Author Topic: Is there a supernatural?  (Read 11785 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 10:18:32 PM »
The inside of a black hole is something that exists apart from our laws of physics.  Scientists theorize the inside of a black hole may operate on a hole different set of laws.

When I refer to supernatural I refer to a spirit realm where God, angels, and demons exists.  If a spirit realm exists I would theorize it is exceedingly complex even when compared to the laws of physics.  I mean I don't think an angel would be affected by the laws of gravity.  This really is just speculation but why can it not even be a possibility that a spirit realm exists with it's own laws apart from the laws of physics since there is evidence that not everything operates within the laws of physics.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 10:20:38 PM »
If an angel does not abide by the laws of physics,,,why the wings? what purpose do they serve? and why is Jesus white?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 10:28:46 PM »
The inside of a black hole is something that exists apart from our laws of physics.  Scientists theorize the inside of a black hole may operate on a hole different set of laws.

When I refer to supernatural I refer to a spirit realm where God, angels, and demons exists.  If a spirit realm exists I would theorize it is exceedingly complex even when compared to the laws of physics.  I mean I don't think an angel would be affected by the laws of gravity.  This really is just speculation but why can it not even be a possibility that a spirit realm exists with it's own laws apart from the laws of physics since there is evidence that not everything operates within the laws of physics.

Because you don't understand what the words you're using so haphazardly mean. Let me try this more simply.

Let's assume that there is another spiritual world where god lives. If this world exists, but is unable to interact with our reality, then it's meaningless. In this case God, angels, demons, etc. have no ability to do anything to or in our world. There is no way of ever knowing that they even exist. God does not look out for us, he does not help us, he did not give us a book with his word written in it. Because god cannot affect the world in anyway. So there may be a god that exists in some other realm, but for all reasonable or practical purposes he's imaginary.

If god can actually affect our world, then we can see and measure those effects. Which means that they are not supernatural. They are natural phenomenon that we simply haven't come to understand yet.

That's the thing with the word "supernatural". It's a cop-out. It's an excuse for claiming something that you know you can't prove. In reality there can really be no such thing because anything that has an effect can be tested and measured.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 11:51:33 PM »
All the things people have done in the name of a god could be evidence for a god.

I agree "supernatural" is not the correct term..  I'm not suggesting that God or a spirit realm is "unnatural".  If scietists could "discover" God then I'm sure they would say he was a natural phenomenon.  I'm just suggesting that they do not work within our laws of physics nor are they detectable by them.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2012, 12:01:25 AM »
All the things people have done in the name of a god could be evidence for a god.

How? And which god? People have done many things in Odins name. Or Athena's. What about people who do things because Lord Zenon of the planet Mazelban commanded them to? Is that evidence? Come on Jst, you're not this dumb.

I'm not suggesting that God or a spirit realm is "unnatural".  If scietists could "discover" God then I'm sure they would say he was a natural phenomenon.  I'm just suggesting that they do not work within our laws of physics nor are they detectable by them.

Then the concept of a god is still meaningless. If god cannot be detected, then you have no basis to make any claims of such things. You can't honestly say that god says or does anything because you're admitting to having no way of knowing these things. You are essentially admitting that you are making your beliefs up entirely to correspond with what you personally want to be true.

The same holds true for if gods realm does not work within our law of physics. Unless you claim to understand how those laws work, and can actually prove such, then anything you say about them is nothing more than a conjecture on your part. Again, you're admitting to a god that you've effectively made up.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2012, 12:25:49 AM »
How? And which god? People have done many things in Odins name. Or Athena's. What about people who do things because Lord Zenon of the planet Mazelban commanded them to? Is that evidence? Come on Jst, you're not this dumb.

Naturally you'd need more evidence than this.  I'm not suggesting everything that's ever been done in the name of a god is genuin evidence.  I'm suggesting that it cannot be ruled out entirely.  The fact that so many religions have so many major beliefs in common makes me think they all origniated from a common pool of beliefs.  It is this "pool" of beliefs that should be investigated also.  I mean many religions speak of a golden age, a fall from grace, and a restoration to grace.  Many religions allude to the story of the flood of Noah and other such "make believe" stories for example.

