're curious animals.  We want to understand things, and we are not satisfied by the made up answers that religion provides. 

Quote
If you take out the miracles in the bible, then Jesus is just a guy who made claims without any proof at all, and thus he isn't special in any way.  And if you take away the primary miracle (the resurrection), then the entire religion is fake.

What about the history?

Of how the bible came to be, or of the history within the bible? 

If it is the first, then I am relatively well versed thanks to the help of  Mr. Bart Ehrman, and Mrs. Karen Armstrong .  I've read quite a bit about the history of the bible. 

If it is the second, then this is much more dubious.  What I think you are speaking about is the historical characters and the historical places; am I correct?   If that is the case, then I have to ask you whether or not the fact that Harry Potter takes place in London is evidence that He is an actual person and that he can cast spells with a wand?  And I also have to ask you whether or not the fact that a place like Jerusalem existed has anything to do with the purported miracles that took place there?  If I said my great great grandfather died and rose from the dead 3 days later, would I add any credibility to myself by saying it happened in New York City? 

Have you ever read the bible from cover to cover Justwebbrowsing?  I'm starting to think you haven't. 
   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #151 on: May 04, 2012, 11:10:35 PM »
But there is another difference.  I do not want to change God's laws.  I do man's.


Which has no bearing on the matter of freedom, which is under discussion. Also that's not actually true. You mean that you don't want to change what you think are gods laws. You have no way of knowing that what you think his laws are is what they actually are.

Then what is truth and what is the evidence?

Evidence is something that is used to demonstrate the truth (truth is the state of being in accord with fact or reality) of an assertion. However evidence must be something demonstrable if you wish to prove a claim and it also must not be evidence of multiple things.

Your evidence could equally be used by any religious person to justify anything, and more to the point provides nothing demonstrable.

Demonstrable evidence, logic, and reason are what we use to separate fact from fantasy. Since your religious claims ignore those, then there is nothing separating your beliefs from a mental illness or something you just made up. The only truth you can ever have is what you have arbitrarily decided to call truth.


What definitions are unclear about Jehovah?

Pretty much all of it. That's why you can't define it.


Well the question to me is "Is there a religious text book that promotes the same personality as it's creator?"  This one would be most worth considering.

However you first would have to assume that the god the text talks about actually wrote it, as opposed to some human. Then there's the problem that any human who wrote a book could easily make it in line with the personality of its creator. Then let's not forget that the bible is not even remotely in line with the personality of the god that you claim exists, unless that god is heavy schiztophrenic tendencies.

But aside from all of those problems that's not a bad question.

Let me clarify further on humans being a special case.  Not only were humans created for the earth but the earth was created for humans.

Then why can we only inhabit a small part of it? Why do we need to build special shelters to keep us from dying from exposure to the elements in most parts of it? Why is this planet full of thousands of species of animals, bacteria, and microbes that can kick our asses?

If this planet was made for us your god is a terrible creator.

Humans have the ability to do much more than just survive.  They have the ability to really enjoy life.  And there is much life around for us to fill our senses and for us to really enjoy life?  Who doesn't enjoy a beautiful park or a beautiful sunset.

How do you know this only applies to humans? I mean beyond your stunningly accurate ability to reshape your own reality to match what you want it to.

Why is disbelief in God a prerequisite for mapping out the universe?

It's not. It just isn't necessary. Invoking god is an intellectual dead-end. It doesn't answer anything, because no one knows anything about god for certainty (assuming he even exists). It goes back to not making claims about things that you can't know or define.

Have you ever read the bible from cover to cover Justwebbrowsing?  I'm starting to think you haven't. 

Well we all know he hasn't.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:12:28 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1992
  • Darwins +194/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2012, 11:14:09 PM »
Well we all know he hasn't.

Shoot, did he say that and I missed it someplace?  Damn I'm getting old. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2065
  • Darwins +125/-2
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2012, 11:36:17 PM »
But there is another difference.  I do not want to change God's laws.  I do man's.

