Author Topic: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?  (Read 8089 times)

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Offline Alzael

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There is no content here for any argument.  If you don't believe in God fine.  But if the God of the Bible exists, and he does, then do not presume to know anything about him.

Why not? You do it all the time. And you can't show that you're anymore likely to be right. If anything you show that you're more likely to be wrong because you refuse to even consider any other options but the ones you want to be true. We're not bound by that limitation and can look at the matter more objectively.

If you claim to know anything about him then show me something other than how you say God MUST be.

Again, why do we have to do more work than you do? You're the one trying to make the claim in the first place. Why don't you show us something more than you saying how god must be?

Remember I am the theist.  I think that makes me a bit more qualified.

By what standards are you qualified? You can't even define your god, and it's dubious whether you've even read your own book.

Considering I've read the bible, Quran, and most of the Avesta. Argued about religion for years with dozens of other theists. Not to mention studied more religions than you've probably even heard of, I would think that would make me much more qualified than you (if you can call anyone actually qualified at the art of make-believe). The same could be said for many of the others here. How are you qualified if you can't even form an intelligent or proper defense for your ideas?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline screwtape

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Why does Yahweh play Shakespeare and drag out this unnecessary drama? If your god really wanted to forgive people for their wrongdoings he would just forgive them, not have them cut the throats of lambs.

Again, an all powerful and perfect being would just forgive- it wouldn't make up some disgusting ritual involving sprinkling the blood of animals on altars. That's silly and barbaric. The Judeo-Christian religion sure is obsessed with sacrifices.

Well the evidence is to the contrary to your opinion.  You have nothing to base your claims on other than your own imagination.

What evidence are you talking about?


If you can't prove me wrong, you just make baseless claims. 

If I make some crazy claim that also happens to be completely unverifiable, does that mean I'm right?  For example, if I said, "in the Lollypop mountains, which are beyond the horizon, there lives a Blue King and he prefers blondes," you could not prove me wrong.  No way, no how.  Because it is a statement that cannot be verified.  That does not mean I am right.  In fact, the onus should be on me to prove the statement correct.  I address this in Screwtape's Dog. I do not own a dog, but how could the non-existence of such a dog be proven?


I believe it by faith, based on my knowledge the Bible has not lied to me yet.  All you can offer is argument formed from your imagination of how you think a God should act.

You are saying faith is better evidence than imagination.  I see no distinction between the two. Faith, in the case of religion, is without evidence.  If you had evidence, you would have said "I believe because of this..." and then present the evidence.  But you didn't.  You just said "faith", which is essentially imagination.


Remember I am the theist.  I think that makes me a bit more qualified.

Believing something is true is a qualification now?  Ho-boy. 
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Offline velkyn

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Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.  This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.  Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.
Jst, if your god is indeed this omnieverything being, it makes the rules.  So why not make animal sacrifices valuable enough?
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Offline Star Stuff

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Jst, if your god is indeed this omnieverything being, it makes the rules.  So why not make animal sacrifices valuable enough?

More excuses and rationalizations comin' right up......
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Offline gonegolfing

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If the forgiveness is temporary, is it really forgiveness?

Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.  This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.  Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.

And just how is this moral justice ?

If a just and loving god is the source of, or is, morality, then how does a moral being justify taking the life of an innocent for the sins of the guilty ?

How is moral justice in any way shape or form served ?

It doesn't make it any easier for god either to try and say that it's OK because the sacrifice is himself and accomplished so through his holy ghost love child son.

At this point all a god is accomplishing is to disturbingly take indiscriminate revenge on his creation through himself and for the mistakes that he has made himself in creating, with foreknowledge, a flaw in humans. This accomplishes zero and Moral justice then is not served and the guilty are still guilty and especially because his son did not actually die. The wages of sin is death. Period. But Jesus survived both physically and spiritually and so the deal ends up an irreparable and powerless sham from a logical standpoint.

The absurd idea that a spirit being creates a child through an unnatural act and proceeds to have this innocent being killed does not in the least way exonerate me for having to take moral responsibility for my natural actions.

The idea that sacrifices of the innocent of any kind--whether they be animal or human--can serve to bring moral justice and absolve the guilty is absurd and immoral in and of itself.

