Is there a supernatural?

[jdawg70]

He believes the numbers vary in the millions. There's nothing else I could provide until I have answers. Sorry. :/ That doesn't entirely relate to supernatural beings anyway.

But...that provides nothing.  When you say these numbers are estimates, what do you mean?  What are the numbers estimating?

Everyone has very valid statements in their own right, but how could one truly believe there are no beings beyond us?

I find it extremely likely that there are beings 'beyond' us, though of course that depends on what you mean by 'beyond'.  As in, more intelligent, probably.  Able to survive a wider temperature range, probably.  Sense a wider range of the EM spectrum, probably.

And so forth.  You know, billions of galaxies with billions of stars with billions of years of time and all that jazz.

And then you write:

Especially a creator, one who has unlimited capabilities beyond our imagination.

How the bleep did the word 'especially' follow from that?

Is not the universe itself an embodiment of unlimited capabilities, beyond our imagination? If something we know exists has unlimited capabilities, does that not beg to question it's very existence? Although the universe can be examined, would not the creator of the universe mystify us even further?

What do you mean by 'unlimited capabilities'?  I don't follow.

To Azdgari;
Unless of course we did know the spiritual entities, only society rejects whatever truth that may be, I.E., a loving nurturing God.

How about:
...only society rejects whatever truth that may be, I.E., a hateful, raging torturer demongod.

[nogodsforme]

Before I jump up and down on volt's neck for using a computer, one of the most obvious examples of the benefits of the scientific worldview, in order to communicate to the world that science doesn't work, let me say that volt has been a very, very good guest theist.


Stay with us, volt. 

[Ambassador Pony]

Volt's young, and yet, hasn't gotten all hot-headed.

I like Volt.

His parents on the other hand... 

[JeffPT]

Volt's young, and yet, hasn't gotten all hot-headed.

Maybe because nobody has turned up the heat on him. 

Well although it may be unidentified, it still exists, what category would that be placed in? Ghosts, Spirits or am I simply to say I experienced something I can't understand?

Why is the third option not the best option in this case?  After all, ghosts and spirits are unproven entities, and seeing as you're human, there's probably millions of things you don't fully understand.  (You used the wording 'can't understand', which carries with it implications that if someone were to explain it to you, you still wouldn't get it.  You can not prove that to be the case, therefore, the more proper wording is 'don't understand'.) .  That seems to be the option that makes the most logical sense, doesn't it?  I mean, realistically, in the millions of different situations we experience in our lives, a supernatural explanation never trumps a natural one, does it?  If you pour coffee and it goes into the cup, is it because ghosts and spirits push it there or because gravity pulls the coffee down?  If you miss the cup, is it because the ghosts and spirits pushed the coffee away or simply because you missed the damn cup?  If you turn your car key and the motor starts, is it because fairies live in the engine, or because of internal combustion?  And if it doesn't start, is that because God doesn't want you to get in your car, or is it more likely that something in the engine isn't working, like your 96 Bonnie.  Everything in your life is explainable naturally, yet you take this one thing that you don't fully understand, but for which there could be dozens of possible fully natural explanations, and you consider it supernatural.  I don't understand that.  I can't. 

In the end, it remains true that something unnatural occurred.

If you are still talking about your car thing, then can you please point out what was unnatural about it?  You hear sounds every day of your life.  Your trunk is designed to open and close.  Nothing unnatural occurred volt.  If your car lifted into the air and danced a jig, or the roof came off and was replaced by a flying carpet, or the glass suddenly shattered and reformed in place, or the car turned into a giant dragon and flew away, THEN you could claim something unexplainABLE happened.  What happened to you is unexplainED.  You can't explain it, but that does not mean it is unexplainABLE.  Frankly, to think of your car thing as evidence of a supernatural event is patently ridiculous and I can't believe more people are not calling you out on the idiocy of it.  It's just horrible evidence.  If you don't believe me, just ask yourself what you would say to someone who had the EXACT same experience as you, but asked Zeus to get rid of whatever was in their car.  Or Allah.  Or Vishnu.  Wouldn't you laugh at them?  Maybe not to their face, but you'd think they were pretty messed up I bet. 

Therefore I consider it supernatural, which is highly relevant to the thread.

And that is an unreasonable conclusion to come to. Really, it is.  Nothing supernatural happened.  You heard 2 sounds that you don't know where they came from.  Your trunk opened.  That's it.  I just don't understand how people like you think.  It's just unreal that this is convincing evidence of the Christian God to you.  It boggles my mind how you can think like that.  If I said I was standing in my house on Christmas eve in the middle of the night and I heard 2 loud bangs and a door opened, if I said this was my evidence for Santa Claus, seriously, what would you think of me?  Is that really evidence of something supernatural?   

Am I the only one who has experienced this? Certainly not in this world, I don't have to stretch the topic all the way to the Christian God, although I have and that is my belief, I simply began to post in this thread to talk about supernatural beings.

Exactly.  You have been conditioned to think of things like this as evidence of the Christian God.  If you lived in another country, you'd have asked Vishu to remove whatever it was from your car. 