You don't want to change God's laws, huh? Let's take a look at one of his righteous laws. How about... the Law of Jealousy? Are you familiar with it? It's found in Numbers 5. If you don't want to bother reading the entire chapter then I'll give you a quick 'n dirty run down of the law:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If a man is suspicious that his wife is cheating he can drag her to the local witchdoctor along with a jealousy offering (because voodoo isn't free, damnit). The priest will then take some holy water and dust and whatnot and make some cursed concoction the woman has to drink. If the woman cheated then this drink will drop into her bowels and make her thighs rot out from the inside and her womb will swell up and the cursed water will abort the child. Then the shaman will write it down in a book and perform some voodoo ink work with the cursed water forcing the woman to be cursed forever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jst, what do you think about this barbaric law of Yahweh's? There are many more; some are more savage, some less so. But they're all equally as superstitious and stupid. What do you expect from backwater bronze age men?

Well the question to me is "Is there a religious text book that promotes the same personality as it's creator?"  This one would be most worth considering.

Jst, can you tell me about Yahweh's personality? If I was completely unfamiliar with your god, how would you describe him? And if you would be so kind, back up your take on your god's personality with some scripture.

Let me clarify further on humans being a special case.  Not only were humans created for the earth but the earth was created for humans.

Is the Bible your evidence for this? Or are you claiming this to be the case using an outside source?

Humans have the ability to do much more than just survive.  They have the ability to really enjoy life. [...] And we are fully capable of enjoying them all, unlike the animals [...]

Jst, you seem to be hung up on the idea of us humans being special and somehow different from animals. We aren't. We're animals. We're apes. We like to think of ourselves as clever apes, and maybe we are, but we're apes none-the-less. And Jst, you must not be a cat owner. I used to have a cat that was HAPPY. And because he didn't have to worry about the problems that come with self awareness, he achieved a level of happiness I'm certain no human could ever hope to sustain.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2300
  • Darwins +123/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #154 on: May 05, 2012, 06:11:45 AM »
Many many Christians have exhorted those who don't agree with them to just ask their god to show himself.  MagicMiles did just recently in The Shelter. 

The magic formula always seems to ask this god "sincerely".  There are often other claims of how to do it, on the knees, with certain prayers but almost all of them require the ask to be "sincere".  Now, how do christiand determine who is truly "sincere"?  Well, it seems that it requires becomign a Christian who totally agrees with them.  If you dare to report no answer, then you weren't doing it "right"....   

Shit directly from a bull is healthier to consume than crap spewed by Christians.


But in order to give the Christians one more chance, can we get a agreed upon set of factors that can be used to see who is praying right for this god's attention?  Christians you are up.  Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?

The answer is "hidden" within your post. I wish I had time to read the rest of the thread but I'm sure the Christians who reply will not be able to see your "hidden" answer.


Sorry that I missed meeting up with you a few weeks ago. I should head north for a beer or two some weekend.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4353
  • Darwins +206/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappĂ©
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #155 on: May 05, 2012, 06:12:33 AM »
But I don't understand what an athiest would consider evidence of God beyond a face to face interview or a miracle.

You know, I'm actually not sure what would convince me, either.  However:

If your deity exists and is omniscient, he does know what would convince me.  And he also knows that, if he does exist, I want to know about it.

And if your deity exists and is omnipotent, then he is also capable of giving me whatever it is that would convince me of his existence.

And yet, here I sit, continuing to be an atheist.  Why is that?

It can't be a question of him "not wanting to interfere with my free will".  He knows perfectly well that if I'm wrong about his not existing, I want to be corrected and am willing to be corrected by whatever method it would take to convince me of my error.  So there must be some other reason.

The only alternatives I can come up with are: 1) he doesn't want me to believe in him, or 2) he's not there at all.  Considering that there's no evidence of his existence in any event, I'm going with number two.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4353
  • Darwins +206/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappĂ©
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #156 on: May 05, 2012, 06:34:18 AM »
the earth was created for humans.

I'm absolutely astonished whenever I see a believer say this with a straight face.  Have you not looked at the world around us?  There are dozens of things I could point out that make it quite clear that this planet was not designed for human habitation, but I'll take just one.

