Is there a supernatural?

[jakec47]

So, you're talking about something that can have an effect without having a discernible cause.  As in, there is no way to explain it by anything that exists in nature (meaning, the universe as a whole).  I don't see that as being possible.  We may not understand the cause, but that there is a cause goes without saying, and that cause must exist in nature or else it could not have an effect on nature.

So then wouldn't it make sense that an intelligent creation as we have, with complex humans and animals and such diversity, would have been created not be an explosion, but an intelligent being. If you see a car you know someone made the car because the car is evidence that someone had to create the car, it could not create itself or an explosion could not have created it, but a man could have. So it is with the world and God.

[jakec47]

The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?

Interaction brings about change. Hell, existence brings about change. The supernatural does not. Did you even read what I posted?

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

[jakec47]

Question for everyone...are miracles possible? Do we live in a closed system? Is there a supernatural? Is it possible for their to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?

Can we backtrack a bit to define what you mean by "supernatural"?  I'm not sure from what you've said later on whether you are talking about events that would be explainable as part of the normal functioning of the universe if we only knew how to detect and understand them.......

....or do you mean events that overrule or break the physical laws of the universe (whether we currently know what those laws are or not)?

I am talking about events that overrule or break the physical laws of the universe, whether we currently know what those laws are or not.

[jakec47]

Who in their right rational mind should give a flying fuck if some invisible to us "thing" exists outside of the universe ? Humanity needs to grow up and get there chicken shitted heads out of their celestial obsessed asses and start trying to find ways to make this planet a better place. I get sick and tired of these types of discussions that have zero fucking relevance to our current reality and serve the only purpose of exposing the deep seeded mental abnormalities and unnecessary fears of our species.

We have the privilege of having far superior knowledge and information here in the 21st. century than any other period in history, and yet the majority choose to allow their minds to be irrationally stuck in the cesspit of bronze age thinking and ignorance, clinging to phantoms and superstitions. They look to the heavens for answers and get none, and then have the audacity to disrespect or disregard the truthful answers that are here in this reality and given to us by the power of the self-correcting and honest scientific method.

What a disgusting shame.

Carry on though, if you must..... But your problem Jake, as with all others like you, is that you haven't found what's truly worthwhile to you in this life. Only when you do that, will you find the meaning of your life, and be able to cast all your fears and superstitions aside.

Cheers   

You are partly right when you say that these discussions have zero relevance to our current reality. In fact they do have relevance, my life has changed because of that "supernatural" so now my life will be different then what it was going to be. And the other part is that I do not live for my best life now, but I live storing up treasures in Heaven, so that I can have my best life, but not yet, I must wait a little longer, I work everyday so that one day I hear my Savior's voice say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Oh and your wrong, I have found what is truly worthwhile in my life, it was Jesus Christ, and he has given more meaning to my life then anything else, and for that I would die for.

[jakec47]

I just wanted to second this - I'm tired of 'cloud people'.  We are people of the 21st century - it's about damn time we learned to give a rat's ass about what happens in this life and in this world rather than what is going to happen after this life or after this world...  Concentrating on the 'supernatural' your whole life is setting the race of humanity to absolute and utter failure..  Epic fail.

Humanity is already on the path to "absolute and utter failure" because they have forgotten their very Creator.

[jaimehlers]

So then wouldn't it make sense that an intelligent creation as we have, with complex humans and animals and such diversity, would have been created not be an explosion, but an intelligent being. If you see a car you know someone made the car because the car is evidence that someone had to create the car, it could not create itself or an explosion could not have created it, but a man could have. So it is with the world and God.

No, it wouldn't make sense.  First off, the Big Bang is not an explosion in the sense that you mean.  It didn't erupt into something that was already present (which causes that something to become disordered), it was just a really rapid expansion of energy into what amounts to empty space.