Read my signature, please.  And please understand that just because you don't fully understand 2 bangs and an open trunk, doesn't even remotely mean that the supernatural was responsible.  Every single rational explanation that you can think of is better than 'Goddidit'.  Every single one.  Don't you think the evidence should be extraordinary?  This is as ordinary as it gets. 

Why do we have ants? They're apart of our ecosystem. I should think it obvious that they are simply another piece of life.  They simply, like us, co-exist within the fibers of the universe.

Now you're making sense.  But the implications in what you say here is that if ants are simply another piece of life that co-exist with us, then they are no more or less special in the grand scheme of things than we are.  I'd agree with you there. 

Ghosts/Demons are considered supernatural, why? Because they are not bound by our physics and laws, they are a mystery upon mankind, and yet, they're notorious.

Ghosts and demons were primitive attempts to explain something that people don't fully understand.  They aren't real either, though I do believe people can experience things that they don't understand, or that they misinterpret due to cultural conditioning.  Again, read my signature.   Once we understand the phenomena that causes people to believe they have seen ghosts and spirits, they won't be considered supernatural anymore. 

Why so often would you hear of them?

Because people have been culturally indoctrinated to think of unexplained things in ways which make sense to them. 

Is that religions fault? Remember, although religion may or may not be your forte, the bible is the most notorious book of all.

Being popular has no bearing on whether or not it holds fact versus fiction.  The Quran is also quite popular and you don't believe in that book, do you? 

I would argue that History has the same level of importance as Science, if not more so.

No.  History is written by the victors, which brings in a bias that science does its best to eliminate.  With history, therefore it is a bit more difficult to discern what actually happened in all events that are considered historical.  Science can be repeated in the present and the future to verify it's truth and eliminate all forms of bias through the peer review system. 

The bible follows much the same pattern as history.  The victors (the orthodox church) chose which books were to be considered canonical.  The people who had those books copied (by hand) made changes to them (some intentional, some not).  There were dozens of other gospels once considered canonical by dozens of other sects of Christians, which no longer are. 

What did our ancestors know that we did not? Now just because they lived before us, does not mean they were blubbering idiots.

No, but in general, they knew nothing of what we know now.  And that makes them more susceptible to believing in bull shit, because humans are more fond of making up answers than seem (at a base level) coherent than having no answers at all. 

[volt]

Thank you guys! Even though we don't have the same views, doesn't mean we can't get along. I certainly hope I can maintain that charisma for you. I happen to enjoyed speaking to you. Now unto the next thing I prepared for you..

Well JeffPT, I would urge you to read this. Your statements are tough, what a critically thinking mind. Certainly some of this material would be amusing.

To each their own Jdawg.

Some will believe that if a God exists, that He is hateful and desires pain for you, others will believe the opposite. Some will not believe at all. The fact remains, no one could ever dispose the possibility of God. Doesn't matter what religion. What does that serve for? Only that there is a percentage that He exists. Would you be willing to bet that percentage is true? Or even more possibly that X religion pertains knowledge of the True God? Possibly not, but by relinquishing that percentage, you've just given up the Possibility of finding the truth about existence. Some might say, who cares? But that sounds rather ignorant doesn't it? So might claiming the universe was begat by an explosion or the very same that a Deity created it. What seems more likely to you? The universe and all it's intricacy exists by mere chance or is there purpose for the structure we live in? How might one divide the truth from a lie? Science is a healthy notion of that. Just because I’m theist, doesn't mean I think Science is of the devil. Now also you should realize that man has accumulated the discoveries of science based on theories, some critically dissected, others not so much.(Turtles theory.) And when a theory is proven wrong, it becomes updated. Not everything you know of science today, will remain the same 20 years from now. What else can we use to better understand our universe? History. Now Science, as collectively impressive as is, corresponds with History. What is our greatest source of History? The Bible.
 
History, is a key element in discovering more about the origins of life. Without written text, we wouldn't know anything that happened 400 years ago. We'd all forget by now, that generation would be dead. So what goods can we find by digging through History? What piece of History specifically proclaims the origins of mankind? The Bible, the most notorious book in existence. Why is the bible so notorious? One might say, well it served as law code in uncivilized times. That may very well be true, but it also holds record of civilization's past. What might one learn from said civilizations? Well, According to Job 40:15-24; NLT(2007)

Take a look at Behemoth,
    which I made, just as I made you.
    It eats grass like an ox.
16 See its powerful loins
    and the muscles of its belly.
17 Its tail is as strong as a cedar.
    The sinews of its thighs are knit tightly together.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze.
    Its limbs are bars of iron.
19 It is a prime example of God’s handiwork,
    and only its Creator can threaten it.
20 The mountains offer it their best food,
    where all the wild animals play.
21 It lies under the lotus plants,
    hidden by the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotus plants give it shade
    among the willows beside the stream.
23 It is not disturbed by the raging river,
    not concerned when the swelling Jordan rushes around it.
24 No one can catch it off guard
    or put a ring in its nose and lead it away.

The Greek Old Testament, LXX was written in 321BC. And this is clearly the NLT(2007), but keep this in mind;

Modern translations of the bible refer to Behemoth as possibly an elephant or a hippo in the description, but Job is describing an Animal with the tail of a Cedar. So this animal had a tail the size of a tree. I don’t think that’s an elephant or hippo.

