Author Topic: Moral laws of the Bible  (Read 15116 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #406 on: May 07, 2012, 07:15:48 AM »
Is Jesus recorded as ever having killed anyone?
No, but he says he is going to kill more people than have been killed in the last 10 wars.  (Rev:19:11 onwards to Re:19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.)
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Does this mean he did no practice what he preached?
Well there's a lot of Hellfire and Damnation in which the soul is killed, which Jesus says is the worst thing. M't:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Or does this mean you don't understand what Jesus meant when he said that and that maybe you should consider a second opinion.
I shouldn't think so.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #407 on: May 07, 2012, 08:34:57 AM »
No he didn't. It's clearly a reply from the king to his servant.

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L 19:25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’
L 19:26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

Still, in this parable, the king (representing Jesus) killed everyone who resisted his rule. And since Jesus is the one telling the parable, what is the message?

"Christians, kill everyone who doesn't worship me."
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #408 on: May 07, 2012, 09:22:23 AM »

Or does this mean you don't understand what Jesus meant when he said that and that maybe you should consider a second opinion.


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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #409 on: May 07, 2012, 10:14:21 AM »
Still, in this parable, the king (representing Jesus) killed everyone who resisted his rule. And since Jesus is the one telling the parable, what is the message?

"Christians, kill everyone who doesn't worship me."

I've always understood it differently. You're right about the king representing Jesus, but I thought the ending meant something along the lines of "Those who deny me as Lord will face eternal damnation in the end." That would seem to go along with the rest of his message, like Matthew 10:33: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #410 on: May 07, 2012, 11:15:42 AM »
I've always understood it differently. You're right about the king representing Jesus, but I thought the ending meant something along the lines of "Those who deny me as Lord will face eternal damnation in the end." That would seem to go along with the rest of his message, like Matthew 10:33: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Other parables do read like that, say, the parable of the tenants or the parable of the ten talents.  They have where god kills the "bad" people, or casts them into hell (the gnashing of teeth thing) himself.  This particular parable in Luke is the only one where is has believers being told to to the killing rather than JC or god taking a hand.   
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #411 on: May 07, 2012, 01:49:21 PM »
Quote from: Alzael
In furtherance of your "education" (geez I can't believe I actually used that word in anyway that was applicable to Jst)

I am sorry.  I lost interest at this point.  Is your need to belittle me because you have issues with your self-esteem?  This is usually the case.

Quote from: 12 monkeys

The reason they invaded North America,killing 90% of the indigenous population in the process. They used the supposed moral and religious superiority to carry this out. They thought and I am sure you still do believe that you choose God therefore you are superior,no?

do you disagree with this post? or were none of these people Christians

I will trade you question for question.  I will go first.  No I don't believe I am superior to you, only different.  Now your turn.  Do you believe you are superior me? 

Second question.  Where they Christians?  They may have been at one time, but the moment they began murdering innocents, or even began plotting it, then they ceased to be Christian.  Your turn again.  If a person makes a statement does that statement become fact?

I posed this question to my nine year old:  If someone is killing other people are they Christians?  He answered "no".  I said, "what if they said they were Christians?"  He said, they were telling a lie.  Is this logic that hard to accept?

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I am sure if there are Christians 500 years from now they will look upon your actions as barbaric,as you look upon the Christians of 500 years ago barbaric.  You could have fed the starving but failed to do so,maybe 500 years from now the Christians of the future will feed the world so there is no problem with starvation  They may have abandon your version of Christianity becauses it is barbaric,just as you have abandoned the Chritianity of 500 years ago as barbaric.

I do not believe the apostles were barbaric.  I believe they were very good Christians.  In fact, I probably could never become as good of a Christian as they were.  Your argument is invalid.  Christianity does not change.  Once it changes it is no longer Christian.

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It is only called that because people did not agree with what it had to say.

If you really want to know then perhaps you should ask PlainJane.  She seems to be more educated in these matters than I.  In fact, I will ask her for you.

Quote from: joebbowers

This was a parable.  And I have already addressed this.  This part of it will be fulfilled at Armageddon.  Try harder.

Quote from: screwtape
In our daily practice of them, they really aren't.

I agree.  And I fully agree that people are capable of being either moral or immoral apart from God.  I have never believed otherwise.

Quote from: Graybeard

Rev:19:11 onwards to Re:19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is in the future.  Christians do not live in the future.

