Author Topic: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?  (Read 8083 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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LOL...

Anyway, in the same manner you would pursue something you really desired. W/ all of your heart.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a satisfactory answer.  "LOL" is insulting.
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Highly amusing that your god likes meat?  Does God have a big dinner table?  And giant forks and knives?  And again your "understanding" is only ILY's wishful thinking.  But keep making things up, ILY, it helps pass the time and underline that all theists do it.
So you really think GOD needs it...? Jesus forgave sin w/o sacrifice. In fact, was angered and rebuked the people who were selling sacrificial animals in the Temple court yard. Right...? Can you point to an instance where Jesus said to sacrifice anything...? Other than His victory upon the cross.

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Acctually whoever wrote the book of Hosea said this.  And again, actions speak louder than words, even in the bible.  There is no evidence of this god having mercy at all, and plenty of instances where this god demanded sacrifice.   The bible is nothing more than a poorly assembled set of books that contradict each other.
You are only focusing on what "you" want it to say and what it means to you. Overlooking everything else. No mercy, eh...?

Even the most discriminating Bible bashers would disagree with you.

Offline screwtape

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Quote from: StarStuff
I suggest that the Jesus you find is the one you want to find.

Anyway, in the same manner you would pursue something you really desired. W/ all of your heart.

So you are in agreement with Star Stuff.  Good.
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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LOL...

Anyway, in the same manner you would pursue something you really desired. W/ all of your heart.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a satisfactory answer.  "LOL" is insulting.
You miss quoted me and posted an insulting answer on my post.

Who is insulting who here...?

Offline Omen

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So you really think GOD needs it...?

Red herring, its not that a god needs it or not.  Its that your bible describes an omniscient and omnipotent being that has infantile primitive desires.  Your responses aren't to answer for the problem this creates, but to equivocate and avoid the issue.

You then go on to mindlessly make appeals to your own theological rhetoric:

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Jesus forgave sin w/o sacrifice. In fact, was angered and rebuked the people who were selling sacrificial animals in the Temple court yard. Right...? Can you point to an instance where Jesus said to sacrifice anything...? Other than His victory upon the cross.

This just tells me your bible is contradictory, says one thing and then does another.  I don't care that you quote something that is contradictory to other portions of your own religious text.  It doesn't answer for the original problem and you're just further changing the subject.  This isn't a satisfying intellectual or valid logical answer for anything.

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You are only focusing on what "you" want it to say and what it means to you. Overlooking everything else. No mercy, eh...?

She and others have quoted the bible directly, no one has said what they want it to say.  The only person making up arbitrary rationalizations in the absence of bible is you.  We have no reason to read it literally or metaphorically, no reason to open to page 1 genesis 1.. and pretend like it means anything other than what it says blankly.  You have the burden of demonstrating why we would even bother and then provide the intellectual means supported by evidence to interpret it to mean anything warranted.

You haven't done this.

When are you going to do this?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:40:12 AM by Omen »
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Offline velkyn

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So you really think GOD needs it...? Jesus forgave sin w/o sacrifice. In fact, was angered and rebuked the people who were selling sacrificial animals in the Temple court yard. Right...? Can you point to an instance where Jesus said to sacrifice anything...? Other than His victory upon the cross.
way to go ILY, making up more shit and ignoring yoru bible.  Your god evidently does need it.  And your bible can't quite figure out how JC forgave sins.  Was it by just saying it was okay or was that bloody murder involved.  yes, I can point to an instance where JC said that sacrifice was necessary, when he said that everyone should folow all of his father's commandments since there was no exceptions at all made.  I do love how you make an exception for the really big sacrifice.  Sicne this JC was supposedly God and this god set the rules, no sacrifice would be necessary if this supposedly omnipotent being didn't want it that way.  One more fail for you, ILY. 

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You are only focusing on what "you" want it to say and what it means to you. Overlooking everything else. No mercy, eh...?
Even the most discriminating Bible bashers would disagree with you.
and golly, more claims of people disagreeing with me but alas, not one instance given by the theist who makes the claim.  It's so cute when you do exactly what you claim I do.  ILY, you focus on what you want your god to have "really" meant, decideing that yoru god agrees with you.  You've been shown where you are wrong and rather than show evidence to refute it, you make more baseless claims, demonstrably "overlooking everything else".  And yes, no mercy.  Please do show this mercy of his god.  Show how he had mercy when he had a flood that killed everyone even children.  Show mercy when he repeatedly commanded genocides.  Show mercy when your god intentionally will supposedly allow its arch enemy to corrupt more people *after* all of the suposed "evil "nonbeliever are murdered in Revelation.  As I said, supposed actions speak louder than supposed words.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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GOD desires mercy not sacrifice. It is Jesus who declared this. And it is through Jesus Christ that GOD has announced and put a stop to it. Once and for all.

