Author Topic: "Disproving god"  (Read 1924 times)

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Offline Samuelxcs

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"Disproving god"
« on: April 23, 2012, 11:13:08 AM »
Funny story about god.

"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline Poseidon

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 11:59:53 PM »
That scruffy bastard makes perfect sense in the most obscene possible way.  I dont think that he will persuade many xtians despite his valid argument.

Offline jeremy0

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 12:50:17 AM »
I concur.  We must overcome our own anger and frustrations towards theists if we want to accomplish our objectives in a more fashionable way and at a much faster pace..

In my experience, to answer 'like threads', I never fit into any of their groups.  As atheists, we don't fit into their groups.  So we tend to look like the following:

Because they are all (at least the Christians) thinking - "The devil's cleverest ploy is to persuade you he doesn't exist." - Charles Baudelaire.



If we want to spread the word better, and transition to a society that is based on evolutionary and agreed-upon morality vs. religious morality, if there is a sense of that, then we would be better suited to appear to them as the following, which is more appealing:








I think you can see my point...  love and truth and love of truth..
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2012, 07:40:06 AM »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Zankuu

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2012, 08:16:39 AM »
^ Very, very nice.

Edit: You know joe, a WWGHA member version of that would be pretty cool!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 08:23:49 AM by Zankuu »
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Death over Life

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 10:32:35 PM »
I will not only agree, but I kind of want to do a version of my own if I were able to. Who all were in there btw?

I saw Bill Maher, Albert Einstein, Steven Hawking, Mark Twain, and one of the Beatles members, but that's about it. One of the guys looked like Ron Paul though. I assume everybody would know my company of people in Hell lol.








Offline jeremy0

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2012, 03:13:23 PM »
^^ none of these guys are going to hell!  WTF???  ;D
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2012, 04:29:58 PM »
Funny story about god.


hehe is this moon cult have anything to do with Mormonism.....cuz more and more crazy fuckers are signing up for it
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Offline Death over Life

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2012, 08:08:56 PM »
^^ none of these guys are going to hell!  WTF???  ;D

You are right … because they are ALREADY in Hell! Unlike guys like Maher and Hawking who still have a chance to “repent” these people are 100% burning as we speak! :D

As such because they are bonafide and not possibly able to be redeemed, they portray a much more accurate picture of the quote Fear not Hell, for if it exists, you will be in good company.

Offline zach311

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2012, 09:18:18 PM »
A few observations after watching this video:

First, the guy says there is no evidence for God. It would be nice if he elaborated more on this as it seems to me as though there is plenty of evidence for God. However, I’m sure some people will never be convinced no matter how much evidence is presented. Additionally, when presented with evidence several people I know have dismissed it without even considering it.

Secondly, he makes a point that he’s never seen Heaven and implies that is why he doesn’t believe in God. It is possible that the guy has never been to a foreign country before, let’s say Japan. If you were to ask him if he believes in a place called Japan he would probably say yes. He has never been there, but he is trusting the reports of others, such as those who make maps. He has never seen the country, he only can go by what others have told him. I realize the comparison is not perfect but hopefully you get the point.

Finally, he has a very misconstrued view of God. The Bible does not say that God created hell. I don’t believe that God created anything evil or bad, but that is another topic for another discussion.

Offline lomolo

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2012, 10:27:57 PM »
A few observations after watching this video:

First, the guy says there is no evidence for God. It would be nice if he elaborated more on this as it seems to me as though there is plenty of evidence for God. However, I’m sure some people will never be convinced no matter how much evidence is presented. Additionally, when presented with evidence several people I know have dismissed it without even considering it.
The whole point of the video is that there isn't any proof for God. Do you have any?

Keep in mind that personal anecdotes don't count as proof. You may have seen the very face of God and heard His holy voice but that doesn't count as proof to anyone else. That's what the moon god is supposed to represent - something that nobody has ever seen but people still believe in because they "feel" its presence. Or moonbeams, or whatever.

Quote
Secondly, he makes a point that he’s never seen Heaven and implies that is why he doesn’t believe in God. It is possible that the guy has never been to a foreign country before, let’s say Japan. If you were to ask him if he believes in a place called Japan he would probably say yes. He has never been there, but he is trusting the reports of others, such as those who make maps. He has never seen the country, he only can go by what others have told him. I realize the comparison is not perfect but hopefully you get the point.

I hate this argument. It's so stupid. Japan is a place you can go to. If you want to, you can verify Japan's existence. Can the same be said for your God?

We accept electrons exist. We can run tests that give overwhelming evidence that they do. Can you run tests to prove God exists? We can run tests that pretty well show biblegod isn't real, or at least is a liar, but we've yet to see one that can prove he exists.

