Author Topic: unite against the war on women April 28  (Read 2202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2012, 11:06:07 AM »
I should have elaborated further on my opinion because THIS is also part of how I feel. Often times the abuser alienates the victim from anyone who could help them leave.

I think the community helps actively.

It is as if people don't want to know that it is happening next door, so it goes unmentioned between neighbors and at church.  There are traditional unspoken 'rules' where you don't question people on what is happening or it's seen as a private issue that no one need be concerned with.  Then you have individuals who qualify the behavior by implication either dehumanizing the victim with ideas like "She probably talks back a lot.. you know how women are." or dismissing the idea away by believing the abuser could never do such a thing.  I am targeting religious rural communities because I firmly believe the way human value is defined ideologically speaking accompanies how people are treated, so if you have a religious ideology where women are subjugated then it would only predictably serve to enable abuse in the community.  I also think social statistics back this up.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2012, 11:20:38 AM »
...I am targeting religious rural communities because I firmly believe the way human value is defined ideologically speaking accompanies how people are treated, so if you have a religious ideology where women are subjugated then it would only predictably serve to enable abuse in the community.  I also think social statistics back this up.

I agree with this. Women are basically considered property in the bible, with the man over her in every way. No one else in a community like that is going to speak out about a man "disciplining" his woman. Add in the shame that the women feel, the insecurity and fear that they deserved it, and the naive belief that the man will change because he loves her. It's a recipe for disaster. Its only within my lifetime that police will even do anything about a domestic disturbance call. It used to be considered a family matter, and they would not intervene.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7276
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2012, 11:31:03 AM »
I could easily stand with Xavier from X-men!

Offline Gnu Ordure

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3832
  • Darwins +109/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2012, 06:31:07 PM »
kindred:
Quote
Seen domestic violence at home.

I see you're singing the same old song, kindred. We've talked about this before.

You were abused as a child; it has affected your perceptions, and now you defend abusers and blame the victim. Your comments on this thread are entirely predictable.

When are you going to wise up and get some help for yourself? Seriously.

Offline kindred

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1115
  • Darwins +10/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2012, 06:51:47 AM »
kindred:
Quote
Seen domestic violence at home.

I see you're singing the same old song, kindred. We've talked about this before.

You were abused as a child; it has affected your perceptions, and now you defend abusers and blame the victim. Your comments on this thread are entirely predictable.

When are you going to wise up and get some help for yourself? Seriously.

Why are you appealing to my humanity? Give me a logical argument.

Don't intervene because there is not much to be done. Its the reason why charities should not try and help impoverished africans, because it is not cost-effective. For the same amount of time money and effort, you could help a much closer place and net a higher amount of increase in happiness.
"Keep calm and carry on"

"I trust you are not in too much distress"

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10969
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 03:36:29 PM »
kindred, Gnu Ordure made a logical argument. He explained that your views are skewed and why they are what they are.
Why don't you try making a logical argument that isn't an emotional[1] one?
 1. Meaning "based on emotion", rather than "appealing to emotion".
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 03:42:03 PM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6574
  • Darwins +869/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2012, 04:22:37 PM »
Don't want to get too far into this family violence issue because it will suck up all of my energy...my crazy father abused my mother for years. It was the 1970's and women could not get credit cards or rent an apartment without a man co-signing the lease. She did not know how to drive. And she had four kids. How was she supposed to leave him?

It took as long for her to get away as it took for her to get entangled with him. And she got no help from anyone, because people said the kind of stuff that kindred says here.....

The facts:
Violent abusers are often sociopaths who know how to manipulate situations to trap the victim. Like child molesters, they have a standard MO. He looks for a woman who is in trouble, wants to get away from a bad home life, and he acts as her knight in shining armor.

He is charming, a dream come true, kind and loving. She can't believe how lucky she is to meet him-- her friends are so jealous. They don't have boyfriends who give them flowers and candy. She ignores the little signs that something might be wrong with him-- all his previous girlfriends are bitches who badmouth him for no reason. 

