Poll

Are demons Real?

Yes
1 (4.2%)
No
19 (79.2%)
Not sure
0 (0%)
want proof
4 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: May 05, 2012, 02:04:21 PM

Author Topic: Demon Possession  (Read 17706 times)

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Offline Nick

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2012, 10:50:57 PM »
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof.  You quesitons are not valid for this forum.  I personally believe in demons, I have seen them, I have experience interactions with them and wonder if any one else has. 

If you want to have theological discussion of how they were created and where they come from I will be more then happy to go down that road.
What kind of drug were you on.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2012, 10:53:46 PM »
What did they look like?

How did you interact with them?

Sometimes they are translucent, others are black wisps.   

Quote
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent
.

Interesting.  I am sure Christopher Columbus was told the same thing about America. 


Quote
Demons are imaginary.  You have probably talked to your god as well.  In reality it is all in your mind.  Your demons and such


That is funny a house full of people that do not believe in god witnessed it and can testify to what happened.  but that is not proof enough.  They called us we answered the call. 

Black eyes, multiple toned voices, spitting at us was the imagination of 6 different people.  If that is the case I am delusional.
They must be afraid of atheists.  We have challenged demons to come here often over the years.      We should be ripe for the picking.  And just like your imaginay sky daddy...nothing.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2012, 10:55:59 PM »
Question for you Nathan:

You claim to have witnessed exorcisms. This person you witnessed who was under possession and later had an exorcism preformed on him or her, what kind of faith this person have? On a range from 1 - 10, one being very weak faith, 5 being a moderate level of faith and 10 being very strong faith, rate this person's faith in your god.

EDIT: And also, how well did you know this person.

Please don't dodge this question. I am truly curious to know.

i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.
You are a nut.
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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2012, 11:22:35 PM »
i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 

Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

If you aren't a Poe or a troll, you are delusional. I feel sorry for you, but sorrier for those you've harmed and encouraged in their own delusions while "exorcising" them.

If such things actually happened, there would be evidence for them. Since no one has ever produced verifiable evidence for the supernatural, such lies and delusions can be discounted.

The human mind is very easily deceived; a holdover from when it was safer to run from an imagined lion in the tall grass than fail to spot a real one. You and I have the luxury of living in a time when human inquiry and endeavor has paid off in ways literally unimaginable to our ancestors. That you choose to remain cocooned in your bubble of delusion and ignorance, while surrounded by opportunities to step out of it, astounds and saddens me.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2012, 12:23:19 AM »
It's called schizophrenia and it is a serious mental condition. Exorcisms only make it worse, as they may feed into the persons delusion...

...Seriously, if you see this man again, take him to see someone qualified to treat his condition, and that person is not someone who has studied theology, that person is someone who has studied neuropathology.

^^^ This.

I think "demons" are a psychological and neurological phenomenon, 100% natural and 0% supernatural.  I also think that it's criminally negligent to offer mythological woo-woo in the place of readily-available medical therapy.
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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »
Quote
The fact that you can't provide any worthy evidence is evidence to me that demons are non-existent
.
Interesting.  I am sure Christopher Columbus was told the same thing about America. 
This just makes my alternate historian toes curl. Columbus hadn't a clue about America. Even after walking around on it, he was unaware of where exactly he had been. If he had studied the available data, he'd have known that no way had he traveled far enough to be in India already. Yes, pretty good estimates of the circumference was already known at the time.[1] But he chose to ignore the available evidence and go with the explanation that suited him. Land? Must be India!
Or in the case of our Nathan ...
I see strange things? Must be demons!


As for the above post ...