Seventy percent of the surface of the earth is covered with salt water.  We can't live in that area.  We can't drink the water or give it to livestock to drink, or irrigate crops with it.  We can't bathe in it or use it for cleaning.  The way the oceans are configured creates hurricanes, and in many cases, getting from one point to another one requires travel by water, which is dangerous and costly.

A much better arrangement would be to make the oceans fresh water, arrange them geographically so that water travel is never required to get from one place to another and so that the oceans don't generate hurricanes, and shrink them to about one-tenth their current volume, which would still provide the entire human race with far more water than it needs and also give much more land area to grow food.  If I can figure this out, an omniscient being shouldn't even have to think about it.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5011
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #157 on: May 05, 2012, 07:57:14 AM »
You know, I'm actually not sure what would convince me, either.  However:

If your deity exists and is omniscient, he does know what would convince me.  And he also knows that, if he does exist, I want to know about it.

I can imagine a believer dropping to their knees and praying if what they perceived as a god popped up in front of them and did a demonstration. I would be amazed, but I would just start asking questions like "How did you do that" and so on. No matter what It did I would want to know how it did it and how it worked.

That's what the problem is. I would always assume whatever it was could be explained no matter how amazing, and therefore I wouldn't be able to tell whether it was an advanced alien or a god. Maybe there's no effective difference between the most advanced alien technology and what a god can do. If anyone knows of a way to tell the difference (Jstweb?) please post in the thread.

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #158 on: May 05, 2012, 09:57:12 AM »
Jstwebbrowsing,
If Hal were god and I picked up the phone to call him to beg for his forgiveness and to ask him not to kill me, and he answered the call and said "Well Brakeman, I don't think you're sincere enough, it's gonna be hell for you unless you start getting sincere," I would suddenly start getting sincere wouldn't I? However, If I called Hal and his phone just rang and rang, how is it logical that my sincerity is the issue? If prayer was really talking to god, then the "answering of the call" would wipe all insincerity away in a heart beat. To claim that only a "tru bleever" can talk to god is nonsensical, as the bible is rife with examples of god talking to unbelievers. 

The truth of the matter is, christians delude themselves into making up a phone conversation with god while atheists can see that the phone cord has been cut.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2012, 11:27:39 AM »
Quote
So why does your god ignore so many prayers from people wanting to know if he exists?

First I would ask what sort of answer were they looking for?  What would it take to convince them?  Are they asking for a [miraculous] sign?  The Bible shows this is not going to happen during this time.  But apart from that what would be convincing to them?

What sort of answer?  ANY sort of answer.

Jst, what you - and perhaps your god - have to realise, is that to me there is no more evidence for Yahweh than there is for Allah, or Isis, or Odin, or any one of the hundreds of thousands of gods proposed over the centuries.  No reason whatsoever for me to assume that this one god from thousands is the one that really exists. 

But I'm game to try - if he's real, I most definitely want to know.  So that's all I want from your god.  When I say "god, are you there?", to get a "yes I am" coming back.  No miracles, no flaming portents in the sky....just an ANSWER.

And an answer - to a genuine question, from a god who loves me and wants to know me and wants me to love him and have a relationship with him - is the absolute minimum I would expect.....assuming that everything between the '-s' is true.

Trouble is, it doesn't happen.  Answer comes there none from the god who wants a relationship with me.  And so I presume that that god is yet another of those thousands that doesn't REALLY exist, and so I move on to the next one.

Jst, I've asked quite a few times now.  But I always get absolutely NOTHING in response.  Tell me...... like Brakeman says, how many times should I dial the same number before concluding there is nobody on the other end?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1393
  • Darwins +24/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2012, 07:59:48 PM »
Quote
The Bible may teach that, but there is no guarantee that the Bible is itself correct.  Have you considered that there may not be a single person who has ever lived or who ever will live who will accurately know this truth that you seek?  That it may be impossible to determine if it exists in the first place?

Well this would depend on if God inspired the Bible or not.  Yes I have considered the possibility that God does not exist.  But the more and more I delve into the Bible more and more truth I see.  Will I ever learn the sum of it?  Will anyone?  I don't know.  Why do I believe in the miracles that are recorder?  Because everything else in the Bible I find to be true.  So why would everything else in the Bible be true but these be a lie?

