Author Topic: Is there a supernatural?  (Read 10790 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #290 on: June 14, 2012, 11:29:57 AM »
Gill, in 1900 there were learned people who declared that science had invented or discovered all the important things in the universe. Before computers, cars, airplanes, DNA, plate tectonics, vaccines, prosthetics, phones, orthodontia, microwaves, space travel, organ transplants, neurosurgery, viagra, and on and on.

I don't have a problem if you say you don't understand X thing. My problem is when you say that nobody will ever be able to explain X thing. And that therefore X thing is a magical god being.

Also, this is a very good example of how god (who used to control life and death and the rain and the stars and everything) retreats into smaller and more esoteric corners of the unknown, as we know more and more.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Gill

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #291 on: June 14, 2012, 07:25:45 PM »
Gill, in 1900 there were learned people who declared that science had invented or discovered all the important things in the universe. Before computers, cars, airplanes, DNA, plate tectonics, vaccines, prosthetics, phones, orthodontia, microwaves, space travel, organ transplants, neurosurgery, viagra, and on and on.

I don't have a problem if you say you don't understand X thing. My problem is when you say that nobody will ever be able to explain X thing. And that therefore X thing is a magical god being.

Also, this is a very good example of how god (who used to control life and death and the rain and the stars and everything) retreats into smaller and more esoteric corners of the unknown, as we know more and more.

I never claimed anything was attributable to a 'magical god being'.   However, there are valid epistemological and metaphysical arguments about the nature and possible bounds of knowledge about thing like the mind.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #292 on: June 15, 2012, 02:06:56 PM »
Gill, in 1900 there were learned people who declared that science had invented or discovered all the important things in the universe. Before computers, cars, airplanes, DNA, plate tectonics, vaccines, prosthetics, phones, orthodontia, microwaves, space travel, organ transplants, neurosurgery, viagra, and on and on.

I don't have a problem if you say you don't understand X thing. My problem is when you say that nobody will ever be able to explain X thing. And that therefore X thing is a magical god being.

Also, this is a very good example of how god (who used to control life and death and the rain and the stars and everything) retreats into smaller and more esoteric corners of the unknown, as we know more and more.

I never claimed anything was attributable to a 'magical god being'.   However, there are valid epistemological and metaphysical arguments about the nature and possible bounds of knowledge about thing like the mind.

If we don't know something, that does not mean that we will never be able to know it. There may yet be a god-being or force or spirit of some kind out there somewhere. We just don't have the expertise or technology to detect, measure or explain it yet. That is why most atheists leave a space, tiny though it may be, for a reasonable, natural, understandable explanation of seemingly magical or supernatural phenomenon.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #293 on: June 17, 2012, 08:24:24 PM »
Gill:

We are just brushing on the surface of understanding how the mind works.  Yes, it's an alluding topic, however, once we have it nailed it will be one of the last and greatest accomplishments...  It's not that the mind is a magical fairy-tale.  We all experience our own existence.  That we know, we can study, etc.  We can analyze brain images and patterns, responses to stimuli.  Like I said, we are just starting on that journey.

The mind is different from any deity in that the only way we have said we can experience a deity is 'spiritually'.  When in fact, spirituality is a feeling on one-ness with things like nature, your surroundings, etc.  And you don't understand the reactions of the mind to certain stimuli, naturally.

The mind is something we can observe.  A deity is something we have never observed.  Real things are observational things that exist in nature.  Supernatural things cannot be observed, experienced, or felt.  Only speculated about.  Because the only evidence is - there's still a chance; that doesn't leave much room for your 'god' that used to act 1-1 with people in the past, but today - nope, nothing.  Not even an answer to prayer.

I think you need to re-think your strategy in trying to supplant some kind of notion to the rest of us that any god actually exists.  Quite frankly, everything in nature points to different realities, which is not fully understood, and our own natural existence.  No proof for something doesn't prove its existence.  Neither does misunderstanding science or physics..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #294 on: August 21, 2012, 11:51:52 PM »
Hopefully two months isn't considered a necropost, because I have a testimony about the supernatural that will remain with my the rest of my life. In case you're wondering, I am a Christian and a minister's son. I've been aware of this forum for a few years now and it's quick to see this community is strongly opinionated. That being said, I'm not seeking to dissect my testimony anymore than what was. All I can tell you, is what I experienced and how the Christian faith refers to it. You should also note, that although I'm a minister's son, I've had years of my life where I wasn't a Jesus freak. So I've been on both sides of the fence. In any case;

