Author Topic: Is there a supernatural?  (Read 10120 times)

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Offline jakec47

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Is there a supernatural?
« on: April 30, 2012, 05:48:37 PM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible? Do we live in a closed system? Is there a supernatural? Is it possible for their to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2012, 05:56:45 PM »
One of the problems with the supernatural can be described thus:
Everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence. This is an inescapable truth. If you act, then you're changing something. That's the definition. However, the supernatural does not leave behind evidence. Only three conclusions can be drawn from this.
#1: The supernatural exists but does not interact with us in a manner that we can actually perceive, making it useless.
#2: The supernatural exists but does not interact, making it uselesss.
#3: The supernatural does not exist.

I pick #3, as it is the most logical for another reason I'll explain once I return in a few minutes.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible? Do we live in a closed system? Is there a supernatural? Is it possible for their to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?

No evidence.  What do you mean by "closed system"?  how do you define "supernatural". 

if there was a miraculous magical flood that covered the earth, there should be evidence.  If there were magical fire from the sky that destroyed two cities, there shoudl be evidence.  Where is it if your bible isn't a lie?
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 11:36:54 AM »
Thanks for posting here, velkyn. I had forgotten about this thread.

Another problem is that if one exists within the universe, then one must follow the physical laws of the universe. This is not up for discussion or a matter of choice. This is a physical imperative. The supernatural would then need to exist "outside" of the universe (which is impossible, as time and space are requirements for existence) or it wouldn't be supernatural at all.

For these reasons, the only logical conclusion is that the supernatural cannot exist.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 11:39:29 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 11:40:33 AM »
jake, don't forget you have replies waiting for you in this thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21902.msg500831.html#msg500831
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2012, 11:50:57 AM »
It depends up the definition of supernatural.

At one time Giant Squid and ball lightening were treated as supernatural, and now that the've been demonstrated to be real, they are counted amongst the scientific.

That's the basic question here, we are open to evidence. People use the term "close minded" as a pejoritive to atheists and skeptics, but it is always the accuser that has decided on a conclusion without evidence, the very definition of closed minded.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline stuffin

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2012, 01:09:03 PM »
I'm SUPER and I'm NATURAL.

Does that make me SUPERNATURAL
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Offline Nick

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2012, 01:11:24 PM »
No such thing as supernatural or miracles as a result of anything supernatural.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2012, 04:10:16 PM »
We had a supernatural world,as a Haida,,,,there is no evidence for it,but in our everyday world we have reminders of it everywhere our art is
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Offline jakec47

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2012, 06:47:22 PM »
One of the problems with the supernatural can be described thus:
Everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence. This is an inescapable truth. If you act, then you're changing something. That's the definition. However, the supernatural does not leave behind evidence. Only three conclusions can be drawn from this.
#1: The supernatural exists but does not interact with us in a manner that we can actually perceive, making it useless.
#2: The supernatural exists but does not interact, making it uselesss.
#3: The supernatural does not exist.

I pick #3, as it is the most logical for another reason I'll explain once I return in a few minutes.

The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?
I propose that the supernatural exists and does interact but does not leave any evidence of that interaction, perhaps the evidence is of a different realm entirely or the evidence is not physcial but mental or perhaps spiritual if such a state can exist.

What i mean by closed system is that in a closed system nothing can happen outside of what we physically perceive. Thought for example, we cannot touch thought or see thought yet it exists. Does it exist in a physical sense or something else? How can creativity differ in human beings?

If one exists in the universe and must follow the laws of the universe what is something exists that is outside the universe's laws, or that does not have to follow the laws. For example, a human flying would be defying the laws of gravity, but what if the laws are only relative to this reality, what if there are multiple realities were the laws differ?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2012, 07:00:13 PM »
So, you're talking about something that can have an effect without having a discernible cause.  As in, there is no way to explain it by anything that exists in nature (meaning, the universe as a whole).  I don't see that as being possible.  We may not understand the cause, but that there is a cause goes without saying, and that cause must exist in nature or else it could not have an effect on nature.

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2012, 08:21:13 PM »
jakec47

An example of something you would consider supernatural would help. Something that you think happened would be even better.