I concur with Argyle and Astreja. The parts of the brain that light up when someone sees a demon are the same ones that process our perception of the world around us. That part (I forgot what it's called, anyone?) is there to process input. It's its raison d'être.[2] and when not enough data is coming in to process. The brain just starts making up data to throw at that part of the brain.[3] Must Process data ... MUST PROCESS DATA. So to the owner of the brain, the results coming from that processed made up data is indestinguishable from the processed real world data. The only way he can tell that person a is real and person b is not, is by engaging other parts of his brain.
"Is it logical that a guy with black eyes is standing in my locked bedroom, wearing a chicken carcass on his head?"
It takes training, but some schitzophrenics can learn to ignore the stuff their brains make up ... though it can still catch them unawares and they sometimes realise that the person they've been talking to for the past half hour ... doesn't exist.
And that's people who are aware of their condition and are actively taking steps to remedy it.
Now, poeple like our Nathan (if he's not a poe/troll) have been told by their religion that demons are real. This stops them from even realising that they have a condition in the first place never mind taking steps to overcome the condition.




 1. had been for over a thousand years
 2. Or rather, its raison d'avoir été évolué
 3. phantom pains exist because of a similar process. The perception of the self is suddenly missing a limb and just starts making up thing that the missing limb 'should' be feeling
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 02:45:58 AM by Fiji »
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2012, 06:53:01 AM »
... okay.  So I read this.

NATHAN - I hate to toss an internet meme at you in liu of actually going into some sort of detailed discussion, but this one is particularly apropos:

"Pics, or it didn't happen."

I am willing to entertain evidence of the supernatural, but what you're presenting here isn't evidence, it's an anecdote.  Given that my own experiences belie what you're saying here... well.. I'm not inclined to believe you.

I say that with all the respect I can muster:  before I fell off the religious wagon (as it were), I was a dedicated amateur ghost hunter, the kind of guy that went to every local haunted house and cemetery just to see if I could come up with more evidence for the existence of the supernatural.  I can tell you dozens of stories like the one you're sharing that, as I learned to be skeptical of my experiences, didn't hold up as I came to better understand science, probability, and reality.   What I thought I saw at the time just wasn't what it really was, once I was armed with the knowledge to understand the causes behind it.

Folks on this forum know that, for several years, I ran cons to eat - little grifts and 'spiritual' seances, tarot card readings, voodoo 'luck' charms, that sort of nonsense.  Doing that gives you a certain amount of perspective:  people cling to hope.  They want people to be able to speak to their dead relatives, or to blame their streak of bad circumstances on some sort of errant curse.  They want the universe to make sense, to have causes they can understand - and guys like what I was prey on that delusion.  The thing is:  it worked on the people around that person as well.  I could, with a straight face, tell my mark that I could see an "aura of evil" around them, and you would be shocked at how their 'sensitive' friend they brought with 'em would jump to confirm my vision. 

I don't think that these 'friends' were lying - I think the power of a well-placed experience is such that they could see that nonsense.  They suspended their disbelief, and their mind filled in the gap.

Perhaps that happened to you - chanting an incense and a guy who's delusional turns into a full-blown demonic exorcism with black wisps and vague shapes, 'tongues' and other names you inadvertantly dredged out of some poor schmuck's subconscious.  I could have done it, when I was practicing that kind of patter every day; John Edwards, that unconscionable fraud, does the same thing every week, if gentler than your description.

I don't know.

But I can tell you that what you've offered so far isn't outside of the realm of something I could accomplish, given a roomful of strangers in a spooky location, the right buildup, and a few, simple, non-Fx-grade props (like a bible and a collar, for instance).  Afterwords, they'd all firmly believe it happened - and some would go on believing even after I told them it was utterly false.

Don't believe me?

Watch Darren Brown do it to a bunch of unsuspecting folk:

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Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2012, 07:00:54 AM »
For clarity:
We were called to a non believers house.  The house in the community we live in is know for "ghost " activity.  The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

This particular night the young man was drunk and challenged the what ever was in the house to dwell within him.  He open a legalistic door which the demon walked through.  The young man became violent as he was speaking in multiple voices to the family.  The went further to physical violence in which the husband physically choked the young man out to get him under control.  When we arrived the young man had black eyes, spoke in multiple voices, and stated that there were many in him. 

