Demon Possession

[Timtheskeptic]

So you are willing to accept error to get facts?

(FACEPALM) What error? Are you saying that we should just believe whatever someone tells us? Then i supposed that means we're supposed to just believe that all sorts of spirits from all different cultures exist or that all mythological creatures exists or that all deities exists as well, because they are once believed as well. Nathan, if you want us to see that demon possession exists, you have to provide credible evidence, not youtube videos or andecotes. Eyewitnesses are not good enough evidence for the existence of any deity, demons, or anything that can't be supported with evidence.

[jeremy0]

oh. my. gawd... don't tell me you actually believe in demonic possession...  Yeah, I'd love to tell some doctors about this - we've been doing it all wrong - get the excorcism teams to the hospitals!  These are demons, people!!  (faceplant)

[HAL]

Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

[Timtheskeptic]

Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

But don't you know? They always want to remain hidden, invisible, and sneaky. Just like those darn Kappas and Unicorns in my bedroom. I swear i saw them, but they always get away before i can study them... *sigh* 

[HAL]

Hey I just got a great idea. Seeing as how the Demons are scared of scientists a possessed person should call one instead of a priest!

[Timtheskeptic]

Hey I just got a great idea. Seeing as how the Demons are scared of scientists a possessed person should call one instead of a priest!

I can picture that.

Priest: Out demon! Out in the name of Jesus!
Demon: Blargh! I spit upon you and i'm going to enjoy making people go crazy and throw knives at you!

Scientist: Oh, let's take a closer look at this poor fellow.
Demon: Eek! Scientists! *Scampers out of the body and flees in horror*

[jeremy0]

   

[jeremy0]

Holy Shit!  I have a good idea...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22445.msg501635.html#msg501635

On worldwide 'prayer day', if there really is one now - we should demand that all of these super-religious people pray for god to heal something.  For the sake of not testing god, we can say it has to be something he can handle.  Since demons are in the spirit, and God certainly has absolute power over the spiritual world, we could ask that everyone who is 'demonically possessed' (mentally ill) become perfectly treated or 'exorcised' on that same night. 

Then, we can say in our best Clint Eastwood accent 'Go ahead, make my day...'

After that day, WHEN NOTHING HAPPENS, we can hammer them all as delusional.  (This is my #1 wake-up factor for delusional, paranoid, or people that hear voices or see things - none of your delusions, paranoia, or hallucinations will actually come true - it just won't happen.  Nothing will happen.  It's that simple)  Now if people have any sense of rational thought, something like this would wake them right up from religion.  Otherwise, I could chime in and hypothesise 'well, maybe god has just given up on you people', or 'maybe god just hates people like he did in the old days..' or 'maybe god is imaginary and it's all just a fairy-tale in your head, just like sata claus and the easter bunny..'

[Nick]

Isn't it funny that the Demons never make it into a science or medical lab for observation?

Damn pesky critters.

They also never make it into atheists.  Why is that?

[kaziglu bey]

also never make it into atheists.  Why is that?

Atheists have a natural immunity to bullshit.

[Astreja]

How about the existance of Different dimensions proven by science?  I believe this opens up a whole can of worms for humans as there is more then just us.  These dimensions are hell, shoel, heaven, earth, etc.

Nathan, that's not what science means by "dimensions."  Try thinking in terms of "up," "down," "left," "right," "yesterday" and "tomorrow" -- Not mythological realms.

Now I am really crazy

Quotemined for truth.   

[Anfauglir]

There are plenty of exorcisms on Youtube.  Yes some are real and others are not. 

First question then: how do you tell the difference, if you were not present yourself?  Are there certain aspects of what you call possession that absolutely cannot be faked?

No matter the proof you will not believe what you see unless you experience it yourself.

Fine.  There is a leprechaun under my bed.  Do you believe me?  If not, why not?

It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have......Lord I pray for the hardened hearts and ask you to let them see truth.  Bind the things not of you and release them long enough to make the choice of truth.   

Can we focus on this bit?  You are saying that your god exists, and you are praying that we see the truth.  You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.  Yet time after time, either your god refuses to answer those prayers, or your god is unable to make it happen.

Why should that be?  If your god truly loves us all and wants us to be with him, then surely it would be his primary task to help us see the truth?  Its not even a case of overriding our free will to choose - knowledge of someone's existence does not automatically mean they choose to accept and follow them....but of course you know that, otherwise there would not - could not - be any fallen angels or demons in the first place. 