Only a corrupt and self-serving social system like religion could come up with such a disgusting concept, mask it as an act of "love", and then make it into a doctrine and tenet of faith in that system.

Shame on you for believing such a thing to be true.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 10:02:44 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline Star Stuff

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Even some theists are waking up to this.

"The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed." (Bishop John Shelby Spong)



Shame on you for believing such a thing to be true.

True, but if he was a victim of childhood indoctrination, you can hardly blame him.
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Offline Zankuu

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Well the evidence is to the contrary to your opinion.  You have nothing to base your claims on other than your own imagination.

No it is not. Jst, have you read Leviticus? You can't escape a paragraph without detailed instructions on how to properly sacrifice. Can you backup your claim of there being evidence that points to the Bible and Judeo-Christian faith NOT being centered around sacrifice? I'll go ahead and provide evidence of the contrary:

Within the Torah you'll find countless examples. The first sacrifice in the Bible was Abel's offering of plumb dead sheep[1], which got God's rocks off, but some argue the first sacrifice was in early Genesis where God killed and skinned animals to cloth Adam and Eve. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the sacrifice was for the sin they committed, but we're drifting off point. The next sacrifice in Genesis involves God enjoying taking whiffs of the smoldered animal carcasses that were stacked on an altar after the flood[2]. You know what, this could take forever. I'll just list off the verses where he demands burnt sacrifices, gives a step-by-step how to, or just craves an animal blood splattered altar:

•Leviticus 1:17
•Leviticus 2:2
•Leviticus 2:9-12
•Leviticus 3:5-16
•Leviticus 6:15-21
•Leviticus 7:15-25
•Numbers 18:17-19
•Numbers 19:1-22
•Numbers 22:25
•Numbers 28:1-31
•Numbers 29:1-40
•Deuteronomy 17:1
•1 Kings 3:4
•2 Kings 2:10-25
•2 Chronicles 7:1
•2 Chronicles 43:18-25
•2 Chronicles 46:2-7
•Malachi 1:7-14

...and those are just the animal sacrifices. If you would like, you can attempt to address why Yahweh dabbles in and accepts human sacrifice as well. To name a few:

•1 Kings 13:1-2
•2 Kings 23:20-25
•Judges 11:29-40
•Deuteronomy 13:13-19 <- my personal favorite: sacrificing non-believers!

And then there's Jesus. His entire existence was to be a means to an end and his sole purpose was to have his blood spilled and to be sacrificed. Clearly, the ancient Hebrew tradition is layered with a sacrificial tone. And there is simply no denying the main theme of Christianity is a perfect sacrifice for sin. Or is this all my imagination like you said?

This is an incorrect analogy.  The sacrifice of his son had no effect on the animals personally. Furthermore, the sacrifice of a human for a dog is not a corresponding sacrifice.  The human has too much value.

It's a proper analogy, and sacrifice serves no purpose whether the sacrifice is for a pack of canines or a group of apes- it's pure superstition.

No, the father does not throw the grenade. You just state inacurracy after inaccuracy.

Yes he does*. I'll explain why my version of your analogy is accurate. This is what you presented me with:

"Let's say father and son are on a battlefield together and they see a grenade land among a group of soldiers.  Let's say the father is not physically able to get to the grenade and he instructs his son to throw himself on the grenade to save those other men.  Let's say the son agrees with his father and throws himself on the grenade and it explodes, killing him.  All the other men are safe because of this."

The characters in your analogy represent the following:

Father = God
Son = Jesus
Battlefield = World
Grenade = Sin
Soldiers = Humanity

*God created sin. We can argue all day about freewill and if he created it directly or indirectly, but that makes no difference in our analogy. Nothing can exist without the Christian god's knowledge or action. Therefore, he created it and allows it to exist. Which is the main reason your analogy falls apart. If God is the creator of sin and allows it in the world, then the grenade in your story comes from the father's own belt, and he is the one that lobs it into their foxhole. Another flaw in your analogy is that the father is somehow crippled. God has no such limitations and there is absolutely no reason why he wouldn't be able to jump on the grenade himself, or, at the very least, toss it where it won't hurt anyone. But back to the story. You say the son jumped on the grenade and saved the soldiers but this isn't exactly true either. The explosion of the grenade killed the son and caused shrapnel to bury itself in all of the men. The men won't die immediately, but they are bleeding out; just as sin still exists in the world and is continuously claiming souls. Oh, and don't forget the part where the son that jumped on that 'nade comes back from the dead- shrapnel free, no less.

