Author Topic: praying to god to make himself known  (Read 6893 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2012, 06:22:54 PM »
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But if he is an all-knowing, all-powerful, god, he knew that this was going to happen.

He also knows how it is going to end.  With perfection.

Perfection for whom?  That dead baby and her mom?  For those of us who do not keep your god's commandments?  For the people who go to heaven while their loved ones don't?  Will it be perfection for them too?

Or just perfection for god, who reaches the end-game that he had been looking forward to?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2012, 06:24:12 PM »
Of course this woman did not lose her faith. She would say something like what you just did. But somewhere in her head she knows that if she had been in Europe, Japan, or some other place with better living conditions and health care, her baby probably would not have died. Guess god listens to rich peoples' prayers more often. Especially in those godless socialist countries.

Things like infant mortality rate are not randomly distributed accross the earth. The more devoutly religious a country or region is, the more likely it is for your baby to die. The more a place relies on science and less on religion, the more likely it is that your baby won't die. Strange how that works the opposite of the way religious people say it should.... &)
 

Different things affect different parts of the world.  In these rich countries people suffer because of greed.  And there is no need to exclusively rely on science or God.  Luke himself was a doctor.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2012, 06:26:25 PM »
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Perfection for whom?

For anyone that wishes to be a subject of his kingdom or a ruler in it.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 06:28:27 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2012, 06:32:45 PM »
He also knows how it is going to end. 

Then what's the point of it all?

To allow humans to come to their own conclusions rather than force one upon them.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2012, 06:33:38 PM »
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But if he is an all-knowing, all-powerful, god, he knew that this was going to happen.

He also knows how it is going to end.  With perfection.

So, Jehovah God knew, even before that baby was born, that it would only live a few months and then die in horrible agony from typhoid. He knew that the distraught mama would spend her last peso on medicine, and go without food, and pray herself into a state of collapse while her little precious child died. He can do anything, so he could have saved that baby, but he decided he would rather just watch it die.

Because it will all be perfect. Sometime later. For those who still believe in him, even after their babies die.  ;)

What a sick bastard.  >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2012, 06:37:18 PM »
He also knows how it is going to end. 

Quote
To allow humans to come to their own conclusions rather than force one upon them.

If He knows the ending then the humans cannot come to their own conclusions. So again, why go through it all?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2012, 06:44:13 PM »
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So, Jehovah God knew, even before that baby was born, that it would only live a few months and then die in horrible agony from typhoid. He knew that the distraught mama would spend her last peso on medicine, and go without food, and pray herself into a state of collapse while her little precious child died. He can do anything, so he could have saved that baby, but he decided he would rather just watch it die.

He probably knew this was going to happen since Adam and Eve first removed mankind from his protection.

Quote
If He knows the ending then the humans cannot come to their own conclusions. So again, why go through it all?

I guess to give humans the illusion of free will.  Why doesn't he just speed up time?  I see him viewing it as all existing at once since he is not restrained by time.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2012, 06:45:49 PM »
I guess to give humans the illusion of free will.

Why?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2012, 06:48:00 PM »
I guess to give humans the illusion of free will.

Why?

So they can be happy.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Zankuu

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »
Total omniscience is a logical deathtrap for the Christian god.

As HAL has pointed out, if Yahweh has total omniscience then the freewill he supposedly created was a lie. Not to mention he's a sociopathic ass for all the pointless pain and suffering.

If, however, you want to say God has a limited omniscience, per himself, and cannot see the future, well then you've got ground to stand on, Jst. However, a limited omniscience does take away some of God's revelatory prowess, and many Christians won't allow that because their God can "do all things" and whatnot.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2012, 06:49:24 PM »
I guess to give humans the illusion of free will.

Why?

No point to it. Just for snicks and giggles.  &)

If I ever did meet such a being, he would get a swift kick to the junk from me for letting all that suffering go on. Worship this! >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2012, 06:51:21 PM »
Total omniscience is a logical deathtrap for the Christian god.

If, however, you want to say God has a limited omniscience, per himself, and cannot see the future, well then you've got ground to stand on, Jst. However, a limited omniscience does take away some of God's revelatory prowess, and many Christians won't allow that because their God can "do all things" and whatnot.