Although I received the scripture from a modern bible, I was able to recover this verse translated in English from the original LXX Bible. 321BC
“Behold now Behemoth (wild beastsLXX), which I made with you.
Source, totheends.com/dino

The rest I have for you in Greek, when placed in Google translate, it still doesn’t come out just right, so here’s definitive evidence this is well Greek, supposedly the original from (321 BC, you'll be seeing that a lot). If someone could truly translate the entire thing, that would be awesome. My source is BlueLetterBible.Org;

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Job&c=40&v=15&t=LXX#15

That’s all I could recover unfortunately, but notice how even the bibles in 321BC refers to an animal dubbed Behemoth. Translations between bibles are done either by thought per thought or word for word. It is possible both have been applied to these verses over time. However, that does not change the fact that a beast named Behemoth existed in 321BC. Possibly with the tail the size of a tree, no animal in our century displays such a feat.

He also was not harmed by a raging river, according to verse 23. It grazed like an Ox, so it must be an herbivore or an omnivore and it emphasizes the muscles of his belly. Notice also this, that the hills provide it's produce. Sounds awfully tall.  What animal might that be? Perhaps a Dinosaur, but they weren’t supposed to exist for several millions of years now. Just as well, I thought Dinosaurs were supposedly discovered in 1821AD. But the stories vary to possibly 1822, 1830 and even 1841. Surely, still thousands of years after the days of The Greek Old Testament. Let's continue;

According to Isaiah 40:22 NLT(2007)
“God sits above the circle of the earth. The people below seem like grasshoppers to him! He spreads out the heavens like a curtain and makes his tent from them.”

Okay, Isaiah was alive during the 8th Century BC. Claiming the earth was round, thousands of years before it was discovered by Christopher Columbus. Could a man, whose greatest mobility was sail boat and horse possess this knowledge or did it truly come from a Deity?

Here is the original Greek Version 321BC

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=40&v=22&t=LXX#22

Job 26:7; NLT(2007)
God stretches the northern sky over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.
Here is the Greek version:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Job&c=26&v=7&t=LXX#top

If these three prime examples were not strong enough proof that the Jewish faith was onto something, you’d simply be ignoring History. Although it's possible these scriptures were altered over time. But, I provided for you the semi-original verses, if we could translate them, we'd have the answer. Now whose to say these dates are correct? We’d have to trust that one to the books, more research is required. The Bible is not as base as society thinks. There’s a reason it’s the highest valued book in the world. Could History have known this on their own or was it the work of a Deity? We should all research it some more.

Lol the verses wouldn't translate through the post. I'll post the links instead. Just wait for the edit.

[JeffPT]

Some will believe that if a God exists, that He is hateful and desires pain for you, others will believe the opposite. Some will not believe at all.

All, however, must consider their reasons for believing any of those 3.  When looking at our current planet and universe... If we have massive amounts of suffering and massive amounts of pleasure in the same world, and all of that can be explained through natural means, which of the 3 is more likely? 

The fact remains, no one could ever dispose the possibility of God. Doesn't matter what religion. What does that serve for? Only that there is a percentage that He exists. Would you be willing to bet that percentage is true? Or even more possibly that X religion pertains knowledge of the True God? Possibly not, but by relinquishing that percentage, you've just given up the Possibility of finding the truth about existence.

True!  But that still means you could be wrong and that there really is no God.  If you've decided that God is the truth and that nothing can shake that, then it is quite possible that you are the one who has given up the possibility of finding the truth about existence. 

Some might say, who cares?

On the contrary.  I think its the most important question we could possibly ask. 

What seems more likely to you? The universe and all it's intricacy exists by mere chance or is there purpose for the structure we live in?

Given the immensity of space, the harshness of our planet, the similarities we share with other living things on the planet, the universe's hostility toward life (99.9999% of it will instantly kill us), the answer is the latter.  I actually believe it's ridiculous to think that there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy and hundreds of billions of galaxies, and that all of that was made specifically for the little bit of life that lives on the outer crust of the third chunk of rock out from a completely regular star. 

There is no purpose.  We are a wonderful happenstance, and we should enjoy it for what it is. 

And when a theory is proven wrong, it becomes updated.

Or abandoned completely.  Can you tell me a part of your God theory that can be proven wrong?  Not that is HAS been proven wrong, but that CAN be proven wrong? Such as the turtles thing you alluded to.  Since we can go to outer space and check that stuff, its been proven wrong, unless the turtles are invisible!.  What about the Christian claim has the capability of being proven wrong?  Is God a falsifiable claim? 

What is our greatest source of History? The Bible.

No. Wrong.  Whomever taught you that was not telling you the truth.  If this is where you're going to go next, you should stop now and rethink your next bit.  You're talking to atheists here, not Christians.  The bible is not a source of history.  It's fiction. 

What do you know of the history of the bible, volt? 
 

[DumpsterFire]

Is there a world renowned method to discovering the supernatural? Religion is often referred to as such a method. Most have tried, many did not receive their answers. Why? Because their lack of faith derives from the inability to see, but I have seen. What does that do for me? Consolidates my faith, it isn't empty words full of empty promise, not in my life, why? Because I've seen.