By the way the pastor I was with holds a doctorate in counseling and he interviewed the young man.  In the misty of all that was going on we finally hear the young man's voice.  through a process he accepted Christ giving us authority to move forward.  If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.  Through prayer, and spiritual discernment God delivered the young man. 

I will discuss this with the people involved but I am very reluctant due to the abusive nature of people here.  I am not schizophrenic but it is so like the medical field to just throw labels on people. 

I would love to go to an mental hospital with the gifting God has given me and prove to you God's discerning power.  You do not have to tell me anything about the people I will let god.  Prove me wrong or right.  But would you have the mental ability to handle truth if you saw.  The answer is probably no.  You in your ration mind with see and justify so you do not have to believe it.   

To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be decieved one way or another. 

You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

Just becuase you do not believe it does not mean it is not real.  I have never seen you do this mean you are not real.  All the posting could be one person with multiple personals.  Thus I am not  real and that makes you a schizophrenic.




Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2012, 07:02:58 AM »

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."


Do you tell rape victims that?  How about murder victims?

That is amazingly stupid.

Offline Grimm

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2012, 07:08:36 AM »

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."


Do you tell rape victims that?  How about murder victims?

That is amazingly stupid.

Did you actually /read/ the post, or did you just stop there?
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Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2012, 07:12:50 AM »

Quote
"Pics, or it didn't happen."



My apologies

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2012, 07:27:00 AM »
NATHAN, I propose to you, the psychological theory of:

Reconstructive Memory

Quote
Subjectively, memory feels like a camera that faithfully records and replays details of our past. In fact, memory is a reconstructive process prone to systematic biases and errors—reliable at times, and unreliable at others. Memories are a combination of new and old knowledge, personal beliefs, and one's own and others' expectations. We blend these ingredients in forming a past that conforms to one's haphazardly accurate view of oneself and the world.

If you all really believed in demonic possession, then this situation, perhaps with somebody who was suffering from schizophrenia (which could actually be triggered by his consumption of alcohol - as alcohol & other drugs can trigger somebody's schizophrenic behaviour[1] - your beliefs created certain expectations you attribute to demonic possession and remember the situation as such. However, the experience may not have been the case. You may have a schizophrenic who NEEDS help from a professional. You say he was violent too, this is another symptom of it and it also suggests the urgency of him seeing a medical professional because it could be dangerous.

With ALL this in mind, I'm going to quote myself:

Quote from: Me
On the note of exorcism, you can't give us ANY actual proof that demon possession is real, but simply what you and other claim to witness or what you interpret as demonic possession and seek to exorcise these people. Surely with how common so-called exorcisms are we'd have something conclusive? Instead, this practice can lead to the death of so-called 'possessed' people. http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html

I think with this dangerous superstition, there is a severe call for proof on this.

Because I feel this needs to addressed. The superstition of Exorcism is dangerous, so we need strong evidence to suggest it actually ISN'T a superstition, because you're talking about a harmful practice and if demonic possession is just a myth, it's a practice that NEEDS to be stopped.
 1. again, my example is my uncle, who drinks & takes drugs, despite being a schizophrenic
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Offline Grimm

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2012, 07:42:21 AM »
For clarity:
We were called to a non believers house.  The house in the community we live in is know for "ghost " activity.  The family would report to us that kitchen drawers would be open and even knives being thrown at members of the family.  They all reported seeing dark wispy figures in their rooms and sounds such as foot steps, voices, and thumps. 

I've been in homes like that - what's odd about those houses is that the residents always seem to see these things, but never when non-residents are present.  That is:  bring a skeptic, and nothing happens. 

This isn't an uncommon phenomenon - it's akin to a 'shared delusion', but that seems such a clinical way of putting what is a rather remarkable and very human experience:  we both want to believe and trust those who share our existence, who are within our circle of friends.  It's almost like going to the movies, actually.

When you go to a film, your brain actually begins the experience with the idea that you're willing to allow whatever the filmmaker wants to show you to affect you.  In a good film, they take this willingness to believe and use it to drive you into suspension of disbelief, where the emotional impact of the story gains incredible weight and, for at least the time you're watching the film, some part of you believes in that film's reality.

