Author Topic: Problematic Prophesy  (Read 1773 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Problematic Prophesy
« on: April 23, 2012, 10:54:25 AM »
Believe it or not, many, if not most Christian believers have no idea that there are problems with their faith or the Bible which their faith is derived from. For most of their lives they have simply taken for granted that it is God's inspired book and all of its contents are true, based in fact, and that it is profitable for teaching, for correcting, for setting things straight, and for providing righteous discipline as 2 Timothy 3:16 claims. With this belief firmly planted in mind, even logical absurdities like talking snakes, talking donkeys, a Red Sea parting, an immaculate conception, an omnipotent and perfect God creating an imperfect world, and even a God that is often a proponent of what can best be described a genocide can be rationalized because of this understanding and the expectation that ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER for a good that will ultimately come from this god to them that love Him. 

How do you communicate the flaws in the Christian faith to people that subscribe to this line of thinking? For some, no amount of communication, rational discussion, or thoughtful insight will do a damn bit of good, but for those that truly value truth and righteousness, there is perhaps an approach that can yield a reward. I believe the approach that would likely lead to the most changes of heart is the approach that allows the believer to see for themselves how the Bible they believe they base their beliefs on tears itself apart from the inside out.

I have begam this approach with some preacher friends of mine and it has really got a couple of them thinking. The way I have approached it is to attack the prophesy they believe is the most powerful reason why people should believe the Bible has veracity.

There are many failed or flawed prophecies to choose from, so with that in mind, I wish to solicit as well as share some of those prophecies. What do you guys have?

Offline rev45

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 11:03:50 AM »
The destruction of Tyre.  Yes this is Yahoo Answers but it appears to do a good job of covering most of the issues.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091214050238AAcXEU6
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 11:19:22 AM »
the "messiah" was to rebuilt the temple, be respected by world leaders, evidently have children, etc, all while alive and no "resurrection" needed to excuse why this "jesus christ" failed.   this group, jews for judaism have done a good job listing all of the problems with this messiah here: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=374:messiah-the-criteria&catid=68:the-jewish-messiah&Itemid=481
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 11:37:57 AM »
I try to come at them in a way that sort of beats them at their own game of scripture quoting. One of the ones that jumps out to me is found in Matthew 26:31 where Jesus himself claims fulfilled prophesy. In context it reads:

Quote
Then, as they ate, Jesus took a loaf, and after giving thanks, broke it and gave it to the disciples saying: 'Take some and eat it, because this is my body.' He also took a cup [of wine], and after giving thanks, gave it to them saying, 'All of you drink from it, 28 because this is my blood of the New Sacred Agreement, which will be poured out for many to forgive [their] sins. But I tell you that I definitely won't drink of this product of the vine anymore, until that day when I will drink it new with you in the Kingdom of my Father.'

 Finally, after singing songs of praise, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

 [It was there that] Jesus said to them: 'All of you will be stumbled [by what will happen to] me tonight, because it's written: I will beat the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.

After the Passover meal, Jesus and his 12 go to the Mt. of Olives and there Jesus tells them that they will be made to stumble because of him that night, because it was written in Zechariah 13:7 the following;

Quote
'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

Shall we read Zechariah 13:1 -14:3 to see if the text Matthew claims Jesus appealed to actually has anything prophetic about the Messiah's last days?

Quote
'In that Day, all [springs] will then open wide, for the rinsing and cleansing of David's house, and for those who live in JeruSalem. And in that Day it will be,' says Jehovah of Armies; 'The names of their idols I'll wipe from the land, so they'll be remembered no more. And I will remove from the land, the false prophets with their unclean spirits.
'And if there's a man who still prophecies; his father and the mother who bore him, must tell him that he may no longer live! For, he has told lies in the Name of the Lord. Then his father and the mother who bore him, will tie him up, because he prophesied. And it will be in that Day, that their visions will bring them disgrace, as will the things that they prophesied. They'll cover their heads with animal hides, because they will know that they've lied. And they'll say, I'm not a prophet; I'm just a man who works the ground… this is all that I've done since my youth!

'And then I will ask, So, what are these wounds in your hands?

'And they will reply, They were struck in the homes of our loved ones.

