Author Topic: Moral laws of the Bible  (Read 16305 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2012, 06:59:59 PM »
Unless "your people" means "everyone who isn't a JW", you're wrong.

No, I mean "your people" as those that would rather be ruled by man than God.  Human rulers started those wars.  And also the "other people" that say they were ruled by God but were not.  I mean catholics, and protestants were literally on opposited sides of the bettlefield praying to the same God for help.  They participated in those wars too.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »
No, I mean "your people" as those that would rather be ruled by man than God.  Human rulers started those wars.  And also the "other people" that say they were ruled by God but were not.

This is incredibly disingenuous, they began those wars based off of interpretations of their religious texts.  Rationalizations and interpretations made no differently than you claim yours.  Which, the bible being contradictory, vague, and xenophobic, really only contributed to this.

Shame an omniscient and omnipotent being couldn't have done better than the bible.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2012, 07:07:12 PM »
No, nowhere does the Bible teach their actions were okay.  I will tell you a little secret.  If you read OT prophecy and substitue "Unfaithful Israel" with "Unfaithful Christendom" you will see those prophesies in a whole new light and see the Bible has the picture painted perfectly.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2012, 07:07:34 PM »
So is your god so stupid or incapable that it couldn't have devised a better situation?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #91 on: April 30, 2012, 07:10:39 PM »
Well I think he has devised it in the best possible way.  He is letting people learn the hard way.  As a parent you learn that sometimes experience can be the only teacher.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #92 on: April 30, 2012, 07:11:38 PM »
I will tell you a little secret.  If you read OT prophecy and substitue "Unfaithful Israel" with "Unfaithful Christendom" you will see those prophesies in a whole new light and see the Bible has the picture painted perfectly.

I'll tell you another secret. If you read the claims from YEC's that the Earth is 6000 years old and replace "6000" with "4.5 billion", you'll see that they're actually telling the truth.

I'm trying to make a subtle point here. I hope it doesn't go over your head.[1]
 1. I am being quite serious here, and I don't mean to make it sound as if I'm saying you're unintelligent.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #93 on: April 30, 2012, 07:12:28 PM »
Well I think he has devised it in the best possible way.  He is letting people learn the hard way.  As a parent you learn that sometimes experience can be the only teacher.

Ignoring the glaring flaw in your argument, why is an omnipotent deity limited by what's possible?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #94 on: April 30, 2012, 07:15:38 PM »
No, nowhere does the Bible teach their actions were okay.

The bible repeatedly reinforces the idea that the only value of human life is determined by whether or not someone believes vs not believing.  Every single reference to unbelief is done so in a manner to hatefully dehumanize those who do not believe with all kinds of pejoratives.

From this it is a very short leap to justifying violence.  Not to mention where the bible has brazenly antisemitic condemnations and curses.

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I will tell you a little secret.  If you read OT prophecy ..

If I read OT prophecy, which I have, I will only discover that it has nothing to do with christianity or jesus.  In fact, Christians throw away over half Judaic Messianic Prophecy and insert prophetic claims that never originally or traditionally had anything to do with being prophetic.  Also, christian claims of prophecy often rely upon mistranlsations.

In both Jewish Eschatology and Judaic Messianic Prophecy, there is no separation between the arrival of the messiah and what the messiah comes to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_eschatology

The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10)
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)


What Jesus does not do ( which is the vast majority of this ) is swept under the all encompassing rug of the 'second coming'.  Of course, no such portion of Judaic prophecy exists, it is assumed for the purpose of rationalizing away the fact that Jesus doesn't actually confirm anything claimed of the messiah itself.

Other kinds of theological errors persist between Christianity and Judaism.  Christianity places far more influence on the garden of eden than Judaism, Christianity also creates original sin as well as the trinity, both out of thin air. 
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #95 on: April 30, 2012, 07:18:52 PM »
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I'll tell you another secret. If you read the claims from YEC's that the Earth is 6000 years old and replace "6000" with "4.5 billion", you'll see that they're actually telling the truth.

I'm trying to make a subtle point here. I hope it doesn't go over your head.

The Bible does not contradict this.  It shows life to be about that old.

Quote
Ignoring the glaring flaw in your argument, why is an omnipotent deity limited by what's possible?

He would be limited to doing that which is perfect.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #96 on: April 30, 2012, 07:20:19 PM »
Well I think he has devised it in the best possible way.

I am a finite human being that can imagine a better way than your god.

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  He is letting people learn the hard way.