It happens all the time in 'ghost hauntings' - you go in prepared to see a ghost, ready to believe.  This makes it easier, when the house creaks or someone forgets to close a drawer, to draw the conclusion that these odd, explainable events really have no explanation. 

.. and that's a dime summary.  The real phenomenon is far more interesting and exciting, as reality is prone to be, than can be adequately explained in a short space like this one.

Quote
This particular night the young man was drunk and challenged the what ever was in the house to dwell within him.  He open a legalistic door which the demon walked through.  The young man became violent as he was speaking in multiple voices to the family.  The went further to physical violence in which the husband physically choked the young man out to get him under control.  When we arrived the young man had black eyes, spoke in multiple voices, and stated that there were many in him. 

When you arrived, the 'husband' had been in a physical altercation with the young man, including choking.  This is the first piece of actual 'evidence' you're presenting; this 'legalistic door' that you're bringing up and the events of the challenge?  Anecdotal at best.

Why do demons have rules?  Who sets those rules?  What are the basis for your assertions about them, beyond popular culture's perception of Catholic mythology?  Why is it that every person who does something similar doesn't have the same outcome - or even a significant percentage? 

Then you arrive.  I can class this in 'eyewitness testimony', which is the weakest form of evidence.  To-wit:  "the young man had black eyes."  Was the house lighting poor?  Were you mistaking an embolism (which can cause the breaking of blood vessels in the sclera of the eyes and is often a secondary effect of violent choking or eye trauma, say, from punching) for a supernatural effect?  (Anecdotally:  I'm a diver.  I've seen a fellow surface too quickly, and get ocular edema - which, among other rather horrifying symptoms, made their eyes look wholly black.)  Did he have trauma from rubbing or clawing at his own eyes?  Did he normally wear contacts, which can exacerbate injury? 

You state that the young man was drunk.  This raises other questions:  how drunk?  How much did he have to drink that had yet to enter his system?  When you arrived, was he recovering or was his BAC still increasing?  What is the man's history while drunk - is he a violent or manic drunk? 

We now have a potential alternate explanation:  living in a house where the young man believed there to be a haunting, he got quite drunk and, with the egging on of his friends, 'opened himself to the influences of the house'.  Under chemical (depressive) influence, in the ambiance of the party that would lead to that sort of nonsense, and given the belief of the group in the house's haunting... well, it's a fairly common thing to 'break' into something like what you're describing. 

Additionally, this is a very 'hollywood' description of a possession.  The parallels to common and mass-consumed media are strong.  This should be cause for suspicion:  why would a 'possession' match up to the usual symptoms expressed by the media, when middle-ages documentation of possession is as varied as can be?  No alternate symptoms are present, and no 'expression of the supernatural' exists beyond how the boy acts.

Quote
By the way the pastor I was with holds a doctorate in counseling and he interviewed the young man.  In the misty of all that was going on we finally hear the young man's voice.  through a process he accepted Christ giving us authority to move forward.  If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.  Through prayer, and spiritual discernment God delivered the young man. 

Did you state that 'Christ could fix him', or some other similar expression, at any time?  Did you ever express doubt in the possession?  Did you enter the area with serious faces and already talking about demons, or did you come in (as a counsellor should) with the best smile you could manage and comforting words?

When viewing the young man's distress, did this councellor ask about drugs, alcohol, and precursor events?  Did he check for tracks and ask about medications?  Was there any discussion of the gentleman's mental state, history, or other potentially relevant issues?  After the expression of violence, did he call medical professionals?

(In the last case, if not, then he's in gross professional dereliction.)

Did your actions lead to the suggestion that behaving in the manner you expressed (accepting Christ in that moment) would lead to a lessoning of mental distress, and if not then he would have no help?  (If so, then what you did, essentially, was offer a sort of mental suggestion to an inebriated and distressed individual to commit to an activity to ease suffering.  I'm not shocked he acquiesced.)