Quote
Finally, he has a very misconstrued view of God. The Bible does not say that God created hell. I don’t believe that God created anything evil or bad, but that is another topic for another discussion.

If he allows evil then he is either evil or impotent.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2012, 10:58:31 PM »
First, the guy says there is no evidence for God. It would be nice if he elaborated more on this as it seems to me as though there is plenty of evidence for God.

It depends on what you accept as evidence.  If you accept the bible, then yes, there is evidence for God.  If you accept the Quran, then yes, there is evidence for Allah.  If you accept the Torah... well, you get the point. 

But what the atheist community talks about here is the real world evidence for God.  And for that, we differ in terms of what constitutes 'evidence'.  You might say, "look at everything around you, how can you deny that all of this was created by God!" and believe that you've provided evidence.  To someone who does no accept your version of god, however, your claim is equally as flawed as the man who says "look at everything around you, how can you deny that Allah is great!". 

However, I’m sure some people will never be convinced no matter how much evidence is presented.

Yes, Christians are like that.  There's almost nothing we can do about it.  We try hard, but faith can be an insurmountable barrier.  As an agnostic atheist who is very, VERY sure the Christian God is not real, but only moderately sure that there is no form of god at all, I have no such problem, as I am not tied down by faith.  For someone who has devoted their life to believing in the Christian nonsense, it can be a nightmare just to consider they might be wrong.  They often think that believing in God is a great thing, so no matter what evidence you bring against it, you can't get past that.  Very frustrating.  Religious faith is such an awful thing. 

Additionally, when presented with evidence several people I know have dismissed it without even considering it.

Can you present your evidence so that we may consider it then?  And please be aware... considering your evidence is not the same as accepting it as proof of what you are claiming. 

Secondly, he makes a point that he’s never seen Heaven and implies that is why he doesn’t believe in God.

There is no evidence of Heaven, zach.  None.  Zero.  Zilch.  There is exactly the same amount of evidence for Heaven that there is for Valhalla.  While this fact is not enough on it's own to form the opinion that God is not real, it is one fact among millions of facts that when compiled DOES allow for a reasonable doubt conclusion that the God of the bible is false. 

It is possible that the guy has never been to a foreign country before, let’s say Japan. If you were to ask him if he believes in a place called Japan he would probably say yes. He has never been there, but he is trusting the reports of others, such as those who make maps. He has never seen the country, he only can go by what others have told him. I realize the comparison is not perfect but hopefully you get the point.

If you are going to give a flawed comparison, then don't expect people to be swayed by it.  You are right in that it's flawed.  It's flawed for many reasons, most notably that we know land exists and we know other countries exist.  Most of us have seen people from other countries. 

Can you point to heaven on a map?  Or a place similar to heaven?  How about a place near heaven?  Can you show me someone who's been to heaven or came from heaven?  And please don't say the bible here because it's just not useful and you know it.  If you're going to do that, then I am going to point to the Harry Potter books as evidence for Hogwarts castle.

Finally, he has a very misconstrued view of God.

Did you ever stop to consider that maybe it's you with the misconstrued view?  That maybe the God you WISH were true is the one you believe in?  After all, you just said you don't believe God created evil or bad things... why?  Because it doesn't fit with the vision of God you wish were true, or because you have actual evidence that God didn't do it?  I'm going to guess the former. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2012, 06:54:47 AM »
I will not only agree, but I kind of want to do a version of my own if I were able to. I assume everybody would know my company of people in Hell lol.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2012, 09:43:51 AM »
Finally, he has a very misconstrued view of God. The Bible does not say that God created hell. I don’t believe that God created anything evil or bad, but that is another topic for another discussion.

If you believe in an omnipotent creator, then you cannot escape the logical conclusion that he either created hell (along with evil) or that he created something (Satan?) that then created hell and evil, and that he allows these things to exist. So in order for your assertion here to be true, Zach, you either have to admit that your god is not all-powerful or that he is complicit in evil. Tough choice.

Can you point to heaven on a map?  Or a place similar to heaven?  How about a place near heaven?  Can you show me someone who's been to heaven or came from heaven?  And please don't say the bible here because it's just not useful and you know it.  If you're going to do that, then I am going to point to the Harry Potter books as evidence for Hogwarts castle.

Actually, Jeff, Hogwarts castle does exist. Its in Orlando.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2012, 09:53:01 AM »
First, the guy says there is no evidence for God. It would be nice if he elaborated more on this as it seems to me as though there is plenty of evidence for God. However, I’m sure some people will never be convinced no matter how much evidence is presented. Additionally, when presented with evidence several people I know have dismissed it without even considering it.
The problem is, your evidence for God must first be shown to unambiguously point to God, else Occam's razor suggests that "God" is not the correct explanation (as God requires a tremendous number of implicit assumptions).

