Author Topic: Is there a supernatural?  (Read 11791 times)

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Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #145 on: May 22, 2012, 05:51:45 PM »
It’s so nice to see again a Christian depowering their god to excuse its impotence.  Not much of a god then.

What I said there I wrote wrong. I meant to say that God IS all-powerful and omniscient, which means he has no problems helping me and helping others.

Seems that your whining about a cavity is pretty damn selfish.

I didn't say I "whined" about it. I didn't even ask it just went away, which I attribute to God looking out for my well being.


Yep, good luck with that little lie.  Christians constantly are saying this will happen “real soon now” for the last 2000+ years.

It's not a lie. John 14:3 says, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." They may have been saying it for the last 2,000 years but the real "time of the end" didn't start until 1844...according to the prophecies in Daniel Ch. 8-9. So it has been more like 168 years, which isn't really that long. You should be glad he is waiting, he is giving you the change to repent and believe. There is still hope for all of you.

Poor poor god, can’t lift a finger if humans don’t do something.  Again, nice impotent god you’ve created for yourself there, Jake. 

He shouldn't have to lift a finger, he has told us again and again to live and we have constantly abandoned that. All the troubles of the world are our own doing, we have noone to blame but ourselves, Satan may have started sin on earth, but we continued it. God has time and time again displayed that he is God, why should he have to keep doing it again and again just so you can believe. Read 1 Kings 18:16-46.

And everyone has heard about this nonsense of yours by now.  If not yet, what’s keeping your god from allowing them to hear about it?  Why no magical voices from the heavens in every language telling about this god?   What’s your next excuse when your god doesn’t show up? 

Nothing is keeping God from allowing them to hear. Some countries don't allow Christians to enter and therefore it is difficult to get to the people. There are tribes in countries that we don't even know about, but we are searching. Maybe there are magical voices from Heaven, but we will never know about it, because it will be given to a people we don't know exist. And I don't need any excuse because my God, never failed to show up.

Oh I love this part.  More Christian attempts to claim their god gives free will and still no evidence of this at all.  It’s hilarious.  You want to claim that God will only return after everyone hears about this god, but then try to claim that this god won’t lift a finger to let everyone know about it.  A wonderful contradiction here, dear Jake.  It's also great when your own bible shows that your claims about free will are simply lies made up to excuse your imagianry friend.

What evidence for the free will do you need, here it is, me, I choose to follow God, you chose not to. There it is plain as day, free will. God doesn't force you to follow him, the evidence he doesn't, you don't follow him. I chose to follow God, he didn't make me. What more evidence could you possible need, I mean really, a child could understand that.

There is no contradiction there. Matt. 24:14 says, "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." And again in Rev. 14:6, "Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth —to every nation, tribe, language and people." God is just, and to be just everyone has to have the ability to decide, He will not punish an individual who did not even has the opportunity to choose. And again, God does much, he empowers many missionaries to out and preach and tell everyone of the good news. He opens doorways for people to get into these "closed" countries and to preach the word of God. And the Bible does not say that we don't have free will. You are probably refering to Romans when Paul speaks about predestination, but you are mistaken. You have to look at the entire Bible and then you will understand what Paul means.


Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #146 on: May 22, 2012, 05:55:35 PM »
jakec47

Is it safe to assume that with out these missionaries the people they help would go with out aid?

There are only so many people helping, remove those missionaries, and many people will go without aid.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #147 on: May 22, 2012, 06:01:36 PM »
jakec47

Is it safe to assume that with out these missionaries the people they help would go with out aid?

There are only so many people helping, remove those missionaries, and many people will go without aid.

So would it be safe to say it would be more effective if god physically did the work himself?
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Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #148 on: May 22, 2012, 06:03:54 PM »
Missionaries and religious charities are one of the best arguments against an all-knowing, all-caring god. Didn't god know those hungry, sick people were there before the missionaries showed up? Why did the people have to wait for missionaries if god knew and had the power to help? And why don't people ever find out about a particular religion without the intervention of human beings who already believe in it?