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M't:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Still future.  In addition this was not instruction given to any of his disciples.  Although I don't understand how the soul can be "destroyed" in "Gehenna" and at the same time burned forever and ever.  I wonder if fire is ever used as a symbol for anything in the Bible?

Quote from:  joebbowers
 
Still, in this parable, the king (representing Jesus) killed everyone who resisted his rule. And since Jesus is the one telling the parable, what is the message?

"Christians, kill everyone who doesn't worship me."

These servants that will receive this command are not earthly but heavenly.  But nevertheless, according to the Bible, when he issues this command it will be obeyed.   However, the fact that this command comes at the end of everything else in the parable shows this command was not to be given immediately.  So fear not.  If anyone comes to kill you they will not be Christian.  In fact, it cannot be given until Jesus is fully takes rulership of the earth.  The parable has begun but the end is still in the future.

Quote from: Zankuu
I've always understood it differently. You're right about the king representing Jesus, but I thought the ending meant something along the lines of "Those who deny me as Lord will face eternal damnation in the end." That would seem to go along with the rest of his message, like Matthew 10:33: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

We are in complete agreement.  It seems rather simple to me.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline screwtape

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #412 on: May 07, 2012, 02:13:48 PM »
Second question.  Where they Christians?  They may have been at one time, but the moment they began murdering innocents, or even began plotting it, then they ceased to be Christian. 

Why?  I don't understand.  If they then repent of their sin, are they xians again?  What if a xian cheats on his wife?  Does that make him cease to be a xian?  And what if he repents?  Xian again?  Is it the act of sinning that makes them cease being xian?  If so, then don't most xians spend most of their time not being xians?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #413 on: May 07, 2012, 02:15:46 PM »
I will trade you question for question.  I will go first.  No I don't believe I am superior to you, only different.  Now your turn.  Do you believe you are superior me? 

Second question.  Where they Christians?  They may have been at one time, but the moment they began murdering innocents, or even began plotting it, then they ceased to be Christian.  Your turn again.  If a person makes a statement does that statement become fact?
Jst, you are using the "no truescotsman" fallacy again.  Until you or someone else can show that they and they alone are the ones who have it "right" with their god, your claims are nonsense.  Your bible has that it fine for people to kill others as long as this god approves of it, and until you can show that it doesn't or that it even exists, your claims fail.  Your argument might make sense to a 9 year old, not to someone who is an adult and knows that no Christian has yet shown themselves as the only "true" ones.  You say that other Christians who don't agree with you are lying.  They would say the same about you. 

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I do not believe the apostles were barbaric.  I believe they were very good Christians.  In fact, I probably could never become as good of a Christian as they were.  Your argument is invalid.  Christianity does not change.  Once it changes it is no longer Christian.
Since slavery was accepted without question by these "good Christian" apostles, does that mean that all good christians should accept slavery as okay?
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This is in the future.  Christians do not live in the future.
Really, then who is JC ruling over for that millenia after those "evil" people are killed"?

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These servants that will receive this command are not earthly but heavenly.
  And that claim again has nothing to support it.  You're making things up again, jst.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #414 on: May 07, 2012, 02:34:34 PM »

I am sorry.  I lost interest at this point.  Is your need to belittle me because you have issues with your self-esteem?  This is usually the case.

So in other words you stop listening as soon as you hear something that you don't like. I like how you try to shift things around to make it seem like I am the one with the problem. It fits with your character actually. There's no consideration of the fact that I maybe just find your behaviour reprehensible, or that maybe your blatant dishonesty is unpleasant to me. No, you automatically assume that I belittle you because of a problem with myself. Because as always, you're never the one at fault, Jst. just as you're the one with the true version of Christianity.

No, this is why I belittle you. Because your behaviour is contemptible. For example:

Have you ever tried to find an answer other than God does not exist?

The purpose of this question is to imply that we have simply chosen a conclusion and then ignored any information that we don't like which might change it. Which perfectly describes what you have been doing since you started. Like you just did now. Like you did with my response with to the above question.

You didn't actually take the time to read the parts where I explained why the question was stupid or to consider them. You stopped at "this question is stupid" and went no farther, instead blaming it on me rather than enterain the fact that maybe I was actually correct. I would also point out that as stupid as the question was I still took the time to give it proper consideration and a proper answer.