I do not believe that. The God of the Bible has been wanting sacrifices. Many of the gods wanted sacrifices. I’m not sure if they “put a stop to it” but it’s still unreasonable. If you’re referring to the sacrifice of your Jesus, I think it’s illogical. Why can’t the God just simply forgive? If we’re capable of forgiveness but your God isn’t, don’t you find that strange? It seem to me that if your God wanted mercy, he deserves none. I’m responsible for my own faults and I accept my own faults and the idea of sin is asinine and is more of control.

The wages of sin are death. All sin leads to death in some way. Things that we know not to do. Things we are aware of but still do. We are all guilty in some way or another and we can no longer say we didn't know or blame someone else for. We all have participated and have fallen short.

Unfortunately we’re all mortal beings who are simply living our lives. It has nothing to do with sin. The very idea of sin was to control us, to shame us for no good reason, and to make us feel guilt and self-hate. Maybe you might not think that. The way I see it, we’re human, we’re sexual creatures and your bible condemns sexuality. The things we do, is part of our nature. If there is a God and he wants to condemn us because of our nature he created us to be, I would say he’s not worthy of worship.

“I’m going to create a human, doing human things which I am against, and then make him fear and cower before me and beg for forgiveness so I won’t torture him for all eternity for being what I created him to be.”

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But GOD still loves us anyways. Even though we neither deserved it nor earned it. And has chosen to reconcile to Himself, All things. Through The Lord Jesus Christ.

Demanding worship and praise isn’t love, being a jealous God which he so clearly stated in the bible,. Isn’t loving, and to send people to hell isn’t loving.

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I fully trust in The Lord and His plan for Salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ.

 Don’t trust any religion, not even yours. In retrospect, your God is unworthy and if he doesn’t like that, he can come down here and talk to me himself.

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I was going to say "I don't know why so many people are angry." But I know that it isn't always easy.


Take care...

Angry? You want to know why some of us are angry? I don’t like the idea of being told to worship God or go to hell. I don’t like the idea of people using religion for their hate or creating genocides or crusades in the name of their deity or deities. I don’t like folks who tells me that I have to respect their religious beliefs while in the same time demonize me for not believing. I don’t like misogyny, which is what is in the bible, I don’t like slavery, which is condoned in the bible, I don’t like homophobia, which tells us to kill those who are gay, and I don’t like the bible telling us that we’re deserving of this because of some sin or whatever. The Bible, the crusades, and the bigotry is precisely what I’m angry about and is precisely why I will never worship a God.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Right. So, you are saying that Jesus is a childish exaggerator. Good to hear it straight from you.

In order for something to "be done aways with', it must first exist.  So I do not follow you reasoning.

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It is you who is making claims (and very wild, supernatural, unobservable ones at that), and therefore it is you who is saddled with providing the good evidence and reason for your claims.

Once again.  I present the universe and evidence. 

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What you might want to consider is if "faith" (believing things for which there is no evidence) is a good way or a poor way of understanding our world and reality.

Incorrect.  Faith is the assured expectation of realities though not beheld.  I have faith the sun will rise.

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That's because you haven't for one moment looked at your belief system and/or bible critically.  Please list the books you've read which are counter to your beliefs.  If you think the bible is "perfect", maybe start

Yes, in fact I have.  I'm here aren't I?  I do have doubts that you have considered any counter arguments.

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And that what we call god's justice is only man's idea of what he would do if he were god

Yes.  This is exactly what you guys are doing by saying God would just forgive.

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You also fail to appreciate that many of us here were christians, myself included (yes a "true" christian) for a quarter century.  I woke up.

Sadly many theists are completely ignorant as to what the Bible teaches beyond "Jesus died for our sins."

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If anything you show that you're more likely to be wrong because you refuse to even consider any other options but the ones you want to be true. We're not bound by that limitation and can look at the matter more objectively

What is the basis of your objectivity?  Once again.  I present the universe as my evidence. Where is yours?