Quote
I will discuss this with the people involved but I am very reluctant due to the abusive nature of people here.  I am not schizophrenic but it is so like the medical field to just throw labels on people. 

Disagreement is not abuse.  On the other hand, your casual dismissal of the 'medical field' implies that you are utterly unwilling to accept that there may be a physical (or purely mental) cause of the symptoms you dealt with.  This implies that you have absolutely no training that could help you separate purely medical causes (or a psychotic break) from demon possession, which will lead you to misclassification.

Quote
I would love to go to an mental hospital with the gifting God has given me and prove to you God's discerning power.  You do not have to tell me anything about the people I will let god.  Prove me wrong or right.  But would you have the mental ability to handle truth if you saw.  The answer is probably no.  You in your ration mind with see and justify so you do not have to believe it.   

... which is further identified here.  I live in Chattanooga, TN - if you're nearby, I'll gladly go with you to Moccasin Bend (our local inpatient psychiatric facility) and, if the doctors will allow it and you won't make patients' situations worse, I'll document everything that happens in several media.  We can arrange this, and you're welcome.

By the by, if you want to say how bad we are, tossing insults yourself about people's mental abilities is quite dangerous, especially given that your anecdote implies a certain amount of criminal and professional malfesance, at least on your partner's part.

Quote
To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be decieved one way or another. 

I have no doubt that you believe you experienced these events as described.  However, my question for you is:  how much of what you experienced is colored by your own belief?

Quote

You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

hey, Emily, how did you sleep?

Quote

Just becuase you do not believe it does not mean it is not real.  I have never seen you do this mean you are not real.  All the posting could be one person with multiple personals.  Thus I am not  real and that makes you a schizophrenic.

No.  That entire solipsism ... bit.. of nonsense there is just very, very silly.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2012, 07:47:47 AM »
Nathan, I welcome a demon to come take me over.  As a matter of fact...I challenge one to do so.  Come get me demon (do I have to put salt on it's tail and dance around or what?).  Here demon, here demon, come get me.

OK, we'll see what happens.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2012, 07:48:44 AM »
Nathan, I welcome a demon to come take me over.  As a matter of fact...I challenge one to do so.  Come get me demon (do I have to put salt on it's tail and dance around or what?).  Here demon, here demon, come get me.

OK, we'll see what happens.

I'll be over in a second. ;)
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Offline hickdive

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2012, 07:58:56 AM »
If he had not accepted Christ we would have walked away.

Just to be clear would you clarify this please?

If the victim had not accepted christ would you have refused to help him because:

(A) Your only means of helping him was through his acceptance of christ or

(B) You would refuse assistance (and more specifically your pastor, 'a trained counsellor' would also have refused assistance) to someone who would not accept your world view, even under duress?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2012, 08:15:54 AM »
I am asking opinion and belief of individual (thank you for the correction).  You are asking for proof. 
If one's opinion is not supported by any kind of evidence, it isn't worth much. Given the complete lack of evidence in regards to demons, it is safe to conclude that demons do not, in fact, exist.[1] In the case of demons, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. By their very nature, the presence of demons would be quite apparent to all. Pretty hard to miss a super powerful being that is hell bent on death, destruction and misery for mankind.
 1.  I anticipate an objection to this statement. However, to be clear, evidence is only required for a positive claim. The claim "Leprechauns exist" requires evidence for belief. Not believing in Leprechauns is the default position, so to say, and does not require evidence to support it, just as not believing in demons is the default position in this case. Indeed, it is by definition impossible to have evidence for something that doesn't exist, since, not existing, it can leave no trace to be detected. I would really hope that is self evident.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2012, 08:53:34 AM »
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This is the first piece of actual 'evidence' you're presenting; this 'legalistic door' that you're bringing up and the events of the challenge?  Anecdotal at best.
We found about the altercation three days later during our follow up. 
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Why do demons have rules?
  The universe is set up on rule/ laws/ and principles.   God is Holy and as such has authority over them.  To think everything we see and the forces holding this planet and universe together.  There are laws of physics and laws of nature. There are processes no one can argue.  I hope we can agree on that.
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Who sets those rules?
  You know my answer to this, God is a go of order and as such set the rules long ago. Chaos does not bring order.  only order can bring order. 
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What are the basis for your assertions about them, beyond popular culture's perception of Catholic mythology?
  I do not follow the catholic faith.  Religion is how man can be controled by other men.  Belief in Jesus's teaching and who he is allows us eternal freedom.  There is a big difference there.
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Why is it that every person who does something similar doesn't have the same outcome - or even a significant percentage?
  There can be multiple reasons. Unforgiven is a very powerful mental process that can block god from working in a person's life. A person that does not want god or to experience god mostlikely will not be touched by God. 
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/forgiveness/MH00131
 