It was august of 2011 and I was working under the dash of my 96 Bonnie. It was at 9:00 p.m. when the situation occurred.  After a few hours of frustration, (I was very green) I began cursing out in God's name. Previously that night, 6:00 p.m. I told my mother God was just a fantasy. According to my faith, I was testing the limits. After I was cursing in God's name for several minutes, I heard a fist pound on my trunk. Startled, I checked the rear view mirrors to see who was there. There wasn't a soul to be found. The sky was dark and the wind was not blowing. After several seconds, I heard the fist hit my trunk again. After calling my mom who was at church, (about 5 minutes). I took out a large flashlight I was using. I got out of the car, only to see an empty street, need I remind you, there was no wind blowing. My car was parked infront of the house, just pasted the sidewalk. I searched across the street with my flashlight only to find nothing. I then dared to look underneath the car, only to find nothing again. Feeling anxious, I went to the driver's side door to lock the car and call it a night. After I ensured everything was locked, I shut the door and walked around the hood until I stopped next to the left side fender. Instinctively, I rested my hand on the hood and prayed aloud, "Jesus, if there's anything in this car, I pray that you'd please remove it." Instantaneously, the trunk Rose up before my very eyes. I saw the trunk hand upon it's hinges fully extended. Goose bumps coursed all over my body, a quick shiver all through my bones. I was in complete awe struck and truly witnessed the supernatural.

All I can give you is my testimony friends and I'll possess this one until my grave. I would die on this statement. Never to correct myself or change anything. Seeing is truly believing and after this night, I slowly, gradually sought the truth about God and I had found answers throughout the bible and I've had more supernatural experiences on occasion. That's my story. There's nothing like seeing the impossible happen before your very eyes.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #295 on: August 22, 2012, 05:26:47 AM »
^^^^^^^

On two occasions you heard a noise that you interpreted (IN THE DARK) to be a 'fist pound'.

Coincidentally, when you were on edge and thinking about nasty things trying to harm you, the trunk opened.

Had the trunk ever opened , for no particular reason, during the day? Maybe if you had not properly closed it a few moments before. I know I have had a few cars like that!

There is no need to have a supernatural explanation.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 05:31:55 AM by relativetruth »
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #296 on: August 22, 2012, 06:52:05 AM »
Gosh.

So, in the dark you heard "a noise" on the trunk.  Looking in the mirrors, you saw nothing.  And it was five minutes later before you actually investigated.

Any cats where you live?  No chance whatsoever that one - chased by another, perhaps? - jumped onto the trunk (making a "boom" sound) and then jumped straight off again, out of the field of view of your mirrors?  And hardly surprising that they had then gone when you checked several minutes later.

And the trunk popping?  Well, lets consider.  Your car was - at that point in time - 15 years old.  Starting to have things go wrong with it, in quite a major way....after all, you'd just spent "a few hours" working on it, not something you'd do to a car in A+ condition.  No chance at all that the trunk catch was slightly loose?  Remembering of course that it had already been thumped twice just before, according to you.  And then you leant on the car...no chance at all that that was the final slight "joggle" of the car needed to release the latch?

Nope.  It all had to be a miracle, there's no other explanation.  Your god decided to break his long-established principle of not providing evidence of his existence, and chose to directly and physically intervene in the world for the sake of someone who - a couple minutes before - had been cursing him out. 

Because that makes a LOT more sense than a cat in the dark, and a wobbly latch on a old car.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #297 on: August 22, 2012, 07:31:24 AM »
You should also note, that although I'm a minister's son, I've had years of my life where I wasn't a Jesus freak. So I've been on both sides of the fence.

No. You haven't.

That's not how human psychology works.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #298 on: August 22, 2012, 08:08:13 AM »
I've had years of my life where I wasn't a Jesus freak.

Really?  When exactly was this?  It certainly wasn't at the time when your car story is alleged to have happened, because NO atheist would hear a couple of bangs on their car and immediately jump to "Jesus, please make the demons go away".  Your indoctrination was still quite definitely live and kicking.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #299 on: August 22, 2012, 09:22:51 AM »

Instinctively, I rested my hand on the hood and prayed aloud, "Jesus, if there's anything in this car, I pray that you'd please remove it."