Personally, I don't know of any. Nor do I suspect any.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2012, 10:04:49 PM »
for all you Tragically Hip fans out there...jake

 Does the snake just dream up the poisin in his head?
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2012, 10:20:15 PM »
So, you're talking about something that can have an effect without having a discernible cause.  As in, there is no way to explain it by anything that exists in nature (meaning, the universe as a whole).  I don't see that as being possible.  We may not understand the cause, but that there is a cause goes without saying, and that cause must exist in nature or else it could not have an effect on nature.
In another post, if I can find it, there was an amazing discussion on causality - I don't remember if it was related to a law of nature, i.e. causality is a naturally occurring event in which everything is determined.  I will try to see if I can locate that thread..  it may validate what you are saying here.

Ah - see here http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21700.0.html  under 'formal debates', which should confirm your statement, which would sum up this thread as well.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 10:25:42 PM by jeremy0 »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2012, 11:00:06 PM »
Quote
One of the problems with the supernatural can be described thus:
Everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence. This is an inescapable truth. If you act, then you're changing something. That's the definition. However, the supernatural does not leave behind evidence. Only three conclusions can be drawn from this.
#1: The supernatural exists but does not interact with us in a manner that we can actually perceive, making it useless.
#2: The supernatural exists but does not interact, making it uselesss.
#3: The supernatural does not exist.

I pick #3, as it is the most logical for another reason I'll explain once I return in a few minutes

But it seems you assume that everything that can be discovered has been discovered.  Scientists have only recently theorised the existence of dark matter and dark energy.  The more we learn the more it seems there is to learn. 

According to the evidence what was the cause of the Big Bang?  There is evidence that it happened but no evidence of why it happened.  So either there is no evidence or scientists have yet to discover it.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 11:14:40 PM »
Quote
One of the problems with the supernatural can be described thus:
Everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence. This is an inescapable truth. If you act, then you're changing something. That's the definition. However, the supernatural does not leave behind evidence. Only three conclusions can be drawn from this.
#1: The supernatural exists but does not interact with us in a manner that we can actually perceive, making it useless.
#2: The supernatural exists but does not interact, making it uselesss.
#3: The supernatural does not exist.

I pick #3, as it is the most logical for another reason I'll explain once I return in a few minutes

But it seems you assume that everything that can be discovered has been discovered.  Scientists have only recently theorised the existence of dark matter and dark energy.  The more we learn the more it seems there is to learn. 

According to the evidence what was the cause of the Big Bang?  There is evidence that it happened but no evidence of why it happened.  So either there is no evidence or scientists have yet to discover it.
??   :-[
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2012, 11:22:02 PM »
I'm just saying perhaps science does not yet have the means to detect evidence of the supernatural.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2012, 11:24:53 PM »
There used to be more unknowns then there are now. When I was in high school photosynthesis was a mystery. We knew it happened, but not how. It could have been thought of as potentially supernatural. Five years later science figured out how and now high school textbooks tell a very different story.

We have only been doing this science stuff seriously for a few hundred  years. And we had to start out taking baby steps. These days we area taking huge leaps and bounds. So far, nothing that we have discovered points to anything other than natural processes and natural causes.

It is of course possible that someday we will find something that we just can't explain. We may have already found things that we can't explain and just don't know it yet. But for now, those things that we have managed to explain are all looking natural, and we are extrapolating, based on past successes, when we say with confidence that we will eventually be able to explain much, much more.

You are going to have to wait until we finally say we are perplexed before any argument espousing the supernatural has a chance. Science has to fail before religion has a chance to succeed in that arena.



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Offline thunderridge

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2012, 11:49:38 PM »
Magic is impossible.  Things can seem magical.  But there is always a natural explanation.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2012, 11:56:56 PM »
I'm just saying perhaps science does not yet have the means to detect evidence of the supernatural.

But then it isn't supernatural. It's just something that we haven't figured out how to recognize yet.
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2012, 01:51:47 AM »
The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?

Interaction brings about change. Hell, existence brings about change. The supernatural does not. Did you even read what I posted?