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Again, why do we have to do more work than you do? You're the one trying to make the claim in the first place. Why don't you show us something more than you saying how god must be?

I am showing you what the Bible says.  Not what I dreamed up.  If you are going to judge the Bible then shouldn't you consider both sides of the argument?

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By what standards are you qualified? You can't even define your god, and it's dubious whether you've even read your own book.

My God is the embodiment of love, justice, and wisdom.

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How are you qualified if you can't even form an intelligent or proper defense for your ideas?

Your comments show that your study seems to have been limited to a study of only the surface of the Bible.  And nothing in depth.

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What evidence are you talking about?

The Bible and reason.  For example what is justice?  Why is it symbolized with scales?  Because justice means balance and not forgiveness only.

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For example, if I said, "in the Lollypop mountains, which are beyond the horizon, there lives a Blue King and he prefers blondes," you could not prove me wrong.  No way, no how.  Because it is a statement that cannot be verified.  That does not mean I am right.  In fact, the onus should be on me to prove the statement correct.

I understand this argument.  However, what if a billion people said the same thing with just a little variance?  Does that make it true?  No.  Does that mean I would be a fool to not at least investigate?  Yes.

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You are saying faith is better evidence than imagination.  I see no distinction between the two. Faith, in the case of religion, is without evidence.  If you had evidence, you would have said "I believe because of this..."

Example.  When the Big Bang started being widely accepted, many theists considered this a challenge to their beliefs?  Why?  It means science now believes the universe had a beginning.  In what way is this a challenge to the Bible?  The Bible agrees.  How many times does it have to be right before it's worth consideration?

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Jst, if your god is indeed this omnieverything being, it makes the rules.  So why not make animal sacrifices valuable enough?

A perfect being would be limited to doing that which is perfect.  To do otherwise would mean it has become imperfect.  This means it really can't do just anything we might want it to do.

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If a just and loving god is the source of, or is, morality, then how does a moral being justify taking the life of an innocent for the sins of the guilty ?

How is moral justice in any way shape or form served ?

God did not force Jesus to sacrifice himself.  Jesus did it willingly.  Where is the justice for Jesus?  He was resurrected to become the ruler of those he sacrificed himself for.

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At this point all a god is accomplishing is to disturbingly take indiscriminate revenge on his creation through himself and for the mistakes that he has made himself in creating, with foreknowledge, a flaw in humans. This accomplishes zero and Moral justice then is not served and the guilty are still guilty and especially because his son did not actually die. The wages of sin is death. Period. But Jesus survived both physically and spiritually and so the deal ends up an irreparable and powerless sham from a logical standpoint.

If God is ultimately successful then there is no real flaw.  To me the real question is does the ends justify the means.  And no.  The sacrifice was real.  The sacrifice was a perfect human life.  Not a perfect spiritual life.

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The absurd idea that a spirit being creates a child through an unnatural act and proceeds to have this innocent being killed does not in the least way exonerate me for having to take moral responsibility for my natural actions.

Firstly Jesus existed with God before he became human.  And while it does extend to you forgiveness it does not remove the suffering you experience because of the results of any moral irresponsibility.  It simply means you don't have to pay the ultimate price of eternal death.

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True, but if he was a victim of childhood indoctrination, you can hardly blame him.

My extend of my "indoctrination" is that my parents belive God exists even though they never attempted to convince me of this themselves.  I did not become convinced of this until I researched things myself as an adult.  But I guess I could claim "my brain made me do it."

Zankuu Will it do any good for me to prepare an answer?  If I do will you simply say my "magic decoder ring" is broken?

Everyone consider this.  In recent times knowledge of almost everything has increased.  Is it not possible that knowledge and understanding of the Bible has also increased?







Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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Once again.  I present the universe and evidence.
Show that the universe was created by *your* god.  You’ve been asked and have not done so.  Muslims claim that the universe is created by Allah; Hindus say it was Vishnu,  Wiccans say it was the Goddess.  Most if not all religions have creator deities, show me that yours is the only real one.   