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Was the house lighting poor?  Were you mistaking an embolism (which can cause the breaking of blood vessels in the sclera of the eyes and is often a secondary effect of violent choking or eye trauma, say, from punching) for a supernatural effect?
  Very Good Point. 
 
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Did he have trauma from rubbing or clawing at his own eyes?  Did he normally wear contacts, which can exacerbate injury?
  There was no visible trauma and he does not wear contacts. 
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how drunk?
  when we arrived it was reported he only had a few beers/ 3/4 4 hours before. 
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How much did he have to drink that had yet to enter his system?  When you arrived, was he recovering or was his BAC still increasing?  What is the man's history while drunk - is he a violent or manic drunk? 
These are very good questions I can not answer. 
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when middle-ages documentation of possession is as varied as can be?  No alternate symptoms are present, and no 'expression of the supernatural' exists beyond how the boy acts.
  I am interested to know the mileage documentation. 
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Did you state that 'Christ could fix him', or some other similar expression, at any time?  Did you ever express doubt in the possession?  Did you enter the area with serious faces and already talking about demons, or did you come in (as a counsellor should) with the best smile you could manage and comforting words? we entered the house with open minds.When viewing the young man's distress, did this counselor ask about drugs, alcohol, and precursor events?  Did he check for tracks and ask about medications?  Was there any discussion of the gentleman's mental state, history, or other potentially relevant issues?  After the expression of violence, did he call medical professionals?
yes we asked about drugs and looked for needle marks.  The young man was known to be of sound mental state. 
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Did your actions lead to the suggestion that behaving in the manner you expressed (accepting Christ in that moment) would lead to a lessoning of mental distress, and if not then he would have no help?  (If so, then what you did, essentially, was offer a sort of mental suggestion to an inebriated and distressed individual to commit to an activity to ease suffering.  I'm not shocked he acquiesced.)
  We did discuss God's love for him
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Disagreement is not abuse.  On the other hand, your casual dismissal of the 'medical field' implies that you are utterly unwilling to accept that there may be a physical (or purely mental) cause of the symptoms you dealt with.  This implies that you have absolutely no training that could help you separate purely medical causes (or a psychotic break) from demon possession, which will lead you to misclassification.
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  I total disagree.  the Medical profession is needed to help people work through issues in their life.  I apologize if you think I am belittling the medical field.  I also know that it is human nature to do what you know and people like to throw labels and diagnosis.
   
... which is further identified here.  I live in Chattanooga, TN - if you're nearby, I'll gladly go with you to Moccasin Bend (our local inpatient psychiatric facility) and, if the doctors will allow it and you won't make patients' situations worse, I'll document everything that happens in several media.  We can arrange this, and you're welcome.
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  My schedule is very full full but let me see what I can do about coming out this summer.  I will PM you my Phone number if that is OK?

By the by, if you want to say how bad we are, tossing insults yourself about people's mental abilities is quite dangerous, especially given that your anecdote implies a certain amount of criminal and professional malfesance, at least on your partner's part.

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To reiterate  was with a trained counselor and this was not something made up in our minds.  It was real whether you choose to believe it or not.  Deception is the plan of any enemy and the best part of deception is not knowing you are being deceived.  Ever person cn be deceived one way or another. 