He finds out all about her, rents her favorite movies, takes her to the places she likes to eat.  Then one day, he slaps her. She is shocked, but he apologizes and says it will never happen again. More flowers and candy follow. She thinks she must have done something wrong. And he convinces her that was it. She just has to stay in line.

It starts slowly and then escalates. Few guys are psycho enough to beat a woman senseless on the first date. At first it just seems like he really cares about her, wanting to know who her friends are, telling her he likes her in dresses instead of pants. Then he is limiting her phone calls, timing her trips to the store, monitoring who she spends time with. And the beatings increase.

If there are kids, he threatens to hurt them if she dares to think about leaving him. She buys a gun, but women who shoot abusers usually go to prison, because they have to shoot him when he is asleep or drunk. Otherwise he will get the gun away and kill her.
 
Sometimes the best thing she can do is stay with him and hope it does not get worse. Because if she does leave he will find her. (My father tracked my mother down across seven states.)  And he will kill her if he can. It is too common in the news: estranged husband tracks down and kills wife, kids and turns the gun on himself. She should have....what?

So yes, we need laws against this sh!t. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 04:50:48 PM »
nogodsforme ,

I'm curious about an opinion you may or may not have.... Do you think the guy in your scenario above had the intention of being an abuser? Do you think abusive men always preselect women who are easier to abuse? Do you think they are even aware that they will become an abuser[1]?

I know lots of things that can start/cause abuse alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction, sex addiction, mental defects, chemical imbalances, poor up bringing, lack of coping skills, etc. (There are too many to list.)

But when you say:

Quote
He is charming, a dream come true, kind and loving[2]. She can't believe how lucky she is to meet him-- her friends are so jealous. They don't have boyfriends who give them flowers and candy. She ignores the little signs that something might be wrong with him-- all his previous girlfriends are bitches who badmouth him for no reason[3]

He finds out all about her, rents her favorite movies, takes her to the places she likes to eat.  Then one day, he slaps her. She is shocked, but he apologizes and says it will never happen again. More flowers and candy follow. She thinks she must have done something wrong.[4] And he convinces her that was it. She just has to stay in line.

It starts slowly and then escalates. Few guys are psycho enough to beat a woman senseless on the first date. At first it just seems like he really cares about her[5], wanting to know who her friends are, telling her he likes her in dresses instead of pants. Then he is limiting her phone calls, timing her trips to the store, monitoring who she spends time with. And the beatings increase.[6] 
 2. What if he really is?
 3. What if they really were?
 4. What if she did do something wrong, legitimately that triggers his response.
 5. Most of the time doesn't the abuser in domestic situations actually care?
 6. Usually in cycles or phases though. There are good times which is what makes it even more complicated.

It gives me mixed emotions. There's no reason to assume the women will never do anything to trigger a violent episode, one of my favorite sayings however is, "Words don't equal violence." . I wanna be clear and say that I never think anyone male or female can do something that warrants being abused. But again I have mixed emotions on this.

Let's say for arguments sake a women who has been in several abusive relationships meets a man who himself has never been an abuser and has had many healthy relationships. This woman IMO would respond to disagreements, confrontation, and everyday life as if she was still in an abusive relationship[7]. So could it not be argued that this particular repeat victim, as I call her, could in fact be the cause of the current abuse?

Or take a child who was abused and grows up with out developing the proper coping skills. If they never learn how to cope with situational problems and they respond in a way that pushes people to their limit are the not the cause rather than the affect?

What I'm saying is, take a previous abused person and put them in a seemingly healthy situation. Would it not turn unhealthy simply because they were put in to the mix?