Quote
Indeed, a belief in something won't cause it to be.  So why, then, would a supreme being judge and punish people for the mere fact of not having the right belief?

That would depend on why they don't have the right belief.  Because they don't care to learn?  That would be one reason.

Quote
What if there is nothing but opinions?  You seek this truth, but you do not actually know that it exists.  You only believe that it does because of the Bible, but the Bible itself was written by humans.  There is no way for you to determine that it contains any truth at all.

I look around observe the world and mankind of our time.  I read through the Bible and I see a mirror image painted within it's pages.  What am I to think?  I reason that the reasons it provides for these events is also correct.

Quote
does it seem as if the universe was made for humanity or not?
 

Whether I choose to believe in God or not does not change my opinion.  The answer is yes.  Now they may have a lot to learn in order to really enjoy it but that's beside the point.  Now I will ask a question.  Can you really look at the earth and think it wasn't created perfectly for man.  And I am talking about looking beyond the bare necessities for survival.

Quote
Have you ever heard a cat purr, or watched a dog wag it's tail at it's owners approach?

But they don't do so because they are looking at a sunset.  Only man is able to fully take advantage of all the earth has to offer.  And they take great delight in doing so.

Quote
Of how the bible came to be, or of the history within the bible? 

If it is the first, then I am relatively well versed thanks to the help of  Mr. Bart Ehrman, and Mrs. Karen Armstrong .  I've read quite a bit about the history of the bible.

I know some about the history of the former.  Could you tell me some of the things you know to be fact and not theory?

Quote
I have to ask you whether or not the fact that Harry Potter takes place in London is evidence that He is an actual person and that he can cast spells with a wand?

I don't know.  How long have I known you?  Are you mentally stable?  Do I think you are creating a conspiracy?  Have you ever lied to me before?   Do I hear the same story from other people?  If all those answers are positive then I would at least accept there is someone named Harry Potter that lives in London that did something with a wand you at least thought was magic.

Quote
Have you ever read the bible from cover to cover Justwebbrowsing?  I'm starting to think you haven't.

Yes.  Have you ever read the Bible from a viewpoint other than to discredit it?

Quote
Which has no bearing on the matter of freedom, which is under discussion.

I have no problem giving up a little freedom if I get something worthwhile in return.  I pay taxes.

Quote
Also that's not actually true. You mean that you don't want to change what you think are gods laws. You have no way of knowing that what you think his laws are is what they actually are.

You are right.  But whatever they may be I will gladly accept them if I could live forever in a paradise.  I would give up a lot of freedom for that.  I mean do you think everyone's just going to be gathered around and be bowing down to God all day?  That's not what he had Adam do.  Knowing what I know now, I would change places with Adam in a heartbeat and I would be perfectly happy not eating fruit off one tree.  At least I don't have to pay taxes anymore.

Quote
Pretty much all of it. That's why you can't define it.

You are right.  Without the entire knowledge of God I could not hope to accurately define him no more than I can define you.

Quote
Evidence is something that is used to demonstrate the truth.

I cannot see God no more than I can see the wind.  But, like the wind, I can feel him and see what he does.  And I don't need a scientist to tell me that wind exists.

Quote
Then let's not forget that the bible is not even remotely in line with the personality of the god that you claim exists, unless that god is heavy schiztophrenic tendencies.

This is according to you own magic decoder ring.

Quote
Why do we need to build special shelters to keep us from dying from exposure to the elements in most parts of it? Why is this planet full of thousands of species of animals, bacteria, and microbes that can kick our asses?

Because man did not listen to the creator and was forced to leave his home.

Quote
How do you know this only applies to humans? I mean beyond your stunningly accurate ability to reshape your own reality to match what you want it to.

What else can enjoy all the earth has to offer?

Quote
It's not. It just isn't necessary

Then quit beating me over the head with science.  Science and God are not mutually exclusive.  According to the lack scientific evidence to prove or disprove God I choose to believe in him because of other outside sources.  According to this same lack of scientific evidence you choose to believe he does not exist and won't accept outside sources.