 'O broadsword, awaken against [such] a man, and against the shepherds [who live in] My land,' says Jehovah the Almighty. 'Strike the shepherds and scatter the sheep… against the shepherds I'll bring My hand.
'And in that Day,' says Jehovah; 'two-thirds will be wiped out and gone, but a third will still remain. Then I'll try them as [you] try gold. But, they will call on My Name. Then I will say, You're My people, and they will say, Jehovah's our God.'

'Look; The Lord's [Great] Day now approaches, when spoils will be divided among them. To JeruSalem I'll gather all nations, and the city will be captured thereafter. All the homes will be looted, and all the women will be raped. Then half of the city will be led away, and the rest (those who are My people), will not be destroyed from the [land]. Then the Lord will attack all those nations, in His battle on the Day of the war.

So, according to Matthew 26:31, Jesus told his disciples that they would be shaken and scattered because it was prophesied that God will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered. Interesting considering the fact that according to Zechariah the shepherds (plural) that would be struck by God were lumped in as it pertains to the punishment from God, with the false prophets spoken of previously in Zechariah 13. These were people God is said to have comtempt for and were being held responsible for misleading God's chosen sheep, I mean people. How in the world is this in any way, shape, or form a prophesy foretelling the plight of the Jewish Messiah and his disciples?
It appears that the writer of Matthew either misquoted Jesus in hopes of duping the unstudied Jews that he wrote to into believing Jesus fulfilled a prophesy about him that was not in fact about him, or Matthew's writer correctly quoted Jesus and it was Jesus that was doing the duping. Either way, it's not a good look for the Bible.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 12:28:58 PM »
Believe it or not, many, if not most Christian believers have no idea that there are problems with their faith...

What do you mean by the word "faith" here in this context?  I'm not challenging you, I just don't know what you mean.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2012, 12:37:58 PM »
Believe it or not, many, if not most Christian believers have no idea that there are problems with their faith...

What do you mean by the word "faith" here in this context?  I'm not challenging you, I just don't know what you mean.

By faith I am refering in general to the tenents of their religious beliefs such as the Bible being the divinely inspired Word of God, Jesus having been resurrected from the dead, the Earth and universe for that matter being spoken into existence some 7 to 10,000 years ago, etc.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 01:55:47 PM »
So really, you mean "religious beliefs" as opposed to "trust, loyalty, sincere hopes or a feeling of certitude".  Faith might be the most abused word by religious types.  It means whatever they need it to mean at any given time. 

I just wanted a little clarity, so we all knew what we were talking about.

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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 10:52:30 PM »
Three tactics:
1.  Use their own religion's misconceptions and contradictions against the religion
2.  Use other religious problems and then have them analyze their own religion
3.  Beat it to death with science.  It's your best tool, because it contains evidence and has been studied rather than speaking metaphorically or talking about the great unknown..

The latter is what I will most commonly have to use, even though I'm not a super-knowledgeable scientist, I at least know the gist of things enough to say something about it.  So at least I can form an argument, albeit a weak one, but eh, there's google for that...

I will add that 1. either jesus was intending to 'dupe' everybody or 2. at least he accomplished everything he wanted, which is a mark for concern..
(I'm looking at his, rather, negative and death-bearing sayings here...)
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2012, 07:09:00 AM »
jeremy,

I've been at this site for about 5 years.  we've 3 exhaustively.  It doesn't work. No one gives in.  No one concedes a point.  It does not matter the evidence.  Arguing just makes them firmer in their position, whatever it is.  1 and 2 don't do so well either.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2012, 08:41:47 AM »
(I'm looking at his, rather, negative and death-bearing sayings here...)
brings up a question in my mind.  if the story would be even a little true, a "historical" jesus that was just a apocalyptic rabbi, would JC and his followers have become like Heaven's Gate?   all of the nonsense fails, Rome is still around and the only way not to admit failure is decree that everyone has to die aka what god "really meant"...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2012, 10:41:00 AM »
if the story would be even a little true, a "historical" jesus that was just a apocalyptic rabbi, would JC and his followers have become like Heaven's Gate? 

yes.  All end times cults all seem to follow predictable paths.  They seems to either end in mass suicide (or provoke authorities to kill them, ala the kooks at Qumran) or they have to redefine what their prophesies really mean.  I would guess this is probably indicative of how the brain functions.  We all have similar physiology and brain functionality.  So when faced with the same problems, we come up with similar solutions. 