An omnipotent and omniscient being can have the end goal instantly, anything in between is frankly unnecessary.  Which means that whatever we 'learn' is ultimately pointless.

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As a parent you learn that sometimes experience can be the only teacher.

False analogy, a parent doesn't allow a child to brutally harm itself or to go through unnecessary suffering without be condemned a sociopath or a physical abuser.  The parent analogy its one of the easiest ways to demonstrate how hideously unethical your god myth is.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #97 on: April 30, 2012, 07:23:48 PM »
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Ignoring the glaring flaw in your argument, why is an omnipotent deity limited by what's possible?

He would be limited to doing that which is perfect.

Perfect is an inserted pleaded qualification that causes 2 problems:

1. We can imagine a more perfect process in every single way possible, in quality, in quantity, etc.  We are finite beings, we do not possess omnipotence and omniscience, yet can suppose a situation more perfect than the one claimed.

2. Perfect really has no meaning, its use is tautological, much like you're claim of god being 'good' is tautological.  God is good whether he's killing babies or not killing babies ( hence good is meaningless ).  God is perfect whether he's created a football or creating a machine to make footballs. ( hence perfect is meaningless )

The problem is that we are presenting you a type of argument called an reductio ad absurdum, its a type of argument that takes a conclusion to its most absurd end to show how illogical it is.  It is then logically negated.

Your answer isn't to acknowledge or rebut the fallacy, your answer is to use more fallacies to excuse yourself from taking responsibility.  It doesn't actually answer the fallacy being pointed out by us.. so we just point out that everything is still true.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #98 on: April 30, 2012, 07:25:40 PM »
The bible repeatedly reinforces the idea that the only value of human life is determined by whether or not someone believes vs not believing.  Every single reference to unbelief is done so in a manner to hatefully dehumanize those who do not believe with all kinds of pejoratives.

The "believing" come down to you believe that God would make a better ruler.

If it's weren't for those not believing then we would have never gotten into this mess.  So technically, all the blood that has been shed over the history of mankind is on their hands.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #99 on: April 30, 2012, 07:28:01 PM »
1. We can imagine a more perfect process in every single way possible, in quality, in quantity, etc.  We are finite beings, we do not possess omnipotence and omniscience, yet can suppose a situation more perfect than the one claimed.

How can something imperfect decide what it perfect?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2012, 07:29:27 PM »
The bible repeatedly reinforces the idea that the only value of human life is determined by whether or not someone believes vs not believing.  Every single reference to unbelief is done so in a manner to hatefully dehumanize those who do not believe with all kinds of pejoratives.

The "believing" come down to you believe that God would make a better ruler.

If it's weren't for those not believing then we would have never gotten into this mess.  So technically, all the blood that has been shed over the history of mankind is on their hands.

You're not answering anything again, you're just babbling almost to incoherence.

If the bible were not obscure, contradictory, or hateful.. people would not be so confused as to interpret it for violence.

You don't possess the 'perfect' translation now anymore than they, their rationalizations are intellectually no different from your own.  Hence, this is the symptom of theological systems of belief that do not reasonably promote any reason based or logically coherent epistemology.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »
1. We can imagine a more perfect process in every single way possible, in quality, in quantity, etc.  We are finite beings, we do not possess omnipotence and omniscience, yet can suppose a situation more perfect than the one claimed.

How can something imperfect decide what it perfect?

Quite easy.

I'm omnipotent and omniscient, I want a basketball. ( ignoring the logical contradictions of omniscience/omnipotence and incapability to desire or need for anything )

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a basketball.

or

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a machine that makes basketball.

If you say they are both 'perfect' then 'perfect' has no meaning and your question about how does imperfect judge perfection is pointless.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2012, 07:35:05 PM »
When we throw in suffering it points out how and why suffering is pointless.

God desires B
God being omniscient and omnipotent can have B without A
God creates A and B.

The inclusion of A is irrelevant.  A is suffering.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2012, 07:36:17 PM »
Also, on perfection and imperfection.

How is it just for god to create imperfection and punish it for not being as perfect as god?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2012, 07:40:47 PM »
Quote
I'll tell you another secret. If you read the claims from YEC's that the Earth is 6000 years old and replace "6000" with "4.5 billion", you'll see that they're actually telling the truth.

I'm trying to make a subtle point here. I hope it doesn't go over your head.

The Bible does not contradict this.  It shows life to be about that old.

Genesis describes literal 24 hours day as well as a timeline presented in the bible that goes back 6k years.  It is so literal and absurd you can track the genealogy back to adam.

