Moral laws of the Bible

[Jstwebbrowsing]

No I read the Bible.  Then I concluded it was true.  Then I studied it.  I interpreted things completely different after starting with the assumption God is love.  I came to know the personality of Jehovah.  I could not help but love him.  Now I'm stuck with the problem if I have enough wisdom to do anything about it.

[Omen]

No I read the Bible.  Then I concluded it was true.  Then I studied it.  I interpreted things completely different after starting with the assumption God is love.

But we are not mentally ill.

So why would we ever do that?  Why would anyone of sane mind do that?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

I don't know.  Maybe I should join a support group.  Wait!  I know of one and it has millions of members!

[Jstwebbrowsing]

In 236 lands even!

[Omen]

I don't know.  Maybe I should join a support group.  Wait!  I know of one and it has millions of members!

Why do your religious beliefs motivate you to lie about science ( evolution )?

[kaziglu bey]

I don't know.  Maybe I should join a support group.  Wait!  I know of one and it has millions of members!

Yes, except unlike most support groups, yours exists to reinforce the problem, not eliminate it.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

I don't know.  Maybe I should join a support group.  Wait!  I know of one and it has millions of members!

Why do your religious beliefs motivate you to lie about science ( evolution )?

Why does your lack of religious beliefs motivate you to be mean and nasty?  Oh wait.  That answer too is in the Bible.

Yes, except unlike most support groups, yours exists to reinforce the problem, not eliminate it.

I know and they probably make terrible neighbors.

[Omen]

Why does you lack of religious beliefs motivate you to be mean and nasty?  Oh wait.  That answer too is in the Bible.

Asking you questions and holding you accountable isn't being mean and nasty. 

Why are you so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by simple inquiry?

Oh wait.  That answer too is in the Bible.

Of course, a cult would demean those who do not believe in order to reinforce those that do believe.  We are enemies, antichrist, liars, by the fact that we do not believe in your idiotic religious fantasies.

Because that'll convince people.

[Omen]

Jst, were you home schooled?

[kaziglu bey]

Jst, were you home schooled?

I think indoctrination is the proper term here.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Asking you questions and holding you accountable isn't being mean and nasty. 

Why are you so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by simple inquiry?

Simple inquiry is not question after question after question.  I mean I could answer some questions about evolution but at some point I'd have to refer you to someone more knowledgagble than I.  In this case, more sooner than later.

Of course, a cult would demean those who do not believe in order to reinforce those that do believe.  We are enemies, antichrist, liars, by the fact that we do not believe in your idiotic religious fantasies.

I know.  I am more closely following the example of christendom than that of Christ huh?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Jst, were you home schooled?

No.  In fact my curiousity with Jehovah's Witnesses almost alienated me from my entire family.  They are protestants.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

In fact, if I were to become one I would probably be disowned by most of my family.

[Omen]

Jst, were you home schooled?

I think indoctrination is the proper term here.

The local Jehovah witness community is mostly home schooled and they encourage children not to further their education in college.   Most of the kids are poorly educated, one in particular ( 12 ) can't even read, and their education consists of creationist nonsense as well as other kinds of watchtower crap.  The irony is that most of the 'elders' actually have college degrees as well as jobs to support themselves, while at the same time they tell the young men in the community not go to college.

Education is a big problem for JWs.

[Omen]

Asking you questions and holding you accountable isn't being mean and nasty. 

Why are you so insecure about your religious beliefs as to be threatened by simple inquiry?

Simple inquiry is not question after question after question.  I mean I could answer some questions about evolution but at some point I'd have to refer you to someone more knowledgagble than I.  In this case, more sooner than later.

You couldn't reasonably bring a single objection, hence the questions.  You continued to make assertions about a subject you clearly had not even a basic grasp upon, which lead to more questions.

Of course, a cult would demean those who do not believe in order to reinforce those that do believe.  We are enemies, antichrist, liars, by the fact that we do not believe in your idiotic religious fantasies.

I know.  I am more closely following the example of christendom than that of Christ huh?