Quote
Jst, what do you think about this barbaric law of Yahweh's?

Well first I would think there were not many cheating wives among the hebrews.  Secondly I would think God would know the truth.  Thirdly I would think this was culturally acceptable.  Fourth I think she should be punished if she did cheat.  Fifth I am glad a new coventant was formed.  Was the punishment just at that time?  That is subjective.

What is curturally acceptable today?  Adultry.  Show me how this way is more optimal.

Quote
Is the Bible your evidence for this? Or are you claiming this to be the case using an outside source?

And outside source pointed it out to me.

Quote
And because he didn't have to worry about the problems that come with self awareness, he achieved a level of happiness I'm certain no human could ever hope to sustain.

Unless we have someone to love us and take care of use like a cat does.

Quote
The answer is "hidden" within your post. I wish I had time to read the rest of the thread but I'm sure the Christians who reply will not be able to see your "hidden" answer

Neither of those are my posts.

Quote
You know, I'm actually not sure what would convince me, either.  However:

If your deity exists and is omniscient, he does know what would convince me.  And he also knows that, if he does exist, I want to know about it.

And if your deity exists and is omnipotent, then he is also capable of giving me whatever it is that would convince me of his existence.

And yet, here I sit, continuing to be an atheist.  Why is that?

Maybe because you have things so set in your mind that you are impossible to convince.

Quote
I can imagine a believer dropping to their knees and praying if what they perceived as a god popped up in front of them and did a demonstration. I would be amazed, but I would just start asking questions like "How did you do that" and so on. No matter what It did I would want to know how it did it and how it worked.

That's what the problem is. I would always assume whatever it was could be explained no matter how amazing, and therefore I wouldn't be able to tell whether it was an advanced alien or a god. Maybe there's no effective difference between the most advanced alien technology and what a god can do. If anyone knows of a way to tell the difference (Jstweb?) please post in the thread.

Simple.  God is the one that created the aliens lol.  Sorry, I am running out of steam for this post.  Are you suggesting this is the case?

Quote
The truth of the matter is, christians delude themselves into making up a phone conversation with god while atheists can see that the phone cord has been cut.

Conversly, many others think their prayers have been answered.  Does this make them better people?  Perhaps, but not necessarily so in every case.

Quote
Jst, I've asked quite a few times now.  But I always get absolutely NOTHING in response.  Tell me...... like Brakeman says, how many times should I dial the same number before concluding there is nobody on the other end?

Maybe you are dialing the wrong number.  Consider this.  Let's say God wants to give you an answer.  If he chooses not to communicate directly with you or without miraculous means then he must use a messenger.  So how would you expect a messerenger from god to deliver a message from God to you?    Would he write you a letter?   Would he call you on the phone?  Would he broadcast it on radio or TV for you to hear?  Drop you an email?  Send you a text? Or would you expect God's messenger to deliver it right to your front door?

You should consider this question the next time one of Jehovah's Witnesses knocks on your door.

Moderator Note: I fixed some pretty awkward quoting in this post. Jst, before you post complicated posts like this, you might hit the "Preview" button and see what it looks like before you send it off. Also, it is polite to note who it is you are quoting. The conversation is going nice and peaceful right now but little things like this can start irritating the locals.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 08:12:06 PM by ParkingPlaces »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1393
  • Darwins +24/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #161 on: May 05, 2012, 08:02:55 PM »
And yes.  Some people like living in extreme conditions.  Gotta have some love for them too.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5011
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #162 on: May 05, 2012, 08:04:42 PM »
God is the one that created the aliens lol.  Sorry, I am running out of steam for this post.  Are you suggesting this is the case?

Maybe. How do I tell the difference between what an an advanced alien millions or billions of years ahead of us can do or a god? I'm asking you to help me out because I don't know how to tell the difference. I'm all ears ....

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #163 on: May 05, 2012, 08:11:24 PM »


What sort of evidence would convince you?

