Author Topic: praying to god to make himself known  (Read 6962 times)

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Offline velkyn

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praying to god to make himself known
« on: May 02, 2012, 03:08:54 PM »
Many many Christians have exhorted those who don't agree with them to just ask their god to show himself.  MagicMiles did just recently in The Shelter. 

The magic formula always seems to ask this god "sincerely".  There are often other claims of how to do it, on the knees, with certain prayers but almost all of them require the ask to be "sincere".  Now, how do christiand determine who is truly "sincere"?  Well, it seems that it requires becomign a Christian who totally agrees with them.  If you dare to report no answer, then you weren't doing it "right".   It's all the fault of the unbeliever praying, just like it's the fault of the unbeliever when a charlatan fails in their claims of mind-reading or talking with the dead. The theists, rarely if ever, admit that their god might not exist, or simply might be intentionally damning those who don't get a response.  Indeed, they usually just ignore those who have plenty of evidence their claims of contacting god are simply wrong.   

But in order to give the Christians one more chance, can we get a agreed upon set of factors that can be used to see who is praying right for this god's attention?  Christians you are up.  Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?   
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Offline Nick

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 03:42:03 PM »
Simple, you are sincere when you buy into the bs.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Omen

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 03:48:38 PM »
The insertion of whether or not your being sincere isn't done in your favor, its purely to the benefit of the person trying to qualify whether or not to take you seriously or to dismiss you out of hand.  It works like a tautology, god only responds if you're sincere and if you're not sincere god won't respond.

It's actually pretty insulting.
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Offline Barcode

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 03:57:53 PM »
Humility and purity go a long way.  Think of it as the spiritual equivolent to entering the holy of hollies in the OT.  Remember, even in sincerity can one find hypocracy... (see Matthew 7:21-23)

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Offline Omen

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 04:10:27 PM »
Humility and purity go a long way.  Think of it as the spiritual equivolent to entering the holy of hollies in the OT.  Remember, even in sincerity can one find hypocracy... (see Matthew 7:21-23)

This doesn't tell anyone anything, except include another platitude to dismiss anyone out of hand that doesn't meet the standards of the theist's confirmation bias.  We still remain in the situation where the rationale are so circular and comprised of so much rhetorical reinforcement as to make it impossible to determine if you live in an existence where those claims are true versus living in an existence where those claims are not true.

Plus, there is a certain amount of hypocritical delusion tied to the idea that if only you would 'pray' or take the belief 'sincerely' then god would respond.  The theist isn't at all concerned about the evidential case for their own beliefs, that would need to be addressed regardless if a magic-man voice spoke in our heads.  The magic-man voice doesn't magically make inconvenient facts go away such as history entirely contradicting biblical myth or science conflicting with virtually every claim in the bible.  What it boils down too is that the theist ( or apologist ) is delivering a delusional and polemical set of false ideas about what it means to not believe their religious claim.  This is also supported by the fact that few theist/apologist are equipped to operate outside the use of their own rhetoric, they can't imagine that you can honestly say that evolution has nothing to do with atheism for example.  They can't imagine that the philosophical arguments about god are not limited to just their god or no god. Etc. etc.

Personally, I think every effort should be made to immediately disabuse an apologist of their imagined polemics and rhetorical nonsense at the starting gate.  Otherwise you're dealing with a one sided conversation with a person who's beliefs can't be separated from someone who is mentally ill or literally lying to you.  Having presupposed every condition, they only need to continue making up each new and absurd rationalization however possible.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:13:30 PM by Omen »
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Offline Babdah

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 04:57:47 PM »
Give me $50 bucks and Ill show you the magic formula that always seems to "work" for me.... ;)
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 09:11:04 PM »
Quote
Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?

Simple.  God decides if it is sincere.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebrews 11:6

Faith would be backed up by action.  For example, if a person asks God for wisdom then their faith might be demonstrated by searching the Bible for wisdom.  In this case, the Bible shows for one to gain wisdom from God one MUST do both simultaneously.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 09:12:29 PM »
I would like to say that the prayer in itself demonstrates some amount of faith.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 09:14:31 PM »
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Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?

Simple.  God decides if it is sincere.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebrews 11:6

Faith would be backed up by action.  For example, if a person asks God for wisdom then their faith might be demonstrated by searching the Bible for wisdom.  In this case, the Bible shows for one to gain wisdom from God one MUST do both simultaneously.