I know this is why they say abuse is a cycle that's hard to break. But I have a hard time rationalizing the before mentioned information, and I'm curious how you would respond. Thanks.
 1. Assuming it's their first time.
 7. Let's call it PTSD for arguments sake, and a common understanding of what I'm describing.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3002
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 08:30:41 PM »
Abusers are bullies. Bullies prey on the weak that don't fight back. All you need to do is fight back.

So what happens when you can't get the abuser out of your home and get the locks changed and get a restraining order the same day you decide that enough is enough?  One has to sleep eventually, and what's to stop the abuser from retaliating -- Stabbing you, shooting you, strangling you or smothering you with a pillow, then going through the house to kill the kids and pets before hanging himself from a beam in the basement?

Kindred, on the day that I separated from My ex-spouse, the above is exactly the scenario I imagined.  Rather than physically take on a man 8 inches taller, with 25 years of martial arts training and a penchant for smashing holes in walls and abusing a deaf cat for meowing too loud...

...I left.  I summoned up the courage to leave, and I, My daughter, and the aforementioned deaf cat were out less than 2 hours later.  I left behind a mortgage-free home on which I had made 99% of the payments, and all the personal effects that we couldn't take with us in the cab.  It took a couple of years to get a buyout for half of the house's value; get our belongings back; settle the custody issues; and finalize the divorce.  All the while I was in a hypervigilant state, afraid to go to certain areas of the city for fear of running into My ex.  I had to save up for a down payment on a new house.  The stress caused Me to develop gastroesophageal reflux, such that when I lay down at night to sleep the stomach acid would sear My throat.

It got better, but not because I physically stood up to the abuser.  I got Myself, daughter and cat out of harm's way and went into hiding, dealing with ex only through My lawyer.  I was fortunate enough to have a decent-paying job and access to free medical care and free counselling; thus, I was an anomaly:  Someone who leaves an abuser and stays gone on the first try.

May 28, 2012  will be the 12th anniversary of that escape, a day I call "Liberation Day."  Leaving that relationship was the hardest fucking thing I have ever done, Kindred, and I'm appalled by your simplistic dismissal of the problems faced by domestic violence victims.  I'm even more horrified by this:

Don't intervene because there is not much to be done. Its the reason why charities should not try and help impoverished africans, because it is not cost-effective. For the same amount of time money and effort, you could help a much closer place and net a higher amount of increase in happiness.

"Cost-effective"?  Seriously?  Lives are at stake, and you're concerned about the money? :o


« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:32:13 PM by Astreja »
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline kindred

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1115
  • Darwins +10/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2012, 05:35:25 AM »
Abusers are bullies. Bullies prey on the weak that don't fight back. All you need to do is fight back.

So what happens when you can't get the abuser out of your home and get the locks changed and get a restraining order the same day you decide that enough is enough?  One has to sleep eventually, and what's to stop the abuser from retaliating -- Stabbing you, shooting you, strangling you or smothering you with a pillow, then going through the house to kill the kids and pets before hanging himself from a beam in the basement?

Kindred, on the day that I separated from My ex-spouse, the above is exactly the scenario I imagined.  Rather than physically take on a man 8 inches taller, with 25 years of martial arts training and a penchant for smashing holes in walls and abusing a deaf cat for meowing too loud...

...I left.  I summoned up the courage to leave, and I, My daughter, and the aforementioned deaf cat were out less than 2 hours later.  I left behind a mortgage-free home on which I had made 99% of the payments, and all the personal effects that we couldn't take with us in the cab.  It took a couple of years to get a buyout for half of the house's value; get our belongings back; settle the custody issues; and finalize the divorce.  All the while I was in a hypervigilant state, afraid to go to certain areas of the city for fear of running into My ex.  I had to save up for a down payment on a new house.  The stress caused Me to develop gastroesophageal reflux, such that when I lay down at night to sleep the stomach acid would sear My throat.