Quote
  If god cannot be detected, then you have no basis to make any claims of such things.

The inside of a black hole cannot be detected.  This does not mean it does not exist.  It means science does not yet have the means to detect it.  Perhaps the same is true of a spirit realm.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Alzael

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2012, 12:49:33 AM »
Naturally you'd need more evidence than this.  I'm not suggesting everything that's ever been done in the name of a god is genuin evidence.  I'm suggesting that it cannot be ruled out entirely.  The fact that so many religions have so many major beliefs in common makes me think they all origniated from a common pool of beliefs.  It is this "pool" of beliefs that should be investigated also.  I mean many religions speak of a golden age, a fall from grace, and a restoration to grace.  Many religions allude to the story of the flood of Noah and other such "make believe" stories for example.

This is a fallacy. It's an appeal to popularity. The fact that a lot of people have thought something has no bearing on whether or not that something is true. Also, no they don't. Golden age, fall from grace,restoration of grace, etc all of those things do not belong to many religions. They belong to Jeudaism and the religions that spawned from it. However as much as Christians like to think that they are the one true belief they are actually a very small representation of religious beliefs in general throughout history. Even as shamelessly plagiarized from other faiths as yours is, it still does not accurately reflect belief over the history of the world. just the bits they copied.

Salvation for example, is almost uniquely Christian. As is the concept of punishing people for non-belief. Almost no religion does or did this. While there were religious wars, the dictates of the faiths themselves did not include punishment just for not believing in the faith.

The inside of a black hole cannot be detected.  This does not mean it does not exist.  It means science does not yet have the means to detect it.  Perhaps the same is true of a spirit realm.

Jst, in all honesty. Do you really think at all before you say these things? This isn't even a functioning analogy.

The inside of a black hole cannot be detected, but the black hole can. So we know that the black hole exists, and as such we know that it has an inside. We can't say the same about your theoretical realm.

And more importantly you either intentionally or unintentionally completely ignored the point that I made in what you quoted.

Yes the inside of a black hole is currently unknown, which is why we don't make claims about what is in there.

To repeat what I said before. If it cannot be detect your other realm, or it exists with totally different rules. You cannot honestly claim to know anything about it. Which is exactly what we do with the inside of a black hole. We don't claim to know.

However just because you don't know something does not mean you get to make up whatever most appeals to you. Yeah, a realm such as you describe could exist. Just as it's entirely possible that at the center of every black hole is a little old man desperately searching for the light switch. However you can't honestly claim that.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2012, 01:22:53 AM »
Quote
This is a fallacy. It's an appeal to popularity. The fact that a lot of people have thought something has no bearing on whether or not that something is true.

I do not understand.  Why can it not have a bearing on whether or not something could be true?  I mean it should at least be worth investigating.

Quote
As is the concept of punishing people for non-belief.

To what punishment are you referring?

Quote
The inside of a black hole cannot be detected, but the black hole can.

But this is only recently.  More recently is the discovery of dark matter and dark energy.

Spirit realm aside, I think there are many discoveries yet to be made in matters of the universe.  Some theorize there are multiple universes.  There is no proof they exist no more than there is proof that a spirit realm exists but yet scientists theorize that they "might" exist.

Quote
which is why we don't make claims about what is in there.

No they make theories.  One such theory is that the "other side" of a black hole is another "Big Bang."  And there are differing theories.  I mean sometimes I think some of these theories are the result to too much acid, but yet they exist.  I don't understand how some are rightly called "theories" and not hypothesis.  But whatever.

Okay here you go.  If someone had a hypothesis that a spirit realm existed then how would they go about testing this?  How are they going to go about testing if a Big Bang is on the other side of a black hole?  They must develop a way.

And my main reason for bringing up a black hole is to demonstrate that "other laws" may exist that are unknown to scientists.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 01:25:11 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online One Above All

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2012, 01:31:33 AM »
I do not understand.  Why can it not have a bearing on whether or not something could be true?  I mean it should at least be worth investigating.