Quote from: zach311
Secondly, he makes a point that he’s never seen Heaven and implies that is why he doesn’t believe in God. It is possible that the guy has never been to a foreign country before, let’s say Japan. If you were to ask him if he believes in a place called Japan he would probably say yes. He has never been there, but he is trusting the reports of others, such as those who make maps. He has never seen the country, he only can go by what others have told him. I realize the comparison is not perfect but hopefully you get the point.
No, it's not a valid comparison, because it's possible to go to Japan and come back from it, and bring souvenirs to prove that you went there.  Try doing so with Heaven sometime.

Quote from: zach311
Finally, he has a very misconstrued view of God. The Bible does not say that God created hell. I don’t believe that God created anything evil or bad, but that is another topic for another discussion.
Omnipotence and omniscience contradict your belief.  An all-powerful, all-knowing being would not have to accept that countless humans go to hell for no crime other than not believing in the correct religion.

Offline PhilosoB

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2012, 11:05:51 PM »
Additionally, when presented with evidence several people I know have dismissed it without even considering it.

Can you present your evidence so that we may consider it then?  And please be aware... considering your evidence is not the same as accepting it as proof of what you are claiming. 


There are few lines of evidence (or, if I may use, arguments) that provide some support for the existence of God: historical, moral, cosmological, teleological, ontological. Of course, each argument varies in strength and degree of confidence but, nonetheless, each one provides some grounds for God's existence, even if you believe such ground to be weak. Taken together in a comprehensive view of reality, one would appear to have complex foundation for believing in God, and specifically, the Christian God. I am open to exploring and/or debating whichever line of argumentation you (or anyone) would like as best I can. Just a reminder to all responders: I am but one person and, somewhat ironically, do work tomorrow.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2012, 11:26:17 PM »
PhilosoB, are you somewhat more inclined to stick around this time or are you only going to be good for another seven posts or so until your next return in January '13?

You put a lot of energy into those seven posts last October and then disappeared. If we try to avoid overwhelming you, will you be somewhat more inclined to stay longer this time?

I'm not asking for me. I know so little about the bible that it may as well not even exist. But others here are a bit more knowledgable and if they are going to take the time to get into a discussion with you, it would be nice to know how long you intend to stay.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 11:28:01 PM »
Wow, PhilosoB, I just read all your previous posts. Very well written and presented.

Hope to see more of you here.
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Offline PhilosoB

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2012, 11:38:13 PM »
PhilosoB, are you somewhat more inclined to stick around this time or are you only going to be good for another seven posts or so until your next return in January '13?

You put a lot of energy into those seven posts last October and then disappeared. If we try to avoid overwhelming you, will you be somewhat more inclined to stay longer this time?

I'm not asking for me. I know so little about the bible that it may as well not even exist. But others here are a bit more knowledgable and if they are going to take the time to get into a discussion with you, it would be nice to know how long you intend to stay.

I will do my best to hang around. I look forward to meaningful conversation (that is, conversation that consists of honest thoughts and arguments. Snide remarks and baseless conjecture is not particularly engaging). I try to post well written, clear and honest arguments and simply appreciate reciprocity in this regard. Thanks for having me.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 11:45:30 PM »
Perhaps it would be wise for you to start a new thread rather than using this one. You could either cut and paste the first post you had here, or reword it, or choose a specific topic from amongst those you have already suggested.
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Offline Death over Life

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2012, 12:21:42 AM »
I will not only agree, but I kind of want to do a version of my own if I were able to. I assume everybody would know my company of people in Hell lol.
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Nope, just some prized pictures of said people! :D

Taken together in a comprehensive view of reality, one would appear to have complex foundation for believing in God, and specifically, the Christian God. I am open to exploring and/or debating whichever line of argumentation you (or anyone) would like as best I can. Just a reminder to all responders: I am but one person and, somewhat ironically, do work tomorrow.

I will definately look forward to seeing your comprehensive view of reality and the evidence behind it as it took me completely away from believing in God, and if there were such a god, it was guaranteed beyond the shadow of a doubt NOT the Christian God, nor any of the Monotheistic Gods. I work tomorrow as well. Since you are a theist, make sure they won't stone you for working on the Sabbath!  ;)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 06:00:48 AM »
Wow, PhilosoB, I just read all your previous posts. Very well written and presented.

Hope to see more of you here.

What MM said.