It got better, but not because I physically stood up to the abuser.  I got Myself, daughter and cat out of harm's way and went into hiding, dealing with ex only through My lawyer.  I was fortunate enough to have a decent-paying job and access to free medical care and free counselling; thus, I was an anomaly:  Someone who leaves an abuser and stays gone on the first try.

May 28, 2012  will be the 12th anniversary of that escape, a day I call "Liberation Day."  Leaving that relationship was the hardest fucking thing I have ever done, Kindred, and I'm appalled by your simplistic dismissal of the problems faced by domestic violence victims.  I'm even more horrified by this:

Don't intervene because there is not much to be done. Its the reason why charities should not try and help impoverished africans, because it is not cost-effective. For the same amount of time money and effort, you could help a much closer place and net a higher amount of increase in happiness.

"Cost-effective"?  Seriously?  Lives are at stake, and you're concerned about the money? :o

Cost entails money, time and effort. We only have finite resources in all of those areas, so of course you'd want to be cost effective. Think of it as the emergency triage except applied to EVERYTHING.

Also, I can't really see your point. My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks. My biological mother basically stabbed him in the mid-section with an umbrella and he backed off and never bothered her again. Keep in mind my mother was just a little bit over 5 feet and very small and dainty whilst my grandfather was a man who was in his thirtees and was huge because of a lifetime of physical labor.

Think of it this way, how much money, effort and time would you need to spend to save a woman being tortured and slowly murdered by her husband versus cost of saving a starving dying homeless man who really wants a job? (this is what I think about the subject)

Maybe, I am wrong here. Keep in mind right and wrong is subjective.  But the way I see it, everyone in my family had to deal with physical abuse and that shitty treatment yet there is not a single one us that whined nor even needed help, so why would other people need help? (how I feel about the subject)

Note the compartmentalization.
"Keep calm and carry on"

"I trust you are not in too much distress"

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4363
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2012, 07:43:17 AM »
My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks. My biological mother basically stabbed him in the mid-section with an umbrella and he backed off and never bothered her again.

Well, good for her... but with other men, if you pull a stunt like that, they'll send you to the hospital or the morgue.  Just because that guy backed off after strongly confronted doesn't mean that anyone else will.

Quote
the way I see it, everyone in my family had to deal with physical abuse and that shitty treatment yet there is not a single one us that whined nor even needed help, so why would other people need help? (how I feel about the subject)

Again, just because none of you needed any help doesn't mean that nobody else would.  And even in your case... regardless of whether you needed help, it certainly would have been easier to deal with if you had had help, wouldn't it?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2012, 07:58:42 AM »
Also, I can't really see your point. My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks. My biological mother basically stabbed him in the mid-section with an umbrella and he backed off and never bothered her again. Keep in mind my mother was just a little bit over 5 feet and very small and dainty whilst my grandfather was a man who was in his thirtees and was huge because of a lifetime of physical labor.

Kindred,

So, if your point is that we shouldn't help the people in the abusive relationship because they are there through choice, are you therefore saying that your mother was wrong to help out your grandmother? 

After all, she wasn't the one being abused, your grandmother was.  Or have I misunderstood what you said there?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2012, 11:44:54 AM »
...Also, I can't really see your point. My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks.

Yeah, and standing up to her abuser got my neighbor beaten up. Personal anecdotes are great, but you can't generalize them to the rest of the world.

Quote
Think of it this way, how much money, effort and time would you need to spend to save a woman being tortured and slowly murdered by her husband versus cost of saving a starving dying homeless man who really wants a job? (this is what I think about the subject)

But that's not how the world works. One person spends their time helping people with cancer. Another helps save the environment. Another helps abuse victims. Why? Often for very personal reasons. Emotional reasons. Its very rare for charities to do cost analyses on every possible use of their money, time and effort so that they can make the most efficient use of it. To do so would probably use up any funds they had, and those who have rare issues would never get any help at all.