Second, your reasoning is flawed.  The reason we conclude that the car was made by someone is because we do not observe it coming about naturally.  By comparison, let's take a planet or a star; we can observe these things happening naturally.  Nobody has to make them happen, and they come out pretty much as we expect.  If the planet can support life, then it would necessarily be very simple life to start with, and would gradually become more complex as differences came about which gave survival advantages to various organisms.  Eventually, if you have long enough, you'll end up with complex organisms that are still competing to survive.  And when we look at the way organisms actually developed, we discover this very process, and furthermore, we discover evolutionary trade-offs which make perfect sense for an organism which developed on its own versus one that was made.

For example, the fact that humans have hands and arms instead of forelimbs and forefeet is an advantage, because it lets us develop specialized tools, but it is also a disadvantage, because we cannot move as fast as a four-legged predator.  Another example is the prevalence of sickle-cell anemia in places where malaria is present, because sickle-cell anemia protects against malaria.  There's lots of other trade-offs, so many that I only know of a small fraction of the total.  The point is that those trade-offs make no sense in an organism designed to order.

[jakec47]

I do not understand.  Why can it not have a bearing on whether or not something could be true?  I mean it should at least be worth investigating.

Lets say someone has a dream that there is an advanced civilarizion(but not possessing FTL  technology) on the fouth planet around a star that is 9670 light years from earth. They propose it is real, do you "accept this" theory as reasonable? Or would you ignore it as unsupported? Lets us say the
1200 years from now that we find out that there is actually an advanced civilization on said planet. Yes, the theory was valid, but it was...given the fact it was unsupported and untestable it was still
reasonable to ignore it. Certainly it would be unreasonable to change our behavior and expend resources on a welcome center for these aliens in the present time.

That is what Churchs are to me, a series of welcome centers for Aliens that were seen in a dream. There might be a god, sure....but until I see any proof, it is not reasonable to act on this "possibility"

Then look at this...Instead of one person who had that dream, what if over 40 people had the same dream, or what if they even said they saw an alien from that civilization come to their planet and tell them it was there. And so they told many people and what if those 40 people were selected from a time period of 1,500 years, and the same message was told everytime, and the 40 people were all from different education levels, and backgrounds, and race, and color, and age. Would you believe then?

[jakec47]

So then wouldn't it make sense that an intelligent creation as we have, with complex humans and animals and such diversity, would have been created not be an explosion, but an intelligent being. If you see a car you know someone made the car because the car is evidence that someone had to create the car, it could not create itself or an explosion could not have created it, but a man could have. So it is with the world and God.

No, it wouldn't make sense.  First off, the Big Bang is not an explosion in the sense that you mean.  It didn't erupt into something that was already present (which causes that something to become disordered), it was just a really rapid expansion of energy into what amounts to empty space.

Second, your reasoning is flawed.  The reason we conclude that the car was made by someone is because we do not observe it coming about naturally.  By comparison, let's take a planet or a star; we can observe these things happening naturally.  Nobody has to make them happen, and they come out pretty much as we expect.  If the planet can support life, then it would necessarily be very simple life to start with, and would gradually become more complex as differences came about which gave survival advantages to various organisms.  Eventually, if you have long enough, you'll end up with complex organisms that are still competing to survive.  And when we look at the way organisms actually developed, we discover this very process, and furthermore, we discover evolutionary trade-offs which make perfect sense for an organism which developed on its own versus one that was made.

For example, the fact that humans have hands and arms instead of forelimbs and forefeet is an advantage, because it lets us develop specialized tools, but it is also a disadvantage, because we cannot move as fast as a four-legged predator.  Another example is the prevalence of sickle-cell anemia in places where malaria is present, because sickle-cell anemia protects against malaria.  There's lots of other trade-offs, so many that I only know of a small fraction of the total.  The point is that those trade-offs make no sense in an organism designed to order.