Same as here, you stopped the instant you heard something you didn't like as opposed to considering that there might be a valid point to what I said. I belittle you because you're dishonest and because your actions give me every reason to actively disrespect you. If you wish to be respected, act in a manner that deserves it. It's as simple as that.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #415 on: May 07, 2012, 03:06:26 PM »
Oh and I wonder.  The ones that freed the slaves?  Were they athiests?  An athiest would have to decide if it was subjectively moral first.
Why did the Americans have slaves in the first place? Why was it Africans who were the focus of these actions?......tell me your view before I go deeper.

Jst, the vast majority of slaveholders in the Americas between the 1500's and the 1800's were people who considered themselves to be good, upstanding Christians. In some areas, they were Catholics, in others, Protestants, but all were Christian with origins in Europe.[1]

We know this because one of their main justifications for slavery was that they were converting their slaves to the proper religion of Christianity, thereby saving the heathen Africans from Satanism, or whatever they thought Africans believed. (A number of West Africans were Muslims, but most practiced traditional animism...) You were not supposed to teach slaves to read and write, but you were supposed to force your foreign religion down their captive throats. And you could beat the crap out of the people and sell their children, as long as you taught them Christianity first. >:(

I find this a very important point. Although the slave owners did not find anything in the bible that said "though shalt not own other human beings", they were still uncomfortable enough about slavery to need religious justification. It is almost as if they knew that slavery was now wrong on some level, even if it was cool back in the bible times. And  funny how few Christians today think slavery is cool, even though it is in the bible....

There were no JW's in those days, so you can be happy that none of the American slaveowners were JW's. But that also means that there were no JW's fighting against slavery, either. (What was god waiting for?) The main abolitionist groups were Quakers and non-conformists-- and some probably were atheists. Since you are not a Quaker, you probably don't think they were real Christians. &) 

So, your point about the large percentage of African Americans today being Christians is true. But their ancestors learned Christianity from their slave masters, who would have had to be Christians. Unless you think that non-Christians can teach others to be Christians.  :?

And of course, as Alzael has stated, the Christianity enslaved black people developed was quite different from what they were being taught. The varying practices of vodun, santeria, rastafarianism, liberation theology and the black church tradition didn't just arise out of nowhere. They are the product of enslaved people understanding Christianity through their own experiences. Also, to put it mildly, slaves had no reason to take what slave owners told them about god as the absolute truth.

The slaves had different cultural backgrounds and interpreted the same bible stories and events very differently. For example, in the US, black people related directly to the OT stories about slavery and suffering. God telling Pharoah to "let my people go" was a literal message to slaveowning whites,  and the symbolic "Promised Land" of the bible represented escaping to freedom in Canada or the non-slave states.

But my main point here still stands. If the slave owners were not Christians, none of their slaves or the descendants of slaves could be Christians.
 1. There were a few who were Deists, like Thomas Jefferson, IIRC.
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #416 on: May 07, 2012, 03:37:53 PM »
Is Jesus recorded as ever having killed anyone?
No, but he says he is going to kill more people than have been killed in the last 10 wars.  (Rev:19:11 onwards to Re:19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.)

Revelation cannot be read literally. John tells us in the first chapter that he had a vision (I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.” Rev. 1:7-9)

Revelation is an example of Apocalyptic writing-- a genre that was much in fashion at the time as there was a general expectation among certain Jewish sects as well as the Christians that the end of human history was coming soon. But there is no easy way for any of us to understand it and many possible ways of reading it. Literally, is not the best way.
 
I've always understood it differently. You're right about the king representing Jesus, but I thought the ending meant something along the lines of "Those who deny me as Lord will face eternal damnation in the end." That would seem to go along with the rest of his message, like Matthew 10:33: "But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

You are right. But parables, particularly in the Old Testament, are often very hostile-- that is, they are meant to shock the audience. In this particular case, Jesus is in Jericho and the people have just seen a spectacular demonstration of repentance on the part of Zacchaeus. The parable touches on a lot of things-- first, it makes clear that not everyone will welcome the Messiah or want to serve him. Then it goes on to say that the king expects us to work and grow in his service. Of course, the placement of this parable is very interesting and hardly accidental--Jesus heads next for Jerusalem where those who are welcoming him as king will turn on him a week later.