You didn't answer the question at all.
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2012, 09:41:12 PM »
Quote
Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?

Simple.  God decides if it is sincere.

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebrews 11:6

Faith would be backed up by action.  For example, if a person asks God for wisdom then their faith might be demonstrated by searching the Bible for wisdom.  In this case, the Bible shows for one to gain wisdom from God one MUST do both simultaneously.
How come it works for child-fucking priests?....oh and I love that line about searching the Bible for wisdom....priceless
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:43:03 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 10:01:14 PM »
I believe I did answer the question to anyone sincerely wanting an answer.  If someone sincerely wants clarification then I will provide it.  Omen I do not believe you sincerely want an answer.  I believe you wish to start an argument.

Quote
How come it works for child-fucking priests?....oh and I love that line about searching the Bible for wisdom....priceless

It is obvious, at least to me, that such priests have no wisdom at all.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2012, 10:05:26 PM »
what does wisdom have to do with belief in God......many a minister and many a televangelists have been caught having both gay and straight extramarital affairs.....Do they just not care,God will forgive them if they believe Jesus is their Lord.....?no?

 They can still have strong faith and belief in God while fucking over people in their trust
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2012, 10:29:48 PM »
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what does wisdom have to do with belief in God

Because if a person had the wisdom that comes from God they would not do such things.

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They can still have strong faith and belief in God while fucking over people in their trust

Belief in God and faith in God is two seperate things.  Satan has belief in God but not faith.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2012, 10:37:07 PM »
So do you mean faith that God will do the right thing? ....because if Satan were real he would not NEED faith in God because he has actually seen and worked with God. Satan does not need faith to believe God is real......so what exactly do you mean by faith?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2012, 11:35:44 PM »
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So do you mean faith that God will do the right thing?

Yes this is largely it.  But faith must also motivate one to act in accordance with this.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Poseidon

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2012, 11:56:07 PM »
We've gone slightly astray. Vel used the word "sincere". That is not the same as faith or belief. It might be a combination of faith and belief and some more connotations.  Maybe we should first agree on what exactly constitutes sincerity.

I do not agree with much of what JST writes, however I suspect that he is correct that god can be the only arbiter of the sincerity of one of his earthbound slaves. Seems to me that god is pretty damned hardnosed about this because he is not answering many prayers.


Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2012, 12:35:14 AM »
While I believe God knows our hearts better than we, I do believe the person saying the prayer has some idea if he's sincere.  However more than sincerity is required for a prayer to be answered.  I think this is where the confusion comes into place.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2012, 07:37:33 AM »
While I believe God knows our hearts better than we, I do believe the person saying the prayer has some idea if he's sincere.  However more than sincerity is required for a prayer to be answered. 

Then we need to take a step back and answer the question that comes before it:

How does one make oneself more sincere? 

This is an important question, Jst - if it is impossible to voluntarily increase one's sincerity, then it means that a whole lot of people are being ignored by Yahweh for something they have no control over.  And, that, of course, would make Yahweh Not A Nice Guy - withholding salvation for something someone can't control?  That's a pretty mean thing to do.

So I guess there must be something pretty simple one can do to become more sincere.  Sadly, Christians will never tell us what that something actually IS.  Its as if they don't WANT us to get an answer, sometimes.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2012, 09:15:25 AM »
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Tell me how you can tell if I'm sincere and it not be that I suddenly agree with you totally?

Simple.  God decides if it is sincere.


Circular reasoning.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2012, 10:32:21 AM »
Humility and purity go a long way.  Think of it as the spiritual equivolent to entering the holy of hollies in the OT.  Remember, even in sincerity can one find hypocracy... (see Matthew 7:21-23)

really? 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’(Q) will enter the kingdom of heaven,(R) but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.(S) 22 Many will say to me on that day,(T) ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’(U) 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’(V)Wiki  JC seems to be saying the opposite, that there is no sincereity in hypocrisy.  This is a curious bit though.  We have people claiming to have done magic in this god's name which would indicage that this god gives his powers to hypocrites and either doesn't care or is too stupid to notice.   

and jst, you've just proven my point, the utter deceitfulness and ignorance of a Christian.  You've relied on the exact nonsense that all theists do.  You try to claim that only a positive answer means one is appropriately "sincere", and ignored the other equally valid options,  your god is an ass and no one has the right "forumula" or your god doesn't exist and theists are delusional.