and gee, more attempts at the no true Scotsman fallacy.  Jst, you’re still on the hook for showing that your version is the only right one and that you are indeed a Christian as you claim. 
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My God is the embodiment of love, justice, and wisdom.
Then it’s not the one in the bible.  More than enough evidence in there showing that god isnt’ any of the above. 
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Example.  When the Big Bang started being widely accepted, many theists considered this a challenge to their beliefs?  Why?  It means science now believes the universe had a beginning.  In what way is this a challenge to the Bible?  The Bible agrees.
No, it doesn’t. There is no more agreement with your religion and the BBT than the religion of the ancient Egyptians or the Aztecs. Oohh all say that the universe started.  Shall I accept those religions to be as “true” as you claim yours to be and just ignore the details that show that the writers of the bible books were ignorant about many things?  Pity you have to keep lying about what your bible says.   
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A perfect being would be limited to doing that which is perfect.  To do otherwise would mean it has become imperfect.  This means it really can't do just anything we might want it to do.
  And nice depowering of your god right here.  So much for the omnipotent god that the bible claims.  I do l ike how you now have created a new external force that determines “perfect”. 
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Everyone consider this.  In recent times knowledge of almost everything has increased.  Is it not possible that knowledge and understanding of the Bible has also increased?
Ah, and one more claim that your understanding is the right one.  No evidence at all that shows that knowledge or understanding of the bible has increased.  The excuses become more entertaining as time goes by and we still find no evidence of the biblical nonsense, but nothing to show that any religion is any more accurate in its claims about the universe or its god.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Jst, you’re still on the hook for showing that your version is the only right one and that you are indeed a Christian as you claim.

Prove that I am wrong.

Furthermore, this sentence demonstrates you abiliy to insert fact for fiction.  Where have I claimed to be a Christian?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Prove that I am wrong.

Fallacy, shifting the burden of proof.  You're the claimant, you're making the positive claim.  No one has to disprove what you cannot prove and trying to qualify it by insisting someone disprove it invites an impossible standard to achieve.

Why do you hide your religious beliefs behind such equivocating dishonesty?

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Furthermore, this sentence demonstrates you abiliy to insert fact for fiction.  Where have I claimed to be a Christian?

This is incredibly disingenuous and arrogant considering you've made several assertions about a set of beliefs that you've claimed as true, regarding a christian like theology.  No one gives a shit that you call yourself a jehovah witness and think christian's are not 'true' or are not like yourself.  Those are semantics.
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Offline velkyn

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Jst, you’re still on the hook for showing that your version is the only right one and that you are indeed a Christian as you claim.

Prove that I am wrong.
no miracle done by you, thus you are not a true follower of your supposed messiah.  No evidence for any essential bible events.  Tah-dah. 

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Furthermore, this sentence demonstrates you abiliy to insert fact for fiction.  Where have I claimed to be a Christian?

ROFL.   ;D   Oh that's a good one, jst.  You've claimed that the Christian bible is right at least the bits you like.   You have climed to be following some of the Jehovah's witnesses nonsense.  You've insisted that a Catholic is right in her claims.  andn now you want to play this game?   ;D

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Fallacy, shifting the burden of proof.  You're the claimant, you're making the positive claim.  No one has to disprove what you cannot prove and trying to qualify it by insisting someone disprove it invites an impossible standard to achieve.

Many times I have attempted to show what my "magic decoder ring" says.  All I am met with is "well that's not what some other christian magic decoder rings say."  This does not prove mine is wrong.

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This is incredibly disingenuous and arrogant considering you've made several assertions about a set of beliefs that you've claimed as true, regarding a christian like theology.  No one gives a shit that you call yourself a jehovah witness and think christian's are not 'true' or are not like yourself.  Those are semantics.

Because I believe or have an understanding of what a Christian is does not make me a christian.  Christianity is not defined by what one believes but rather what one does with that knowledge.  Because of how I live my life I am not a Christian.  Just like those that burned witches were not Christians.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 11:10:19 AM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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In fact if I were a Christian, as proven by my actions, I would not be here.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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Fallacy, shifting the burden of proof.  You're the claimant, you're making the positive claim.  No one has to disprove what you cannot prove and trying to qualify it by insisting someone disprove it invites an impossible standard to achieve.

Many times I have attempted ..

You have never provided any reasonable attempt at arguing for the validity of your own claims on this forum.  Not a single solitary time, the few instances where you have been given the chance you resorted to lying about science and then once that blew up in your face.. you abandoned all attempts.  You are a liar.

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This is incredibly disingenuous and arrogant considering you've made several assertions about a set of beliefs that you've claimed as true, regarding a christian like theology.  No one gives a shit that you call yourself a jehovah witness and think christian's are not 'true' or are not like yourself.  Those are semantics.