So then let me ask...what caused the Big Bang? And what other "explosion" do we have that has created more order rather than disorder? Then you say we observe a planet coming about naturally, how so, I've never seen the Earth forming from molten lava, or whatever it was, I see a planet and just like a car it had to be made, it just doesn't make sense (in my eyes) that something more complex then even a car, or a computer could have come about by accident.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Oh and your wrong, I have found what is truly worthwhile in my life, it was Jesus Christ, and he has given more meaning to my life then anything else, and for that I would die for.

Wow I find this to be a really profound statement.

[jakec47]

I can't tell if your being serious or cynical.

[Omen]

Is there a supernatural?

No.

The definition of supernatural encompasses not existing or not existing to be observed.  If it is observable, it's natural.

[jeremy0]

I just wanted to second this - I'm tired of 'cloud people'.  We are people of the 21st century - it's about damn time we learned to give a rat's ass about what happens in this life and in this world rather than what is going to happen after this life or after this world...  Concentrating on the 'supernatural' your whole life is setting the race of humanity to absolute and utter failure..  Epic fail.

Humanity is already on the path to "absolute and utter failure" because they have forgotten their very Creator.

I would argue it is because all of your attention is on fallacies and fiction rather than what is going on in this world.  Global warming turning into a belief system by religious groups when it is scientific fact is not amusing when you are saying the end of the world will come by 'forgetting the creator'.  Neither is apofus(sp?), the meteor that scientists are worried about crashing into earth in 2039.. These are the real threats facing life on this planet, not the 'creator'.  There was a time when man didn't believe in a God - it was before religion.  Man survived without acknowledging the possibility of a creator being the reason for their existence.  You can't tell me that man began as an accurate description of human history as it happened according to Genesis.  It's impossible that it may have happened that way - in fact, it is rather laughable to view it as a historical account of the earliest man/woman ever to exist.  Ever since the pondering of a creator, there hasn't been one day where everyone around the earth had forgotten about the idea.  However, there are people that reject the idea. 

We are set for utter failure because of things like religion distracting you from real-world problems.  Economic disaster could ruin your life, or take the lives of many.  I'm seeing this coming on multiple fronts.  So could the threat of warming the earth before it can naturally cool itself.  So could a massive asteroid that doesn't get picked up by Saturn or some other planet before it hits us.  So could a massive solar flare if our earth continues to lose ground on its magnetic field..  etc.  Those are the real problems - not your creator theory destroying mankind because man was too busy trying to solve his own problems that he forgot to mention a delusion he once had about an all-knowing, all-loving, but menacing creator...

[jaimehlers]

Humanity is already on the path to "absolute and utter failure" because they have forgotten their very Creator.

That presumes that there is such a creator to begin with - which nobody has ever been able to prove.  It further presumes that humanity is on some "path" to failure, which I don't agree with (either from you or from him).  Humanity was not on a path to failure for the 5,000+ years of recorded history before the Enlightenment happened (when religion dominated), and it is not on a path to failure now that we are able to discover so much more than we could ever have known during those 5,000+ years.

And while I'm on the subject of this "creator" business, Jake, consider this.  Even if Christian belief was correct in that God was/is some kind of creator-father to humans...children grow up and learn how to make their own way in the world.  They do not remain dependent on their parents forever.  Yet Christians as a whole seem to think that it is not only right, but good, for humans to remain totally dependent on God for generation upon generation upon generation, for thousands of years, until God turns the Earth into a playground for the human faithful so that they'll never have to grow up.  Not to mention the whole despicable "hell" business.  What father would countenance that kind of eternal torture for his children simply for being disobedient or disbelieving?

So then let me ask...what caused the Big Bang? And what other "explosion" do we have that has created more order rather than disorder? Then you say we observe a planet coming about naturally, how so, I've never seen the Earth forming from molten lava, or whatever it was, I see a planet and just like a car it had to be made, it just doesn't make sense (in my eyes) that something more complex then even a car, or a computer could have come about by accident.