The problem with your approach, volt, is that you already had faith in a god, and were just looking for confirmation of that faith. This is known as confirmation bias, and it is an intrinsic part of all theistic belief.

You may have been going through a period where you began to doubt the religion you have been completely engulfed in since birth[1], but even then the farthest you drifted was to "not a Jesus freak", which to me means you're still clutching the Bible, just no longer thumping it. So you began "tempting" god with your behaviour, the entire time desperately wanting to be proven wrong! And the first (and any other) time something out of the ordinary took place you attributed it to god and received the confirmation you so eagerly sought. Its that simple.

Let's examine the event that has made you absolutely, 100% certain that a god exists. First, after a quick Googling I discovered that you are not the only one to have ever experienced a phantom '96 Bonneville trunk opening:

Apr 07, 2000 - Philadelphia, PA - Body, Trunk Lid
 TRUNK LID OPENS ON ITS OWN AND SYSTEM MONITOR DOES NOT INDICATE IT IS OPEN, OR IF DOORS ARE AJAR.

I found several other references to intermittent trunk latch problems as well, so your experience was not terribly uncommon for this make/model. Interesting that none seem to point to god, but rather to an electrical fault (although one customer said this about her mechanic's take on it):

He told me one day that he thought my car was possessed .... the trunk opened and the alarm went off when he was in the office with the keys. The trunk will quite often open on it's own

So I guess that's close.

The point is that most people who have an issue such as a random trunk opening rightly assume it is due to a mechanical or electronic fault in the vehicle, but a person who's actively seeking a sign from god will assume it is a supernatural occurrence.

When it comes down to it, if you want real result in a supernatural way, you have to actively press in. Begin to test the boundaries of what the spiritual realm could respond to. Just keep pressing in. Do whatever it takes need you. My life is a testament of it in itself. If nothing more, it has touched my life and I would never be able say supernatural beings don't exist.

I dare say the members of this forum have tested your god's boundaries far more than your tiny efforts at it[2], yet somehow we remain unsmited, unrepentant, and unconvinced. Do you see how much easier it is to convince yourself something is supernatural when you already believe in the supernatural?

1.	Being a preacher's kid kinda makes it tough to be objective about your beliefs, right?
2.	What could be a greater affront to your god than loudly proclaiming to the world that either he doesn't exist, or he's a total A-hole? The sex, booze, and swearing are just icing on the cake, man!

[nogodsforme]

volt, do you know who wrote the bible? Do you know when it was written and who edited it?

One of the first things you learn in history is to evaluate the veracity of sources. You do that by looking for corroborating evidence, ie other documents that say the same thing as the source you have. The bible has no such evidence.

That is, there are no contemporary Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Chinese, Indian or other accounts that say the same things as the bible. No Garden of Eden, no Abraham and burning bush, no great worldwide flood killing all life on earth, no darkening skies or raising of the dead, no plagues resulting in all Jewish slaves leaving Egypt, no parting of the Red Sea, no guy named Jesus performing miracles in front of multitudes. None of this is corroborated in other source material from the same time periods supposedly covered by the bible.

The other problem is that the bible is full of stuff that is simply not true. We know that human life did not begin with one man and one woman. We know that humans and apes share a common primate ancestor. There were no giant humans, but there were millions of years of dinosaurs and other reptiles of every description. We know that nobody could ever get all of the existing animal species on one boat. Not possible. The people who wrote the bible stories did not know that these things were impossible.

We know that they did not happen because there is no evidence of any of them. No written records. No geological records. No biological records. The evidence shows entirely different things, no sign of a global flood, plenty of fossil records of different primate species, tree ring data, ice core data, layers of sediments with simpler organisms coming before more complex ones, etc. We have thousands of years of evidence that shows none of the bible stuff happening.

Either 1) the bible is full of miraculous but true events that, strangely, nobody else noticed at the time, and that left no sign of having happened, or 2) the bible is a bunch of legends, poems and myths made by a particular culture at a particular point in time, preserved over the centuries for political and cultural reasons. Like the sacred texts of all other religions.

One is waaaay more likely, don't you think?

[volt]

Okay, to JeffPt;

Okay, I can't tell you the difference between the Bible being fictional and Historic, other than Jesus was a real person, who died and his corpse disappeared.

That Noah's ark truly occurred, for there are remains found upon a turkish mountain top;

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/

Discovery of fossils in the Sahara desert reported

http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/encyclopedia/fossil/kd/?ar_a=5&ar_r=3(Scroll down a bit.)

I don't think the bible could be proven wrong, if so, would anyone know it?

To Dumpsterfire;

You really had my head turned on the bonnie reports. wow. Although that may be true and let's say it was just a flaw, how could it possibly extend three feet and remain there? It propped open a couple inches, every single time. I owned the car for close to 2 years.

Hopefully I'd get to know as many of you as I can. Had you been involved in my personal life, you would begin to see the church community I'm involved in. If you'd stomach it lol. And I know over a time, you will begin to see the things I'm talkin about.

Was anyone interested at all in my post about Behemoth, the Earth being round and it floating in space? It's actually quite the discovery, if those Greek translations repeat relatively the same claims as NLT, The bible claimed the earth was round and in space 1000's of years ago. That's really something.