Because I believe or have an understanding of what a Christian is does not make me a christian.  Christianity is not defined by what one believes but rather what one does with that knowledge.  Because of how I live my life I am not a Christian.  Just like those that burned witches were not Christians.

They were christians as much as you are, you don't get to defined through a fallacy of argument from authority what is or is not a true christian.  The point being that you KNOW your a believer and you were just dishonestly equivocating in response to Velkyn, because you can't be bothered to actually be serious and honest with others.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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They were christians as much as you are, you don't get to defined through a fallacy of argument from authority what is or is not a true christian.

And I am not a Christian.  So yes, they were as much a Christian as I.  The Bible clearly shows that those "DOING the will of the father" are Christians as opposed to those "KNOWING the will of the father".  Satan himself knows the will of God.  That does not make him a Christian.

See if I was a Christian then I wouldn't have lied as you said I have done and to some extent did.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Although some lies were born from ignorance and not a willful desire to deceive.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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  The Bible clearly shows ..

The bible doesn't clearly shown anything other than an amalgam of differing and contradictory theological concepts that can be cited to convey a range of differing beliefs.

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that those "DOING the will of the father" are Christians as opposed to those "KNOWING the will of the father".

This is an insular tautology, a tautology is a kind of statement that is always true, regardless of the context.  So Christian A, can say this about themselves as much as Christian B, as well as Muslim C who has a completely differing religious ideology.

It does nothing but reinforce the in group belief, while never adequately addressing why it would ever be believed in the first place.  You're not saying anything to anyone except yourself when you make this kind of platitude.

Why do you think referencing cult like self reinforcing dogma is an argument for anything?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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While it is true that no Christian is perfect, it is possible to be much closer than I.  I mean there are certain absolute requirements that must first be met.  One requirement is that you must not "practice" sin.  Once can commit a sin and be a Christian.  However, one cannot make a continual practice of sin and be a Christian.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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While it is true

What is true?

How is it true?

Where did you deliver any argument to support your claim?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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What is true?

That no Christian is without sin as sin is defined in the Bible.

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How is it true?

Noone has ever presented himself or been presented as a perfect Christian, completely free of sin.  If someone actually has then none have been proven upon examination to be so.

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Where did you deliver any argument to support your claim?

I did not feel that proof was needed.  But as proof consider the statement above. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline velkyn

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See if I was a Christian then I wouldn't have lied as you said I have done and to some extent did.

from what I've seen this is exactly why you have lied, that you are a Christian and are simply inept.  You said you weren't a Jehovah's Witness only that you generally agreed with them. Why you haven't become one is still a mystery.  You also agreed with Maggie/Jane, a Catholic and her claims.  At this moment, it seems that you are indeed a Christian.  You have said that theists are ignorant of this ""Jesus died for our sins."  You seem to believe in what Christians do about Jesus: "God did not force Jesus to sacrifice himself.  Jesus did it willingly. " " Jesus existed with God before he became human. " "He set up the animal sacrifices as a temporary covering until such time he was ready to bring forth this "seed" which proved to be his Jesus." 

But say you were a JW, your claims are still as wrong. I could just pile all of the religions that claim the bible is true and just call them "Biblians" and all of your claims are still untrue. All that seems to truly seperate Christians and JWs is who thinks their right about how they define Jesus, JW's only being Arianian Christians as opposed to Trinitarian Christians.   You still have no evidence that your god is responsible for this creation.  Where is it, Jst, if you think you are right?  Show me that the other religions' creator gods are imaginary.  You claim that the bible agrees with the BBT.  It doesn't, and creation myths all have a "beginning".  You claim that your god is the embodiment of justice, love and wisdom but you can't even show it exists much less refute wehre the bible shows that it is repeatedly *not* any of these.  You still believe in a ridiculous blood sacrifice of a magical thing/being to a god for the rules he set up.

You again use the no true Christian nonsense and have no more evidence for what you consider a true Christian to be than the next.  No Christian can show that they and only they do or know what the "will of the father" even is.  And from what we've seen Christians do indeed contiually sin and continueally think that they can ask forgiveness and still consider themseves Christians.  Since you cannot show what a "real" Christian is, nor can they, we have no other choice than to accept their self-identification by their claims of belief in this god and its savior.   