Quote
But the way I see it, everyone in my family had to deal with physical abuse and that shitty treatment yet there is not a single one us that whined nor even needed help, so why would other people need help? (how I feel about the subject)

Because you were hurt. No one, NO ONE, should have to bear what your family has been through. NO ONE. There are soldiers who've been tortured, people who've suffered terrible diseases, people who have born personal tragedies ... and they survived. Does that mean that we shouldn't even TRY to stop torture, cancer, abuse, and other tragedy? Your logic is faulty. And perhaps you need to feel that way in order to survive what you've endured. I don't know, I'm not your counselor. But this is very important to understand. Your family members did not deserve to be harmed. We are an empathetic species. We have the imagination to understand, to some extent, the pain that others go through. And its natural for us to want to help. Personally, I dream of a world where no one is bullied, no one is beaten, no one is tortured, no one is raped or murdered or robbed. Where each of us can live our lives in peace and harmony and beauty. Yeah, its a dream. And one I'm unlikely to see in my lifetime. But we can at least try to make this world a better place. And if one child doesn't have to go to sleep frightened of what might happen when he closes his eyes, then that's a good thing.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6574
  • Darwins +869/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2012, 02:06:57 PM »
^^^^^^What you said. +1
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6574
  • Darwins +869/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2012, 04:21:25 PM »
nogodsforme ,

I'm curious about an opinion you may or may not have.... Do you think the guy in your scenario above had the intention of being an abuser? Do you think abusive men always preselect women who are easier to abuse? Do you think they are even aware that they will become an abuser[1]?

I know lots of things that can start/cause abuse alcoholism, drug addiction, gambling addiction, sex addiction, mental defects, chemical imbalances, poor up bringing, lack of coping skills, etc. (There are too many to list.)

But when you say:

Quote
He is charming, a dream come true, kind and loving[2]. She can't believe how lucky she is to meet him-- her friends are so jealous. They don't have boyfriends who give them flowers and candy. She ignores the little signs that something might be wrong with him-- all his previous girlfriends are bitches who badmouth him for no reason[3]

He finds out all about her, rents her favorite movies, takes her to the places she likes to eat.  Then one day, he slaps her. She is shocked, but he apologizes and says it will never happen again. More flowers and candy follow. She thinks she must have done something wrong.[4] And he convinces her that was it. She just has to stay in line.

It starts slowly and then escalates. Few guys are psycho enough to beat a woman senseless on the first date. At first it just seems like he really cares about her[5], wanting to know who her friends are, telling her he likes her in dresses instead of pants. Then he is limiting her phone calls, timing her trips to the store, monitoring who she spends time with. And the beatings increase.[6] 
 2. What if he really is?
 3. What if they really were?
 4. What if she did do something wrong, legitimately that triggers his response.
 5. Most of the time doesn't the abuser in domestic situations actually care?
 6. Usually in cycles or phases though. There are good times which is what makes it even more complicated.

It gives me mixed emotions. There's no reason to assume the women will never do anything to trigger a violent episode, one of my favorite sayings however is, "Words don't equal violence." . I wanna be clear and say that I never think anyone male or female can do something that warrants being abused. But again I have mixed emotions on this.

Let's say for arguments sake a women who has been in several abusive relationships meets a man who himself has never been an abuser and has had many healthy relationships. This woman IMO would respond to disagreements, confrontation, and everyday life as if she was still in an abusive relationship[7]. So could it not be argued that this particular repeat victim, as I call her, could in fact be the cause of the current abuse?

Or take a child who was abused and grows up with out developing the proper coping skills. If they never learn how to cope with situational problems and they respond in a way that pushes people to their limit are the not the cause rather than the affect?

What I'm saying is, take a previous abused person and put them in a seemingly healthy situation. Would it not turn unhealthy simply because they were put in to the mix?

I know this is why they say abuse is a cycle that's hard to break. But I have a hard time rationalizing the before mentioned information, and I'm curious how you would respond. Thanks.
 1. Assuming it's their first time.
 7. Let's call it PTSD for arguments sake, and a common understanding of what I'm describing.