Insecurity.

Quote
Instantaneously, the trunk Rose up before my very eyes. I saw the trunk hand upon it's hinges fully extended. Goose bumps coursed all over my body, a quick shiver all through my bones. I was in complete awe struck and truly witnessed the supernatural.

Gullibility.

We see these two factors time and again in conversion and reaffirmation stories. Another religious believer recently told us he suffers from a psychophysiological illness that causes him pain. He prays and the pain subsides. He takes that as confirmation that prayers are answered. Pain —> ritual hand wringing —> pain subsides naturally —> conclusion: God.

On another occasion, he expressed concern to a friend that there may be no good or joy in life and maybe his God is imaginary. A meteor appeared. He took that as a sign his God is real. Anxiety —> natural event —> conclusion: God.

This same religious believer told an uncorroborated story of a prisoner in Vietnam suffering hardship who finds some pages from a Bible. He cries out to God for forgiveness. He is released from prison and escapes the country on a boat. The boat is caught in a storm and again he cries out to God. They make it safely to Thailand.  Fear and anxiety —> natural outcomes —> conclusion: God.

Some years ago, a work colleague of mine told me his conversion story. His grandmother, to whom he was very attached, had recently died and he was grieving over the loss. He had a dream in which his grandmother appeared and told him not to worry because she was in a better place. He took that dream to be evidence that God is real. Anxiety and grief —> likely occurrence —> conclusion: God.

Over and over again we hear the same tales of insecurity followed by gullibility. Fearful and anxious people engage in ritual hand wringing and take perfectly natural occurrences to be a sign that their imaginary God is communicating with them or wants a personal relationship with them.

Now, if that was all they did then I wouldn’t have a problem with it, but it never stops there. There will always be those religious believers who take their beliefs seriously enough for it to affect their behaviour in ways that cause harm to others. I look at the world and see all the intolerance, violence, misery and death caused by people acting on or motivated by their childish religious beliefs and I really wish[1] they would just learn to overcome their anxieties and fears and accept reality. Of course, that wish, like prayers, is never answered.
 1. figuratively speaking

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #300 on: August 22, 2012, 11:29:56 AM »
And I had a guy the other day "testify" he was Napoleon. He gave me his Napoleon "testimony".

And then there were those space alien folks, a-testifying about this big ugly feller who seemed fond of the probin'. And this feller, he did probe them. A probing "testimony" for sure.

Wouldn't it just figure them space aliens are the invisible, not-leaving-a-trace behind type? He took pitchers and all, but they don't show up none on stupid human "science-y" things like digital cameras. And their probes....while I here tell they is quite painful what with the rippin' and a-tearin', guess what? Not a trace! Everythin' all better in the mornin'!

 &)
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Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #301 on: August 22, 2012, 11:40:07 AM »
To relativetruth & enfauglir;

I was not experiencing any issues with the trunk. While ensuring the entire car was locked, I did a quick look around, for I would not want a car I spent hours on to be tampered with. I went around to the trunk to ensure it was secured. Realistically speaking, when you pop the trunk, does it lift a few inches or does it fully extend? It pops a few inches and this simply was not the case.

To 3sigma;

Yes, I was feeling insecure at the time I laid my hand on the hood. I was afraid, as most people would be. (And pertaining to my above statement, although I was in fear, that did not mean I was ready to run for it. It was, A infront of my house and B, I was not ready to leave my car unchecked.) But back to your statement. I see the formula you've panned out for of me. It logically seems correct, but this was a situation where the impossible happened. A fist pound twice from thin air and a locked trunk opening itself from nothing and rising to it's fully extended rate. This situation could never be taken away from me. It's as real as you and I. I don't believe there is anything gullible about watching the impossible happen. It simply did. To each their own.

To all;

I was aware my testimony would be challenged and in good right and say you did believe in the supernatural, how would I pertain that to the Christian God? Because I spoke Jesus. I didn't say Allah, I didn't say Buddha, I said Jesus and that's good enough for me. To each their own. I only think it'd be unfair to the community, not to share a real incident of the supernatural. Whether you believe it or not, is not up to me. Thanks for reading. :)

This edit is for JesusHChrist;

Nothing without a trace, all better in the morning. I like that statement, because it all seems to be just coincidentally convenient, which was not entirely the case. I had suffered fear of the cracks in the walls for several nights. Now we all know that heat expands drywall and this was in August. Even so, I was fearful for awhile, it wasn't easy to digest this situation miraculously. It took time.