I completely agree.. Jesus was a psychotic religious sycophant who attacked and labeled people who were not like himself the 'enemy', suggesting that the value of their lives in totality were determined by believing that he was magic.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Most of the kids are poorly educated, one in particular ( 12 ) can't even read

This should not be normal.  Jehovah's Witnesses are expected to read.....a lot.  My wife was raised as one until she was about 15 and her father was disfellowshipped. 

But yes I am sure they do what you call indoctrination, but the Bible itself teaches parents to teach their children as soon as they are able to learn.  They are simply doing what the Bible says.  That is also why they do door to door.

They discourage children from attending college to the extent that spiritual education must come first.  If you can balance the two then good.  If not, your first priority should be your spirituality.  The individual himself if left to make the decision.

[jeremy0]

Jst - I am no longer laughing at this.  You need to ditch your JW friends fast and get therapy.  Sometimes religion can have damaging affects.  You have been related multiple times with a mental illness.  As someone who has thorough knowledge of psychology, I would suggest you find a psychologist.  They can safely determine a course of action.  My course of action would simply be therapy. 

Your statements on here describe delusional problems and issues relating to religion that can be dealt with by a psychologist.  One would likely start by stating that religion is no more than a belief system that a group of individuals agree they should believe in, while spirituality is something you find by yourself that gives you a sense of peace and belonging - many of us relate to nature - trees, flowers, shrubs, water, birds, sea life, etc. 

I need you to listen to me here, for your own benefit.  I would rather you ditch your JW friends and go back to being Protestant, if that is what your family would want you to do.  This particular group of JWs are destroying your mental state.  I would like you to go see a psychologist before this turns into something worse for you.

Again, I'm no longer looking at this lightly as a form of amusement - this is not funny stuff anymore...

[Jstwebbrowsing]

I am mentally ill because I believe the Bible?

[jeremy0]

No, you display an unstable state of mind according to what you have been saying in this thread.  I'm just trying to help.  Before, I was arguing my case against yours, now I'm simply being a good person...

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Please explain.

[Add Homonym]

I think probably someone needs to answer the original question, without bringing the OT into it. (I'm just guessing nobody has, because I know how threads like this go.)

The primary laws of Jesus are :

Love your enemy; don't bother with your friends
Don't get divorced; don't even look at another woman
Honour your parents
Pray in secret
Give in secret
Resist not evil
Work your wonders in the most corrupt areas
Love God with all your heart
(We are uncertain about slave and homosexuality laws. Possibly the love idea was supposed to go viral and undermine all Hebrew laws.)
Be incredibly poor, and don't trust wealth; give it all away
Don't argue with your brother
Avoid persecution by agreeing with your persecutor
Be perfect
Judge not
Don't wash your hands
Identify corrupt trees from their fruit

When we look through that list, it's difficult not to see some as hyperbole, but there is also an idealist truth to them, that Jesus implies strongly that you have to follow. He is, after all, the guy who is saving you from your sins by giving you the proof that God was real. Since you know God is real, you have no excuse but to follow his laws perfectly. Your demonstration of faith, is to show that you believe Jesus was real, by doing exactly what he said.

However, looking at the laws from a modern perspective, where we have tried to live by the laws, and found that some of them are intellectual ideals, similar to communism, that don't really work. Nobody has really done the original research that you can pacify an enemy by loving them. Punching them in the face seems to work so much better. Evil dictators need to be stood up to, not ignored, apparently.

Giving in secret also seems to be a problem, because nobody will know you are doing it, so a culture of not doing it will rise.

Divorce laws are a problem, because people seldom can stand living with the same person, without fcukin around. There appears to be no decent reason why you should not fcuk around, either.

His idea that we should not bother with friends, and instead delve into the most corrupt areas, also seems not to "work". The most corrupt areas always seem to remain corrupt and hopeless. Bush regenerators have come up with the idea that you start from the least corrupt areas, and one criminologist has suggested the "Broken windows theory", where you start by cleaning up trivial offences first. It stands to reason that USA is going to be no help to 3rd world countries if its own country is full up with bitterness moral bankruptcy. The way we seem to help people now, is by using laws of capitalism, because we can find no other way.