Well, Christianity, began when God made Adam and Eve. They knew God and God was with them. They found out about God, by God Himself. And many times throughout the Bible we find of people who did not believe because someone told them, but because God or angels appeared to them. Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, the disciples. They all testify to the things they had saw. It was not man who told them to believe but God.

Jesus said in John 20:29, "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Also Jesus told Peter in Matt. 16:13-17, "When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

2 Peter 1:21 says, "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

So humans did not invent Christianity, but God Himself, revealed it to us. Especially by sending his son, Jesus Christ, who was God (John 1:1).


Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #149 on: May 22, 2012, 06:09:56 PM »
jakec47

Is it safe to assume that with out these missionaries the people they help would go with out aid?

There are only so many people helping, remove those missionaries, and many people will go without aid.

So would it be safe to say it would be more effective if god physically did the work himself?

If God did the work himself it would be much more effective yes. But God is not so cut and dry. He has a plan to help these people, He knows them and cares deeply for them. For example, us, not knowing some of these people in need, feel bad for them, but God, he knows them, like a son or daughter. He feels for them, like we do for our children. He wants to not only feed them, but he wants to save them from death. That is why he sent his son Jesus to die, so that they could live. Imagine giving up your own child to die, and you knew how painful it would be for him, but Jesus did not go because God commanded him, but Jesus laid down his own life, by his own will. He offered his life, because he loved those children more than we can even imagine. And the most amazing part of this is found in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners (We rebelled again God, and wanted nothing to do with him, and we did all the things he hates) Christ died for us." What a gift.

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #150 on: May 22, 2012, 06:14:24 PM »
As I said, the need for human messengers and missionaries is the best argument against an all-powerful all-knowing god.
 
1)Why would any god ever need a puny flawed human to find people and bring the most important info in the universe to them? Doesn't god already know those people are there? How do we know that they don't already have the right religion? Because it is not Christianity? Why would god give so many people the worng religion, then?

Imagine the Spanish arriving in the Americas, the Aztec people showing their ancient Christian churches and bibles and crosses, saying, "Jesus Christ-- oh yes, the crucified Jewish rabbi, rose from the dead, we got that revelation, too. We have known all about him for 1500 years", that might have been some evidence for the Christian god. Everyone would dance and sing god's praises.  But no. Instead the Spanish show up and kill everyone for being heathens....nice work, god.
 
2)Why can't any god cross an ocean or climb a tall mountain until human beings manage to do it? "Damn, how long until those humans invent the transatlantic sailing ship....they'll use it for slavery, but they may convert a few heathens along the way." says god, tapping his fingers on the desk.

3)Why can't any god communicate clearly to everyone in the world, without relying on some long complicated written work, done exactly the way ignorant human beings would communicate? Didn't god know that most people were illiterate then? And we don't read ancient Greek or Hebrew now?

C'mon. Give us something to work with here.
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #151 on: May 22, 2012, 06:16:07 PM »
If God did the work himself it would be much more effective yes.
So, if a mere human can find a more effective plan than a god, what makes him superior to us?

But God is not so cut and dry. He has a plan to help these people, He knows them and cares deeply for them. For example, us, not knowing some of these people in need, feel bad for them, but God, he knows them, like a son or daughter. He feels for them, like we do for our children. He wants to not only feed them, but he wants to save them from death. That is why he sent his son Jesus to die, so that they could live. Imagine giving up your own child to die, and you knew how painful it would be for him, but Jesus did not go because God commanded him, but Jesus laid down his own life, by his own will. He offered his life, because he loved those children more than we can even imagine. And the most amazing part of this is found in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners (We rebelled again God, and wanted nothing to do with him, and we did all the things he hates) Christ died for us." What a gift.

Do you have children?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #152 on: May 22, 2012, 06:34:24 PM »

He gives them things they need. And He doesn't ignore anyone.

Really?  Really? 

How can you even believe this?  Take a look at this children in this video and tell me how much your god loves them. 