Are you beginning to see just how poor this analogy is?

Remember I am the theist.  I think that makes me a bit more qualified.

I was a Christian for nearly two decades, then I read and studied the Bible. Where do I stand?
 1. Exodus 4:4
 2. Genesis 8:20
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:00:02 PM by Zankuu »
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Offline Star Stuff

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Leviticus 1:9  "You are to wash the internal organs and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD."


Good grief.  At what point is it not obvious that this god is nothing more than a reflection of the primitive, desert men who invented him?

« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:17:56 PM by Star Stuff »
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Offline Zankuu

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Star, it's been so long since I was a Christian I forgot what poor rationalization I attempted to make for it during my deconversion. I imagine Jst will jog my memory.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Star Stuff

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Me too. 25 years of utter delusion, and 25 years of being awake.  Once you see and realize the mental rape that religion in general and christianity in particular is, the jig is up.


There is no absurdity, however palpable, which cannot be firmly implanted in the minds of all, if only one begins to inculcate it before the early age of six by constantly repeating it to them with an air of great solemnity. For the training of man, like that of animals, is completely successful only at an early age.  (Arthur Schopenhaur)
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

As well as nothing was wasted inappropriately.

You guys seem to think that GOD has some insatiable appetite for blood and that is just not the case.

Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions, when the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.
Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

Thing is, we are not making GOD in our own image, you guys are the ones who are trying to conform GOD to your own image and what you think GOD should be or should have done. Or if GOD is real why...? Or why didn't GOD do this or ....?  If GOD is all powerful and almighty then why can't He...?

So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...? You claim that we Christians are gullible and weak minded. Thinking we sound ridiculous and believe in fairy tales...

Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.

Ohhhhhhhh Kaaaaaaaaay.






Offline freakygin

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Is it wrong to ask "Why"?
If you argue correctly, you're never wrong..

Offline ILOVEYOU

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...I think is more important is to understand Jesus Christ first...

And just how does one go about that?  There wasn't one thing mentioned about him during his alleged life.  All we have are "wonder stories" as Robert M. Price put it (listen to this interview), written decades later.

I suggest that the Jesus you find is the one you want to find.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 08:16:04 AM by Star Stuff »

Offline Add Homonym

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

As well as nothing was wasted inappropriately.

You guys seem to think that GOD has some insatiable appetite for blood and that is just not the case.

Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions, when the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.
Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

Thing is, we are not making GOD in our own image, you guys are the ones who are trying to conform GOD to your own image and what you think GOD should be or should have done. Or if GOD is real why...? Or why didn't GOD do this or ....?  If GOD is all powerful and almighty then why can't He...?

So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...? You claim that we Christians are gullible and weak minded. Thinking we sound ridiculous and believe in fairy tales...

Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.

Ohhhhhhhh Kaaaaaaaaay.

Ooooookay. Have you tried reading the Bible? Your style of reading the Bible seems to be by skin absorption.

Leviticus 1-8 is the part you should read. There are 3 types of animal sacrifice: sin, guilt, burned. In the case of sin and guilt, the priest could keep all parts except the fat and kidneys. In the case of 'burned', the priest could keep only the hide. All fat was burned 7:22 - the most energetic part of the animal.

There were 2 factions: Sadducee and Pharisee. The Pharisees were trying to replace sacrifice with prayer, but the Sadducees followed THE TORAH.

Quote
So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...?

We have modest expectations, which include creating the universe, making it work, and not being a fucking moron who likes burned animals.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.  This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.  Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.

You've been reading Pseudo Bibles again, havent you.

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
Jesus was a man he was not perfect, pure and innocent. He sinned and he died for our sins.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090610122757AAFvabH
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

Nope.  I'm a vegetarian.  So no animals have to die for my pleasure - unlike your god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jetson

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ILOVEYOU - aren't we talking about a god?  The one and only God?  This god does not need food, correct?  Think about it for a minute...this god apparently created everything - stars, atoms, laws of physics, black holes, worms, and even rainbows!  We want to know why such a being needs us to kill animals.  It doesn't make any sense.