Why?  I don't understand.  If they then repent of their sin, are they xians again?  What if a xian cheats on his wife?  Does that make him cease to be a xian?  And what if he repents?  Xian again?  Is it the act of sinning that makes them cease being xian?  If so, then don't most xians spend most of their time not being xians?
It is very possible to be a bad Christian. If repentance is genuine and reparation made, if possible, then one is again a good Christian. Sinning makes Christians human. Recognizing that and striving against sin is what makes Christians grow in holiness.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #417 on: May 07, 2012, 05:24:59 PM »
 

Why?  I don't understand.  If they then repent of their sin, are they xians again?  What if a xian cheats on his wife?  Does that make him cease to be a xian?  And what if he repents?  Xian again?  Is it the act of sinning that makes them cease being xian?  If so, then don't most xians spend most of their time not being xians?

Haha this is a good question I think.  I've been over this myself before.  The answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no.  I will describe, to the best, of my knowledge the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses.  First I want to point out there is a difference in committing a sin and practicing sin.  A Christian that commits a sin, depending on the severity of the sin, can easily be restored if he repents and does not continue doing the same sin. 

If he commits a gross sin, as in the case of adultery, then the question arises of was he really a christian to begin with?   Usually a serious sin like this reflects a lack of spirituality beforehand.  Such a christian can still be restored if he is repentant but it is not so easy.  First whatever caused the lack of spirituality must be addressed first and this may not be so easily addressed.  If it was an act out of just a moment of weakness then things may be different.  This is much like the process of a couple working through adultery.  The marriage still can succeed, but the guilty party must repent, but the marriage itself must be worked on since adultery often is a sign of an underlying problem in the marriage.  In the case of Jehovah's Witnesses some of the elders will be involved in this process.  If any human laws have been broken then the Christian must still deal with those consequences.

The case of a Christian that is practicing sin, meaning doing it over and over, the case is much more serious, but is still dependant upon the seriousness of the sin and the cause of it.  Does he keep giving in to a weakness or is it a case that he is grossly neglecting his spirituality or is it a case of actual rebellion?  If it is the latter then the Christian come into danger of actually committing the "unforgivable sin".

The Bible shows that any "true Christian" that reaches a certain maturity in his Christianity and then backslides will almost never be restored.  The Bible says it is almost impossible.  Why?  It is a simple case of accountability.  To those that much has been given, much is expected.  It's the same principle of "with power comes responsibility".  The more mature a Christian becomes the more God expects from them.  When things get to this point my understanding gets a bit blurry since I have never reached this point.  Often a Christian has committed the unforgiven sin and will not ever even desire to be restored.

The Christian then becomes an "apostate".  Apostates can become the worst of the worst often times actively working against the truth.  And since they are like Satan and they know they only have a short time left and no reward in the future they use that time to do as much collateral damage as they can.  These people become the guiltiest of the guilty because they have commit ed the unforgivable sin.

What is the unforgivable sin?  Blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  You can blaspheme Jehovah and blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven, but if if blaspheme the Holy Spirit then you will not be forgiven.  How do you do this?  The best definition I've been given is to "actively work against the evident working of the Holy Spirit."  I guess it means that if you recognize that God's Holy Spirit is doing something and you work against it then you commit the unforgivable sin.

I was told that if I have to ask, "what is the unforgivable sin", or "have I committed the unforgivable sin" then the answer is no.

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Jst, you are using the "no truescotsman" fallacy again.  Until you or someone else can show that they and they alone are the ones who have it "right" with their god, your claims are nonsense.

How can I show it unless someone is willing to listen?  Let's consider the evidence I offer before you make up your mind.  That's all I'm asking. 

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Since slavery was accepted without question by these "good Christian" apostles, does that mean that all good christians should accept slavery as okay?

Please show me the scripture to which you are referring.

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Really, then who is JC ruling over for that millenia after those "evil" people are killed"?

I don't believe in the rapture if that is what you are thinking.  First it will be those that God protected through armageddon.  Those that are left alive will form the core of a "new earth".  Satan and his influence will be completely removed.  With mankind's governments and out of the way, Jehovah's Kingdom will be set up as a "new heaven" to provide rulership for the new earth.  This is the beginning of the 1000 year reign.  I don't know how long it will take but the first order of buisiness will be cleaning up the mess and we will receive new laws from heaven. Heaven will be the ruling seat of God's Kingdom and Jesus is the King.  He has a limited number of "associate kings" described as the "elect" that will rule the seat of the government with him.  The Apostles will be among these.  They will serve as 12 "pillars".

At some point the resurrection of the dead will occur.  This is the time in which "all those in memorial tombs will come out".  This is assumed to be progressive and not all at once.  The last ones that died will be the first resurrected and the first ones that died will be the last ones resurrected.  "The first will be last and the last will be first".