I would say that there are men (and some women) predisposed to be abusive in their relationships. I am not talking about someone who was never violent before and now has PTSD from being in Afghanistan--often they know they have a problem. But domestic abusers think everyone else is the problem. Perhaps they were messed up from childhood abuse themselves, or had a screw loose from birth. If there is no intervention, counseling, etc, they are going to be dangerous people. Abusers do look for people who they can dominate. They do not want a challenge--but they do want a conquest.

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2012, 05:18:37 PM »
I don't think I articulated my questions clearly... let me try a different approach. Take a women who was previously abused and put her in a relationship with a healthy sane man. For arguments sake let's say the women doesn't know how to cope well with life's situations[1] and because of this her significant other finds it difficult to deal with and react to her. Is it not possible that over time the man can become an abuser because of her improper response mechanisms?

In other words she is the reason the relationship became unhealthy. Or are you saying that a healthy sane non abusive man should/would know how to properly handle a previously abused woman and she could never initiated the unhealthiness that leads to abuse?
 1. So she responds to them improperly.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6574
  • Darwins +869/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2012, 05:31:26 PM »
If a man really does not want to hit a woman, he won't, no matter what crazy sh!t she does to him. She can't force him to become an abuser. He can dump her or decide to be "just friends" because she is trying to make him into something he does not want to be. (If she is able to manipulate him into beating her against his will, that's a pretty damn psycho relationship right there.) 

We had this discussion about hitting kids. I argued that no child has the power to make a parent use physical punishment if that parent is committed to non-violence. It is not what the child does that provokes the parent. It is the parent who has decided that hitting is one of the appropriate responses to something the kid does.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Kimberly

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1044
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2012, 05:34:33 PM »
Ok, I understand your stance now. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.
Thank you for considering my point of view; however wrong it may be to you.

Offline Seppuku

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3855
  • Darwins +125/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • I am gay for Fred Phelps
    • Seppuku Arts
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2012, 06:20:15 PM »
If a man really does not want to hit a woman, he won't, no matter what crazy sh!t she does to him. She can't force him to become an abuser. He can dump her or decide to be "just friends" because she is trying to make him into something he does not want to be. (If she is able to manipulate him into beating her against his will, that's a pretty damn psycho relationship right there.) 

We had this discussion about hitting kids. I argued that no child has the power to make a parent use physical punishment if that parent is committed to non-violence. It is not what the child does that provokes the parent. It is the parent who has decided that hitting is one of the appropriate responses to something the kid does.

As a man, I don't think anybody could irritate me THAT much. I could easily list all of the occasions where I've hit somebody and in each you might even argue they're justified (when somebody started a fight, people hitting me, that kind of thing). I've never done it out of frustration. The only time I've ever hit a woman is when sparring, but then I used to study Karate, heck in competitions I had to sometimes fight women, so I don't think these count. There's no aggression, you start a fight with a "good luck" and end it by shaking hands, maybe a hug and a pat on the back with a "well done", like Tennis players do at the end of a match.

Obviously, I've not been in that hypothetical situation. I know if I ever cracked under that pressure I would hate myself. The advice I would give to any one who is struck by their partner, whatever the reason should walk away. It's at that point where you should no longer trust that person because they've broken a barrier that should not be broken. How can you trust your partner if even for a brief moment they think it's okay to hit you?
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline meconopsilo

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 67
  • Darwins +1/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2012, 06:47:35 PM »
i believe that all women should be loved and respected due to the fact that i watched my mother get beaten brutally by my father countless times as a child . also i believe that all women are beautiful in there own way. like a butterfly or a dragon or something. maybe a butterfly dragon lol.
balls

Offline Joetruth2

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2012, 10:33:09 PM »
I guess this "War" is something new by some of the comments seen here. Mostly Republican right wing conservative wife beaters. When did this activity start and is it part of the conservative platform of the GOP? I might have to start beating my wife of 45 years. Being a conservative I was unaware it was my duty.