Okay to noGodsforme;

Read what I just posted. There are reports of possible floods, possible remains of the Ark. There is also the shroud of Turin;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_Turin

So there are those three. Also note the Greek Translations I offered to everyone. It's as clear as day they are Greek, when you place them in google translate, it recognizes it as Greek. It's Greek. Greek was the first translated language after Hebrew. A realllly long time ago, as we would all know reading my last post. Now to say it is legitimately the LXX would be amazing, but none of us have even translated it yet. Whose to say it wouldn't contain the very same text our modern bible's possess today. Put it to the test.

And with that I need some sleep lol. A very interesting day talking to you guys, I'll be much busier tomorrow though, I may get a post or two in here. Thank you

[jdawg70]

Okay, to JeffPt;

Okay, I can't tell you the difference between the Bible being fictional and Historic, other than Jesus was a real person, who died and his corpse disappeared.

That Noah's ark truly occurred, for there are remains found upon a turkish mountain top;

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/

Did you take notice of the

UPDATE: Experts Suspect Ark Is a Hoax

link at the top of the story you posted?

Discovery of fossils in the Sahara desert reported

http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/encyclopedia/fossil/kd/?ar_a=5&ar_r=3(Scroll down a bit.)

I don't think the bible could be proven wrong, if so, would anyone know it?

My reading comprehension skills can be a little off sometimes, but I'm not certain how claim of the bible not being able to be proven wrong follows from that link?  Or were you just segueing into a new topic?

Was anyone interested at all in my post about Behemoth, the Earth being round and it floating in space? It's actually quite the discovery, if those Greek translations repeat relatively the same claims as NLT, The bible claimed the earth was round and in space 1000's of years ago. That's really something.

Not really.  I think the result will be too many disparate independent conversations occurring in a single thread.

[volt]

You're right on that Jdawg and I also did not notice the link at all. I didn't proof read it, because I had heard the story previously years ago. That was an inconsistency on my part. I was also referring to a new topic there and yes, it would branch off into other topics. Though I felt it strongly supported the possibility of the supernatural, so in that view, I felt it relevant.

I also have seen over the course of years, this community frequently asking for evidence that a bible verse said this or that it meant that. You know, people want bare bones, I can't argue with that. So I searched pretty hard for you guys to see that. It's an amazing discovery really, if it holds true. I'll look into it for myself.

[Anfauglir]

....Although playing with the wiring may very well have done so, I took a walk around the car to ensure the entire thing was fastened and locked. Again, when a trunk is popped open, say I did mess up something with the wiring, it wouldn't rise 3 feet in the air. It'd pop open a couple inches.

I just love the way you pick and choose what you believe!

You've gone on at length about the way that science is just trial and error, how we can't really know anything.....

.....and yet, you are 100% convinced that there is NO WAY AT ALL that a mechanical device could open all the way up!!!

Tell me volt - on what basis are you so confident that a trunk can ONLY, EVER open mechanically by just a couple inches?

[volt]

Common knowledge. When you pop the trunk or even the hood for that matter, does it fully extend or does it 'pop' a few inches? There's a reason for that saying. Now I realize some vehicles, say a caravan, you will see the trunk fully extend. This is clearly not the case. Now in the realm of possibility, is this a plausible case? I'll give it that, but what does that have to say for a fist pounding sensation? There was clearly nothing there. It only requires a fraction a second to check your mirrors.

[screwtape]

Well although it may be unidentified, it still exists,

Yes, it still exists.  It is fair to say "something" happened.  In your story you said you heard "fists" hitting your car.  But you don't know they were fists.  They could have been elbows, or heads, or cocconuts, or slabs of Spam(tm).  You don't know what they were, and that is the point.  Filling in the blanks with anything is a gigantic error and completely unwarranted.

or am I simply to say I experienced something I can't understand?

Yes, this.

In the end, it remains true that something unnatural occurred.

No, it isn't.  You don't know what it was so saying it was unnatural is not a fair statement.  In order to know whether something is natural or unnatural (whatever that means), you have to know what it is. 

If I showed you a closed cardboard box and you heard something inside move, you could not say whether the contents of the box were natural or unnatural because you would not know what it was.  It could be a toad, which would be natural, or it could be a homunculus, would would not be natural.  Do you dig?

Therefore I consider it supernatural, which is highly relevant to the thread.

Yeah, well, I think I've explained why your judgment is flawed. 

By the way, you did not seem to have anything to say about my magical cell phone.

[screwtape]

Well, According to Job 40:15-24; NLT(2007)
...
Modern translations of the bible refer to Behemoth as possibly an elephant or a hippo in the description, but Job is describing an Animal with the tail of a Cedar. So this animal had a tail the size of a tree. I don’t think that’s an elephant or hippo.

No, it doesn't say it has a tail of Cedar.  In the quote you used, it said "as strong as cedar", not "as big as".  You need to read more carefully.  It also said it's bones are "tubes of bronze".  No known animal had bones of bronze.  It said its limbs were "bars of iron".  No known animal had limbs of iron.  Are those statements to be taken literally?  I don't think so.

According to Isaiah 40:22 NLT(2007)
“God sits above the circle of the earth. The people below seem like grasshoppers to him! He spreads out the heavens like a curtain and makes his tent from them.”