I propose that the supernatural exists and does interact but does not leave any evidence of that interaction, perhaps the evidence is of a different realm entirely or the evidence is not physcial but mental or perhaps spiritual if such a state can exist.

Clearly the answer to my question above is "no".
If it interacts in a way that we cannot perceive, then it is useless.

Thought for example, we cannot touch thought or see thought yet it exists. Does it exist in a physical sense or something else? How can creativity differ in human beings?

Thoughts are originated in the brain, which is an electrochemical "machine". It's entirely physical. As for creativity, that depends on many things, like upbringing and genetics.

If one exists in the universe and must follow the laws of the universe what is something exists that is outside the universe's laws, or that does not have to follow the laws. For example, a human flying would be defying the laws of gravity, but what if the laws are only relative to this reality, what if there are multiple realities were the laws differ?

Useless to speculate, as once you were in those "realities"[1], you'd have to follow their laws. Ergo, the supernatural would become natural once in this universe.

But it seems you assume that everything that can be discovered has been discovered.

Not at all. How the hell did you get that?
Didn't I tell you that "reading between the lines" doesn't work when the lines don't exist, and that in those cases you're just projecting?

According to the evidence what was the cause of the Big Bang?  There is evidence that it happened but no evidence of why it happened.  So either there is no evidence or scientists have yet to discover it.

If there is evidence, then there's no supernatural. The supernatural does not leave behind evidence, remember? Regardless, we would have to find something that we could not explain. Ever. Something like the entire universe suddenly becoming filled with visible light, or time flowing backwards. Or an amputee being healed.
 1. Your term, not mine.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 02:03:36 AM by Lucifer »
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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2012, 01:55:52 AM »
I'm just saying perhaps science does not yet have the means to detect evidence of the supernatural.

Are microbes supernatural?  We couldn't see them before we had microscopes.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 07:36:26 AM »
I'm just saying perhaps science does not yet have the means to detect evidence of the supernatural.

Yes. Until it does, it is blind speculation; and with speculation without evidence any claim can be made regardless of it being true or false. It would be akin to people guessing about how many molecules are in a jar without knowing the size of the jar, or the substance within. Any claim could be true, people could debate whether the jar was a vaccum or filled with lead. None the less, I am not going to go look at each claim as if it is right until proven otherwise, particularlyly when a lot of people seem to be arguing that the jar is filled with gold that cures cancer.



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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2012, 08:58:01 AM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible? Do we live in a closed system? Is there a supernatural? Is it possible for their to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?

Can we backtrack a bit to define what you mean by "supernatural"?  I'm not sure from what you've said later on whether you are talking about events that would be explainable as part of the normal functioning of the universe if we only knew how to detect and understand them.......

....or do you mean events that overrule or break the physical laws of the universe (whether we currently know what those laws are or not)?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2012, 09:17:04 AM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible? Do we live in a closed system? Is there a supernatural? Is it possible for their to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?

Answers in order:

No..........Have you ever performed one ?

No..........Have you ever had a sun burn ?   Yes.......The universe is a closed system.

No..........Have you ever witnessed it ?

No..........Just asking the question should tell you so.



Have a nice day.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 09:19:31 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2012, 09:17:56 AM »
The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?
I propose that the supernatural exists and does interact but does not leave any evidence of that interaction, perhaps the evidence is of a different realm entirely or the evidence is not physcial but mental or perhaps spiritual if such a state can exist.

If there was suprenatural interaction and it left no evidence (as you say), the challenge would be for you to prove it occurred. Unfortunately, until you can provide evidence that supernatural events occur, you cannot prove the supernatural exists.

If we did develope ways to prove the supernatural, would it then be supernatural?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 09:45:00 AM »
Question for everyone...are miracles possible?
No. Hence, this website.
Quote
Do we live in a closed system?
It's not entirely clear what this is even supposed to mean.
Quote
Is there a supernatural?
No. There is no reason to believe there is. What people call "supernatural" is just everything that falls under the category "Stuff we can't explain yet." Note that this category has gotten significantly smaller, entirely due to science and much to the chagrin of religion. 
Quote
Is it possible for their [sic] to exist things that are not of this natural world, and if so how can we know that?
It is pretty much meaningless to talk of things "that are not of this natural world" existing, as well as to talk of being able to perceive things that exist in a reality separate from our own. It's like asking what color Unicorn farts are.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:26 AM »

Quote
The inescapable truth that everything that interacts with the universe leaves evidence, how is this truth?
I propose that the supernatural exists and does interact but does not leave any evidence of that interaction, perhaps the evidence is of a different realm entirely or the evidence is not physical but mental or perhaps spiritual if such a state can exist.