I have no doubt that you believe you experienced these events as described.  However, my question for you is:  how much of what you experienced is colored by your own belief.
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  it is my belief that placed my in the situation so I would say it is all my belief just like your belief system does not lead to that place. It is OK to have disagreement. 

Offline velkyn

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2012, 09:20:37 AM »
i am answering on my phone so please forgive the typos

the house was demonically charged.  the people living there were making fun of it and thought it was cool.
one night a guy was drunk.  he was not a believer nor was he seeking god.   he challenged the thing to dwell within him.  the demon entered him and took control.  by the time we arrived his eyes were completely black.
he would be himself one minute and then something else.  demon only have permission when we let them.  the man spoke in different voices.  spit at his dog tags which were blessed prior to his military departure to iran. 
he was violent.  in the mist of all this when mike was speaking we asked him if would receive christ. he said yes.  we asked who he was and he said many. balith was another name given to us. 
Three hours later he had peace.

There are people that still live in the house that are not believers that can verify what i am saying.

who are they? Phone numbers?  address?

now, I've seen other theists make the exact same claims.  So can a Wiccan dispel these "demons" too?  A Muslim Imam?  An Hindu guru?  A tribal witch doctor?  They make the same baseless claims as you.  I'm guessing yuo don't believe their claims.  Why should we believe yours? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Argyle

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2012, 09:44:52 AM »
One of my favorite posts of all time was in a discussion I had with a theist. I had completely flattened one of his arguments, and his response was to tell me that I was being inspired by demons to combat his religion.

I responded quite calmly that I was also being influenced by demons to put him on ignore.
Once someone is convinced that your use of systematic logic and epistemic integrity are evidence of demon possession, it becomes very difficult to have any kind of reasonable conversation.
Cheers!
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Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline vipersgirl49

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2012, 10:26:45 AM »
I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with..Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you.. Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon. I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person. There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence" for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal..Demons have the ability to mess with things..electronics...lights...even just your everyday normal household things.. Keep an open mind and always remember God WILL  always see you through..If you are someone who has dealt with this first hand do NOT under any circumstance let anyone defer you and try to convince you that you are crazy God and we know that you are not!

Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2012, 10:28:18 AM »
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The human mind is very easily deceived; a holdover from when it was safer to run from an imagined lion in the tall grass than fail to spot a real one. You and I have the luxury of living in a time when human inquiry and endeavor has paid off in ways literally unimaginable to our ancestors. That you choose to remain cocooned in your bubble of delusion and ignorance, while surrounded by opportunities to step out of it, astounds and saddens me.

So you admit you can be decieved?  are you being decieved thinking this world is all that exists.  People believe in UFO's are they crazy even after photos.

What about the sounds being heard all over the world.    Thousands heard it and it made the news are they crazy. 
can t be explained. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 10:30:52 AM by NATHAN »

Offline One Above All

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
I'm sorry, but the only answer to this much stupidity is this:
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Emily

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2012, 10:49:07 AM »
You want proof ask emily how she slept after inviting a legion of demon in.  Do not play with this demonic Rhelm!

I actually slept great. Thanks for asking! Honestly (since my husband is out of town with a few of his buddies) perhaps the best sleep I had in years. Two strange things did happen, however. One, I woke up to go to the bathroom, flicked on the light and got a little bit of a shock (my husband is remodeling the bathroom and there is no faceplate on the switch, but I've never been shocked before.), and two my coffee pot didn't brew  :(. The pot is set on a timer and it didn't go off, which kind of made me upset.