Where I grew up plenty of alcoholic bums beat their wives. My neighborhood was mostly poor working men with large families and stay at home wives. Most of them were not republicans. Most of them could care less about politics. Most of them simply had bad lives, little hope, low self esteem and anger issues related to their failure to live up to their own expectations. The women were not in any position to take their 4 or 5 children and run off. No ability to take care of their children or themselves was the trap that confined and bonded them to their shit bag husbands.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3002
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #50 on: May 23, 2012, 01:12:46 AM »
Cost entails money, time and effort. We only have finite resources in all of those areas, so of course you'd want to be cost effective. Think of it as the emergency triage except applied to EVERYTHING.

I don't subscribe to the scarcity mentality.  I believe that there are ample resources to deal with all problems that humans face, but that often there simply isn't the will to spend those monies on unpopular or controversial things.

Quote
Also, I can't really see your point. My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks. My biological mother basically stabbed him in the mid-section with an umbrella and he backed off and never bothered her again.

Kindred, I am not your mother nor your grandmother, and the man who abused your grandmother is probably not the man who abused My family.  There really isn't a good way to draw parallels between our experiences, because we seem to have very different backgrounds.  I did not come from a family with domestic violence problems, so when it happened to Me it was completely unexpected -- Especially coming from someone whom I had previously trusted.

Furthermore,  I see no reason for attacking someone with an umbrella when there are more elegant legal alternatives.  If I had done what your mother did, I would have automatically been arrested and spent time in jail because Manitoba has a zero tolerance policy regarding domestic violence.  I could have lost My job and custody of My then-minor daughter.

Quote
Think of it this way, how much money, effort and time would you need to spend to save a woman being tortured and slowly murdered by her husband versus cost of saving a starving dying homeless man who really wants a job? (this is what I think about the subject)

Why should we have to choose?  Help both of them.  Also bear in mind that when you help someone with kids escape an abusive situation, it lessens the probability that the kids will see abuse as "normal" and behave abusively when they become adults.  In that respect, you aren't saving one abused woman (or man; men are also abused in intimate relationships).  You are saving multiple generations.

Quote
But the way I see it, everyone in my family had to deal with physical abuse and that shitty treatment yet there is not a single one us that whined nor even needed help, so why would other people need help? (how I feel about the subject)

I understand what you're saying, Kindred, but I'm just not the kind of person who can sit down, shut up and tough it out when something horrible is going on.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline kindred

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1115
  • Darwins +10/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #51 on: June 07, 2012, 05:21:57 AM »
Wait, you guys mean to tell me that you don't subscribe to efficiency to where it matters most? Helping others. The big movers and shakers in charity aren't the people that have good intentions, its the ones that went about things logically. Its not the charities that save people because of emotional reasons, its the scientist that applied mendelian genetics to increase world food production.

Its not your intention that matters, its the consequences of your action. If you donate to a charity that gives to the wartorn tribes of africa, then you're a dolt. You are supporting the tribal chiefs who go to war because they're the ones who benefit from the donation. You finance their opressive regimes.

This is what I'm getting at. Why spend time and money on such a complex matter when there are other matters that will give a much better return.
"Keep calm and carry on"

"I trust you are not in too much distress"

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3002
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2012, 12:39:11 AM »
Wait, you guys mean to tell me that you don't subscribe to efficiency to where it matters most? Helping others.

No problem, Kindred:  You help others after your fashion and I'll do it after My fashion.  That way, causes near to My heart will still get some assistance even if you don't see such assistance as an efficient use of your resources.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline kindred

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1115
  • Darwins +10/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2012, 11:56:23 PM »
Wait, you guys mean to tell me that you don't subscribe to efficiency to where it matters most? Helping others.

