Author Topic: Moral laws of the Bible  (Read 12128 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Moral laws of the Bible
« on: April 26, 2012, 12:53:25 PM »
Surely most people wold agree that such laws as "Thou shalt not murder" are good laws.  This is not to debate.  I'm just wondering at what point do some of you diverge from biblical, particularly NT, moral codes.  Exactly which morals do you disagree with?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2012, 01:13:18 PM »
Probably the ones that say "Thou must murder". But that's just my guess.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 01:23:56 PM »
So you are saying there is never a time to kill?  I also specifically meant the morals under which Christian must live.  And nowhere does the Bible instruct them to kill.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 01:27:21 PM »
I also specifically meant the morals under which Christian must live.  And nowhere does the Bible instruct them to kill.

Holy guacamole... are you kidding me?  Leviticus and Deuteronomy prescribe the death penalty for practically everything except jaywalking.  And that probably would have been included, too, if they'd had traffic signals back then.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 01:27:39 PM »
So you are saying there is never a time to kill?
No, he said that ordering people to murder others is not good morality. Killing someone in self defense is not murder. Killing a whole tribe of people for the non-crime of being "not us" and "because God said so" IS murder.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2012, 01:29:57 PM »
I also specifically meant the morals under which Christian must live.  And nowhere does the Bible instruct them to kill.

Holy guacamole... are you kidding me?  Leviticus and Deuteronomy prescribe the death penalty for practically everything except jaywalking.  And that probably would have been included, too, if they'd had traffic signals back then.

Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not the codes christians are commaned to live under.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2012, 01:30:54 PM »
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not the codes christians are commaned to live under.

You don't get to arbitrarily pick and choose what you want to believe.  God did order people to kill, regardless.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2012, 01:31:31 PM »
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not the codes christians are commaned to live under.

Yes, they are.  Those laws were dictated from Yahweh himself, and they have never been revoked.  ("Not one jot or tittle".)
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2012, 01:31:57 PM »
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not the codes christians are commaned to live under.

Your god "created" those codes.  You're saying that you ignore what your god tells you to do.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 01:33:59 PM »
Surely most people wold agree that such laws as "Thou shalt not murder" are good laws.  This is not to debate.  I'm just wondering at what point do some of you diverge from biblical, particularly NT, moral codes.  Exactly which morals do you disagree with?

There are no such biblical moral codes.  The bible instead espouses a survival benefit strategy based on avoiding harm in a supernatural afterlife.

Over half of the commandments have nothing to do with basic morality and are instead self reinforcing dogma tied to belief.  The bible also goes on to condemn non-belief in its own superstitious myths as immoral, as well as other purely arbitrary and pointless imagined issues such as homosexuality.

No where does the bible or jesus espouse loving everyone and it is always delivered in a context that is insular and self serving to those who believe, rather than those who do not believe.  Biblically people are defined as evil/enemy/antichrist by their lack of a belief alone, not because of anything they do reasonably.  The command to love your enemy is juxtaposed against the fact that your enemy is condemned to hell.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 01:34:13 PM »
So you are saying there is never a time to kill?  I also specifically meant the morals under which Christian must live.  And nowhere everywhere does the Bible instruct them to kill.
Fixed that. In the Bible, God is constantly instructing his followers to kill non-believers, whether they be of the "wrong" faith or no faith at all. Some of them can be kept to be used as slaves and sex objects. You can't say that orders given by God are not representative of what God wants his followers to do.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »
Surely most people wold agree that such laws as "Thou shalt not murder" are good laws.  This is not to debate.  I'm just wondering at what point do some of you diverge from biblical, particularly NT, moral codes.  Exactly which morals do you disagree with?
yep, good laws that were around far longer than your primitive book.  let's look at some of the rest.

but then we have laws in those same commandments (which don't stop at 10 at all) that say such lovely things as

don't take the name of the lord in vain.  who cares about the name of a bogeyman?

keep the sabbath holy.  Oh yes, when is this "sabbath"?  Christians can't agree, and what makes one day better or more "holy" than the next? A book that claims that snakes talk, golly what an unimpeachable source.

Honor your father and mother.  Nope only if they deserve it. 

You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.  Ah, murder for your god.

Whoever lies carnally with a beast shall surely be put to death.  To death?  I don’t agree with beastiality since it is likely painful for the critter, but death? 