Okay, Isaiah was alive during the 8th Century BC. Claiming the earth was round, thousands of years before it was discovered by Christopher Columbus. Could a man, whose greatest mobility was sail boat and horse possess this knowledge or did it truly come from a Deity?

1. the greek is irrelevant.  You need the hebrew.  The word used in the OT for heavens is "firmament".  The hebrew word is "raqiya"[1] which means "a solid expanse".  It implies imagery of a metal sheet that was expanded by beating out.  It is the word specifically used in genesis 1:6-8 for the creation of the world.

2. Understanding this model of the world shows the hebrews thought the world was a flat disc.  They thought the sky was a solid dome, above which was a celestial sea.  This makes the tent analogy make more sense. Your job 26:7 quote also makes more sense understading this.  The northern sky was "expanded", like a beaten sheet of metal.  Later in Job, 37:18 it continues that imagery, saying: "can you join him spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror cast of bronze?"  This is an inaccurate model of the world. 

3. Isaiah was not written in the 8th century, BCE.  Parts of it were.  Other parts of it were written in the 7th and 6th centuries BCE. The part you quoted was written in the 6th century BCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah
By around the 6th century BCE the Greeks and Indians at least suspected the Earth was spherical.  By the 4th century BCE they were pretty sure of it. The hebrews were behind the times even then.  To cling to 2500 year old ideas and discard all the things we have since learned is foolish.

4. For more information on the hebrew flat earth model, see this site:
http://www.goatstar.org/the-bibles-flat-earthsolid-sky-dome-universe/#flat%20earth

If these three prime examples were not strong enough proof that the Jewish faith was onto something, you’d simply be ignoring History.

Actually, that would be you who is mistaken.

1.	http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7549&t=KJV

[Ambassador Pony]

From

That Noah's ark truly occurred, for there are remains found upon a turkish mountain top;

to

You're right on that Jdawg and I also did not notice the link at all. I didn't proof read it, because I had heard the story previously years ago. That was an inconsistency on my part.

"I heard it from someone one time" is such a slam dunk for some folk. Don't stop being a nice guy, Volt. Some people did a very bad thing to you, in your life. I think you can overcome it, but it will take some hard work.

[DumpsterFire]

To Dumpsterfire;

You really had my head turned on the bonnie reports. wow. Although that may be true and let's say it was just a flaw, how could it possibly extend three feet and remain there? It propped open a couple inches, every single time. I owned the car for close to 2 years.

None of the sites I found specifically mentioned the trunk lid flying wide open. If that was the one and only time your trunk ever flew completely open in the whole time you had the car[1], then I guess it was a very unusual occurrence, indeed. However, as Screwtape already mentioned, just because something has no apparent or readily available explanation does not mean that it is unexplainable, just unexplained.

How many times in the less than 2 years you owned the Bonnie did you even have to open the trunk? Unless I've got a flat or need to put some luggage in there I can literally go several months without needing to open my trunk. A very small sample size here may render your point moot.

Even if you never do find the true explanation, don't you have to ask if this is the best god can do? I work on electronic/mechanical equipment every day, and I can assure you that it occasionally malfunctions in inexplicable ways that cannot be duplicated. If that's all it takes for you to be utterly convinced of god's existence, I'd say your standards are entirely too low.

1.	This would only pertain to the times it was opened remotely (via key fob or in-cab release button), of course.

[JeffPT]

Okay, I can't tell you the difference between the Bible being fictional and Historic, other than Jesus was a real person, who died and his corpse disappeared.

Even if I grant you that Jesus was a real person who died and his corpse disappeared (which I have no idea if that's true), the most likely reason for the disappearance of his corpse is A. It was resurrected and thus vanished in a puff of magic smoke, or B. Someone moved it?  Seriously, which is the most reasonable, rational conclusion?  If that exact same event happened today (a man died and his corpse disappeared) would you think it was a supernatural event or that there was a reasonable, rational, natural explanation? 

Please understand that when you are assessing these types of claims, if you are really looking for the truth, then it behooves you to use the exact same mental processes to determine likelihood versus unlikelihood for ALL of these types of claims.  In short, you can't say that if the same event happened today, its more likely a natural explanation, while at the same time saying that 2000 years ago, it was more likely a supernatural one.  You're just using bias then.   

I don't think the bible could be proven wrong, if so, would anyone know it?

The bible has unbelievable, extraordinary claims inside.  When a book (any book) like that comes along, the most logical reason for those claims is that they are not real and that the story is fiction.  This isn't new news to anyone, is it?  Unless you can prove that the bible is fact, then we are allowed to formulate the same conclusion about the bible that we do about the Iliad and the Odyssey and every other book with unbelievable claims.  That it's most likely fiction.

And couldn't you say the exact same thing about the Muslim holy book? 

You've been lied to your whole life about God, volt.  There are 2 sides to the argument and it's time you heard the other side and took it seriously.  The atheist argument is simply far superior to the God theory. 

[JesusHChrist]

I like Volt.

You're just sayin' that because you want to marinate him in a light soy ginger sauce, BBQ until tender and then serve 'em up to your godless friends.

Come closer! Closer!

That's right....