Missionaries??? 

The modest international aid that crept into this region way too late didn't prevent the deaths of tens of thousands of children, with hundreds of thousands of children who will suffer the effects of near starvation in the form of developmental delays, and dramatic physical problems. 



This is one short video that does not even begin to capture the reality of the human suffering in this region.  In Haiti.  In Afghanistan.  And in Chicago and Tennessee too, there are kids starving.  Kids being beaten and raped and neglected. 

Your god loves them all?  He gives them what they need?

Seriously, we have very different definitions of "love" and "need" and "ignore."























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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #153 on: May 22, 2012, 09:04:01 PM »
But God is not so cut and dry.

Why not?  According to your bible, your god often expresses himself on numerous subjects as yes/no, shall/shall not or do or die. Why is there so much post-biblical vacillation?


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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #154 on: May 22, 2012, 10:09:53 PM »

If God did the work himself it would be much more effective yes. But God is not so cut and dry. He has a plan to help these people, He knows them and cares deeply for them. For example, us, not knowing some of these people in need, feel bad for them, but God, he knows them, like a son or daughter. He feels for them, like we do for our children. He wants to not only feed them, but he wants to save them from death. That is why he sent his son Jesus to die, so that they could live. Imagine giving up your own child to die, and you knew how painful it would be for him, but Jesus did not go because God commanded him, but Jesus laid down his own life, by his own will. He offered his life, because he loved those children more than we can even imagine. And the most amazing part of this is found in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners (We rebelled again God, and wanted nothing to do with him, and we did all the things he hates) Christ died for us." What a gift.

Jake, you have just contradicted yourself, big zombie-time.

You conclude that God's plan in Africa must be to keep people starving and afflicted with HIV and Malaria, so that their suffering makes them come to Christ.

However, God's plan in USA is to keep all your teeth fine, and give white boys college grants.

Why does he choose soft love for Humvee drivers, but tough love for Africans?

One thing you have to get straight in your head is that Africans are not starving because they are subhumans that can't grow food unless they have Americans present. If the God and Satan tag team stopped the HIV and Malaria, tropical viruses, worms, flies, heat, drought, then the Africans would get along fine without billions in missionary aid; even though they have poor leadership, poor soils, poor education, they would do just peachy without Americans.

Maybe I got it wrong. Maybe Satan fixed your teeth,
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #155 on: May 22, 2012, 10:33:13 PM »
Missionaries and religious charities are one of the best arguments against an all-knowing, all-caring god. Didn't god know those hungry, sick people were there before the missionaries showed up? Why did the people have to wait for missionaries if god knew and had the power to help? And why don't people ever find out about a particular religion without the intervention of human beings who already believe in it?

Well, Christianity, began when God made Adam and Eve. They knew God and God was with them. They found out about God, by God Himself. And many times throughout the Bible we find of people who did not believe because someone told them, but because God or angels appeared to them. Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Mary, Joseph, Jesus, the disciples. They all testify to the things they had saw. It was not man who told them to believe but God.

Jesus said in John 20:29, "Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Also Jesus told Peter in Matt. 16:13-17, "When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven."

2 Peter 1:21 says, "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

So humans did not invent Christianity, but God Himself, revealed it to us. Especially by sending his son, Jesus Christ, who was God (John 1:1).

So, your answer for why people do not find god without other people telling them about god is that...people only find god when god manifests themselves to them and not when other people tell them about god?

Is...what...um...are you familiar with how the whole question/answer thing works?
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #156 on: May 22, 2012, 10:36:10 PM »
Jake, you have just contradicted yourself, big zombie-time.

I'm beginning to think that jakec47 either does not know what 'contradiction' means or why a contradiction is problematic.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #157 on: May 23, 2012, 01:38:21 AM »
If I had not received the scholorhship to go to this college I would never have found a church here that brought me back to God, turned me from a being a sinner with no hope of Heaven with God, to a saved man, with a hope in eternity with Jesus.