What caused the Big Bang?  Perhaps the same thing that 'causes' virtual particles to appear and disappear all the time, everywhere (even inside your own body).  It doesn't need to have been caused by some actor at all.  And you're still stuck on the idea of it being an explosion.  It was nothing like whatever you are thinking of as an explosion.  To put it simply, how can you disorder something that doesn't exist?  there wasn't anything around the Big Bang to be disordered to begin with.  Furthermore, supernovas - the explosion of a star - seed various nebulae so that they can create more stars.  This creates much more order than disorder.  And most of the heavy elements could not exist without these supernovas, to boot.

Please do not insult your intelligence by playing this card of "if I didn't observe it, how am I supposed to believe it"?  Your statement that you've never observed the Earth forming (thus it had to be made) is disingenuous at best.  The Hubble telescope has taken images of protoplanetary disks, which fits the theory of how planets form naturally, yet you somehow think that the only way they could have come about is for someone to deliberately make them?  Stretch your mind and stop assuming that the only thing that could be true is based on what you already believe to be true.  That's the most key principle of science - to not assume that what we currently think is true is guaranteed to be true.  That's why science talks of hypotheses and of theories, not of facts or of certainties.  I don't think there is a single religion that promotes the idea that it might not actually have the idea of God correct, or understands that their conception of God is based on what they themselves know.

[Graybeard]

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

Does this work for Hindus and any of the other religions? Or does only the American Christian god do it?

How do you know it is supernatural? Is it the first answer you thought of? Even if you don't know the answer, do you think there could be some other reason for the cure?

I'll mention that by the time an addict wants to be cured, he is already 80% there. So, at a time when an addict has had enough - that is the time he seeks a god of some sort - he has already made up his mind.

[Alzael]

Wow I find this to be a really profound statement.

Actually it isn't. It's a statement that sounds profound unless you actually stop and think about it. There's really nothing deep in there, it's actually very shallow.

[Hatter23]

Then look at this...Instead of one person who had that dream, what if over 40 people had the same dream, or what if they even said they saw an alien from that civilization come to their planet and tell them it was there. And so they told many people and what if those 40 people were selected from a time period of 1,500 years, and the same message was told everytime, and the 40 people were all from different education levels, and backgrounds, and race, and color, and age. Would you believe then?

I see where you are coming from, and the answer is no. Because the story has been passed around and people have been told about the dream..because NO ONE suddenly has the same dream without hearing about the first dreamer...the contamination of the subconscious is obvious.

[Hatter23]

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

That's obvious, they convinced themselves that magic works...and that magic worked in the only way magic ever works...altering peoples behaviors who believe it.

[One Above All]

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

That's obvious, they convinced themselves that magic works...and that magic worked in the only way magic ever works...altering peoples behaviors who believe it.

This. When something (religion) only works sometimes (even if you believe it works all the time) and those times it only works when you actually believe it does, you KNOW it's a placebo.

[jakec47]

What father would countenance that kind of eternal torture for his children simply for being disobedient or disbelieving?

None would and God wouldn't either.

[RNS]

Ok, so it's contradictory to the definition, but how was that definition formed? On what is it based? How do we know that there is no existence outside of the universe?

It was based on the science behind the Big Bang. If you wish to discuss it, please make another thread.

Is it not relevant to the discussion? Since if there is existence outside of the universe, wouldn't that be supernatural by definition?

[One Above All]

It is relevant, but it would severely derail the thread.

[RNS]

It is relevant, but it would severely derail the thread.

noted

[Historicity]

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

I've heard from a number of alcoholics and drug users who just plain quit.  Like a guy who threw his partially used pack of cigarettes in the trash and just ate unbuttered popcorn for weeks.

Or Robin Williams who said he was speaking to Pam Dawber seriously after the overdose death of John Belushi and wondered whether he could quit.  She said, "You're not high now, are you?  Then stay that way."  And he did.