This is for 3sigma again;

and although it took time to heal naturally. It does not change the fact that what I witnessed was logically impossible, but actually supernatural. It wouldn't be called supernatural if it was considered logical.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 11:58:22 AM by volt »

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #302 on: August 22, 2012, 11:51:01 AM »
Hey volt,

Let's see if you can get your Jesus fellow to do something right here and now! What a marvelous opportunity to sway the undecided and save the heathen sinner! Doesn't this Jesus guy want to harvest the lost souls?!?

How about you get him to make a post under my user ID? Say something specific like "JHC is going to roast over an open hickory BBQ pit and will be braised with a beer mop and then served up at the Annual Heavenly Church BBQ if he don't change his godless ways!"

Now that would be impressive.

And yes, yes, yes, I know about the whole "THOU SHALT NOT TEST GOD" thing.

However, when that Old Testament prophet taunted the priests of Ba'al,  he was able to get Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost to deliver the goods, wasn't he? Fire from the watered stones! Poof! Priests slaughtered! Pow! So....why not now? Is Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost asleep? Merely resting?

Unless of course Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost is like one o'them invisible space alien fellers. Not detectable!

Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #303 on: August 22, 2012, 12:01:03 PM »
Volt, weird stuff happens with mechanical and electrical devices all the time.  I remember one time when I was just sitting in my room reading, and my space heater turned itself on.  I examined it and determined that the power switch was still in the "off" position, but there it was, running.  This doesn't constitute evidence that Jesus thought I was getting too cold and thought he should warm me up, or anything.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #304 on: August 22, 2012, 12:04:25 PM »
96 Bonnie's have electric trunk releases, if memory serves. Just sayin'.....
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #305 on: August 22, 2012, 12:10:56 PM »
Volt,

the point being -- anyone can tell a tall tale. It's what humans do. Always have, always will.

So, how do the rest of us discern reality from bullshit when told these "testimonies"?

The critical thinking person applies the bullshit detector kit. We all have one. Some of us have just forgot where we put it.

Has any "case" of the supernatural been successfully validated as fact? Ever? There you go...
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #306 on: August 22, 2012, 12:21:00 PM »
"JHC is going to roast over an open hickory BBQ pit and will be braised with a beer mop and then served up at the Annual Heavenly Church BBQ if he don't change his godless ways!"

Now that would be impressive.

I'd say He already did. :) Just kidding, but in all seriousness, I had my doubts too. I was proclaiming God was a fantasy. Perhaps it took my life to the point where God no longer sent people my way, but in fact intervened. I don't have that answer, but I'm 100% confident that if you test Him enough, something will happen. 100%. Now that doesn't mean their is a time frame, but if you deliberately challenge Him, I'm sure He will answer you. If I were you and it's scarey, it scares the life out of you when you see it, I would seek to see from God myself, because some people need to see to believe and that was my case.

According to the God's Word Translation(©1995), Luke 4:12 states;

"Jesus answered him, "It has been said, 'Never tempt the Lord your God.' "

Notice how instead of test the Lord your God, it's tempt. What happens when you tempt someone? They usually do it and like I stated before, it was a scarey thing. It changed the way I perceived the world forever, but in a way, it consolidated my faith. So if you need to see to believe, seek to find it, but be aware there are both negative and positive supernatural entities.

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #307 on: August 22, 2012, 12:48:59 PM »
Let's tempt The Lord right now.

How do we go about this tempting?

If he made 12 monkeys fly out of my butt, that would convince me. 100%.

Or, he could simply post what I already said earlier verbatim. 100%.

Not hard for the Creator of the Universe I wouldn't think.

Jump for Jesus! Go Ghost! Yay Yahweh!

I'm a-tempting you BIG TIME.

Come on you Cosmic Space Muffin You! Monkeys* a butt-flyin' or scare poor ol' JHC with a threat of gittin' BBQ'd Texas style and served up to a hoard of hungry Baptists.

Your choice!