This is actually my belief.  Although I believe those limitations are set by himself.  But even an illusion of free will would be better than no free will at all.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2012, 06:53:35 PM »
So they can be happy.

Many humans are not happy though, even though under your theology they have the illusion of free will, which you said was given so they could be happy. Something went wrong.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2012, 06:53:43 PM »
The Bible says he could cause the rocks to stand up and praise him.  Would you rather be a human or a rock?  This also demonstrates that praise is not his ultimate goal.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2012, 06:55:43 PM »
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Many humans are not happy though, even though under your theology they have the illusion of free will, which you said was given so they could be happy. Something went wrong.

That free will is not total.  They are free to live or die.  Those that choose to live must abide by certain things, but beyond that they have free will.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2012, 07:00:43 PM »
That free will is not total.  They are free to live or die.  Those that choose to live must abide by certain things, but beyond that they have free will.

I don't understand "That free will is not total."

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2012, 07:05:56 PM »
In order for mankind, as a whole, to keep on living they must give up certain parts of their free will in order to abide by the rules for life.  So only to the extent that they must abide by these rules is there free will limited.

Just as human governments make laws so God's kingdom has laws.  If one wishes to live in this kingdom then you must abide by it's laws.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2012, 07:08:07 PM »
In order for mankind, as a whole, to keep on living they must give up certain parts of their free will in order to abide by the rules for life.  So only to the extent that they must abide by these rules is there free will limited.

Just as human governments make laws so God's kingdom has laws.  If one wishes to live in this kingdom then you must abide by it's laws.

Then it isn't actually free. It's circumstantial.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2012, 07:09:16 PM »
Just as human governments make laws so God's kingdom has laws.  If one wishes to live in this kingdom then you must abide by it's laws.

It's not the same. Humans can choose to have the laws changed, even while having to obey the laws in place now. They have a say in what laws are passed, by representatives. What if we don't like god's laws? How do we send representatives to change the laws which aren't working well?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2012, 07:09:25 PM »
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Then it isn't actually free. It's circumstantial.
Well I guess.  In order to live one must not commit suicide.  And this is what mankind is doing.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2012, 07:11:46 PM »
Just as human governments make laws so God's kingdom has laws.  If one wishes to live in this kingdom then you must abide by it's laws.

It's not the same. Humans can choose to have the laws changed, even while having to obey the laws in place now. They have a say in what laws are passed, by representatives. What if we don't like god's laws? How do we send representatives to change the laws which aren't working well?

Not all governments work this way.  And humans have had thousands of years to try their own laws.  Soon it will be God's turn.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2012, 07:12:44 PM »
Although he is only going to take 1000 years to prove himself.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2012, 07:14:11 PM »
Not all governments work this way. 

True - some are dictatorships, some are run by elected representatives in which each person has a vote.

Which do you prefer?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »
I prefer a theocracy.

Substituting man's law for God's would only lead right back down the path to death.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2012, 07:23:27 PM »
And what God is really asking is not that much.  Love him and love each other and love yourself.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2012, 07:26:33 PM »
I prefer a theocracy.

How is that different than a dictatorship? Each one has a person (entity) who claims to know what is best for the people. What if the people disagree? In neither do the people have a say.

Offline Quesi

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2012, 07:26:46 PM »
I prefer a theocracy.

Substituting man's law for God's would only lead right back down the path to death.

Wow.  Really?  And who gets to interpret God's law? 

Are there any theocracies you particularly admire?  Saudi Arabia?  Spain under the Spanish Inquisition?  The Pharaohs of Egypt?  Of do you just like theocracy as a theory in which you imagine your very own interpretations of god's word being implemented?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2012, 07:29:58 PM »
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How is that different than a dictatorship? Each one has a person (entity) who claims to know what is best for the people. What if the people disagree? In neither do the people have a say.

You are free not to participate if you do not like the laws.

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Wow.  Really?  And who gets to interpret God's law?

Jesus primarily will do so.  He is the king of this kingdom.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 07:32:12 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline HAL

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2012, 07:32:51 PM »
You are free not to participate if you do not like the laws.

Oh I see - there is no punishment for not participating? I assume that's what you mean by "free not to participate". Otherwise it would be a misstatement on your part.