As pointed out to you already--if you have no evidence for a thing, then you can propose nothing on the possibility of its corporeal existence, and it must remain as simply an idea of mind. Your particular argument is self-refuting and you should see that.

Quote
What i mean by closed system is that in a closed system nothing can happen outside of what we physically perceive. Thought for example, we cannot touch thought or see thought yet it exists. Does it exist in a physical sense or something else? How can creativity differ in human beings?

This is one more thing that you should already know. Thought is a byproduct of the workings of the material brain/mind complex. Mind is a manifestation of the physical processes of a properly functioning brain. Without physical/material brains there are no minds.

The brain/mind complex is an open system-- As it constantly interacts with its natural environment through the senses, and therefore the information it receives from that interaction forms the everchanging mind to be what it is on an ongoing basis.

Quote
If one exists in the universe and must follow the laws of the universe what if something exists that is outside the universe's laws, or that does not have to follow the laws. For example, a human flying would be defying the laws of gravity, but what if the laws are only relative to this reality, what if there are multiple realities were the laws differ?

"What if". Far too many in that paragraph.

What if you got off your ass and volunteered at a local food bank ? What if you gave a dollar a day to feed hungry children around the world ? What if you give a $500 donation that would dig a well and provide safe water to a third world community ? What if you allowed your mind to be free ?

If you do those things then good...now drop the delusion and you'll be considered a rational human again.

Do you get my point ?

Who in their right rational mind should give a flying fuck if some invisible to us "thing" exists outside of the universe ? Humanity needs to grow up and get there chicken shitted heads out of their celestial obsessed asses and start trying to find ways to make this planet a better place. I get sick and tired of these types of discussions that have zero fucking relevance to our current reality and serve the only purpose of exposing the deep seeded mental abnormalities and unnecessary fears of our species.

We have the privilege of having far superior knowledge and information here in the 21st. century than any other period in history, and yet the majority choose to allow their minds to be irrationally stuck in the cesspit of bronze age thinking and ignorance, clinging to phantoms and superstitions. They look to the heavens for answers and get none, and then have the audacity to disrespect or disregard the truthful answers that are here in this reality and given to us by the power of the self-correcting and honest scientific method.

What a disgusting shame.

Carry on though, if you must..... But your problem Jake, as with all others like you, is that you haven't found what's truly worthwhile to you in this life. Only when you do that, will you find the meaning of your life, and be able to cast all your fears and superstitions aside.

Cheers     
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Is there a supernatural?
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2012, 06:34:57 PM »
Who in their right rational mind should give a flying fuck if some invisible to us "thing" exists outside of the universe ? Humanity needs to grow up and get there chicken shitted heads out of their celestial obsessed asses and start trying to find ways to make this planet a better place. I get sick and tired of these types of discussions that have zero fucking relevance to our current reality and serve the only purpose of exposing the deep seeded mental abnormalities and unnecessary fears of our species.

We have the privilege of having far superior knowledge and information here in the 21st. century than any other period in history, and yet the majority choose to allow their minds to be irrationally stuck in the cesspit of bronze age thinking and ignorance, clinging to phantoms and superstitions. They look to the heavens for answers and get none, and then have the audacity to disrespect or disregard the truthful answers that are here in this reality and given to us by the power of the self-correcting and honest scientific method.

What a disgusting shame.

I just wanted to second this - I'm tired of 'cloud people'.  We are people of the 21st century - it's about damn time we learned to give a rat's ass about what happens in this life and in this world rather than what is going to happen after this life or after this world...  Concentrating on the 'supernatural' your whole life is setting the race of humanity to absolute and utter failure..  Epic fail.
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."