Ad Hom already touched on this, but I think it warrants further scrutiny. Jake, with this statement above you are acknowledging that you believe god helped you get your scholarship before you were saved.
 
If God did the work himself it would be much more effective yes. But God is not so cut and dry. He has a plan to help these people, He knows them and cares deeply for them. For example, us, not knowing some of these people in need, feel bad for them, but God, he knows them, like a son or daughter. He feels for them, like we do for our children. He wants to not only feed them, but he wants to save them from death. That is why he sent his son Jesus to die, so that they could live. Imagine giving up your own child to die, and you knew how painful it would be for him, but Jesus did not go because God commanded him, but Jesus laid down his own life, by his own will. He offered his life, because he loved those children more than we can even imagine. And the most amazing part of this is found in Romans 5:8, "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners (We rebelled again God, and wanted nothing to do with him, and we did all the things he hates) Christ died for us." What a gift.

In all seriousness Jake, have you really thought this explanation through? Because if god truly wants to save these starving people from death, any rational person would have to ask the obvious question of why he doesn't just go ahead and immediately provide them some food. Surely any being capable of creating the entire universe, not to mention fix your teeth and provide you with a college education, is also capable of making abundant crops grow throughout Africa. You do not address why your god will not make it happen, you just repeat the same nonsensical "god loves you because he sent Jesus to die for you" dogma we've seen time and time again from xtians on this forum. BTW, its not actually such a huge sacrifice to give up your child (who is actually you in human form) to die when you know that he (you) will be resurrected and ascend into heaven shortly thereafter, but I digress.

The bottom line here is that you believe god was willing to help you out even before you accepted Christ, but he is unwilling to provide food for starving people because...why, exactly? And why are you OK with this?

You say god is "not so cut and dry" but logically there is no reason an all-powerful being can't be just as straight forward as he wants to be. Yet by your explanations god continuously chooses convolution over clarity. Indeed, the only way one can reconcile the terrible parts of this world with an all-loving god is to say that he works in mysterious ways. But there is another explanation that makes far more logical sense: There is no god. Good things and bad things happen to people, and those unfortunate enough to be born in impoverished areas tend to have much harder, and shorter, lives than do those lucky enough to be born in areas of prosperity.

Get rid of all that confusion and just let Occam's razor sort it all out for you.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #158 on: May 23, 2012, 01:59:56 AM »
You think I don't do anything to make the world better. I do. I'm in college to. I have no interest in my own life, only that I can be enough for other people. I could go into detail on how I help but I don't like to talk about it because I will sound like I'm bragging.

Fair enough, Jake; no need to go into details if it makes you uncomfortable.

I do think that humanity is going to have to do some serious brainstorming on the subject of world peace, rather than relying upon gods or anything supernatural to solve the problem.  Obviously what we've been doing isn't working, and if there is a solution we need it sooner rather than later.  Ultimately I think it's a quality-of-life issue, as wars seem to break out when a group wants someone else's resources. 
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #159 on: May 23, 2012, 03:09:57 AM »
God healed your tooth, without even being asked, because he willed it.  And he answered your prayers for things you "needed" - like a college grant - which must, again, be because he willed it.

And yet there are still starving children in the world, and fear, and disease, and terror.  So all of that must similarly be because your god wills it.

You've been quite explicit in what you have said about god working in your life.  You've made it quite clear that he WILL intervene directly in the world, to have a measurable and unambiguous effect, as and when he wants to.

And yet....he will NOT intervene to help the starving children.  So what is defferent, Jake?  Why are you so scared to join the dots between god healing your teeth, and god NOT helping those poor kids in Africa?

God helps these children all the time. Haven't you ever heard of the various organizations who help them. All the missionaries out there......

Sure I've heard of them - of PEOPLE doing stuff.  You know, like dentists in the West help people with problems with their teeth?

But you said that your god intervenes directly in your life.  Miraculously heals teeth.  THAT is my point - that he will do it for you, but not for them.