But nothing really out of the ordinary. I didn't get any close encounters and as far as I can tell I am not demonically possessed. I am not saying demons weren't here, but maybe they mistakenly possessed my sister instead of me.[1]

But yeah, I kind of feel disappointed and angry that nothing happened.  >:(

-M
 1. she's at school, as far as I know, and haven't seen her at all today. I'll ask how she's doing when I call her during her lunch.
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Offline Emily

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2012, 10:56:51 AM »
Regarding the video, Nate, I am a bit disturbed at the lack of police investigating it. Unless the sound is drowning out the sirens it seems local authorities are not even looking into it. Also, no news crew either. Didn't you say this made it on the news. What news channel. A lot of new stations have news archives. I'd be interested browsing those archives to see what the news headlines have to say about this.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2012, 11:04:50 AM »
I do believe in demons and demon possession...As myself and my whole family experienced it first hand for almost 7 months..It is not something to be messed around with.
  So, you are from Amityville?  I hear clamis of this and of course see no evidence being presented. 
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.Things can get bad and very dangerous quickly if not handled properly..Demons have abilities beyond what most think unless experienced themselves..They can possess..growl...speak...move things...throw things...and even physically harm you..
Again, evidence.  You sound like you are repeating Hollywood nonsense.
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Try walking out of your kitchen and having knifes come flying at you from all directions but u cant see where they are originating from and your the only one there at the present moment...or having someone be taken over (possessed) by a demon right next to you Black eyes and growling telling you it can kill you and everyone in your house if it wanted to..
No evidence of this has ever been shown to objective observers.  And why don’t these things kill “everyone in the house”?  What is your excuse that these demons do nothing that anyone can actually see who is looking for them and who doesn’t seem to want attention? 
[uote]At that moment there is only 1 answer and that IS GOD there is no one or nothing else who can defeat a demon literally rid you of that demon[/quote] or you are mentally ill or you are lying and none of this is real.   
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I have lived this 1st hand. There are hundreds upon hundreds of people who have gone through this or are going through it some tell some don't..why because narrow minded people judge them and criticize them so they keep quiet. I myself refuse to keep quiet..
Then my dear, evidence please. 
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There are so many people who need to know that they are NOT alone..They are never alone because they have God with them 100% at all times..but that they are not alone in dealing with a demon or a demon possessed person. There are a lot of us out there. As far as evidence goes..these things are coy and sneaky it is not easy to capture "evidence"
nice excuse there. If these were so real and your god was real, why doesn’t it do something to allow others to believe people like you?  Does your god like to see you ridiculed? 
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for instance during this time we were dealing with the demon in our home it possessed a friend of ours her eyes turned completely black and her voice was male not female we recorded it on our digital camera when played back the video was pure black and her voice was normal.
Funny how no one but gullible theists ever see this.  Again, your god sure seems impotent.  Then you go into claiming that demons can mess with things.  Evidence of this?  I’ve had Wicca aquaintances claim that they could affect electronics.  Poor things, when they fail it’s because an “unbeliever” is in the area. 

As for your claims that this god will always see people through, that’s quite a lie, viper.   How many Christians do you think were on the Titanic?  How many Jews do you think were in the concentration camps?  There are too many sad instances where your claims that god will always see you through are shown to be lies.  Pity that you feel you must say such nonsense.
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Offline NATHAN

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2012, 11:21:54 AM »
Regarding the video, Nate, I am a bit disturbed at the lack of police investigating it. Unless the sound is drowning out the sirens it seems local authorities are not even looking into it. Also, no news crew either. Didn't you say this made it on the news. What news channel. A lot of new stations have news archives. I'd be interested browsing those archives to see what the news headlines have to say about this.



You can not refute this

Offline Emily

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2012, 11:30:40 AM »
Look, I don't want to watch a 17 minute long youtube video. You claim these sounds made news headlines. I claim news stations have archives. I asked you to provide what station was covering these sounds so I can browse the archives to see what happened. Can you provide the official headlines and text from the news sources covering these sounds?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Demon Possession
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2012, 11:36:26 AM »
NATHAN, UFO means unidentified flying object, not unidentified sounds. Just because we do not know what the explanation for something is, it doesn't mean that it is UFOs or Jesus or demons or Voldemort or any such nonsense. It just means we don't know what it is. Admittedly the sounds in the video are odd, and I couldn't identify them, but the video also seems likely to be staged. It is like background sound effects. It's like a really horrible Blair Witch type home horror movie. Any additional/more reliable evidence of this phenomenon?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?