This might even apply to all religions in general, not just end times cults.  When the hebrews were stomped by the Assyrians, they had to redefine their god in order to avoid facing the reality that Marduk was far greater then their puny, piss ant yhwh. 

Or possibly, it applies to religions or beliefs that have certain characteristics.  Free Market theory?  Abstinence only sex ed?  Trickle down economics? These ideas persist despite evidence that they are baloney.  Why?  What do they have in common with religion?  Maybe it is just human inability to admit we are wrong?  Maybe denial about the universe not being the way we wish it to be is built into our brains?

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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2012, 11:50:18 AM »
Or possibly, it applies to religions or beliefs that have certain characteristics.  Free Market theory?  Abstinence only sex ed?  Trickle down economics? These ideas persist despite evidence that they are baloney.  Why?  What do they have in common with religion?  Maybe it is just human inability to admit we are wrong?  Maybe denial about the universe not being the way we wish it to be is built into our brains?
See bolded.  I believe this to be the primary factor why we fear change, whether it is economic theory, religious theory, etc.  I think people look at things the way they are, then they have this 'idea that everything will somehow be better after they die', so religion teaches them how to put on blindfolds and earmuffs, thereby ignoring everything that we are trying to put in front of them.

I don't see why people are so close-minded.  That's the problem.  Everybody shuts off their brains when it comes down to religion and politics.  Personally, I love debating both.  Don't see why so many others don't...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline screwtape

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2012, 12:07:23 PM »
I don't see why people are so close-minded.

Because they cannot help it.  You are too.  So am I.  We cannot help it.  It is the way the brain works. And we don't even realize it.  I never hear anyone ever say "I am totally closed minded", yet that is how they act.  Why?  Because everyone knows it is irrational to be that way, but they cannot help it. 

The brain has evolved to make a quick judgment, and then rationalize it to the bitter end.  Even scientists have a hard time accepting data once they already have formed a belief about something.  In 1967, after they found a line of immortal cells - HeLa cells[1] - that would keep reproducing, they made all sorts of discoveries about all sorts of things.  However, once scientist[2] pointed out the HeLa cells probably contaminated everything and most of their discoveries were not actually discoveries.  And he gave data in the way of a rare genetic marker that seemed to be ubiquitous.  Scientific researchers did not come to grips with it until the mid 1970s.

They had invested their emotions and careers on their research, but that does not, in my mind, fully explain why the rejected the data for so long.  To me, it is indicative of the fact that our brains are not as good as we think.
 1. from Henrietta Lacks
 2. Gartler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Michael_Gartler
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2012, 02:00:36 PM »
^^ interesting..  8)

And here my argument was that all observers as humans can only agree on undeniable facts and clear evidence/reasoning.  I must have missed the point on 'dah - I don't wanna listen.. bla bla I can't hear you..' kind of stuff that the brain does.
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline proper

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2012, 09:12:01 AM »
The destruction of Tyre.  Yes this is Yahoo Answers but it appears to do a good job of covering most of the issues.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091214050238AAcXEU6

Hello!  Good!

I think that Tyre refers 'to another' Countries is Prophesied concerning 70.... years.

Was not Jezebel of a family line that Married into Judah from Tyre?

Alexander and Tyre in 333 + 1998 = 2331 = 666 x 3.5 Magnoscopic Unfolding Prophecy with previous Country examples endtendres.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 09:15:39 AM by proper »

Offline jeremy0

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2012, 12:16:09 AM »
proper:

you just made know sense!  High-five!   &)
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."

Offline Astreja

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2012, 12:46:14 AM »
Spambots do numerology now?  :o
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Offline jeremy0

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Re: Problematic Prophesy
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2012, 12:53:10 AM »
2012 (end of days) - 1346 (common year starting on sunday) = 666 (satan's day!)
21 (last day) - 15 (half of a month) = 6!  John 6:15-21:

15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

Jesus will save us on December 21, 2012!!!! It's amazing! 

Oh.  My.  God.  Spambots can do insane math...
"If you find yourself reaching for the light, first realize that it has already touched your finger."
"If I were your god, I would have no reason for judgement, and you have all told endless lies about me.  Wait - you do already. I am not amused by your ignorance, thoughtlessness, and shallow mind."