So since I know I'm sincere, why no answer from your god?  And what is this more than sincerity that you've now claimed (and just like every other theist there's always another excuse)?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2012, 02:08:21 PM »
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and jst, you've just proven my point, the utter deceitfulness and ignorance of a Christian.  You've relied on the exact nonsense that all theists do.  You try to claim that only a positive answer means one is appropriately "sincere", and ignored the other equally valid options,  your god is an ass and no one has the right "forumula" or your god doesn't exist and theists are delusional.

You yourself have provided the key to understanding answered prayer.

Quote
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’(Q) will enter the kingdom of heaven,(R) but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.(S) 22 Many will say to me on that day,(T) ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’(U) 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’(V)Wiki

It can also be said that not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will have their prayers answered.  If I sincerely pray for someone to die of a heart attack that does not force God to answer such a prayer.  In fact, he would find such a prayer "detestable."

The belief that God would answer a prayer solely based on sincerity shows ignorance in what the Bible actually teaches about prayer.

And sometimes God leaves prayers, seemingly, unanswered.  However, the first requirement must be that we are praying about something that God would approve of answering.  I mean I could sincerely pray for the earth to spontaneously combust.  However, the Bible shows that no such prayer will ever even be considered.
 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2012, 02:27:01 PM »
Quote
So do you mean faith that God will do the right thing?

Yes this is largely it.  But faith must also motivate one to act in accordance with this.
No Satan knows from what we can see that he abandons God BECAUSE God fails to do the right thing....way to go edit the quote so this looks like what I asked.....pathetic
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:31:11 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2012, 02:29:48 PM »
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and jst, you've just proven my point, the utter deceitfulness and ignorance of a Christian.  You've relied on the exact nonsense that all theists do.  You try to claim that only a positive answer means one is appropriately "sincere", and ignored the other equally valid options,  your god is an ass and no one has the right "forumula" or your god doesn't exist and theists are delusional.

You yourself have provided the key to understanding answered prayer.

Quote
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’(Q) will enter the kingdom of heaven,(R) but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.(S) 22 Many will say to me on that day,(T) ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’(U) 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’(V)Wiki

It can also be said that not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will have their prayers answered.  If I sincerely pray for someone to die of a heart attack that does not force God to answer such a prayer.  In fact, he would find such a prayer "detestable."

The belief that God would answer a prayer solely based on sincerity shows ignorance in what the Bible actually teaches about prayer.

And sometimes God leaves prayers, seemingly, unanswered.  However, the first requirement must be that we are praying about something that God would approve of answering.  I mean I could sincerely pray for the earth to spontaneously combust.  However, the Bible shows that no such prayer will ever even be considered.
The book of Job proves that evil acts are NOT something God shy's away from,then there is the flood and all those he has ordered killed by his followers,animal and human sacrifice.......your excuses are running thin
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:32:00 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2012, 02:32:38 PM »
You yourself have provided the key to understanding answered prayer.
Quote
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’(Q) will enter the kingdom of heaven,(R) but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.(S) 22 Many will say to me on that day,(T) ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’(U) 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’(V)Wiki
It can also be said that not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will have their prayers answered.  If I sincerely pray for someone to die of a heart attack that does not force God to answer such a prayer.  In fact, he would find such a prayer "detestable."


Nothing new here, Jst.  All theists use that as an excuse. That someone isn’t praying “right” (the good ol’ OneTrueChristiantm[/sup} claim) or for the wrong thing or it isn’t in JC’s name or Gods’ name (the magic spell excuse), or God just doesn’t feel like it and give you something else instead or it’s not what God “wants”.  As for what your god finds “detestable” other believers in it have no problem being sure that this god will and does answer.  Like these nice ladies who want God to give people breast cancer. http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/2012/04/mrff-press-release-womens-prayer-group-give-them-breast-cancer-in-jesus-name/ 