THAT is what I am asking you to explain.  Why god can and will make a direct and personal intervention in your life, but is content to leave far greater problems up to the good will of the (by comparison) scantily resourced and impotent mankind.
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #160 on: May 23, 2012, 04:46:12 AM »
THAT is my point - that he will do it for you, but not for them.

Yeah, but Jake doesn't like fillings. That makes God feel sorry for him.
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2012, 06:58:46 AM »
He gives them things they need. And He doesn't ignore anyone. And He does love other people. What would you rather him give, some food, so they can be happy for a short while, they will still die and go to hell, so Jesus to show how much he loved everyone of us, died so that we can have all our needs fulfilled and so that we can live and not die. "For God so loved the world (this means you) that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. He paid the price that each of us had to pay, but he took it and paid it himself. That is eternal life is worth more than anything in this life. He gave us the greatest thing, and it was a gift.

jake,

I think you have been here long enough to know this is preaching.  You have repeated claims you have made before without any evidence of their truth.  Not only that but at least half of this is demonstrably untrue and has been point out to you already in this thread.

Several other posts after that have been preaching.  Cut it out.

I think part of the problem is you keep quoting the bible as if that is supposed to mean something to us.  It means about as much to as as the Hindu Vedas mean to you.  That is to say, they reflect a cultural mindset at a specific point in history, and while they may capture some truth about human nature, they are myths and not to be taken seriously. 

So, when you say things like "god doesn't ignore anyone", you need to use something other than the bible to establish that is true.  You need external, empirical evidence of it.  Do you understand what I am saying?


 
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #162 on: May 23, 2012, 07:38:35 AM »
jake,

 Do you understand what I am saying?

I'm sure god will help him.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #163 on: May 23, 2012, 07:52:56 AM »
That is why he sent his son Jesus to die, so that they could live. Imagine giving up your own child to die, and you knew how painful it would be for him, but Jesus did not go because God commanded him, but Jesus laid down his own life, by his own will. He offered his life, because he loved those children more than we can even imagine.

Man-o-man  &) .......You just don't get it Jake.

There's a vast difference between murder and martyr.

If the story were to be true, then god had his son murdered....plain and simple.

You need to knock it off with all this "jesus laid down his life shit". No adult in their right mind allows their own innocent life to be taken or offered up for the life of the guilty. That's utter nonsense to believe so and shows just how pathetic the doctrines of faith truly are.

You said in your statement that god sent jesus to die, and so there are no options for jesus at that point and no matter how hard you try to doctor the story to do so. Jesus had no free will and so offered nothing. In the story we see his Dad foolishly take him out thinking that solved the sin problem, when in fact it only made it worse by making a mockery of true moral justice.

The plot as it goes, won't allow god to kill the humans that he created flawed and guilty, and so the writers make him take out his sick revenge on them by killing his own innocent son instead. Moral justice at its finest !  &)

Brilliant story....just fucking brilliant ! ...You gotta love those literary geniuses of old ! ;D 

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #164 on: May 23, 2012, 09:55:24 AM »
It wasn't his son, anyway. Mary did all the work, and Jesus was "begotten", which supposedly means he was still a part of God, like his right arm. At best, God sent his arm down to be crucified, but we know he can just grow another one, and the one he sent didn't die anyway. Why do Christians pretend that Jesus was his only son, like he couldn't have sex with Mary again?

Learning the Christian lingo:

Son = part of himself
died = still alive
crucified = not dead enough
sins = being human
only = first

"God sent his only son, and he was crucified and died for our sins"

translation

God sent a first second part of himself, and it was temporarily not dead enough, and is still alive, because we are human.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #165 on: May 23, 2012, 01:11:29 PM »
the bible, just like any other cultures bible, is a work of fiction jake, made up in a humans mind. why waste your life searching for an unknown, or are you just lazy?
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2012, 03:21:39 PM »
I do think that humanity is going to have to do some serious brainstorming on the subject of world peace, rather than relying upon gods or anything supernatural to solve the problem.  Obviously what we've been doing isn't working, and if there is a solution we need it sooner rather than later.  Ultimately I think it's a quality-of-life issue, as wars seem to break out when a group wants someone else's resources.