I'm pretty sure by this time that Judgement Day has begun since the end of Armageddon.  But if not then it begins with the resurrection of the dead.  Those resurrected will the "brought up to date".  They will be given a chance to learn these new laws and obey them.  They will then be judged based on their actions.  During this time mankind will be healed and progressively brought to perfection by the end of the 1000 years.

By the time this is completed there will be no injustice in what has occured over the years.





 


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #418 on: May 07, 2012, 08:42:54 PM »
Jst I am superior to nothing... I may be different as you said,superiour NO.....as for the second question YES they were Christian. Your own book(the Bible) you are instructed by God to do as you wish with heathens,even smashing babies heads against rocks is OK if God has commanded.

 If you have read the Bible you know God has often commanded his followers to kill on occasion. How do you reconcile this,do you dismiss those sections of the Bible?

 The leaders of the Church,those in charge of Government and the flock themselves all had a hand in it,they ALL used their interpretations of the Bible as justification for the actions they took. Does this mean that you are the true Christian,and they are not,or its just that killing Indians is no longer the acceptable norm?
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #419 on: May 07, 2012, 08:58:20 PM »
Jst I am superior to nothing... I may be different as you said,superiour NO.....as for the second question YES they were Christian. Your own book(the Bible) you are instructed by God to do as you wish with heathens,even smashing babies heads against rocks is OK if God has commanded.
Oh dear. Oh dear. It says no such thing. Time to produce the evidence.

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If you have read the Bible you know God has often commanded his followers to kill on occasion. How do you reconcile this,do you dismiss those sections of the Bible?
One starts be reading the stories in context in order to see what lessons one should derive from them. Then one asks oneself, why they were part and parcel of the ancient Hebrews understanding of themselves and how God turned them into a nation.


Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #420 on: May 07, 2012, 09:04:36 PM »
What she said.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #421 on: May 07, 2012, 09:12:27 PM »
Jst I am superior to nothing... I may be different as you said,superiour NO.....as for the second question YES they were Christian. Your own book(the Bible) you are instructed by God to do as you wish with heathens,even smashing babies heads against rocks is OK if God has commanded.
Oh dear. Oh dear. It says no such thing. Time to produce the evidence.

PJ, he's referring to Psalm 137- but I'm sure you already knew that. And that they aren't actual instructions for mutilating babies (although Yahweh does enough baby mutilation on his own). I still think it's embarrassing Yahweh would include this little tale and lust for vengeance in a book that's called holy.

And to the rest of your reply regarding context, AND since we're on the topic of murdering babies- I posted this a couple days ago. It would simply tickle me to death if you want to talk about context with me and attempt to justify those. Let me know.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 09:14:58 PM by Zankuu »
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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #422 on: May 07, 2012, 09:22:28 PM »
I don't believe in the rapture if that is what you are thinking.  First it will be those that God protected through armageddon.  Those that are left alive will form the core of a "new earth".  Satan and his influence will be completely removed.  With mankind's governments and out of the way, Jehovah's Kingdom will be set up as a "new heaven" to provide rulership for the new earth.  This is the beginning of the 1000 year reign.

Thank God! I can't wait 'til things get back to the way they used to be, like God directly and unambiguously interacting with humans and all that magic and stuff. These same ol' laws of the universe are getting pretty boring.

Quote
I don't know how long it will take but the first order of buisiness will be cleaning up the mess and we will receive new laws from heaven.

It could happen quickly. Remember, this is the same dude who said, "Let there be light" . . . and there was light. But then again, we have to remember that this is the same asshole who toys around with his creation like a child with a magnifying glass toys around with anthills.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #423 on: May 07, 2012, 09:28:47 PM »
One starts be reading the stories in context in order to see what lessons one should derive from them.


Lesson Number One:


Approach ancient Middle-Eastern Mythology as if it is ancient Middle-Eastern mythology, not reality.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #424 on: May 07, 2012, 09:41:08 PM »
Yes, indeed I did know. I was hoping that by running off to get the exact cite, 12 would see that it is David who is expressing these blood thirsty thoughts. What I shake my head over is the ongoing assumption so many atheists have that the Bible is somehow a magic book. Oh yeah, even though you don't think God dictated it, somehow, you don't still don't get that it isn't a user's manual such as comes with my new rototiller. It isn't an instruction manual. It records the Jews understanding of themselves and their covenants with God. As people living in a very real and remarkably brutal world, their stories are going to reflect that. We all see God through the lens of our cultural experiences. That means we see in a glass darkly, as Paul put it.