* Disclaimer -- no monkeys should be harmed in this experiment. Monkeys must be a placed in a zoo post-butt flyin' and treated well. Bananas every day. "Monkey" means a little monkey. No goddamn chimps or heaven forbid, gorillas. Not cool, god, not cool. Maximum monkey weight limited to 12 lbs and no taller than 18 inches in length. Monkeys may not devour hair, scalp, penis or other appendages during the butt-aflyin' phase.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 01:33:59 PM by JesusHChrist »
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #308 on: August 22, 2012, 12:49:33 PM »
but I'm 100% confident that if you test Him enough, something will happen. 100%.

Expressions of certitude are simply emotions.  They do not lend any more credence or truthiness to your claims.

Now that doesn't mean their is a time frame,

I'd say that is a little too convenient.

 
It changed the way I perceived the world forever,

That's silly.  Do you now ponder whether a burnt lightbulb is really a divine missive?  Perhaps your flat tire is a case of demonic sabotage?  Bumping into an old friend someplace unexpected - coincidence?  Impossible!  How do you make it through the day with all these invisible people haunting the world?

Once, my cell phone turned on all by itself.  It was definitely off and I heard the little tune it plays when it turns on.  I checked it and it was on.  No one else was in the house to turn it on.  Should I believe that was the work of devils?  Angels?  Jesus H himself?  Or should I believe it was some glitch in the electronics I am not knowledgable enough to understand or explain?  Which is more likely?

Your willingness to believe in spooks and goblins is primitive.  Were I king, I would forbid you from reproducing.  That is exactly the kind of thing that our species needs to breed out.  The last thing the world needs is more people who believe in spooks and goblins.

So if you need to see to believe, seek to find it, but be aware there are both negative and positive supernatural entities.

That's baloney.  You are a rube.

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Offline jtk73

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #309 on: August 22, 2012, 12:59:32 PM »
Hopefully two months isn't considered a necropost, because I have a testimony about the supernatural that will remain with my the rest of my life. In case you're wondering, I am a Christian and a minister's son. I've been aware of this forum for a few years now and it's quick to see this community is strongly opinionated. That being said, I'm not seeking to dissect my testimony anymore than what was. All I can tell you, is what I experienced and how the Christian faith refers to it. You should also note, that although I'm a minister's son, I've had years of my life where I wasn't a Jesus freak. So I've been on both sides of the fence. In any case;

It was august of 2011 and I was working under the dash of my 96 Bonnie. It was at 9:00 p.m. when the situation occurred.  After a few hours of frustration, (I was very green) I began cursing out in God's name. Previously that night, 6:00 p.m. I told my mother God was just a fantasy. According to my faith, I was testing the limits. After I was cursing in God's name for several minutes, I heard a fist pound on my trunk. Startled, I checked the rear view mirrors to see who was there. There wasn't a soul to be found. The sky was dark and the wind was not blowing. After several seconds, I heard the fist hit my trunk again. After calling my mom who was at church, (about 5 minutes). I took out a large flashlight I was using. I got out of the car, only to see an empty street, need I remind you, there was no wind blowing. My car was parked infront of the house, just pasted the sidewalk. I searched across the street with my flashlight only to find nothing. I then dared to look underneath the car, only to find nothing again. Feeling anxious, I went to the driver's side door to lock the car and call it a night. After I ensured everything was locked, I shut the door and walked around the hood until I stopped next to the left side fender. Instinctively, I rested my hand on the hood and prayed aloud, "Jesus, if there's anything in this car, I pray that you'd please remove it." Instantaneously, the trunk Rose up before my very eyes. I saw the trunk hand upon it's hinges fully extended. Goose bumps coursed all over my body, a quick shiver all through my bones. I was in complete awe struck and truly witnessed the supernatural.

All I can give you is my testimony friends and I'll possess this one until my grave. I would die on this statement. Never to correct myself or change anything. Seeing is truly believing and after this night, I slowly, gradually sought the truth about God and I had found answers throughout the bible and I've had more supernatural experiences on occasion. That's my story. There's nothing like seeing the impossible happen before your very eyes.
Ok. A couple questions.
1. How did you determine that this wasn't some sort of trickster god that performs this parlor trick for you all the while thinking "Bwa ha ha ha! He is following Christianity, the false religion, I just led him further astray. Bwa ha ha ha!"
That's the thing about gods and invisible-magic-people, you never really know.

2. If the "something" in your car was a malevolent spirit and Jesus really did drive the spirit out of your car, why did the trunk lid have to open. Aren't spirits supposed to be like magic vapor or something that can pass through solid objects? Why didn't Jesus just speak into your ear and say "It is done. You're welcome!"