The only way out of it is to rationalize it away, by making stuff up at random not supported by the bible.  IE They are not literal 24 days, etc.

Genesis also incorrectly describes the appearance of life on earth, on top of the other idiotic contradictions.. such as creating light before there was matter capable of radiation.

You know.. the kind of stuff you'd expect from illiterate nomads living in the desert.  Of course.. god couldn't deliver the same message to the chinese over the next horizon who possessed all the means of civilization to actually record such an event.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:42:30 PM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #105 on: April 30, 2012, 07:42:55 PM »
Quote
I'm omnipotent and omniscient, I want a basketball. ( ignoring the logical contradictions of omniscience/omnipotence and incapability to desire or need for anything )

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a basketball.

or

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a machine that makes basketball.

If you say they are both 'perfect' then 'perfect' has no meaning and your question about how does imperfect judge perfection is pointless

Obviously only the best possible solution would be properly called perfect.

Quote
When we throw in suffering it points out how and why suffering is pointless.

God desires B
God being omniscient and omnipotent can have B without A
God creates A and B.

The inclusion of A is irrelevant.  A is suffering.

God doesn't want us to be a bunch of robotlike people.  As fas as I know he may already have some somewhere.  He wants us to obey because we love him and recognize his right to rule his creation.

Love is perfect.  Perfection cannot be obtained witout it.  Love requires free will.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Quesi

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #106 on: April 30, 2012, 07:45:31 PM »
Let's take a brief intermission and contemplate the things that are really important. 


Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #107 on: April 30, 2012, 07:48:29 PM »
Quote
I'm omnipotent and omniscient, I want a basketball. ( ignoring the logical contradictions of omniscience/omnipotence and incapability to desire or need for anything )

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a basketball.

or

Is it more perfect to snap your fingers and have a machine that makes basketball.

If you say they are both 'perfect' then 'perfect' has no meaning and your question about how does imperfect judge perfection is pointless

Obviously only the best possible solution would be properly called perfect.

Excellent, we can easily imagine a better system than the one your god mythos paints.  There isn't any suffering, non-believers don't exist, and everyone knows exactly what god wants them to know.. complete with perfect free will.

Quote
Quote
When we throw in suffering it points out how and why suffering is pointless.

God desires B
God being omniscient and omnipotent can have B without A
God creates A and B.

The inclusion of A is irrelevant.  A is suffering.

God doesn't want us to be a bunch of robotlike people.  As fas as I know he may already have some somewhere.  He wants us to obey because we love him and recognize his right to rule his creation.

Another pleaded qualification.

An omniscient and omnipotent being can have any goal, including one where we are not a bunch of robot like people ( by the way, something else you made up in the total absence of biblical support ).  Everything you just asserted an omnipotent and omniscient being could do.. without anything in between and instantly.

Quote
Love is perfect.  Perfection cannot be obtained witout it.  Love requires free will.

An omniscient omnipotent being can do anything, it can have the end goal free will inspired love with or without suffering.. with or without non-beleivers... with or without existence as we experience.

Again, all you're doing is making up one thing after another to excuse away ( desperately I might have ) that an omniscient omnipotent god could do with or without anyway.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #108 on: April 30, 2012, 07:50:19 PM »
Quote
I'll tell you another secret. If you read the claims from YEC's that the Earth is 6000 years old and replace "6000" with "4.5 billion", you'll see that they're actually telling the truth.

I'm trying to make a subtle point here. I hope it doesn't go over your head.

The Bible does not contradict this.  It shows life to be about that old.

Genesis describes literal 24 hours day as well as a timeline presented in the bible that goes back 6k years.  It is so literal and absurd you can track the genealogy back to adam.

The only way out of it is to rationalize it away, by making stuff up at random not supported by the bible.  IE They are not literal 24 days, etc.

Genesis also incorrectly describes the appearance of life on earth, on top of the other idiotic contradictions.. such as creating light before there was matter capable of radiation.

You know.. the kind of stuff you'd expect from illiterate nomads living in the desert.  Of course.. god couldn't deliver the same message to the chinese over the next horizon who possessed all the means of civilization to actually record such an event.

In a book obviously full of symbols and hidden meanings you certainly don't suggest interpreting it all literal word for word do you? 