What is it you wanted me to respond to, re murdering babies?

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #425 on: May 07, 2012, 09:52:37 PM »
It isn't an instruction manual. It records the Jews understanding of themselves and their covenants with God. As people living in a very real and remarkably brutal world, their stories are going to reflect that.

What is it you wanted me to respond to, re murdering babies?

We're both in full agreement with that then. What I don't understand is how you can say the Torah is the Jews understanding of themselves and their god, but at the same time think that this barbaric collection of books recorded by brutish men is still somehow divine. Why? Because the middle eastern men that wrote it said it was? I don't understand how you can justify the savagery like this bronze age deity ripping up the wombs of women on the basis that they're from the wrong tribe. It honestly boggles my mind, PJ.

Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #426 on: May 07, 2012, 10:02:48 PM »
The book is not divine! It reveals how God raised a rag-tag band from its obscure origins and molded it into a nation. We (Catholics) value the Old Testament for its many insights into how God has worked in human history but recognize that it is, in the words of the Catechism, imperfect and partial.

What I think is quite amusing is that most historians and Old Testament scholars discount a great deal of the early history-- they seem to think it is a bunch of late iron age bragging. One of my favorite Jewish scholars (Amy-Jill Levine) says that many of the tales are told in extremely crude language-- suitable to warriors telling stories around the campfire. Whatever the case may be, it is a mistake to approach an ancient work of literature, written in a culture we cannot imagine, in a language we don't understand, as though it were the latest on the NYT bestseller list. It just isn't.

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #427 on: May 07, 2012, 10:07:02 PM »
The book is not divine! It reveals how God raised a rag-tag band from its obscure origins and molded it into a nation. We (Catholics) value the Old Testament for its many insights into how God has worked in human history but recognize that it is, in the words of the Catechism, imperfect and partial.

However many of your fellows would disagree with you. Such as Jst or MM. What makes your version true? I mean in terms of evidence, not assertions.
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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #428 on: May 07, 2012, 10:07:45 PM »
Quote
The leaders of the Church,those in charge of Government and the flock themselves all had a hand in it,they ALL used their interpretations of the Bible as justification for the actions they took. Does this mean that you are the true Christian,and they are not,or its just that killing Indians is no longer the acceptable norm?

Let me describe what I have been taught, and I believe to be in line with scripture.  And I pray I am not going cause a problem here with what I am about to say.

The apostles and Jesus' other disciples formed the first christian congregations.  The apostles operated as a governing body.  According to scripture, soon after Jesus' death incorrect teachings began to creep into the congregations.  Different sects began to spring up.  Many times were the congregations chastened for allowing such divisions to occur.  The apostle exclaimed, "Is Christ divided?"  "How can one say 'I follow this person' and another of you say 'I follow this other person'.  While they were still alive the apostles acted as a force to keep the congregation pure.  Sectarianism was seen as a corrupting influence within the congregation.  The truth became polluted by this and some sects even adopted beliefs and rituals from other religions of the time and made this part of their worship.

The bible prophesied that a "Great Apostasy" (falling away from the truth) would occur.  This Greate Apostasy began with the death of the last apostle as secterianism and other belief systems continued to infiltrate the congregation.  Some sects grew strong while others did not. By the time the Catholic church began to form, the Great Apostasy was well under way.  This Great Apostasy continued from there, spanning the Dark Ages and beyond as things went from bad to worse.  Great atrocities were commited by these sects in the name of God.  I do not wish to recount the history of the Catholic and it's secterian religion, but suffice it to say it has been a bloody, and immoral one. 

By the time the protestant reformation occured the Great Apostasy was in full power.  The protestants tried to "reform" christianity.  But as history shows, the protestants did not purify a congregation, but only added an entire new set of secterians.  While protestants rejected certain teaching of the Catholic Church they did no completely purify their beliefs, and they still held on to beliefs that had been adopted from other religions.  Examples include the belief in a trinity of Gods, belief in a burning hell, celebration of pagan holidays, and more.  And the history of protestantism has been no less bloodly and immoral.

Looking back in time it can be seen that the Great Apostasy was a very damaging force.  However during this time the truth was not entirely suppressed.  "True Christians" still existed during this time.  But they were as a sprinkling of salt over the earth.  In other words they were far and few between and to an extent this is still true.