That answer is simple: a deity would be omniscient enough to know what would convince me, and omnipotent enough to do it.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline HAL

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5011
  • Darwins +98/-17
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #164 on: May 05, 2012, 08:17:38 PM »
That answer is simple: a deity would be omniscient enough to know what would convince me, and omnipotent enough to do it.

Right. Why is Jstweb asking us? His deity should already know what we need and respond accordingly. This ain't rocket science (for his god anyway).

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #165 on: May 05, 2012, 08:33:04 PM »
First off Jst, could you please quote properly in your responses. It's hard to tell who you're talking to when there's name on the quotes.

I have no problem giving up a little freedom if I get something worthwhile in return.  I pay taxes.

However you're still dodging. It's not giving up a little freedom. It's giving up all of your freedom that you'd be doing with god.

You are right.  But whatever they may be I will gladly accept them if I could live forever in a paradise.  I would give up a lot of freedom for that.  I mean do you think everyone's just going to be gathered around and be bowing down to God all day?  That's not what he had Adam do.  Knowing what I know now, I would change places with Adam in a heartbeat and I would be perfectly happy not eating fruit off one tree.  At least I don't have to pay taxes anymore.

Again, you're dodging away from the point. The point being that you have no way of knowing any of this. You don't know that you will go to paradise, you don't know that you'd like gods idea of paradise if you went there. You know nothing. It's all just a fantasy that you've created in your head to make yourself feel better. You don't really know what gods laws are, you just have what you want to think are gods laws. Since there are over 3800 other Christian denominations and millions of other individual Christians who all think differently, the chance that any of this is going to be the way you want to think it is becomes exceedingly remote. And that's even operating under the assumption that any of it even exists in the first place, which is so remote its pretty much an impossibility.

You are right.  Without the entire knowledge of God I could not hope to accurately define him no more than I can define you.

Then any claim you make is nothing more than an uneducated opinion. You cannot possibly have any truth, nor do you have any means to acquire it. If you cannot even define what a god is, then you don't actually know a god when you see/feel one.

I cannot see God no more than I can see the wind.  But, like the wind, I can feel him and see what he does.  And I don't need a scientist to tell me that wind exists.

Crazy people feel and see things all the time. That does not make them true. So again we come to the question of what separates your beliefs from those of a lunatic.

 The wind can easily be measured. We can see it's effects. We can test for it. We can study it. And I can show you those tests and those results, and you can do those tests yourself and get the same evidence. That's how you find out the truth. Your way can't possibly lead you to the truth. At best it will give you something that you want to believe that you call the truth to make you feel better.

And, as above, you admit that you don't know what your god is. So you don't really "feel". You feel something, and you've arbirtrarily decided to call it a god.

This is according to you own magic decoder ring.

And the opposite is true only according to yours. So what does that tell you about your beliefs that two people can take the same information and reach different conclusions that are both equally right?

And why can you only dodge questions and points instead of actually responding to them?

Because man did not listen to the creator and was forced to leave his home.

But you said this whole world was created just for us? So we are at home. You haven't actually answered the question. If it was created solely for us, why can we not actually live here unaided? Why is it so deadly for us to be here if it was created just for us? And why is there only this incredibly small portion that we have access to?

What else can enjoy all the earth has to offer?

How do you know that we can enjoy all that the earth has to offer? Other animals can see things that we can't. Hear things that we can't. Taste things that we can't. Do things that we can't. What makes you say that we're in some special privileged position?

How do you actually know any of this? Again, beyond your own willingness to make bling assertions without thought or knowledge.

Then quit beating me over the head with science.  Science and God are not mutually exclusive.  According to the lack scientific evidence to prove or disprove God I choose to believe in him because of other outside sources. 

Then again, you lie when you claim to want truth. Unless you can demonstrate some means for your "other sources" to allow a person to distinguish fact from fantasy.

And you still need a working definition of what a god is so that you can recognize it when you see it. Do you see the problem?

You are trying to claim truth in regards to something that you can't prove, can't see, can't know, can't understand, and can't even define. That's not a religion, Jst. It's a psychosis.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 08:56:37 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6274
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #166 on: May 05, 2012, 08:47:20 PM »
Jst

I have to agree with HAL and Hatter. I am a decent human being. Kind, helpful, honest, etc. But I don't believe in your god, or any other. Since many do believe in a god, it apparently isn't too hard, yet nothing in my experience has even hinted at such a divine force.