I was very disappointed to see you leave last time, although I can absolutely understand why you did because I've been thru a similar phenomenon myself when trying to visit pro-theist forums.  If you do stick around this time, you might do better by offering a debate challenge instead -- that way, you will have only one person to respond to, instead of eight or ten.
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Offline zach311

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2012, 05:01:29 PM »
Ok, so let me explain the thing with Japan better because I did not state that as clearly as I should have. What I was trying to say is imagine that for some reason someone was completely unable to physically travel to Japan. Because of this, he had made up his mind that Japan must not be real because although he’s heard about it, there’s no way for him to physically travel there and verify it. His parents could go to Japan on vacation and say, “We had a great time and brought you back this shirt as a gift.” However, he would just dismiss it and think they had been deceived and the shirt really wasn’t from Japan. He could have his best friend go to Japan and study four years at college and then have the friend come back and tell him all about his experience. However, the guy wouldn’t believe that either and think that just because he hadn’t seen his friend for four years doesn’t mean that he really went to Japan. The guy could go to Google maps and see where Japan is but would probably think Google was in on the conspiracy as well.
I could go on, but the point I’m making is that if someone has already made up his mind about something, no amount of evidence is going to convince him otherwise. At some point you have to have faith either for something or against something.
People don’t require someone to know all the answers about something to believe in it (such as the example whether or not Japan is real) but for some reason this very rigid standard gets applied to religion. People are not willing to believe in God without absolute confidence and without knowing every single detail although no one uses this line of reasoning for other matters. Again, I think this goes back to if someone’s mind is already made up that there is no God and the person isn’t even willing to consider another view then no amount of evidence will ever change that person’s mind.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2012, 05:46:08 PM »
zach311:  The analogy is still not valid.  Even if I accept that this person is completely unable to ever go to Japan for any reason, other people can, and can return from it.  His decision that Japan does not exist is purely subjective and cannot be proven; indeed, it can be objectively proven many times over by everyone who has ever been to Japan and returned from it.

But nobody, not one single person, has ever traveled to heaven, let alone returned from it.  This is not a matter of someone or a few people being stubborn by not believing in the existence of a place that can be objectively shown to exist.  This is a matter of many people believing in the existence of a place that cannot be objectively shown to exist, and never being able to provide evidence of its actual existence.  It is a purely subjective belief, an opinion.  If there were real evidence that proved the existence of a place called "heaven" or a being called "God", then people could use that evidence to convince others.  The problem is, there is not any and never has been any.  Just subjective opinions.

Offline zach311

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2012, 06:13:04 PM »
Jaimehlers, I understand what you are saying and appreciate your reply. Again, what I’m saying is that like you said someone could go to Japan and that would answer the question in that person’s mind. But no matter how many people go there and verify its existence, to the first person in the story he is still never going to believe it.
Similarly, no matter how many people tell someone of how God spoke to them, how God answered prayer, what type of spiritual experience they had, etc. etc. none of that will make sense to him and he won’t believe it. I think the analogy is valid in the sense that the people who believe in God have “traveled to Japan” so to speak and their minds are made up. However, until someone goes there himself he won’t believe. At that point, that is where faith comes in. To my knowledge there is no way to absolutely, without a doubt prove that God does not exist so the question comes down to “What are you putting your faith in?” I don’t think evidence alone can convince someone 100% one way or the other so that is where faith comes in.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2012, 06:31:14 PM »
Jaimehlers, I understand what you are saying and appreciate your reply. Again, what I’m saying is that like you said someone could go to Japan and that would answer the question in that person’s mind. But no matter how many people go there and verify its existence, to the first person in the story he is still never going to believe it.
Similarly, no matter how many people tell someone of how God spoke to them, how God answered prayer, what type of spiritual experience they had, etc. etc. none of that will make sense to him and he won’t believe it. I think the analogy is valid in the sense that the people who believe in God have “traveled to Japan” so to speak and their minds are made up. However, until someone goes there himself he won’t believe. At that point, that is where faith comes in. To my knowledge there is no way to absolutely, without a doubt prove that God does not exist so the question comes down to “What are you putting your faith in?” I don’t think evidence alone can convince someone 100% one way or the other so that is where faith comes in.

zach, do you want to know what levels the playing field though?  Its the fact that LOTS of people in LOTS of different religions OTHER than yours will say the exact same types of things about the gods that they believe in.  So what are we, as thinking people, supposed to assume here?  Be serious now.  What are we to think about it?  Is it that ONE small subset of you have it right and EVERYONE else is completely delusional, or given the fact that none of you have any real evidence, that ALL of you are suffering from the same delusion?  The latter is far more likely. 