[Aaron123]

volt, I don't think you commented on this post of mine.

For now, assuming the story is true, why should I be impressed?

Here, you prayed to god to perform a miracle, and he................ opens the trunk to a car.  Really?  You prayed for a miracle, and all he does is a parlor trick?  Why not regenerate an amputee's limb, restore the world trade centers, reveal the location of the ark of the covenant, give a working blueprint of the starship Enterprise to scientists and enginners? 

God used to do all sorts of impressive things in the bible.  But now, it seems like all he does is minor tricks that does little good.  He used to turn a woman into salt, part the red sea, feed thousands with one loft of bread.  Now he opens trunks and imprint his image in tree stumps.  Does that really seems right to you?

Any thoughts on that?

[JesusHChrist]

Read what I just posted. There are reports of possible floods, possible remains of the Ark. There is also the shroud of Turin;

Sorry there volt, but you are 0 for 3.

There is no evidence of any sort for a global flood. Zero. Google for antarctic ice cores for contravening evidence. No way you can have 700K years of ice cores and reconcile that with a global flood. Now the typical trick of a theist is to back peddle and say it was a "local" flood. But then, how is that miraculous and how does that jibe with the story in the Bible? Answer: it isn't and doesn't. Strike one.

No remains of any ark have ever been discovered. Zero. There are reports of this or that discovery and how the Turkish government is keeping it secret! They're Muslims you see! Ark discovery is just another tall tale with no evidence. Wake me up when this "Ark" is on display in a legitimate museum. I won't hold my breath. Strike two.

On the Shroud. Really? 

The Shroud of Turin, a linen cloth commonly associated with the crucifixion and burial of Jesus Christ, has undergone numerous scientific tests, the most notable of which is radiocarbon dating, in an attempt to determine the relic's authenticity. In 1988, scientists at three separate laboratories dated samples from the Shroud to a range of 1260–1390CE.[1]
These results are generally accepted by the scientific community. However this dating has been questioned by some, and doubts have been raised in particular regarding the representivity of the sample that was taken for testing. The various alternative hypotheses have all been refuted by scientists.

More stuff and nonsense for the gullible; the medieval version of Jesus showing up in a tortilla. You see, they didn't have Mexican food back then. Hard to imagine I know. Strike three.

Now how about some more strikes? How many debunked myths will it take?

Here's a nice one -- There is no evidence for the Exodus. That's kinda important don't you think? Sure there are apologists trying to shore up the story, but it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. No evidence for Moses, 1 million+ jews wandering around in the desert, enslaved by Egyptians. Zero.

Then, there is the virgin birth story. Look up the mistranslation of the word "alma" in Matthew. That will be a hoot! The whole virgin birth prophecy thing - debunked.

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/septuagint.html

So, there you have it. No Adam and Eve (much less a Steve), no flood, no ark, no Exodus, no virgin birth prophecy and so on. But wait! There's more. Much more. Like pulling a thread on a sweater, once you start the whole thing unravels.

For a critical thinker, I would hope that is enough, but the chains of belief are strong. Look at those silly Mormons thinking Jesus was in the New World and Native Americans are one of the lost tribes of Israel. Modern genetics destroys their myths, but does that change anything? Nope.

[Anfauglir]

Common knowledge......

Ah - that same common knowledge that says "something unusual happen?  MUST be demons!"

Read what I said again, volt.  I'm asking you how you KNOW that a trunk - something designed to open - could under NO circumstances have on this occasion - a time when you were messing with the electrics for several hours in the dark, when a cat has bounced off it twice - have sprung itself in an unusual manner?

Now, if you are saying it opened further than in was designed to go - if it popped so hard that it wrenched out of the brackets - then I'd be interested.  But a trunk that opens within the limits of what it was designed to do?  Seriously, if this is your best piece of evidence for the "supernatural" then you're wasting your time here.

[nogodsforme]

Okay to noGodsforme;

Read what I just posted. There are reports of possible floods, possible remains of the Ark. There is also the shroud of Turin;

The Noah's Ark story could not possibly be true. Let's look at the reasons for that, shall we? I'm off work today.

1)Floods leave real evidence behind. Centuries from now, scientists will be able to tell that Hurricane Katrina flooded New Orleans, because of the kind of geological evidence left behind. A really big flood leaves a lot of evidence behind. A global flood would leave unmistakeable evidence behind, all over the world. A global flood that killed every living thing on the planet?

There would be mountains of human and animal remains in layers of sedimentary rock all over the place. Some of it would be fossilized and preserved like the remains at Vesuvius. There would be debris everywhere.  You would not need to have it written in a book to know it had happened. It would be an unmistakeable part of the history of the planet. It would be lesson one in every earth science class. Every geology book in the world would have photos, descriptions, diagrams. But geological research has never found anything like that. Anywhere. Ever.

Have you seen photos of a big flood like in Bangladesh this year? http://www.google.com/search?q=flood+bangladesh+2012&hl=en&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7202UMbtFa6ayQHPtoHYCQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=881&bih=661 

Look at those photos and multiply it by several million worldwide. Even centuries into the future, the evidence of this flood will still be clearly visible on the landscape. So, the story where a few people gathered a sample of every animal species that existed onto a handmade wooden boat and survived for several weeks in a torrential global flood that killed millions of other people and all other animal life did not really happen.