500 years everyone "knew" the Earth was flat, thanks to religious dogma. Does that mean that the idea that the Earth was flat was somehow more likely to be true? Obviously not.
Reality is what it is. Beliefs are irrelevant.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2012, 01:50:30 AM »
Quote
500 years everyone "knew" the Earth was flat, thanks to religious dogma

Please explain.

But to answer the question.  It was more accurately a theory the earth was flat.  And as far as they "knew" it "might" have been.  It was at least worth investigating.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 01:56:48 AM »
Please explain.

Bible says the Earth is flat. And, as velkyn[1] said, "circle doesn't mean sphere, not even in Hebrew".

But to answer the question.  It was more accurately a theory the earth was flat.

Theory: An explanation of how the facts fit together.
The fact is that ships disappeared in the horizon from the bottom up when they were leaving, and appeared from the top down when they were returning. The fact is that there is a horizon in the first place. The fact is that beliefs are irrelevant to reality.
Their belief based on religious dogma was that the Earth was flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary. That is no more a theory than the belief that if I brush my hair, I'll start converting oxygen into gold in my lungs and die.

And as far as they "knew" it "might" have been.  It was at least worth investigating.

No, it wasn't. Many people believe that aliens visit Earth regularly to shove probes up our asses.
Beliefs do not give anything credibility. If you cannot understand that simple rule of logic, you're an idiot.
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« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 02:00:16 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 04:34:34 AM »
I'm just suggesting that they do not work within our laws of physics nor are they detectable by them.

So.....you want to posit the existence of something that is undetectable, and follows none of our physical laws?

Why?

Why even bother considering for one moment something that we can never detect or interact with?  Why limit yourself to god and demons?  Why not consider the possibility that all the Marvel superheroes exist in a parallel dimension and Stan Lee is simply picking up their TV channels when he dreams?

In fact, there is very good reason NOT to bother with claims of the Christian god and his works.  Because the testimony of his followers and the Bible in fact make very, very specific claims that he DOES interact with "our" world in a manner that we can observe and detect.  It should be very, very simple to prove any supernatural claims about Yahweh, prceisely for that reason.

But we can't.  All attempts to do so fail.  As do all attempts to measure the efficacy of homeopathy, reiki massage, ghosts, yeti, and so on.  Which means that we can just discount them, and instead - if you really must - you can have fun speculating on all the woo that can't be detected or observed.

Though what the point would be, I cannot imagine, given all the wonder and marvel that exists in the natural world.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline RNS

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2012, 08:49:12 AM »
time and space are requirements for existence

Are you sure about this? How do we know?
I mean I know that matter and everything in our universe must exist in space-time, but what about before the big bang and so on?
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2012, 08:51:13 AM »
Are you sure about this? How do we know?

Everything that exists occupies space. Space is required for existence. Actions require time. Time is required for action. Given that we're positing if the supernatural acts in this universe, then both are necessary.

I mean I know that matter and everything in our universe must exist in space-time, but what about before the big bang and so on?

Your question is nonsensical. "Before" the Big Bang would be "before" time.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2012, 08:57:42 AM »
If an angel does not abide by the laws of physics,,,why the wings? what purpose do they serve? and why is Jesus white?

Everybody knows Jesus was Black

Revelations 1:14



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline RNS

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2012, 09:47:29 AM »
@Lucifer.

Yeah sorry, I know technically that statement is not correct ("before the big bang"), but you know what I mean right?
Also I know the topic is if the supernatural acts in this universe, but I'd like to explore the idea of what exists, or existed outside of this universe.
I.e. If there is/was any existence outside of our universe and natural laws. Is it possible for existence to... exist.. outside of space-time.
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2012, 09:58:26 AM »
I know technically that statement is not correct ("before the big bang"), but you know what I mean right?

...No, I don't. If I did, I would've corrected your statement and answered your question.

Also I know the topic is if the supernatural acts in this universe, but I'd like to explore the idea of what exists, or existed outside of this universe.