If you are going to accept personal testimony as valid in terms of supernatural entities, then you are being hypocritical in saying that the personal testimonies of people who have experiences YOUR God are valid evidence, yet personal testimonies from others are not.  Do you see that?  Do you see how your (or any other persons) personal testimony is not, nor SHOULD IT BE good enough to convince anyone. 

Faith is all that's left when you realize there is no evidence to be found, and it is an utterly ridiculous reason to believe anything at all.  You must know that, right? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Ivellios

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 09:47:43 PM »
To also mention: If you want us to accept your personal testimony/experience as valid proof of your god, then you must accept the personal testimonies/experiences of all other people regarding, including but not limited to: Ishtar, Baal, Zeus, Zetas, Reptillians, Ghosts, Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, Allah, Nirvanah, etc.

You see, that's why we ask for actual proof that can be documented, detected, and tested outside of your brain.

Otherwise you're no different than someone who hallucinates, hears voices, or simply has an overactive imagination.

Offline screwtape

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2012, 08:14:54 AM »
However, until someone goes there himself he won’t believe. At that point, that is where faith comes in.

I suspect you are misusing the word "faith".  What do you mean by "faith" in the context quoted above?

To my knowledge there is no way to absolutely, without a doubt prove that God does not exist so the question comes down to “What are you putting your faith in?”

the same is true of any other god.  Or mermaids.  Or vampires.  Or Sasquatch.

I addresse the whole "Can't Prove It Doesn't" claim here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20148.msg444285.html#msg444285
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

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Re: "Disproving god"
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2012, 09:20:46 AM »
Jaimehlers, I understand what you are saying and appreciate your reply.
The problem is, you don't really understand, as your reply shows.

Quote from: zach311
Again, what I’m saying is that like you said someone could go to Japan and that would answer the question in that person’s mind. But no matter how many people go there and verify its existence, to the first person in the story he is still never going to believe it.
It is irrelevant whether or not he believes it to be true, Japan can objectively be proven to exist beyond any reasonable doubt.  It does not depend on a purely subjective belief that cannot be independently tested.  To put it another way, the existence of Japan does not depend on a person's subjective belief that it does or does not exist.

Quote from: zach311
Similarly, no matter how many people tell someone of how God spoke to them, how God answered prayer, what type of spiritual experience they had, etc. etc. none of that will make sense to him and he won’t believe it.
It's not similar at all.  All of those things are purely and completely subjective.  They depend not on verifiable facts, but on personal opinions and beliefs.  It is impossible for a person to provide evidence to unambiguously show that God spoke to them, that God answered their prayers, or of having a spiritual experience, because all of those things are purely subjective.  How does someone prove that it was not their own mind making up the speech from God?  How does someone prove that their prayer actually did anything, that it was not instead random chance and coincidence?  How does someone prove that they had a spiritual experience and not a convoluted daydream?

Quote from: zach311
I think the analogy is valid in the sense that the people who believe in God have “traveled to Japan” so to speak and their minds are made up. However, until someone goes there himself he won’t believe. At that point, that is where faith comes in. To my knowledge there is no way to absolutely, without a doubt prove that God does not exist so the question comes down to “What are you putting your faith in?” I don’t think evidence alone can convince someone 100% one way or the other so that is where faith comes in.
No, it is completely invalid.  First off, people who believe in God have traveled nowhere.  They have personal, subjective experiences that lead them to believe that God exists.  These are not experiences they can reproduce for other people, they can only share them as the equivalent of stories.

As using Japan - a place that really exists, can really be traveled to and returned from, and can objectively be proven to exist by any measure - as an analogy for heaven is kind of ridiculous, let me pick a different location.  Say, the planet Vulcan, with Spock and his pointy-eared kin.  Now, the thing is, it's impossible to actually travel to Vulcan in a physical sense, because it isn't a physical place to begin with.  Therefore, it works far better as an analogy for heaven.  Especially when you add in the other things.  A person who believes that Vulcan exists can probably stretch that to believing Spock exists, and that he can have conversations with Spock.  Spock can answer his questions, give him advice, perhaps even influence events here to favor the person (after all, if he can speak and be heard all the way from Vulcan, then perhaps he can do other things at a distance too).  And the person can also have experiences of Vulcan as if he were actually there.  But he can't actually go there no matter how much he wants to or how hard he tries, unless Spock brings him there, and once he goes, he's there to stay, it's a one-way trip.

Now, you tell me, which works better as an analogy for heaven, Japan or Vulcan?  For the sake of argument, we'll presume that Vulcan is a place that exists, but it's not a place you or anyone can go to under your own power.