I guess a more important question along this line would be - why does the malevolent spirit or whatever exist in the first place? Who created it or allows it to exist ( specifically manifesting itself in our world/reality)? Aren't Yahweh and Jesus supposedly in charge? Wouldn't they be responsible for the mere existence of this "spirit/demon"? So its a lot like Jesus keying your car and then (after you ask him to) repainting the damaged areas.

Quote
but I'm 100% confident that if you test Him enough, something will happen. 100%. Now that doesn't mean their is a time frame, but if you deliberately challenge Him, I'm sure He will answer you.
(bold mine)
Well. Isn't that convenient! So I ask for a sign and then wait indefinitely and then if something out of the ordinary happens. I categorize it as the sign I asked for. Genius! That way God can never fail!

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #310 on: August 22, 2012, 01:22:20 PM »
It was august of 2011 and I was working under the dash of my 96 Bonnie. It was at 9:00 p.m. when the situation occurred.  After a few hours of frustration, (I was very green) I began cursing out in God's name. Previously that night, 6:00 p.m. I told my mother God was just a fantasy. According to my faith, I was testing the limits. After I was cursing in God's name for several minutes, I heard a fist pound on my trunk. Startled, I checked the rear view mirrors to see who was there. There wasn't a soul to be found. The sky was dark and the wind was not blowing. After several seconds, I heard the fist hit my trunk again. After calling my mom who was at church, (about 5 minutes). I took out a large flashlight I was using. I got out of the car, only to see an empty street, need I remind you, there was no wind blowing. My car was parked infront of the house, just pasted the sidewalk. I searched across the street with my flashlight only to find nothing. I then dared to look underneath the car, only to find nothing again. Feeling anxious, I went to the driver's side door to lock the car and call it a night. After I ensured everything was locked, I shut the door and walked around the hood until I stopped next to the left side fender. Instinctively, I rested my hand on the hood and prayed aloud, "Jesus, if there's anything in this car, I pray that you'd please remove it." Instantaneously, the trunk Rose up before my very eyes. I saw the trunk hand upon it's hinges fully extended. Goose bumps coursed all over my body, a quick shiver all through my bones. I was in complete awe struck and truly witnessed the supernatural.

For now, assuming the story is true, why should I be impressed?

Here, you prayed to god to perform a miracle, and he................ opens the trunk to a car.  Really?  You prayed for a miracle, and all he does is a parlor trick?  Why not regenerate an amputee's limb, restore the world trade centers, reveal the location of the ark of the covenant, give a working blueprint of the starship Enterprise to scientists and enginners? 

God used to do all sorts of impressive things in the bible.  But now, it seems like all he does is minor tricks that does little good.  He used to turn a woman into salt, part the red sea, feed thousands with one loft of bread.  Now he opens trunks and imprint his image in tree stumps.  Does that really seems right to you?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #311 on: August 22, 2012, 01:36:15 PM »
I go about my days in peace knowing the Lord is with me. That is my belief, just as you have beliefs screwtape.

We are all right in our own eyes, until life produces change through circumstance. Remember turtles all the way down? Tell me this, did nothing else but circumstance convince otherwise? No one could confirm or deny turtles all the way down. Some believed, others didn't. When we saw earth in space, turtles all the way down became invalid.

Is there a world renowned method to discovering the supernatural? Religion is often referred to as such a method. Most have tried, many did not receive their answers. Why? Because their lack of faith derives from the inability to see, but I have seen. What does that do for me? Consolidates my faith, it isn't empty words full of empty promise, not in my life, why? Because I've seen.

When it comes down to it, if you want real result in a supernatural way, you have to actively press in. Begin to test the boundaries of what the spiritual realm could respond to. Just keep pressing in. Do whatever it takes need you. My life is a testament of it in itself. If nothing more, it has touched my life and I would never be able say supernatural beings don't exist.