He who sacrifices to any god but the Lord only shall be utterly destroyed.  More murder for your god.

But I’m sure you’ll claim that these dont’ count or some such excuse that Christians use to avoid having to obey the inconvenient and ridiculous laws yoru god gave and your supposed savior said were still in force (we do still see the heaven and earth right here). 

Let’s look at the NT, shall we? 

The support of slavery. Luke 12 Ephesians 6.  Slaves are to obey their masters, even harsh ones (1 Peter 2).  Not one word against slavery.  And yes, slavery means the same slavery as now, not indentured servitude as Christians would like to pretend.

Considering women second class citizens.  Women can’t teach men. Women can’t speak in “church”.  Women are responsible for the sins of the earth. Women can’t be saved unless by childbirth. 

Killing people for money or for lying. Ananias and Sapphira.

Saying that homosexuals (or if you want another translation, temple sex workers) deserve death.  Romans 1

Claiming that the Jews are wrong but having not one scrap of evident that you are right.  That seems rather a lie since you have no evidence that they are wrong at all.

A god that works with its enemy to corrupt more people, after all of the supposed “evil” ones were killed. Revelation 19-20 

A god that needs a bloody murder to do anything.  Indeed, jst, what would have happened if someone had done the right thing and helped Jesus not be cruxified? 

Now, I’m wondering about the moral actions that most Christians disagree with / ignore in the bible, particularly the NT.  I know you don’t like the OT because it is ridiculous and inconvenient.  I mean really, trying to play musical chairs so you don’t get cooties from a menstruating woman? Pretty silly.  Killing people who pick up sticks on a certain day?  Malls wouldn’t have many employees would they?  How many Christians do as JC supposedly said and have given up all they have to follow him, depending on God alone as the lilies and the birds?  How many of you live communally like Paul claimed was now God’s wish?   
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2012, 01:42:55 PM »
So you are saying there is never a time to kill?

The ONLY time I might consider killing another life form[1] even REMOTELY excusable is if it was done for self-preservation.
 1. Yes, even protozoa.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2012, 01:43:21 PM »
The bible is also filled with vicious vindictive language, constantly dehumanizing non-believers in virtually any context in which a non-believer is cited and for no other purpose than that individual being a non-believer.  They are defined immoral by their complicit lack of participation in the cult.   The bible is so incredibly insecure within the merits of its own claims that it can't leave those who do not believe unmolested, it HAS to demean them for the benefit of promoting the in group over the out group.  It then comes as no surprise that christianity has violently lead the away many times over in terms of genocidal historical conflicts against those who are either non-christian or imagined to be non-christian.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 01:58:40 PM »
Holy guacamole... are you kidding me?  Leviticus and Deuteronomy prescribe the death penalty for practically everything except jaywalking.  And that probably would have been included, too, if they'd had traffic signals back then.
Wrong, Pianodwarf.

Rabbinical Judaism says that walking beyond the fence of your property, unless it is to go to the synagogue, is a violation of the Sabbath.  And violations of the Sabbath are dealt with thusly:
Quote
Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death:  all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

So there is a law against jaywalking[1] and it does have a death penalty. 
 1. Sort of.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 02:01:49 PM »
Is it the capital punishment that you don't agree with or the reasons for the capital punishment?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 02:03:49 PM »
Rabbinical Judaism says that walking beyond the fence of your property, unless it is to go to the synagogue, is a violation of the Sabbath.

Huh... interesting, I didn't know that.  I haven't seen that anywhere in the bible, but of course this would hardly be the first time that a rule without a biblical base was created by and for those who profess to follow the bible.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 02:09:49 PM »
Is it the capital punishment that you don't agree with or the reasons for the capital punishment?

the death sentences in the bible and the reasons for them? both are symptomatic of an primitive and ignorant society.  this god is no better than any other of the gods made up by man in the bronze and iron age.   Zeus, Mars, Tezcatlipoca, all are petty nasty things.   
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »
Okay, other than the ones dealing with God, how many disagree with the moral correctness of the Ten Commandments?

I am just wondering if there is any common ground at all between theists and the athiests that post here.  I mean, is there anything in the Bible we can agree that is good and correct?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 02:43:30 PM »
I also specifically meant the morals under which Christian must live.  And nowhere does the Bible instruct them to kill.