No problem, Kindred:  You help others after your fashion and I'll do it after My fashion.  That way, causes near to My heart will still get some assistance even if you don't see such assistance as an efficient use of your resources.

Isn't that one of the reasons the human race is in trouble? Most people do things with compassion and empathy. Example: bees are dying off and whether it is natural or not, its hurting agriculture and horticulture BUT since they are not cute and do not inspire empathy, there is not alot of resources alloted to the bee problem even though saving the bees would save more people than say, saving cute cats and dogs.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 11:58:22 PM by kindred »
"Keep calm and carry on"

"I trust you are not in too much distress"

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3002
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #54 on: June 09, 2012, 12:06:41 AM »
Kindred, with 7 billion people on this planet I don't see why all 7 billion of us should concentrate on, say, saving the bees.  (I think bees are adorable, BTW, and I am quite worried about them.)

The saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth" springs to mind.  Having an embarrassment of riches to spend on a problem is useless unless that money is properly allocated to people with the knowledge and commitment to turn it into something of value.  It's important to support research, but not every biologist on the planet wants to spend their career studying bees.  Research- and charity-wise, if you let everyone follow their passions I think you'll get superior results... And more of them.

Perhaps what we really need is a more thoughtful alternative to charitable giving, whereby critical projects do get fast-tracked and brought to the public's attention if they need additional financial support.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 12:09:01 AM by Astreja »
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #55 on: June 09, 2012, 03:41:32 AM »
Also, I can't really see your point. My biological mother stood up to the guy abusing my grandmother(who adopted me) and that stopped him in his tracks. My biological mother basically stabbed him in the mid-section with an umbrella and he backed off and never bothered her again. Keep in mind my mother was just a little bit over 5 feet and very small and dainty whilst my grandfather was a man who was in his thirtees and was huge because of a lifetime of physical labor.

Kindred,

So, if your point is that we shouldn't help the people in the abusive relationship because they are there through choice, are you therefore saying that your mother was wrong to help out your grandmother? 

After all, she wasn't the one being abused, your grandmother was.  Or have I misunderstood what you said there?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jeremy0

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 694
  • Darwins +26/-12
  • Gender: Male
    • Economics and Technology
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #56 on: June 09, 2012, 08:44:22 PM »
I would like to point out that it's also a condition that exists where the abused get addicted somehow to the abuse - i.e. seek out abusive situations/relationships.  My source, of course, is 'love line on the radio'.  :) not sure how credible that is.

Sorry if any of you have been in an abusive relationship - I can't really relate.  I can relate to women who like to makes stuff up about you just because you realized you didn't want a serious relationship out of it, the woman did, and you broke it off before it became really hurtful.  I just don't understand women sometimes..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline kindred

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1115
  • Darwins +10/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: unite against the war on women April 28
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2012, 10:34:04 PM »
Kindred, with 7 billion people on this planet I don't see why all 7 billion of us should concentrate on, say, saving the bees.  (I think bees are adorable, BTW, and I am quite worried about them.)

The saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth" springs to mind.  Having an embarrassment of riches to spend on a problem is useless unless that money is properly allocated to people with the knowledge and commitment to turn it into something of value.  It's important to support research, but not every biologist on the planet wants to spend their career studying bees.  Research- and charity-wise, if you let everyone follow their passions I think you'll get superior results... And more of them.

Perhaps what we really need is a more thoughtful alternative to charitable giving, whereby critical projects do get fast-tracked and brought to the public's attention if they need additional financial support.

There it is again. Emotion driving your logic. You do understand that bees pollinate plants? Nobody gives a flying f*ck about what you, I or anyone feels about the problem. Only the results matter and we'd get more results from saving the bees.

Before we start dealing with problems like domestic abuse that require a huge input but relatively small output, we need to exhaust other higher yielding opportunities.
"Keep calm and carry on"

"I trust you are not in too much distress"