So the only reason your god would refuse to answer your prayers is either because he doesn't WANT us to find him (in which case, in what way is he loving?), or he doesn't want there to be any clear evidence for his existence.  He wants us to choose him over the tens of thousands of other gods there have ever been without giving any evidence to do so.  In which case you are wasting your prayers......I wonder why your god isn't telling you that?

It has to be a personal experience which you refuse to have......

I refuse nothing.  Explain to me, simply and clearly, how I can have a personal experience with your god.  But I expect two things from that explanation.  Firstly, I want your guarantee that if I follow your words exactly, I will get that personal experience.  And secondly, I want that explanation to be complete when you post it - I have no intention of wasting my time following instructions, only to be told later that "oh, you should have been doing this as well".

Of course, neither should really be necessary: a god who truly loves me and wants me to know him would be blatantly and immediately obvious in my life, the moment I start to look for him.  But - funny thing! - despite several times having sought, despite several times following the careful instructions of the latest Christian to arrive on this site.....nothing happens.  Perhaps you could explain why that is?

Note: Fixed quoting - HAL

[NATHAN]

If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

[NATHAN]

Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Reallly it requires extrodinary evidence.  Wrong, it should only require the same evidence as everything else. 

[One Above All]

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.

[NATHAN]

Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?
[/quote]

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God

[NATHAN]

Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.
[/quote]

Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong. 
Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.  The proof is not in numbers it is the changed lives of millions of people.  Something science refuses to accept. 

Are you nothing more then living dust held together by a serious chemical reactions.  That is what atheist believe.  If you are wrong then you will spend eternity in hell.  If I am wrong a am a worm feast.  Your thoughts are a lot more scare them I. 

See I was one a person that did not believe in God.  Had no desire to know God.  I was a professional making good money in a good place.  One day on a whim I challenged God to show me he was real.  What happen was nothing more then extrodinary and life changing.   This is coming from a former athiest.  I  believed science could not and does not prove God but my personal relationship with him does.  You want proof be a scientist with an open objective and go experience God.  Then make your own conclusions. 

[One Above All]

NATHAN, is your position really so devoid of intellectual honesty and evidence that you must resort to these lies? I'd say I'm disappointed, but I'd be lying.

[Nick]

Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God
[/quote]Man, that might hurt.

[Timtheskeptic]

If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

(Facepalm)

Nathan, can you prove that there isn't a kappa in my room? Can you prove that there wasn't a gnome in my pocket? seriously, you're saying, "Prove there isn't a god" because you refuse to accept the fact thast you made the claim that there's a god. Why can't you just prove that there is a God? Proving that something doesn't exist cannot happen because we're not the one who made the claim. Can you prove there isn't Odin or Zeus?

[NATHAN]

Can we focus on this bit?  You are saying that your god exists, and you are praying that we see the truth.  You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.  Yet time after time, either your god refuses to answer those prayers, or your god is unable to make it happen.

You need to understand that God when you have a hardened heart and refuse to draw near to God he will not Draw near to you. He is able to all things. 

Why should that be?  If your god truly loves us all and wants us to be with him, then surely it would be his primary task to help us see the truth?  Its not even a case of overriding our free will to choose - knowledge of someone's existence does not automatically mean they choose to accept and follow them....but of course you know that, otherwise there would not - could not - be any fallen angels or demons in the first place.

 

God does truly love you.  But we need to accept God's grace and acknowledge Him as lord and savior.  Would you say that mankind naturally wants to live for anything other then mankind?  I say the answer is no we want to live for ourselves.  If we live for ourselves without morals then we have chaos.  We see this through history with the fall of the Roman Empire, nazi germany. 

If you do not believe in God then you are a meer animal.  As such murdering another human with malice in your heart must be ok becuase that happens in natural animal kingdom.  survival of the fittest. 

Where did social opinions come from? God.  Where has our laws in the US? Heavily influenced by the bible. 

Everyone knows that murder is wrong becuase we have moral law wired into our being. 

God's existance is real and requires acknowledge.  once you acknowledge God's existance he begins to show more and more of his love. 

Example:  4 years ago a missionary was laid on my heart.  I began to pray as the Lord lead me to pray for healing.  I called her and let her know I was praying for healing over her body.  She said nothing is wrong.  three months later she was in NY and asked to see me.  She began to explain that when she was on th Wind River Reservation she became ill.  She had an anurism in her spleen.  instead of bursting a small blood clot plugged it and the anurism did not burst. 