Holy guacamole... are you kidding me?  Leviticus and Deuteronomy prescribe the death penalty for practically everything except jaywalking.  And that probably would have been included, too, if they'd had traffic signals back then.

Leviticus and Deuteronomy are not the codes christians are commaned to live under.

What book of the bible does "Thou shalt not murder" come from? NT or OT?
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2012, 02:49:57 PM »
Okay, other than the ones dealing with God, how many disagree with the moral correctness of the Ten Commandments?

It would depend on which "Ten Commandments", specifically, you're referring to -- they vary a bit from faith to faith.  Broadly speaking, though, I can get probably get behind three of them (murdering, stealing, bearing false witness) and a fourth conditionally (adultery, although I would add that I think that only applies in relationships where monogamy is either agreed upon or assumed).  The other six are either irrelevant or nonsensical.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 03:12:46 PM by pianodwarf »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 03:09:27 PM »
Quote
What book of the bible does "Thou shalt not murder" come from? NT or OT?

Both.  Jesus reiterates them when asked what one must do to get to heaven.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2012, 03:20:09 PM »
Okay, other than the ones dealing with God, how many disagree with the moral correctness of the Ten Commandments?

I am just wondering if there is any common ground at all between theists and the athiests that post here.  I mean, is there anything in the Bible we can agree that is good and correct?

I see you are trying ot ignore everyone's post and points and trying for a new question.  Typical.  There are certain morals that civilizations have in common.  No god/gods needed.  The golden rule was around long before your xenophobic agrarians, so the bible does nothing but crib from other cultures.  There is nothing in your collection of myths that is good and hasn't been done before.

I've posted the problems with your commandments.  and again, they dont' stop at 10 no matter how hard the theist in qustion hopes they do. 
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2012, 03:38:46 PM »
I'm probably less of a fan of Richard Dawkins than most of the folks here, but he proposed an alternative to the Ten Commandments, which I really like. 
 

 1.Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you.

 2.In all things, strive to cause no harm.

 3.Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.

 4.Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.

 5.Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.

 6.Always seek to be learning something new.

 7.Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.

 8.Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.

 9.Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.

 10.Question everything.


I think that this list is more relevant than the one traditionally attributed to a "jealous God."  And while I do agree with your "jealous God" about not coveting the possessions of others (we are way too consumeristic as it is) I really cannot comprehend the stuff about not making graven images and keeping the Sabbath holy. 

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2012, 03:41:13 PM »
Okay, other than the ones dealing with God, how many disagree with the moral correctness of the Ten Commandments?

I am just wondering if there is any common ground at all between theists and the athiests that post here.  I mean, is there anything in the Bible we can agree that is good and correct?


Why aren't you responding to posts?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2012, 04:38:23 PM »
I stated at the beginning this was not for debate but to gather information.  The subject is what moral laws in the Bible do you not agree with.  I have not made any attemt here to change anyone's opinion about which are right and wrong.

Only a couple here have tried to proved the question with any serious answers.  As the OP I'm saying the purpose of this post was to see if there was any common ground, morally speaking, at all.  I have not debated but only asked questions for clarification.  There is no right or wrong here. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2012, 04:39:57 PM »
I stated at the beginning this was not for debate but to gather information.  The subject is what moral laws in the Bible do you not agree with.  I have not made any attemt here to change anyone's opinion about which are right and wrong.

Only a couple here have tried to proved the question with any serious answers.  As the OP I'm saying the purpose of this post was to see if there was any common ground, morally speaking, at all.  I have not debated but only asked questions for clarification.  There is no right or wrong here.

So you're dismissing posts out of hand because they don't agree with what you want to hear... and there is no right or wrong here?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2012, 04:48:19 PM »
No.  Obvsiously people largely don't agree with OT law.

So I asked about NT law.  Opinions were a little different.

Then I asked about NT laws not relating to God.

Maybe I should have just asked, "What are your morals?"  What is right and wrong?  I think in relation to the Bible, hence the reference.  Although that would require a much longer answer.

Which posts ask me a question I did not answer.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here so I'm not sure what replies you are expecting.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Traveler

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Re: Moral laws of the Bible
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2012, 04:51:12 PM »
The list of rules that Quasi listed, from Dawkins, looks MUCH better as guidelines for society than the 10 commandments. I would LOVE to see the world that would exist if we had 2000 years under those guidelines.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.