Chrissie Hynde of the band The Pretenders said she liked to sit around all day half drunk but when she had a baby she had to be responsible and quit.

[velkyn]

Then when people started looking at the rocks, they noticed that the flood was horseshit.   

Not all have come to this conclusion.

Yep, people like you who ignore the evidence and can provide no evidence of their own to demonstrate their myth really happened.   We have theists of all sorts who claim evidence for their supernatural claims of he bible and you *all* fail.    You keep scooting after your theists friends all "spike, spike, can we play spike? I love you spike" looking desperately for anything to support your nonsense, lapping up all of their untruths.   

and jake

None would and God wouldn't either.

Wow, so you don't believe in your bible?  that's great.  Because if you did, your statement would be a very pitiful lie because I know what your bible really says on the matter. 

[gonegolfing]

You are partly right when you say that these discussions have zero relevance to our current reality. In fact they do have relevance, my life has changed because of that "supernatural" so now my life will be different then what it was going to be. And the other part is that I do not live for my best life now, but I live storing up treasures in Heaven, so that I can have my best life, but not yet, I must wait a little longer, I work everyday so that one day I hear my Savior's voice say, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Oh, it's going to be different alright there Skippy. The difference being between rational and irrational.

Your credulousness in believing that a better life awaits you after you die, should in the first place cause you to be ashamed of yourself, but since you don't see it that way, then I would further suggest that you better repent to your phantom god for the crime of belittling this life that he gave you here on a planet that he called a "good" work.

Can you not understand that your god considers that this life is the better of the two lives that you are supposedly going live--given the fact that it was created by him as the first of the two and the primary and crucial stepping stone to get to the next ? Do you not understand that he loves seeing you go through all the mindbendingly difficult challenges that this wonderful life brings to you, and that the boring and eternal routine of constantly worshiping him 24/7 in the next life is the type of monotonous groveling that he is now no doubt dreading and regretting ? Why the hell do you think it's taking him so long to return ? Figure it out Einstein ! 

Seriously Jake, Are you not simply being an ungrateful twat at this point ?

Oh and your wrong, I have found what is truly worthwhile in my life, it was Jesus Christ, and he has given more meaning to my life then anything else, and for that I would die for.

Wrong ? You mean to tell me that you find the most worthwhile thing in life, and something you would die for, is a doctrine that demands innocent blood for your guilty ass and ungrateful blood ? Say it ain't so !!

Oh well, it's apparent that you're just another devilishly irresponsible and chicken shitted immoralite, who won't allow his pretzelized mind to come out of his ass and shape up.

Cheers

[jaimehlers]

What father would countenance that kind of eternal torture for his children simply for being disobedient or disbelieving?

None would and God wouldn't either.

This contradicts Christian doctrine as taught by most churches, certainly Protestant ones.  For example, NATHAN posited a scenario where a boy who didn't believe went to hell for no other reason than his disbelief.  How do you tell which of you is correct?

The point is that according to many, many Christians, disobeying God's laws or disbelieving in God results in a ticket to hell after death.  And to them, hell is eternal suffering and torture, which God implicitly permits.  In fact, they use the idea of unending torment to convince others to convert to Christianity.  How do you know they're not actually correct, and God does in fact countenance eternal torture and torment for nonbelievers?

[12 Monkeys]

The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?

Interaction brings about change. Hell, existence brings about change. The supernatural does not. Did you even read what I posted?

How then is it possible for an alcoholic, or a drug addict, to come to God and immediately stop drinking or doing drugs and a change is brought about in them. They seem like entirely different people, how then can this happen without a "supernatural" working within them?

amazing he cant help out the starving children like he can help a JUNKIE.....why oh why wont God think of the children?

[relativetruth]

Nature is what exists.

And what exists is nature.

Supernatural is that which is 'outside' of nature.

So that which is 'outside' of nature does not exist.

[Frank]

No. If there was a supernatural and we knew about it then it wouldn't be a supernatural it would be natural.