Consider the unknown, in all it's magnitude. Consider not even a God, but spiritual entities itself, because I have witnessed them more on occasion than this alone. Only this was my initial connection. It took time and a process of life before I entered this entire belief of the Christian God. Despite my upbringing, which actually served against the belief of God. Imagine all the years of your life, living under the family of ministers and a church community. Imagine your family's life constantly centered around Jesus. In a physical sense, this seems like rubbish, why? Because I have not seen for myself. They could not prove to me God was any more real than ghosts. It's those who have seen or have heard that are brought to the same conclusion as I. The supernatural exists. The moment you see, is like the very same moment humanity saw earth orbiting in space. And the question is put to rest.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:00:46 PM by volt »

Offline JesusHChrist

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #312 on: August 22, 2012, 01:45:18 PM »
I go about my days in peace knowing the Lord is with me. That is my belief, just as you have beliefs screwtape.

Problem is, beliefs <> reality

Your tall tales don't convince anyone but the gullible.

Meanwhile, JHC's status report:

Flying butt monkeys: 0
WWGHA Godly Posts threatening JHC was a roasting and a toasting: 0

Tell me volt, what exactly do I need to do to tempt this god guy into actually doing something!
Love the Christian. Hate the delusion.

"you dick hole just go f**k your self in hell go to hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! damn iam a strong beliver in the christ and he is compbeled at you !!!!!!!! screw you baster !!!!!!!!" -- random Christian #1636

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #313 on: August 22, 2012, 01:49:28 PM »
Volt, if you were a Hindu in India and had that exact same experience with your car, how would you interpret it? If you were a Santero in Haiti? A Sunni Muslim in Senegal? An animist in the Congo? A Shia Muslim in Iran? A Buddhist in Thailand?

I am asking you this, because you sound like an honest and sincere person. If you had never heard of Jesus, and you had heard bumps and the trunk opened mysteriously, to what would you attribute it?[1]  Remember, assume you have never even heard the name of Jesus, and you called out to Lakshmi or to Buddha instead.

If you are truly honest, you will admit that you would interpret the car events in terms of whatever religious tradition you are familiar with. That is why we have the same miracles happening in every religious tradition. Allah, Lakshmi, Shango, Ogun and Buddha all have the exact same track record of miracles and strange happenings as Jesus.

The Haitian Santero is as committed in her belief as you are in yours. Her child was sick and she called out to Madame Ergulie. The child got better. It was Madame Ergulie who saved the baby. Case closed. Just as we cannot take your supernatural experience away, nobody can take hers away, either.

Conclusion: all religions report supernatural healings and miracles, so all are equally true. Or?

 1. I know people who would immediately say it was a "baka" inhabiting your car,  and cross their shoes under the bed to protect themselves from it.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #314 on: August 22, 2012, 01:54:58 PM »
Is there a world renowned method to discovering the supernatural? Religion is often referred to as such a method. Most have tried, many did not receive their answers. Why? Because their lack of faith derives from the inability to see, but I have seen. What does that do for me? Consolidates my faith, it isn't empty words full of empty promise, not in my life, why? Because I've seen.

When it comes down to it, if you want real result in a supernatural way, you have to actively press in. Begin to test the boundaries of what the spiritual realm could respond to. Just keep pressing in. Do whatever it takes need you. My life is a testament of it in itself. If nothing more, it has touched my life and I would never be able say supernatural beings don't exist.

Explain how "faith" is distinguishable from magical thinking.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #315 on: August 22, 2012, 02:03:06 PM »
To Jtk;

I like your questions Jtk, to think that it was a trickster God performing events to delude me is quite humorous.

Actually, to begin with, I wasn't sure, it took me a whole year to be entirely convinced with enough personal conviction to truly believe it was the Christian God. I began studying the bible, as it was the most obvious thing to do, when seeking to know a spiritual Deity. I began to read the word of Acts. In Acts 19:6 it states;

 "And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying."

I began to actively seek the prayer language of tongues and it is referred to as a gift from the Holy Spirit. Acts 10:44 - 47;

"While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

I was told by a close friend, that she was prayed for in church to receive the prayer language and it poured out of her. She told me she was overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit. So one sunday in church I went up feeling ready to receive the Holy Spirit and it was confirmed to me that I would, because the minister, my father said amongst the crowd, that someone was feeling confined and unable to receive the Holy Spirit and God wants you to know that you will receive it if you come up to the altar now. That was me, I was feeling confined by my ex gf who was blocking my way out of the pews. So I climbed over the pews, went up front and began praising God's name. I had a hand laid on me by my father and he told me to release the feeling I had inside. I instantly turned from excitement to sobbing. It was not a forced action, I had no control over my tears and sobbing and I felt lighter and began praying in Tongues. That confirmed to me the Christian God. Sorry for the long response. :)

to noGodsforme;
You're right noGodsforme, I would pray in whatever religion I was raised in. The question for myself would be, would God answer to my prayers for the Muslim God? I truly do not know. Prayer is the act of belief that a spiritual Deity is listening to you. Would the true God listen to the prayers for a Muslim God? According to the Christian God, Jesus, which responded unto me.