And prayers by believers for god to harm others: 
Quote
2 Kings 6: 18 As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, “Strike this army with blindness.” So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked.
I’m sure you’ll excuse this because the “enemy” was bad.  So thinks everyone who is against him, just like those “nice” ladies.  We have various “patriarchs” asking for their god to harm others to allow them to win wars. etc.  Now, he does answer them often in the myths and shows that asking him for harm to come to someone isn’t “detestable” at all.  God’s quite the steppinfetchit in the bible but in real life, not so much and the most likely reason, he doesn’t exist.
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The belief that God would answer a prayer solely based on sincerity shows ignorance in what the Bible actually teaches about prayer.
Unfortunately for you, the bible has few rules on what prayer requires and who can do it. We have the characters in the bible saying “knock and the door shall be opened”,  “*anything* you ask in my name God will give it to you” “a father would not give a son who asked for a fish a snake, so think of how god will give you what you ask”,  “the mountain shall move”, etc.  At best, one can say that it has to be within this god’s “will”, but if it is already in the “plan” it makes no sense to pray at all.  Indeed, Christians should never pray if they really think that their god already knows how things are going to be and what they need.  But that’s not the case at all.  We have Jehovah’s Witnesses and all other types of Christians claiming that prayer gets you things.  But when asked for evidence, they have nothing.  Not one actual event where coincidence or human action can’t be shown to be the only thing occurring.
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And sometimes God leaves prayers, seemingly, unanswered.  However, the first requirement must be that we are praying about something that God would approve of answering.  I mean I could sincerely pray for the earth to spontaneously combust.  However, the Bible shows that no such prayer will ever even be considered.
  Which is funny as hell.  Then what’s the point of praying, jst?  And no your bible doesn’t’ show that such a prayer would never even be considered.  That’s the self-editing theist making excuses, that their god would never do anything that was ridiculous since such a prayer would fail and the theist would look silly.   It goes back to the title of the forum “why won’t god heal amputees?”  Theists like you constantly claim your prayers are answered and healings are done. But there are no healings for anything that is bluntly obvious like an amputation.  We get claims of people having cancer claimed, claims of backaches healed, claims of everything that can’t be easily seen. Poor amputees get nothing with all of this supposed healing going around and oh the theist have to make up all sorts of excuses for that, to avoid admitting that their god does nothing. Just like you. 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2012, 02:42:53 PM »
It can also be said that not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will have their prayers answered.  If I sincerely pray for someone to die of a heart attack that does not force God to answer such a prayer.  In fact, he would find such a prayer "detestable."


First, in fact? you are using the term loosely. You are claiming to know the mind of a being you have never met.

Secondly, why would you tink he would find it detestable? After all this is supposed to be the same deity that demanded a blood asacrifice of someone(even if it was still him) to avert his own wrath against his own creations for not living up to his own standards like an omnicient being would have know they would have done. This is the same deity that deliberately places the tree in the garden of eden with the knowledge of knowing right from wrong, and punishes the two for making a bad choice because THEY DIDN'T KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, not only that but decides that this punishment must extend to their decendents? A deity in One Samuel 15:18-19 gets angry with Saul that his instructions to kill everybody, including women and chilren who was an Amalekite, wasn't followed to the letter. I could continue but you get the point. Why would a God that commands wanton destruction and blood, find such a prayer so bad?


« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 03:11:45 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2012, 03:10:16 PM »
When his disciples asked Jesus how to pray he recited what is commonly known as the "Lord's Prayer".  Hence Jesus himself showed about which things are proper to pray about.  By this he also listed the order of importance.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline lomolo

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2012, 03:20:46 PM »
When his disciples asked Jesus how to pray he recited what is commonly known as the "Lord's Prayer".  Hence Jesus himself showed about which things are proper to pray about.  By this he also listed the order of importance.
And the sky is blue. What does that have to do with anything?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2012, 03:28:56 PM »
Since this conversation is not about the sky then the answer is nothing.  I do believe the topic is prayer however or perhaps that is just my "interpretation".
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jdawg70

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Re: praying to god to make himself known
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 07:03:11 PM »
When his disciples asked Jesus how to pray he recited what is commonly known as the "Lord's Prayer".  Hence Jesus himself showed about which things are proper to pray about.  By this he also listed the order of importance.

Does that mean that, when I pray, I should have a similar poetic structure to The Lord's Prayer?  Or that my prayers should always ask god not to lead me into temptation or somesuch?  Or that it is fitting to request things like food but nothing outside of that?  Or food is part of a bigger regime of acceptable subject matter to pray about, say, like that which a human needs in order to survive?  Is it the intro that is important?  The closing?

If Jesus actually wanted to teach something, he would have explained *why* The Lord's Prayer is a proper way to pray.  It seems a lot like if someone asked me how to build a functional internal combustion engine and I pointed to a little 4-banger and said "like that".  Do you think that I actually answered the question, or would it have been better if I explained a little something about the construction of the engine?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

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