Omnipotent dudes shouldn't have that hard a time convincing me. If your God is out there, he should easily be able to tweak a nerve cell or otherwise adjust me so that I can see his light, or whatever it is. But the stimulus available right now (and that has been available over the last half century of my being an atheist) doesn't even come close to making me question whether or not I am wrong. Or if you are right.

I tend to assume that one of the reasons I am not a believer is that I am genetically less inclined to swallow tall tales or something. I can read a Greek myth or a Hebrew one and interpret it about the same way. An old story told for reasons that made sense thousands of years ago but that does not now. Toss in what I consider solid evidence that is contrary to biblical claims and I quickly run out of reasons for questioning my lack of belief.

If he is real, he knows this. He can fix it. He's had a long time. I'm waiting right now if he wants to send me some clear signal or modify my genes or just whop me upside the head and tell me to wise up. I assume I'll still be waiting the day I die.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1393
  • Darwins +24/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #167 on: May 05, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »
But how can you dismiss all those claiming to have their prayers answered?  Some sure.  But all?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6274
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #168 on: May 05, 2012, 09:35:45 PM »
But how can you dismiss all those claiming to have their prayers answered?  Some sure.  But all?

I use the "You gotta be kidding me" method.  ;D

Having never seen a prayer answered, I don't know how to respond. Yes, people I know have prayed for someone to get through a surgical procedure or prayed that someone have a safe trip or something, but that doesn't really count. I went through surgery without prayer and came out just fine. I travel every day without prayer and haven't had a serious accident in my life.

If you can think of a prayer that has been answered where no other possible explanation exists, let me know. Because right now I can't think of any case where that has happened.

Please note: We're not real big on anecdotal evidence around here.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #169 on: May 05, 2012, 09:40:11 PM »
But how can you dismiss all those claiming to have their prayers answered?  Some sure.  But all?

Simple, no evidence. How many times do theists people pray for things, and how many times do those prayers actually come true?

The answer is that people get what they pray for with the same consistency as people who don't pray get what they want. If prayer actually had any effect we could see such a thing happening. We would see that religious people recovered from disease more often, or did better financially, or happier. We don't see that however. Religious people do just as bad (sometimes worse) than non-religious people.

There's a reason for the webistes name. Why won't god heal amputees is a question aimed at pointin out that the Christian god never answers prayers in a way that couldn't have easily been dumb luck or the work of humans. The healing of an amputee would be something fairly obvious as a miracle because humans cannot normally regrow limbs. So why don't we see that EVER. What we do is people experiencing events with perfectly natural explanations and then saying it happened because they prayed for it. We get people who claim to have seen limbs regrow, but it always happens when there is no way to document it, or if they claim that there's video they can never produce such things when called upon.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1393
  • Darwins +24/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #170 on: May 05, 2012, 10:04:15 PM »
Quote
So why don't we see that EVER.

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4560
  • Darwins +103/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #171 on: May 05, 2012, 10:45:20 PM »
Quote
So why don't we see that EVER.

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?
Have you tried Allah,Odin,Zuess or the myriad of other gods in the place of your God? All these other gods promise to protect their followers and punish those who question them. Like your God,they ALL have failed. See if your God was real and he could terminate evil by placing Satan in hell he would do it in a nano-second.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #172 on: May 05, 2012, 10:56:35 PM »

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?

To answer your profoundly idiotic question, no. I have not tried to find an answer other than god exists. Because I care about actually knowing the truth. Not what I might want to be true. I did not go looking for any particular answer, I followed the facts where they led and accepted the conclusion they pointed to. Should other facts contradict that conclusion I will revise it appropriately. Because that is how you find the truth. Not by looking for a specific answer and then clinging to it like a baby who is too afraid of losing his favourite toy. Your question is just so utterly ridiculous I can't even think of a way to give it the proper mocking that it deserves. You're resorting to essentially asking me to assume god exists first, and then try to find evidence that he exists. Which while it goes a long way towards proving that you're every bit as mentally challenged as I'm becoming increasingly convinced you are, is also incredibly insulting. Because you imply that I formed my own opinion by outright deciding god is false and then looking for evidence to prove that (because it clearly never occurs to you that I just honestly looked and there was no evidence there, no of course not). Which would be equally ridiculous and might I add a very personal and politely meant "Fuck you" for implying it.