Obviously, a farmer or sheep herder somewhere could have made a boat and put some farm animals on it and saved his family from some local flood. That has probably happened thousands of times in human history, since there are lots of human civilizations that have experienced floods. People like to live near water, for some strange reason....

So, no evidence that it happened=it did not happen.

[kcrady]

Okay, two things Dante;

your original question, it's a good one and has definately been asked before. The reasons I believe He doesn't take care of everything, is because we have the free will to make our own decisions.

This does not work as an answer for three reasons:

One:

"Free will" is irrelevant if one does not have the ability to make an informed decision.  Let's say you're single, and you see a person of the preferred gender whom you would like to have a romantic relationship with, but you want to do your best to respect their free will.  Would you send them "Secret Admirer" notes crafted to look like they were written by friends of theirs, perhaps as a prank, make sure they never see you and in general give them plenty of room to doubt both your existence and, if you exist, your goodness as a person (say, by making some of the notes creepy and rape-tastic, like Numbers 31:17-18 and throwing in some torture porn)?  Would you see to it that they get several different, contradictory bios and descriptions of you so that they would have the "free will" to pick which one they like best?  If they didn't pick the right one, would you kidnap them, lock them in your basement, and slowly torture them for the rest of their life?

My Magic 8-Ball says 'no.'  If you wouldn't approach a relationship in this way, why do you think Yahweh, who is presumably far more intelligent and omni-capable and moral than you, would?

Two:

The Bible does not say that Yahweh let us move out and make our own decisions, we're grownups now and it's all up to us. 

If, when Abraham got Hagar pregnant so that the 'child of promise' could be produced, and Yahweh said, "Finally!  It sure took him long enough!  What, did he think I was a genie or something?"... 

If Moses had needed to work out some practical deal with the Pharaoh to leave Egypt, and pay the ferry man to transport the Israelites over the Red Sea... 

If Joshua had been instructed to build siege engines and patiently batter down the walls of Jericho... 

If Elijah had just had a debate with the prophets of Ba'al... 

If the Prophets had said, "Actually, an alliance with Egypt against Assyria is good pragmatic geopolitics.  We should do that instead of hoping Yahweh will save us..." 

If Jesus had told his disciples to start passing out the bread and fish from their lunch boxes, and this caused those among the 5,000 who had food to feel guilty about hoarding it, so that everybody shared and everybody ended up having plenty... 

If he and his disciples had actually had to dig through their pocket lint to come up with the Temple tax instead of plucking a gold coin out of a fish's mouth... 

If Jesus had taught that prayer was for contemplation and the quest for inner peace rather than moving mountains...

...then you'd have a leg to stand on with this answer.  In fact, we wouldn't even be asking the question.  Problem is, the Bible claims, anviliciously, over and over and over again, that we are not to rely on natural human means, but trust in the deliverance of Yahweh's supernatural power.  Your problem isn't that we're making unreasonable demands.  It's that your religion's advertising copy (the Bible) makes unreasonable claims.

Three:

It is far from self-evident that "free will" of any sort is a Biblical teaching.  Read the ninth chapter of the Book of Romans, or google "Calvinism."  Even apart from 5-Point Calvinistic predestination, the Doctrine of Hell removes free will from the equation.  If a mugger holds you up at gunpoint and says "Your money or your life!" and you hand your wallet over, that's not a voluntary donation. 

Yup, it's the most coincidental answer, what else could I say? As for the kids in third world nations, I can't give you that answer either, but no one would question that about a God had he taken care of it Himself.

So the question is, why Doesn't daddy do everything?

No, the question is, why doesn't 'Daddy' do anything?  See, I live on my own and take care of my own needs, but I also have no reason to doubt my father's existence.  I don't have hundreds of different, contradictory stories about dozens of different men with different nationalities, bios, etc. who might be my father and no evidence that any of them exist, as we do in the case of the many deities people worship and have worshiped.  It keeps going back to your advertizing copy.  If the Bible wasn't full of pillars of cloud and fire and miraculous healings and fire coming down from the sky and big booming heavenly voices and talking animals and all the rest, and claims that we should let Daddy do everything instead of worrying about what we shall eat and drink and wear (for does Daddy not take care of the sparrows and the lilies of the field?) and not bother planning for the future (for each day has enough trouble of its own)--then, once again, this question would not come up. 

It comes up because "the Christian God" is not a hands-off Deist deity that expects us to take care of ourselves and each other instead of wanting and expecting him/her to take over.  The "two boats and a helicopter" joke is not in the Bible.

[Eaten by Bears]

...car story...

Likelyhood of evidence of the supernatural: 1%

Likelyhood that someone got inside your trunk as a prank and bashed it a couple of times until it flew open, then creeped away without you noticing them: more than 1%

[Ambassador Pony]

Last Active: August 23, 2012, 09:06:22 AM

Thanks, Crady. Your Crady slaps are as good as bans, aren't they?

I'm thinking of creating a cage for you, so I can say, "release the Crady!" when I want a theist to suddenly "get busy at work", or, "have a life outside of the internet", or, "have to leave because everyone is so angry"...etc