I have her testimony of God's goodness and love.  And no I am not posting private medical information. 

So the only reason your god would refuse to answer your prayers is either because he doesn't WANT us to find him (in which case, in what way is he loving?), or he doesn't want there to be any clear evidence for his existence.  He wants us to choose him over the tens of thousands of other gods there have ever been without giving any evidence to do so.  In which case you are wasting your prayers......I wonder why your god isn't telling you that?

[qu

[NATHAN]

For proof:
Would you take their description of their astral battles?
Would you accept that they have studied spell books?
Would you accept they talked about the tales of spell users historically across the globe?
Would you accept some sort of linguistic slight of hand?
Would you accept that their magic works in mysterious ways?
Would you accept that you can't prove they aren't a wizard?

If you wouldn't accept these arguments....don't use their equivalent on us!
[/quote] 

I believe in wizards and Pagan people casting spells and astral battles.  Their magic does work but not for etenal life.  The difference between Jesus and the other God is Jesus is the only one trying to bring you into heaven while othre other religions try to bring their god to earth to serve them. 

[Nick]

Nathan, I hope you and your Sky Daddy are happy.  I for one need more than your ramblings for acceptance of some kind of super being.  I believe we are nothing more than animal.  One with a bigger brain than the others but animal non the less.  I make the most of this life.  You live for the next.

Just out of curiosity...why did you come here and what do you hope to gain?

[Cadillac]

Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong. 

Sorry, not true. Good science tries to prove good hypotheses, not just any hypothesis. The hypothesis that something doesn't exist can only serve as a null hypothesis^Wiki, and a null hypothesis can never be proven. Stamp it on your forhead! Jeez!

[Hatter23]

If you're unwilling to provide evidence, then why should we take you seriously?

Prove there is no god and I will take you seriously

Prove there are no flying shoes when I am asleep and there are no recording devices present and I will take you seriously

[Hatter23]

I believe in wizards and Pagan people casting spells and astral battles.  Their magic does work.

So you believe in every claim, or do you have some standard to distinguish reality from fantasy/fable/lies?

[Timtheskeptic]

Courts deal with naturally occurring events that don't require extraordinary evidence.

Unfortunately demons require extraordinary evidence and you have failed to provide any evidence meeting that threshold.

Reallly it requires extrodinary evidence.  Wrong, it should only require the same evidence as everything else. 

Oh really? How about providing evidence instead of dodging it with the "prove it doesn't" nonsense.

Yes. Have you plucked out your eyes and cut off your ears because you have mishear or misseen something?

The same thing you have done to God's word and the existance of God
[/quote]

(Facepalm)

You are not answering their question. Also, you made the claim that your God exists, you're the one who has to prove it. All you did was go "Prove that he doesn't exist." You even ignored me when i asked you some questions.

Proof of non-existence is impossible.
You are the one making the positive claim. You need to show the evidence.

Wrong again.  Good science tries to prove a Hypothesis.  Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong.  [/quote]

many people have ad believed that the earth was flat. They were wrong when evidence is proved that the earth was a sphere. There are many people who thought homosexuality was mental illness. medical association proves that they are not mental illness. Many people thought that the sun is revolving around the earth it's the earth that orbits around the sun. There was little to no knowledge in the past, they had no knowledge that we have todasy. Also, it's a fallacy, amount of people believing in something doesn't mean they're right.

Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.  The proof is not in numbers it is the changed lives of millions of people.  Something science refuses to accept. 

Science refuses to accept it? Oh horse! Testimonies are not good enough evidence because people are not infallible. People make mistakes in what they witness, people makes up stuff, and people even changes what other people say they witness. The bible has been changed and altered through translation, misinterpretation, and there are people who changed the words, added or removed some of the things in it. Science does not "refuse" because if there is nothing to prove something is real and cannot be tested, then it's useless.

Are you nothing more then living dust held together by a serious chemical reactions.  That is what atheist believe.  If you are wrong then you will spend eternity in hell.  If I am wrong a am a worm feast.  Your thoughts are a lot more scare them I.