As the "last days" approach, the Bible shows that the Great Apostasy would begin to draw to a close.  During this time the Bible says there would be a "harvest" of mankind.  Jesus would begin gathering these "True Christians" together from the four corners of the earth to brings them together.  It is as if the "salt of the earth" is being gathered.  And the Bible shows they will gather into one congregation again.  It was prophesied at this time that these ones would "beat their swords into plowshares...........and neither will they learn war anymore."  These gathered Christians would also then begin a zealous preaching campaign, similar to how Noah preached before the flood in order to gather all of God's people and similar to the preaching campaign given by the apostles before the destruction of Jerusalem.

This zealous preaching campaign is carried on door to door to this very day.  Once again they are preaching, "repent for the Kindom of the heavens has drawn near."

The Bible pictures this global empire of secterianism and false religion as a harlot named "Babylon the Great".  This religious harlot as accurately described, as "the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.  She will soon be destoryed by the beast she has been riding.   

Once this begins to take place the call goes out, "She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

But at the same time another call also goes out.  And today this call is being sounded globally.  "“Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.


 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 10:14:27 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #429 on: May 07, 2012, 10:14:15 PM »
The book is not divine! It reveals how God raised a rag-tag band from its obscure origins and molded it into a nation. We (Catholics) value the Old Testament for its many insights into how God has worked in human history but recognize that it is, in the words of the Catechism, imperfect and partial.

If it isn't divine then what the hell separates it from any other fertile crescent deity? What about the rag-tag Persians and Mithra? etc. etc. Surely you see why I'm so skeptical.

What I think is quite amusing is that most historians and Old Testament scholars discount a great deal of the early history-- they seem to think it is a bunch of late iron age bragging.

Interesting. Toss a few links and sources my way?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #430 on: May 07, 2012, 10:16:23 PM »
And indeed Christendom, and false religion, are beggnning to fall from atop their high position.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #431 on: May 07, 2012, 10:19:14 PM »
However many of your fellows would disagree with you. Such as Jst or MM. What makes your version true? I mean in terms of evidence, not assertions.
Let me guess, no matter what anyone says on any subject, the only response you have is "evidence! I must have evidence!"

I don't have a version. I have a literary person's appreciation for literature and an ability to read intelligently. That means that I have the background to understand some of the cultural and historical milieu in which these stories took place. When I come up against something I don't understand, I have a number of books on my own shelf about the ancient Near East that I can and do consult. If they don't do the trick, I have 24/7 access to the online full text databases that my university makes available which gives me access to thousands of peer reviewed journal literature.

I have the training in literature, particularly ancient literature, to recognize literary devices, rhetorical strategies and the genres in which the Old Testament was written. My approach is scholarly. It doesn't matter a hoot to me that others read it differently. What do I care if one person believes in 6 literal days of creation while I do not? How does that harm me or in any way, shape or form detract from the message of Jesus Christ? We are not going to be graded, finally, on our intellectual understanding of the Old Testament.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #432 on: May 07, 2012, 10:19:46 PM »
Quote
The leaders of the Church,those in charge of Government and the flock themselves all had a hand in it,they ALL used their interpretations of the Bible as justification for the actions they took. Does this mean that you are the true Christian,and they are not,or its just that killing Indians is no longer the acceptable norm?

Let me describe what I have been taught, and I believe to be in line with scripture.  And I pray I am not going cause a problem here with what I am about to say.

The apostles and Jesus' other disciples formed the first christian congregations.  The apostles operated as a governing body.  According to scripture, soon after Jesus' death incorrect teachings began to creep into the congregations.  Different sects began to spring up.  Many times were the congregations chastened for allowing such divisions to occur.  The apostle exclaimed, "Is Christ divided?"  "How can one say 'I follow this person' and another of you say 'I follow this other person'.  While they were still alive the apostles acted as a force to keep the congregation pure.  Sectarianism was seen as a corrupting influence within the congregation.  The truth became polluted by this and some sects even adopted beliefs and rituals from other religions of the time and made this part of their worship.

The bible prophesied that a "Great Apostasy" (falling away from the truth) would occur.  This Greate Apostasy began with the death of the last apostle as secterianism and other belief systems continued to infiltrate the congregation.  Some sects grew strong while others did not. By the time the Catholic church began to form, the Great Apostasy was well under way.  This Great Apostasy continued from there, spanning the Dark Ages and beyond as things went from bad to worse.  Great atrocities were commited by these sects in the name of God.  I do not wish to recount the history of the Catholic and it's secterian religion, but suffice it to say it has been a bloody, and immoral one. 