Being incredibly poor does not work in capitalism, unless some church supports you to do your work. As such, not all people can be Christian. Most have to keep the economy going. The ideas of Christianity were apocalyptic; with no thought for the future - yet here we are. (Jehovah's Witnesses are still waiting for the end which is not coming.)

Judging not seems not to generally work, except as a way to gain smelly friends.

So, the laws of Christ are an interesting ideal that nobody believes actually work. Nobody has faith in him, any more than they'd have faith in a Marxist philosopher. But we do agree with the general proposition that we should try to be nice to people, until they ask for money.The law of capitalism is inviolable, apparently.

[Add Homonym]

They discourage children from attending college to the extent that spiritual education must come first.  If you can balance the two then good.

I had the impression that JW's discouraged college because they are always convinced that the end is nigh, so there's no point. This type of pessimism is at the root of quite a lot of people, and it ruins their lives.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Just to clarify the above post.

Matthew 5-7
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%205-7&version=NIV

In the future, please do not post long tracts of bible.  Use a reference as above.  Thanks.

~Screwtape
 

[jeremy0]

No I read the Bible.  Then I concluded it was true.  Then I studied it.  I interpreted things completely different after starting with the assumption God is love.  I came to know the personality of Jehovah.  I could not help but love him.  Now I'm stuck with the problem if I have enough wisdom to do anything about it.

To clarify about interpretation, you must allow the Bible to interpret itself to derive at correct meanings.  If something is unclear then look elsewhere in the Bible on similar topics and the meaning will become more clear.

And example of letting the Bible interpret itself:  What is the Beast of Revelation 13?  Compare that beast with the two beasts described in Daniel ??.  You will see that the bible interprets the symbolism to show that those beasts are governments.  The same interpetation applies to the beasts in Revelation 13.  Yes I'm suggesting that the beast with seven heads is governmental

So this picture in Revelation becomes adultrous religion riding upon the back of government?  Do we see this happening today?  I think we do.  The result has been a lot of needless bloodshed.  But eventually what does the beast to do the harlot?  Find out for yourself.

As I've said before I have not arrived at all of these interpretations on my own.  These are the teachings of Jehovah's Witness as best as I understand them.  I am certain their cumulitive knowledge is great.

In particular, your statements about the government being the 'beast of revelation and we're seeing that today' I would highlight.  It's ok to believe in a religion, even though we consider such nonsense delusional.  It's not ok to correlate biblical references to groups of people - akin to Christians in Kansas holding up signs in front of rallies saying 'God hates you'.  These are signs of religious instability.  You need to seek therapy to shed some light on what religion is.  Once you said the governments are in relation to Revelation, this is a clear signal to me that you need to seek out therapy.  If you listen to what I've told you, you may find yourself in an entirely forgiving life.  If you don't, and you continue down this path that these particular JWs are taking you, you may wind up with a mental illness that instead of therapy I would have to give you medications to treat...

The only reason I say this is because of the quoted statements by you, particularly governments being 'the beast'.  That's not funny, it's damaging to both your own well-being and the well-being of others.  As I cannot diagnose you here, I will simply re-iterate - just see a psychologist.  That should be all that is needed.  I'm not going to dive into being a psychologist with you here..

[jeremy0]

Additionally, you are highlighting YOU as a reference to these people, alluding that they are wicked, etc.  That is also not amusing.  I am growing impatient with you, but will try to remain by your side.  I don't find religion getting people into such a disasterous emotional state amusing - this is a duty for me, not something I enjoy...

[Jstwebbrowsing]

deleted

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Well it's not like I'm going to go all suicide bomber on people.  Christians are expected to be at peace with others.