Exodus 20:3 NIV(1984);
"You shall have no other gods before me."

I have no idea what God would do or not do in such a circumstance. I only know what the Christian God stands by, where in lies my faith. It's all because I prayed to the Christian God in said situation. Therefore I have 100% faith and belief that the Christian God is the true God, although I personally do not have all the answers. All I can tell you, is what I've experienced and what the Christian faith teaches.

To JesusHChrist;

That's a fair question. I experienced what I had witnessed by chance. At the time I experienced it, I was challenging the Christian God's laws by disobeying them. I believe He is the one true God, but I'll refer Him in terms that's clear to everyone. The Christian God does not want us to have premarital sex, drinking for drunkenness and cursing in His name. I was doing all the above for about a year or so without any respect to the God I was taught about my whole life and in said circumstance, I was pouring out the cursings left and right. I must have tempted or "tested" God's patience and He intervened. No, I didn't have monkeys fall out of my butt, but I did see the impossible happen. Perhaps you should open your mind to more plausible things like books opening on their own or objects floating in air. Certainly you would not want 12lbs monkeys crawling out of your anus, that would really painful lol.  I wasn't asking for a specific circumstance, I wasn't asking for any circumstance, only that I was disobeying the Christian God's laws in anger.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:48:00 PM by volt »

Offline Aspie

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #316 on: August 22, 2012, 02:29:27 PM »
When it comes down to it, if you want real result in a supernatural way, you have to actively press in. Begin to test the boundaries of what the spiritual realm could respond to. Just keep pressing in. Do whatever it takes need you. My life is a testament of it in itself. If nothing more, it has touched my life and I would never be able say supernatural beings don't exist.

Consider the unknown, in all it's magnitude. Consider not even a God, but spiritual entities itself, because I have witnessed them more on occasion than this alone. Only this was my initial connection. It took time and a process of life before I entered this entire belief of the Christian God. Despite my upbringing, which actually served against the belief of God. Imagine all the years of your life, living under the family of ministers and a church community. Imagine your family's life constantly centered around Jesus. In a physical sense, this seems like rubbish, why? Because I have not seen for myself. They could not prove to me God was any more real than ghosts. It's those who have seen or have heard that are brought to the same conclusion as I. The supernatural exists. The moment you see, is like the very same moment humanity saw earth orbiting in space. And the question is put to rest.

So basically if you begin to accept that the supernatural exists, then you will begin to accept that the supernatural exists. Can you see why this tautology does nothing in the way of supporting your claims? Why should anyone uncritically accept what you say based on the equivalent of John Edward's "go home and think it over"s?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #317 on: August 22, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible?
No
Quote
Do we live in a closed system?
Probably and, if not, the amount of matter arriving in infinitesimal compared with the size of the universe. But please don't get any silly fundamentalist ideas about this preventing new things.
Quote
Is there a supernatural?
"Supernatural" is another word for "ignorance" Unfortunately, people of little brain exist and believe such garbage.
Quote
Is it possible for (a) their to exist things that (b) are not of this natural world, and if so (c) how can we know that?
(a) Their is spelled "there"
(b) No
(c) We are natural. We are the greatest creature ever on this planet. We found the rules and they work. The rules say that if it isn't detectable, despite 6000 years of idiot godbotherers trying to find God, then there is no god.

All pretty straightforward.

Why do you believe in god and not pixies?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:45:40 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline volt

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #318 on: August 22, 2012, 02:54:32 PM »
Radiology is not to the exact. The age of earth according to radiology is not fact, but theory.

Miracles do happen, my brother had flat feet his whole life, he was prayed over by the touching of hands, we checked his feet, he received arches. My testimony over yours.

The rules of earth are fabricated by theory and assumption. Study and research results in truth, however the whole process is done by trial and error.

I can't prove to you you're wrong and you can't prove to me you're right. Life is conditioned by circumstance and we know what we have witnessed.