By the time the protestant reformation occured the Great Apostasy was in full power.  The protestants tried to "reform" christianity.  But as history shows, the protestants did not purify a congregation, but only added an entire new set of secterians.  While protestants rejected certain teaching of the Catholic Church they did no completely purify their beliefs, and they still held on to beliefs that had been adopted from other religions.  Examples include the belief in a trinity of Gods, belief in a burning hell, celebration of pagan holidays, and more.  And the history of protestantism has been no less bloodly and immoral.

Looking back in time it can be seen that the Great Apostasy was a very damaging force.  However during this time the truth was not entirely suppressed.  "True Christians" still existed during this time.  But they were as a sprinkling of salt over the earth.  In other words they were far and few between and to an extent this is still true.

As the "last days" approach, the Bible shows that the Great Apostasy would begin to draw to a close.  During this time the Bible says there would be a "harvest" of mankind.  Jesus would begin gathering these "True Christians" together from the four corners of the earth to brings them together.  It is as if the "salt of the earth" is being gathered.  And the Bible shows they will gather into one congregation again.  It was prophesied at this time that these ones would "beat their swords into plowshares...........and neither will they learn war anymore."  These gathered Christians would also then begin a zealous preaching campaign, similar to how Noah preached before the flood in order to gather all of God's people and similar to the preaching campaign given by the apostles before the destruction of Jerusalem.

This zealous preaching campaign is carried on door to door to this very day.  Once again they are preaching, "repent for the Kindom of the heavens has drawn near."

The Bible pictures this global empire of secterianism and false religion as a harlot named "Babylon the Great".  This religious harlot as accurately described, as "the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.” And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.  She will soon be destoryed by the beast she has been riding.   

Once this begins to take place the call goes out, "She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen, and she has become a dwelling place of demons and a lurking place of every unclean exhalation and a lurking place of every unclean and hated bird! For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen [victim], and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.”

But at the same time another call also goes out.  And today this call is being sounded globally.  "“Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. Render to her even as she herself rendered, and do to her twice as much, yes, twice the number of the things she did; in the cup in which she put a mixture put twice as much of the mixture for her. To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For in her heart she keeps saying, ‘I sit a queen, and I am no widow, and I shall never see mourning.’ That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

Translation, everyone else is wrong, because we said so. We are obviously right, because we said so. God will punish all those who have it wrong, because we said so. So repent and prepare for the day gods comes come back, again because we said so.  No we have no way to prove it. But we still have the truth, really we do. Hallelujah!

And indeed Christendom, and false religion, are beggnning to fall from atop their high position.

Again, because you say so.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 10:22:09 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #433 on: May 07, 2012, 10:21:32 PM »
Let me guess, no matter what anyone says on any subject, the only response you have is "evidence! I must have evidence!"

I don't have a version. I have a literary person's appreciation for literature and an ability to read intelligently. That means that I have the background to understand some of the cultural and historical milieu in which these stories took place. When I come up against something I don't understand, I have a number of books on my own shelf about the ancient Near East that I can and do consult. If they don't do the trick, I have 24/7 access to the online full text databases that my university makes available which gives me access to thousands of peer reviewed journal literature.

I have the training in literature, particularly ancient literature, to recognize literary devices, rhetorical strategies and the genres in which the Old Testament was written. My approach is scholarly. It doesn't matter a hoot to me that others read it differently. What do I care if one person believes in 6 literal days of creation while I do not? How does that harm me or in any way, shape or form detract from the message of Jesus Christ? We are not going to be graded, finally, on our intellectual understanding of the Old Testament.

So no evidence at all then. Just assertions and fallacious appeals that what you say is true. Well that's certainly a bold defiance of established trends.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Maggie the Opinionated

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #434 on: May 07, 2012, 10:22:21 PM »
The book is not divine! It reveals how God raised a rag-tag band from its obscure origins and molded it into a nation. We (Catholics) value the Old Testament for its many insights into how God has worked in human history but recognize that it is, in the words of the Catechism, imperfect and partial.

If it isn't divine then what the hell separates it from any other fertile crescent deity? What about the rag-tag Persians and Mithra? etc. etc. Surely you see why I'm so skeptical.
You are forgetting Jesus Christ. We start with him. Not with Genesis. If he is who he says he is, then he is the one who validates the Old Testament.

As for links to those sceptical about the history recorded in the OT, what do you have access to? Are you attached to a university with online journal databases?