Quote
Genesis also incorrectly describes the appearance of life on earth, on top of the other idiotic contradictions.. such as creating light before there was matter capable of radiation

Describe how it is incorrect.  One thing at a time.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #109 on: April 30, 2012, 07:50:42 PM »
If free will is so important, why are we guilty before exist for nothing we could rationally have a choice in to take responsibility for?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #110 on: April 30, 2012, 07:52:52 PM »
In a book obviously full of symbols and hidden meanings you certainly don't suggest interpreting it all literal word for word do you? 

In a book obviously full of contradictions, nebulous meanings, and factual errors regardless if taken literal or metaphorical, you certainly aren't suggesting we interpret it by making up any rationalization possible to confirm a presupposed conditional belief?

Quote
Quote
Genesis also incorrectly describes the appearance of life on earth, on top of the other idiotic contradictions.. such as creating light before there was matter capable of radiation

Describe how it is incorrect.  One thing at a time.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to other posts, such as the one about jewish eschatology.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #111 on: April 30, 2012, 07:54:38 PM »
Quote
Excellent, we can easily imagine a better system than the one your god mythos paints.  There isn't any suffering, non-believers don't exist, and everyone knows exactly what god wants them to know.. complete with perfect free will.

There is a difference between perfect and incorruptible.  A unique few only, Jehovah, Jesus, those few humans that get resurrected to heavenly life beginning with the apostles, ever become incorruptible.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #112 on: April 30, 2012, 07:56:02 PM »
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Ah so the bible says you will go to heaven if you don't believe?

No the Bible says that the time is coming in which ALL those in memorial tombs will come out and the dead will rise.  They will not rise into heaven.  They will rise back to the earth.  This child will be among them.  The 1000 year reign of Jesus will begin next.  This will be "Judgement Day".


.. I just wanted to make sure I understood what you are saying.. [1]

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The Bible does show that there are exceptions to "ALL".

1.  Adam and Eve will not be resurrected.
forget about their damned kids..
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2.  Those that God has personally destroyed or had destroyed will not be resurrected.
There goes one of your theist friends' arguments about the nobility and morality of god, destroying good people for the 'better of mankind' or the 'better kill'..  what nonsense.  God destroyed people that today we would save.  Notables are abundant in scripture/history..
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3.  Those that commit the unforgivable sin will not be resurrected.
Can you tell me how I can commit the unforgivable sin, and then you can spare me being resurrected with 'ALL' you idiots..
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4.  Those that are destroyed during Armageddon will not be resurrected.
I am more likely to destroy you during armageddon.  But what about the people that satan destroys?  They don't get to take part in the resurrection for their bravery?  Notable - it was absolutely brave to go against religion for my fellow atheists..
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5.  Anyone else that God has for his own reasons deems beyond redemption. 
Well, I guess this means nobody is going to be resurrected.  God is a bastard - he will only resurrect those he likes, and then says that he will 'judge based on what people do'.  What an oxymoron.  Everybody has preferences to certain people in life - we all love different people for our own reasons, and you people choose to hate other people (which I don't understand, beyond my grasp) for other reasons..  That being said, who falls in the 'saved category'?  Nobody - because every single group out there is saying that they are the saved ones, everybody else is damned for not being a part of their group, and that leaves the righteous ones happening to be in the correct group at the correct time, which is infamously retarded for any kind of god to require in order to bring someone into the next 'existence/plane of existence', whatever you want to call it.

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Everyone else, the good, the bad, the ugly, all those pre-christian except those fitting the rules above will be resurrected.  It should be noted that it is nearly, if not completely, impossible for a nonbeliever to commit the unforgivable sin.  Really, in the greatest sense, ignorance is an excuse for breaking the law unless that ignorance is intentional.
I'm sure a god that is willing to condemn for the above reasons will excuse ignorance.  Let's excuse people on the basis of stupidity, save all those who never question anything I do or don't do, and I have people that will listen to anything I ever say as the undeniable fact.  That will be a great way to control all of you - saving only the ones that don't think for themselves or question anything..
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Sooo, Jst, that means you are pro-abortion now? Or just pro-miscarriage, since that is god's abortion method of choice?