I agree that humanity should seriously try to solve these problems. I rely on God, but in no way does that mean I will sit back and just do nothing and say "God will take care of it" I will do my best to solve problems. And I agree that humanity is needs to do the same.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #167 on: May 23, 2012, 03:27:16 PM »
I rely on God,

In what way?  What specifically do you mean by this?
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Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #168 on: May 23, 2012, 03:28:16 PM »
So, your answer for why people do not find god without other people telling them about god is that...people only find god when god manifests themselves to them and not when other people tell them about god?

Is...what...um...are you familiar with how the whole question/answer thing works?

I'm saying that it started out that way, God revealed himself to people. In turn those people went out and told others. If God revealed himself to me, no one would believe it. Even if it was true. Well perhaps some would believe it but most would not. But I am saying that people find out about God both ways. Through God revealing himself, which I believe he still does now, but not always, and people telling others.

Jesus arrived at a time very important, the common language was Greek and Jerusalem was a major city. He could proclaim the good news there are the news would spread. Why ask God to go tell everyone personally, why can't people just tell about him? Why can't the testimony of eyewitnesses by used. In a criminal court case if the defendent doesn't testify that he committed the crime, they you go on the testimony of eyewitnesses, or on the evidence. Or both.

Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #169 on: May 23, 2012, 03:33:18 PM »
Sure I've heard of them - of PEOPLE doing stuff.  You know, like dentists in the West help people with problems with their teeth?

But you said that your god intervenes directly in your life.  Miraculously heals teeth.  THAT is my point - that he will do it for you, but not for them.

THAT is what I am asking you to explain.  Why god can and will make a direct and personal intervention in your life, but is content to leave far greater problems up to the good will of the (by comparison) scantily resourced and impotent mankind.

He does do it for them. Just like he did for me. How do you know he doesn't? You know he did it for me because I told you. You will never hear a report that God saved someone, but if you ask them they may say that he did. Plenty of people are alive who would otherwise be dead if God did not intervene.

Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #170 on: May 23, 2012, 03:36:33 PM »
jake,

I think you have been here long enough to know this is preaching.  You have repeated claims you have made before without any evidence of their truth.  Not only that but at least half of this is demonstrably untrue and has been point out to you already in this thread.

Several other posts after that have been preaching.  Cut it out.

I think part of the problem is you keep quoting the bible as if that is supposed to mean something to us.  It means about as much to as as the Hindu Vedas mean to you.  That is to say, they reflect a cultural mindset at a specific point in history, and while they may capture some truth about human nature, they are myths and not to be taken seriously. 

So, when you say things like "god doesn't ignore anyone", you need to use something other than the bible to establish that is true.  You need external, empirical evidence of it.  Do you understand what I am saying?


 


I understand what you are saying. Other people have quoted the Bible to me as well, so are you saying the the Bible cannot be referenced? Is it a rule in these forums that the Bible cannot be used? Is it also a rule that I cannot tell you what I know (what you call preaching)?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #171 on: May 23, 2012, 03:48:23 PM »
I understand what you are saying. Other people have quoted the Bible to me as well, so are you saying the the Bible cannot be referenced? Is it a rule in these forums that the Bible cannot be used? Is it also a rule that I cannot tell you what I know (what you call preaching)?

No, I am not saying the bible cannot be referenced.  I am saying when you are asked for evidence, quoting the bible generally does not cut it for us.  It depends on the context.  If you say jesus was real and you use the bible as evidence, that is not what we are looking for.  It is self-refernecial and circular. In that case we would be interested in a valid contemporary source.

If you want to talk about how you interpret the story of Job, quoting the bible is fine.  That coversation would be more like literary criticism and little external evidence would be required, if at all, though you may want to reference arguments other people have made on the topic.