The universe, per its definition, is everything that exists. Everything that has been or will be. There is nothing "outside" it; the very notion is self-contradictory. You're asking what is "outside" of space. Space is what defines where something is. Likewise, time is what defines when something exists. What you're asking is akin to asking what would happen in a chemical reaction before the chemical reaction actually occurred.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline RNS

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2012, 10:36:26 AM »
Ok, so it's contradictory to the definition, but how was that definition formed? On what is it based? How do we know that there is no existence outside of the universe?
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2012, 10:37:27 AM »
Ok, so it's contradictory to the definition, but how was that definition formed? On what is it based? How do we know that there is no existence outside of the universe?

It was based on the science behind the Big Bang. If you wish to discuss it, please make another thread.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2012, 10:57:19 AM »
Many religions allude to the story of the flood of Noah and other such "make believe" stories for example.
and there is no evidence for such a thing.  So these "many religions" including yours are wrong.  And there is no erason to think it is right about anything else.   
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2012, 11:06:11 AM »
I do not understand.  Why can it not have a bearing on whether or not something could be true?  I mean it should at least be worth investigating.

Because as much as some people like to think otherwise, reality does not conform itself to suit our wishes. Even if everyone on the planet wished that all of the volcanoes on earth started gushing beer, it would not make it true.

And the idea is not worth investigating because it's idiotic. If I claimed there was a magic elf named Cuddles who lived in my closet and gave golden pixie dust to good little boys would that be worth investigating? Obviously not because the very idea is ridiculous and there is no evidence to even begin to think such a thing was true.

To what punishment are you referring?

The bibles punishments for not being a believer.

But this is only recently.  More recently is the discovery of dark matter and dark energy.

Black holes have been known to exist for a long time. And dark matter and dark energy have been theorized since the early thirties. I have no idea what point you're trying to make with this. All of these things were theorized about based on evidence that they existed. No one made claims beforehand about their properties until they had reason to believe they were there in the first place.

Spirit realm aside, I think there are many discoveries yet to be made in matters of the universe.  Some theorize there are multiple universes.  There is no proof they exist no more than there is proof that a spirit realm exists but yet scientists theorize that they "might" exist.

*sigh* Yes there is proof that they exist. Does it never occur to you to actually read a book, or to just do a google search to make sure that you're actually informed of what you're talking about before you type something down and announce your ignorance. There is proof of multiple universes, not enough to prove conclusiely but it exists. That's why it's called a theory. Because it has facts to back it up. Your "spirit realm" idea has nothing to back it up. Do you actually not see the difference?

Furthermore this still ignores the point. That being that scientists don't make claims beyond the evidence. While they follow evidence which says that multiple universes might exist they don't make claims about what those universes are or what properties they might have because we don't know such a thing. You're trying to not only posit your spirit realm but make all manner of other claims about the nature of it that you have no way of knowing even if it did exist.

No they make theories.  One such theory is that the "other side" of a black hole is another "Big Bang."  And there are differing theories.  I mean sometimes I think some of these theories are the result to too much acid, but yet they exist.  I don't understand how some are rightly called "theories" and not hypothesis.  But whatever.

Evidence. A theory has facts to back it up. In simple terms a theory is an explanation of how the various facts fit together. They take the facts that they have about a black hole and try to explain how those facts fit together. Then when new facts come along they compare it to the old theory/theories and see if the new facts support the theory, or prove it wrong. If the new facts prove it wrong or don't fit, then clearly the theory was wrong and they have to come up with a new theory that better fits the facts. It's a process of refinement. Ultimately as you get more facts you get closer to the truth.

This is as opposed to the religious way of doing things, which is make things up and claim they're real, ignoring anything that proves you wrong.

Okay here you go.  If someone had a hypothesis that a spirit realm existed then how would they go about testing this?

First you would have to define what you're testing for. You need to actually be able to define the "spirit realm" otherwse how would you know it if you found it. That's why you can't prove the existence god (well one of the reasons) because theists can't even define what a god is in the first place.

And my main reason for bringing up a black hole is to demonstrate that "other laws" may exist that are unknown to scientists.