Let me put it this way. I spent my whole life growing up watching and reading fantasy and sci fiction. I write it (not as a professional as of yet). My first actual book read was an a illustrated collection of all of the greek myths. I read the bible for the first time when I was twelve just out of curiosity and read the Quran at fourteen. I have studied Roman mythology, Greek mythology, Christian mythology, Persian and Norse as well. Because I've always taken an active interest in religious history. My avatar image on this forum has always been of an angel of some type because I've always especially been fond of the lore. I spend most of my time playing Dungeons and Dragons, RPG games, and thinking about supernatural stories that I've read and might write.

Point being, I have spent pretty much the entirety of my life reading ,writing, thinking, playing games about, gods and the supernatural. I've spent more hours than is probably healthy sitting around wishing that I was living in a world where such things are real and I could actually talk to gods or go out with a hot vampire girl. I have often truly, fervently wished that fairies and gods existed, that I could really learn magic and cast spells. However.........

I am also a grown adult with a fully-functioning brain and I can comprehend the difference between fantasy and reality. Even with all of the different faiths I've looked at, the mythologies I've seen I have never witnessed one single piece of evidence that even begins to support any of them. What I have seen is that you all make the same claims and the same arguments. Every religion, every person who believes in magic, or crystals, or the secret, you all make the exact same claims about why you know that you are right and the other has it wrong. And most importantly, you all make the same excuses. And not a one of you can provide even a single piece of real evidence to support anything that you say. You can't even define your own god yet you claim to know what he wants and says. It's a farce. And a truly sad one that is an embarrassment to our species.

I have seen how obviously manufactured your faith is. The book of Revelations is plagarised shamelessly from the Zoroastrian faith and their prophecies of the end times. The NT view of god and satan is the effect of the Zoroastrian faith on the Jews being filtered through cultural exchange. The virgin birth is lifted from too many older legends to even begin to count, and the Christian god is a holdover from an older pantheon of gods that modern Christians want to conveniently forget about. Christmas is not Jesus birthday. It is a pagan festival holiday stolen by the church. You can tell that your god is made by humans because of his human limitations. He is petty, vengeful, small-minded, uncompromising, and unbelievably stupid.

There is not one thing that people like you have ever produced that hints at your faith have any basis to it. If you had any actual truth to your faith you could show it to me. You could put some evidence right in front of me and use it show that your claims had at least some veracity. Even if I didn't necessarily accept your god hypothesis you could at least show me some evidence which could validate the conclusion. Yet you can't. You fail now, you failed before, you always fail. That's the one consistent thing about people like you. You always fail
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 11:04:25 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6274
  • Darwins +722/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #173 on: May 05, 2012, 11:02:02 PM »
Quote
So why don't we see that EVER.

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?

Jst

My answer is no. I've never had any reason to look elsewhere. Were there only one god story, world-wide, with a consistency of word and that matched my view of world and the universe closely, I might look at it all very differently. But given that most every culture has its own creation story and most every culture has its own custom version of a god story (not counting Buddhists and a few others), the lack of consistency has lead me to believe each and every one is a myth. Nothing in the world that I live in and experience points to any other probable explanation.

That I should, at your behest or any other believers request, strategically choose one of thousands of stories and claim it to be the real one is asking far too much. Any Hindu could give me just as much a reason to believe their religion as you can give me to believe yours. The same goes for Baptists and Mormons and Lutherans and Muslims and Zoroastrians. To ask me to choose from a group that large when none has anything to offer but some variation on the belief theme and the requirement of some version of faith is to ask far too much.

Why a real live actual god would have to use the same dependence on belief and faith that all the obviously false gods require is beyond me.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.