Ah, first, you proclaim that you know what an atheist believes. Sorry, but you're full of it. An atheist simply doesn't believe in existence of a God. And you decided to use pascal's wager, which isn't something new. You weren't the first person to use it, but you won't be the last. Seriously, the pascal's wager is completely faulty because there are thousands of gods, and different denominations of christianity. the chance of being in the right religion is like 0.001% 

See I was one a person that did not believe in God.  Had no desire to know God.  I was a professional making good money in a good place.  One day on a whim I challenged God to show me he was real.  What happen was nothing more then extrodinary and life changing.   This is coming from a former athiest.  I  believed science could not and does not prove God but my personal relationship with him does.  You want proof be a scientist with an open objective and go experience God.  Then make your own conclusions. 

(Facepalm)

So you're saing that personal experience is good enough reason to believe? You say you're a "former atheist" i don't buy that. You said that you challenged god and believed. We challenged God, i've challenged god more than one occasion and nothing happened. If you say, "Oh he responded but you're just so blind and ignorant" then i supposed i'm more powerful than your God.

[Historicity]

Millions of people have experienced God so we are all wrong.  Test after test after test= testimony after testimony of who God is and has done for people.

CORRECTION:  Billions of people have experienced a bunch of Gods.  Their experiences do not home in on a single hypothesis.

In science increasing evidence does increasingly narrow the hypotheses.  The God experience does not do that.

The Dervishes and Sufis experience an Islamic God.  There are plenty of gurus and mystics in India who experience the Hindu Gods.   The Buddhists testify to enlightenment that gets past any God.

[Timtheskeptic]

You need to understand that God when you have a hardened heart and refuse to draw near to God he will not Draw near to you. He is able to all things. 

oh so if we could hardened our heart, then we're more stronger than your God? I thought he was all powerful. What, he can't just come out and say, "Here i am, i exist." No, you rather we just believe without evidence. How about you try believing in Odin? Why do you harden your heart against him? You won't be going to Valhalla, you'll be punished.

God does truly love you.  But we need to accept God's grace and acknowledge Him as lord and savior.  Would you say that mankind naturally wants to live for anything other then mankind?  I say the answer is no we want to live for ourselves.  If we live for ourselves without morals then we have chaos.  We see this through history with the fall of the Roman Empire, nazi germany. 

By morals, you mean your biblical morality? If you hadn't noticed, the bible is full of nasty rules about how to own slaves, that women should be oppressed and silent, that people who works on a sabbath should be stoned to death and more. Sweden is very peaceful and it has fewer religious believers there.

If you do not believe in God then you are a meer animal.  As such murdering another human with malice in your heart must be ok becuase that happens in natural animal kingdom.  survival of the fittest. 

Oh wow. Hadn't you noticed that your bible is the reason people were killing one another? I don't want to kill anyone and i hadn't. No one wants to die and i don't want to die. We've survived for thousands of years by co-existing with each other. We're social species, we're not mindless animals.

Where did social opinions come from? God.  Where has our laws in the US? Heavily influenced by the bible.

The bible isn't in the constitution, it's not in the bill of rights. Sorry, but you're wrong. The one that focuses on using the religious text as law, would be the Middle East and it's looking very ugly right now. So much for moral standards. We're good because we want to be good, we're social creatures who can love one another. I don't need a god to know that. 

Everyone knows that murder is wrong becuase we have moral law wired into our being. 

God's existance is real and requires acknowledge.  once you acknowledge God's existance he begins to show more and more of his love. 

Knowledge? I thought it was just about accepting upon blind faith. I'm sorry, but because of knowledge, i see no evidence for the existence of God and the Bible is not a good source for proving that your God exist.

Example:  4 years ago a missionary was laid on my heart.  I began to pray as the Lord lead me to pray for healing.  I called her and let her know I was praying for healing over her body.  She said nothing is wrong.  three months later she was in NY and asked to see me.  She began to explain that when she was on th Wind River Reservation she became ill.  She had an anurism in her spleen.  instead of bursting a small blood clot plugged it and the anurism did not burst. 

I have her testimony of God's goodness and love.  And no I am not posting private medical information. 

If that were to be true, then why hadn't your God helped all the victims of rape, child molestation, or those being abused by their spouse? If he cared so much about that woman, then surely he should helped those who suffered. But no, it's because they're all "sinners" and that they didn't "believe with all their heart" so they deserved it for "turning their back on God" but hey, God is loving. God is loving and he needs money. (RIP George Carlin)