Revelation goes on, after showing that governement, viewed as a whole, will completely destroy false religion, christendom included, and will then eventually go on to it's own self-destruction.  This will be in the time the Bible terms the "Great Tribulation".  These are the "stars" than fall from heaven, those that shine as illuminaries on the earth will fall from their high positions.  Basically all hell is going to break loose.  The tribulation is to be worse than any that has been on the earth.  In Bible terms this was the flood of Noah.  But this is all man's doing and I don't mean at the hands of christians.  The tribulation wil become so bad that "no flesh would survive" lest the days be cut short. 

This will be the ultimate answer to man's claim he can rule himself.  Jehovah then intervenes to protect his servants, more specifically the "elect".  Armageddon begins with Jesus destroying the "wicked".  Armageddon is not a man vs man war, it is a man vs God war.  Angels will participate as will the "elect" that are in heaven.  God's servants on earth simply are to watch and be amazed.  They will benefit from divine protection the same as Noah and his family were protected from the flood.  No.  No rapture.

So no, I'm not going to go join some military group and go nuts.  In fact, I must remain completely neutral in warfare and strive to love my neighbor.  Not only am I expected to not do them harm I am expected to go out of my way to help others.

At least this is my belief system anyway.  A christian's job at present is to follow Jesus' example and preach the Good News of the Kingdom.

[ParkingPlaces]

I am wondering if the free psychological counseling we are offering Jst is appropriate. If he were the only religious person in the world, we might have a case. But there are many, and even though I disagree wholeheartedly with their religious views, I have known many JW's, and most of them functioned quite well in society. They could drive cars, feed themselves, pay their bills and laugh at my jokes.

And while I'm sure the community is proud that Jst has tied kymer (I believe) for filling the karma board with six simultaneous negative votes, I don't think the Guiness people are really all that interested.

I assume I will get zapped as well for writing this, but watching people get kicked this many times gets old after awhile.  If you want him to go away, just say so. But also be prepared for him to stay if he chooses to.

P.S. The record for negative karmas is 60, held by jtp56. Who is more likely to break that record tonight. Jst or me?

[jeremy0]

Well it's not like I'm going to go all suicide bomber on people.  Christians are expected to be at peace with others.

Then ignore me and we'll continue with debate..

Revelation goes on, after showing that governement, viewed as a whole, will completely destroy false religion, christendom included, will eventually go on to it's own self-destruction.  This will be in the time the Bible terms the "Great Tribulation".  These are the "stars" than fall from heaven, those that shine as illuminaries on the earth will fall from their high positions.  Basically all hell is going to break loose.  The tribulation is to be worse than any that has been on the earth.  In Bible terms this was the flood of Noah.  But this is all man's doing and I don't mean at the hands of christians.  The tribulation wil become so bad that "no flesh would survive" lest the days be cut short. 

This is what I call 'inevitability'.  It was put into the bible because people at the time knew the only way to ensure the bible's long-lasting success is to say it's all gloom-and-doom when nobody any longer believes in it...

This will be the ultimate answer to man's claim he can rule himself.  Jehovah then intervenes to protect his servants, more specifically the "elect".  Armageddon begins with Jesus destroying the "wicked".  Armageddon is not a man vs man war, it is a man vs God war.  Angels will participate as will the "elect" that are in heaven.  God's servants on earth simply are to watch and be amazed.  They will benefit from divine protection the same as Noah and his family were protected from the flood.  No.  No rapture.

I do not believe in an 'elect'.  I believe all things are equal - you, me, the rest of everyone on earth, the fish, the bird, the ground we walk on, the sun that gives us light and heat.  I would treat it all as equally important.  If I were to take part in this 'Armageddon', you would want to be on my side.  In fact, you would need to agree with me if you want to defeat God's enemies..  if I were to take my old religious stance, which I would if suddenly this became reality..

So no, I'm not going to go join some military group and go nuts.  In fact, I must remain completely neutral in warfare and strive to love my neighbor.  Not only am I expected to not do them harm I am expected to go out of my way to help others.

As long as that is perfectly clear to you, I'm ok with it.  I'm getting out of this discussion now.  good luck, Jst.