So what? That was never an issue. This is called a Strawman fallacy that you're making. It was never said that there aren't things unknown to scientists. What was said is that you can't honestly make claims about things you can't even define and have no evidence for, because the concept becomes meaningless.
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2012, 12:14:41 PM »
I just wanted to second this - I'm tired of 'cloud people'.  We are people of the 21st century - it's about damn time we learned to give a rat's ass about what happens in this life and in this world rather than what is going to happen after this life or after this world...  Concentrating on the 'supernatural' your whole life is setting the race of humanity to absolute and utter failure..  Epic fail.

It is called deferred gratification.

If I do what I'm told by my Holy Man in this life, I will be granted pleasurable exceptions in the next life.

OR,

My Holy Man is controlling me in this life by using the promise/threat of an afterlife.   
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 12:56:26 PM »
I do not understand.  Why can it not have a bearing on whether or not something could be true?  I mean it should at least be worth investigating.


Lets say someone has a dream that there is an advanced civilarizion(but not possessing FTL  technology) on the fouth planet around a star that is 9670 light years from earth. They propose it is real, do you "accept this" theory as reasonable? Or would you ignore it as unsupported? Lets us say the
1200 years from now that we find out that there is actually an advanced civilization on said planet. Yes, the theory was valid, but it was...given the fact it was unsupported and untestable it was still
reasonable to ignore it. Certainly it would be unreasonable to change our behavior and expend resources on a welcome center for these aliens in the present time.

That is what Churchs are to me, a series of welcome centers for Aliens that were seen in a dream. There might be a god, sure....but until I see any proof, it is not reasonable to act on this "possibility"

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2012, 01:31:34 PM »
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Why not consider the possibility that all the Marvel superheroes exist.

Because noone has ever claimed or showed that another claimed to be a superhero.

Quote
Your question is nonsensical. "Before" the Big Bang would be "before" time.

As I said before, some scientists theorize that the other side of a black hole is another Big Bang.  It would then follow that our own Big Bang is similar.  Scientists even go so far as to say we "could" be living inside a black hole.  If this is true then it is correct that something did happen "before" our Big Bang (i.e. a black hole formed in another universe).

Many religions allude to the story of the flood of Noah and other such "make believe" stories for example.
and there is no evidence for such a thing.  So these "many religions" including yours are wrong.  And there is no erason to think it is right about anything else.

Oh.  So scientists have investigated the matter.  So my conclusion is correct in that it is at least worth investigating. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 01:33:27 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 01:36:43 PM »
Quote
Why not consider the possibility that all the Marvel superheroes exist.

Because noone has ever claimed or showed that another claimed to be a superhero.

Incorrect. It is a tradition in rural China to have circulating fair where people claim to have superpowers, flying in particular comes to mind.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2012, 02:44:22 PM »
and there is no evidence for such a thing.  So these "many religions" including yours are wrong.  And there is no erason to think it is right about anything else.

Oh.  So scientists have investigated the matter.  So my conclusion is correct in that it is at least worth investigating.
"oh".  Ah, love when Christians won't admit that their lies are wrong and their claims that oooh there are myths around so it must mean it's true are bogus.  People always assumed that the flood happened.  Then when people started looking at the rocks, they noticed that the flood was horseshit.  It was not "Hey the flood was maybe real let's look for it", it was "we're here mining rocks, and something is missing."   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #55 on: May 03, 2012, 03:04:04 PM »
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Then when people started looking at the rocks, they noticed that the flood was horseshit.   

Not all have come to this conclusion.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2012, 03:07:55 PM »
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Then when people started looking at the rocks, they noticed that the flood was horseshit.   

Not all have come to this conclusion.

True, there are those who refuse to look at evidence and operate off of mythology, picking and choosing what evidence they employ in an attempt to justify their belief in that myth.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »
I'd like to reiterate what I said earlier.  Something must exist in nature in order to have an effect on nature.  Therefore, it's impossible for something supernatural - outside nature - to exist.  Even something like a deity would have to exist within nature in order to be able to affect nature.  Now, it's probable our definitions of what is natural will expand as we discover more, but that's only relative to us.  Something we do not understand now is not supernatural, no matter what people think about it.