You can tell me what you think you know, but then you have to explain to me why I should believe you.  If I tell you gravity on earth accelerates objects in a vacuum at 9.81 m/s2, I could point to numerous physics books that support that number.  I could even explain how you could set up an experiment to verify it for yourself.

When you say "[God] gives them things they need. And He doesn't ignore anyone," we are looking for you to tell us why we should believe that.  We see no evidence of god giving anyone anything, regardless of what the bible says.  So we look to you to say, "this is what god did and this is how I know it."

Does that help?
 
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #172 on: May 23, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »
I'm saying that it started out that way, God revealed himself to people. In turn those people went out and told others.....Through God revealing himself, which I believe he still does now, but not always, and people telling others.
Other religions--Jews, Muslims, Mormons--say the same thing. How do we know who god really revealed himself to?
 
Jesus arrived at a time very important, the common language was Greek and Jerusalem was a major city. He could proclaim the good news there are the news would spread. Why ask God to go tell everyone personally, why can't people just tell about him?
Why does it matter what language was common in that little region at that time in history? What about the rest of the world where people did not speak Greek or Latin or Hebrew or Aramaic? Why didn't god just tell everyone in the world as soon as they were old enough to understand, using the language each person understood best? If god is all-powerful, and all-knowing, he could tell everyone clearly without any problem at all. And he could keep on telling everyone clearly throughout history.

Since there are thousands of different religions, with different beliefs, all geographically separated and culturally specific, and non-believers in every country, it is obvious that your bible god does not speak to everyone.

Why can't the testimony of eyewitnesses by used. In a criminal court case if the defendent doesn't testify that he committed the crime, they you go on the testimony of eyewitnesses, or on the evidence. Or both.
For most of the important stuff in the bible, there were no human eyewitnesses. Who witnessed god creating the heavens and earth? Who witnessed Adam and Eve in the garden? Who witnessed Noah putting the animals onto the ark and sailing away? Who witnessed Jesus fasting in the desert? Who witnessed Jesus being raised from the dead and leaving his tomb? And so forth.

Furthermore, the miraculous events in the bible need more than just some guy saying it happened. So what? That one guy could be joking, or crazy or mistaken or lying. There should be lots of witnesses saying the same thing, but there are not. And there should be some evidence, because when things actually happen they leave a record. There is no physical record of most of the major events in the bible.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #173 on: May 23, 2012, 04:18:35 PM »
There's a vast difference between murder and martyr.

If the story were to be true, then god had his son murdered....plain and simple.

You need to knock it off with all this "jesus laid down his life shit". No adult in their right mind allows their own innocent life to be taken or offered up for the life of the guilty. That's utter nonsense to believe so and shows just how pathetic the doctrines of faith truly are.

You said in your statement that god sent jesus to die, and so there are no options for jesus at that point and no matter how hard you try to doctor the story to do so. Jesus had no free will and so offered nothing. In the story we see his Dad foolishly take him out thinking that solved the sin problem, when in fact it only made it worse by making a mockery of true moral justice.

The plot as it goes, won't allow god to kill the humans that he created flawed and guilty, and so the writers make him take out his sick revenge on them by killing his own innocent son instead. Moral justice at its finest !  &)

Brilliant story....just fucking brilliant ! ...You gotta love those literary geniuses of old ! ;D

I like your statement "No adult in their right mind allows their own innocent life to be taken or offered up for the life of the guilty." That just shows how much Jesus cared for everyone for him to do that.

And you are incorrect in saying that Jesus had no free will. My statement that you refer to is that Jesus offered to go and die, and therefore God sent him. God did not force him, he went willingly. The statement, "God sent his son..." Does not mean that the son did not go willingly or that he was forced to go. But that after he decided to go, the Father using his power, and means, sent him.

And this is justice. The life of Jesus, since he is God, is worth the life of everyone created and will ever be created. Over 7 billion people his life is worth, and they all had to pay the penalty of sin, which was death. Since Jesus paid this penalty of death, by dying himself, the scales of justice are now equal, those people can be justified to God.