No this is not so.  Miscarriages happen because of defects or other accidents.  These defects and accidents exist because man is not under God's divine rule[2].  Why would God help humans do something that they were never designed to do and cannot do?  In other words God created humans as imperfect just to teach them a lesson.  All this death, suffering, war, is all God's evidence that humankind cannot govern themselves properly enough to achieve peace or perfection, and cannot survive as a race indefinitely without His rule. However the more evidence he allows mankind to gather the more humans come to hate this all-knowing and caring God.  This was prophesied. <snip>
Bold mine for clarity in the uh, presentation.  Such rubbish.  Can you point me to this prophecy?  I don't remember a prophecy stating the hatred of god...
If we are not currently under God's rule, then why did he have a need to cause so much killings/suffering/being thrown out of the garden of eden?  Why did he intervene at all, if his plan the whole time was to show man that he could not succeed without him.  This goes against what happened in your bible with S&G, the Tower of Babel, etc.  I want to know why it took god's intervention if all he intended was to show us how useless we are without him.  I want to see why the Jews were tortured and killed just to show them 'hey, you guys just don't know what the fuck you're doing down there - but don't worry, all will be seen when I return'.  And if God is trying to prove a point to us, through life's experiences, why doesn't he have us all go through similar experiences?  Will we all have something to offer in this great discussion that will take place in the 1,000 year rule; will we have an explosion of knowledge that somehow can't be shared today?  Will we need to admit - 'yeah god, you showed us - we perfectly defeated ourselves because you allowed us to and we were too dumb to see it coming..'  Why didn't he just create you all intelligent enough to put the pieces together and see for yourselves now? 
In fact, I will say this - God isn't coming to join this party.  If you want to change the world, here and now is the time to do it.  You have this one life, this one chance.  Nobody did us any good dead.  Period.
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You need to understand if humankind would just admit failure this would all be over with.  But they won't, not even if humankind was drawing it's last breath.  And this is why God doesn't heal amputees.
So by admitting defeat, are we alluding here that we are all demons?  Let me give you another picture, that will illustrate what Jesus was saying to you by drinking his blood and eating his body as a ritual[3]



[1]  You are joking, right?  I could say, hey, Jesus started this nonsense.. I need to go prepare for the upcoming zombie apocalypse, then..  Those damn conspiracy theorists were right - I need to take up arms against Jesus and his Zombie Army!!!  *laughing uncontrollably*
[2]  According to the OT and NT, we are certainly, as part of the Kingdom inside us and outside us, and with God intervening and giving us personal experiences, part of God's divine rule, as theoretically sound as a theist would put it..
[3]  Jesus said that only he himself was righteous, and no other.  This fact is repeated in Revelation.  He said at one time that 'demons were drunk off of the blood of the righteous', and 'when man shakes off his wine, then he will listen.'  He wanted to make you realize back in those days that people were acting like demons.  He wanted to wake you up with that slap in the face.  666 - number of man ring a bell??
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:59:56 PM by jeremy0 »
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2012, 07:57:52 PM »
In a book obviously full of symbols and hidden meanings you certainly don't suggest interpreting it all literal word for word do you? 
Wake up - taking the bible as metaphorically only allows ignorant people to change the meaning to something more of their liking..  It was, in fact, a literal book.  Quit playing the fool...
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Genesis also incorrectly describes the appearance of life on earth, on top of the other idiotic contradictions.. such as creating light before there was matter capable of radiation

Describe how it is incorrect.  One thing at a time.
Did you even read what the above statement said?  You must be joking..
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #114 on: April 30, 2012, 07:59:03 PM »
<snip>
If it's weren't for those not believing then we would have never gotten into this mess.  So technically, all the blood that has been shed over the history of mankind is on their hands.
False.  Countless wars have been fought over religious doctrines.  You need to study history, sir.
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #115 on: April 30, 2012, 07:59:28 PM »
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Excellent, we can easily imagine a better system than the one your god mythos paints.  There isn't any suffering, non-believers don't exist, and everyone knows exactly what god wants them to know.. complete with perfect free will.

There is a difference between perfect and incorruptible.  A unique few only, Jehovah, Jesus, those few humans that get resurrected to heavenly life beginning with the apostles, ever become incorruptible.

Again, another fallacy.

Special pleading, here let me explain since you obviously don't have a clue as to what it means:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.[1]

You're inserting incorruptible as a pleaded qualification in order to include or exclude favorable details by alleging a need to apply additional consideration without proper criticism.  In this case, you don't even offer a congruent explanation for the qualification, beyond its insertion.  There isn't even a rational or reasonable attempt for you to explain, other than your evocation of the rhetoric your using itself.

As if you can make a logical contradiction going away by dehumanizing me for not being this unintelligible 'perfection' or insisting the only perfection can be had by jesus.. again.. without explanation as to how it answers the logical contradiction.

So .. why is it that fallacies are your only defense?

How does it even begin to answer anything?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me