You have insisted that you know what yoru god "really" means, and now you wish to claim "All I am met with is "well that's not what some other christian magic decoder rings say."  This does not prove mine is wrong."   From this it seems that you are indeed a Christian and consider yourself so.  Jst, there is no harm in declaring yourself a Christian, but if you do it only to avoid responsiblity for what you have claimed and supported, it's rather silly to watch.   

It does not prove yours wrong.  The lack of evidence has proven yours wrong and theirs too.  None of you have any evidence at all that any of you are right. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Omen

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I did not feel that proof was needed.  But as proof consider the statement above.

Proof is needed, the above statements are not 'proof'.  They are rhetorical rationalizes tied to your religious scripture.

Why would I read it to mean anything?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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I did not feel that proof was needed.  But as proof consider the statement above.

Proof is needed, the above statements are not 'proof'.  They are rhetorical rationalizes tied to your religious scripture.

Why would I read it to mean anything?

I just gave my proof.  And there is no evidence to the contrary.  Please show me a Christian that claims to be perfect so that I may make an examination.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Omen

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I just gave my proof.

Your interpretative rhetoric isn't proof.

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  And there is no evidence to the contrary.  Please show me a Christian that claims to be perfect so that I may make an examination.

You've already repeatedly asserted who is or who is not a 'true christian' based solely on what they do or do not do.  This is incredibly dishonest of you to pretend like you haven't, literally just a few posts back:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22317.msg505026.html#msg505026

The 'true christian' argument is commonly made by all kinds of theist that visit this forum.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Dante

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Many times I have attempted to show what my "magic decoder ring" says.  All I am met with is "well that's not what some other christian magic decoder rings say."  This does not prove mine is wrong.

Do you realize it also doesn't prove you right either?

What it proves to me, is that anyone can make up any pile of crap they like and call it a "belief system". And if said "belief system" cannot be proven wrong, it's all good in the 'hood.

Utterly moronic, if you ask me.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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<snip>
First off, I have already given examples, from scripture that has been removed by the mod. That shows that some things are meant to be taken spiritually and "not" literally. Prehaps you could speak to screwtape and ask him why he deleted it...?

My very existence is reason enough for me to pursue the cause. It may not be for you. That is an individual choice as to whether or not you do so. For me, my limited understanding and from (what I know to be true within), I can relate to what Jesus Christ says. I believe in what He says and what He stood for.

I have removed the portion of this post that was nothing more than emotional masturbation / preaching and allowed the content to effectively remain the same.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 01:09:25 PM by JeffPT »

Offline screwtape

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Prehaps you could speak to screwtape and ask him why he deleted it...?

I removed it for the protection of the members of the forum.  It was raving, senseless crazy talk.  Only an insane person would have been able to make sense of it, and a sane person trying to would have been driven insane. 
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Offline Omen

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First off, I have already given examples, from scripture that has been removed by the mod. That shows that some things are meant to be taken spiritually and "not" literally. Prehaps you could speak to screwtape and ask him why he deleted it...?

You've been here since hte middle of February and have contributed 301 posts as of today.

Not one has contained a viable logical argument to support the claims that you do make, whether they be why your beliefs are true, or anything that approaches a logical argument to support interpreting something literal vs metaphorical ( or spiritual, as you insert through a special pleading fallacy ).

So what am I supposed to believe here? That you've had 4 months and hundreds of chances to actually do what everyone has asked you to do since day one... and you've only began doing so in the past few posts you've made since entered moderation.. only to be slighted by some evil no good doer of a mod?

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My very existence is reason enough for me to pursue the cause. It may not be for you.

Because it doesn't answer anything, it is not a logically sound answer, it offers no explanation and it just begs the question:

Pursue what? Why? How?

When did you determine any of it true? How did you determine any of it true that can be objectively verified? If it can't be objectively verified and is limited to your personal experience, than how do you distinguish it from you being mentally ill?   How do you account for theological contradictions? How do you account for evidential contradictions, where facts contradict biblical claims? etc. etc. etc.

You have never built a solid logical argument for anything since day 1.  You've also resorted to whining, false accusations, and condescending dismissals when held accountable.

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With all of my heart, ...

Preaching nonsense.  There is not a substantial meaningful statement here that supports any claim you're making.

Why do your religious beliefs motivate you to this absurd level of anti-intellectualism, delusional hysteria, and dishonesty?

Considering everything you have done and haven't done, why would any of us take you seriously based on your behavior?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 01:13:59 PM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me