In fact, if you give it a moments thought, you would have to conclude that such a god would need absolutely nothing - ever.  Yet, its needs are at the top of every Christians list.  It is apparently the most needy thing in existence.

Offline gonegolfing

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Even some theists are waking up to this.

"The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed." (Bishop John Shelby Spong)



Shame on you for believing such a thing to be true.

True, but if he was a victim of childhood indoctrination, you can hardly blame him.

I can and do because he is an adult now.

I was a victim of child indoctrination myself...and am now deeply shamed and embarrassed to admit that I did hold these beliefs much too long and well into adulthood.

The time frame for when people should stop believing the god bullshit is about the same as that of Santa and the Tooth Fairy---around 7 yrs old ?  ;) 
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Historicity

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This is a repost of something I gathered a month or so about this. This is not cherry picking a single reference and blowing it out of proportion.  Jehovah fed off the sacrifices and enjoyed the flavor.  Being a spirit he feeds off of vapors and smoke.  This was typical of the Gods of that time.  Look:
Quote
GENESIS
8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

EXODUS
29:17 And thou shalt cut the ram in pieces, and wash the inwards of him, and his legs, and put them unto his pieces, and unto his head. And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savor, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

29:25 And thou shalt receive them of their hands, and burn them upon the altar for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor before the LORD: it is an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

29:41 And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savor, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

NUMBERS
1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savor unto the LORD, of the herd or of the flock:

15:7 And for a drink offering thou shalt offer the third part of an hin of wine, for a sweet savor unto the LORD.

15:13 All that are born of the country shall do these things after this manner, in offering an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savor unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

18:17 But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savor unto the LORD.

28:2 Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, My offering, and my bread for my sacrifices made by fire, for a sweet savor unto me, shall ye observe to offer unto me in their due season.

28:5 And a tenth part of an ephah of flour for a meat offering, mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering, which was ordained in mount Sinai for a sweet savor, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

28:8 And the other lamb shalt thou offer at even: as the meat offering of the morning, and as the drink offering thereof, thou shalt offer it, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

28:13 And a several tenth deal of flour mingled with oil for a meat offering unto one lamb; for a burnt offering of a sweet savor, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

28:26 Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto the LORD, after your weeks be out, ye shall have an holy
convocation; ye shall do no servile work: But ye shall offer the burnt offering for a sweet savor unto the LORD; two young bullocks, one ram, seven lambs of the first year;

29:2 And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savor unto the LORD; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish

29:5 And one kid of the goats for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you: Beside the burnt offering of the month, and his meat offering, and the daily burnt offering, and his meat offering, and their drink offerings, according unto their manner, for a sweet savor, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD.

29:13 And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:

29:36 But ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD: one bullock, one ram, seven lambs of the first year without blemish:

LEVITICUS
1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

1:13 But he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water: and the priest shall bring it all, and burn it upon the altar: it is a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

2:2 And he shall bring it to Aaron's sons the priests: and he shall take thereout his handful of the flour thereof, and of the oil thereof, with all the frankincense thereof; and the priest shall burn the memorial of it upon the altar, to be an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD:

2:12 As for the oblation of the firstfruits, ye shall offer them unto the LORD: but they shall not be burnt on the altar for a sweet savor.

3:5 And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the LORD.

3:16 And the priest shall burn them upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire for a sweet savor: all the fat is the LORD's.

4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savor unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

6:21 In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savor unto the LORD.

17:6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savor unto the LORD.

23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savor:  and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

23:18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the LORD, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savor unto the LORD.

EZRA
6:9 And that which they have need of, both young bullocks, and rams, and lambs, for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the appointment of the priests which are at Jerusalem, let it be given them day by day without fail: That they may offer sacrifices of sweet savors unto the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king, and of his sons.

ILLIAD
And they sacrificed to Apollo perfect hecatombs of bulls and goats, along the shore of the barren sea; and the savor involved in smoke ascended to heaven.


« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 07:16:04 AM by Historicity »

Offline pianodwarf

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(I'm writing this on Friday morning, so this is actually about last night's dinner.)

Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Spaghetti with tomato sauce, topped with grated parmesan and romano cheese, a glass of milk, and some Girl Scout Thin Mints for dessert.

Quote
Did you eat any meat...?

No.

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Did you prepare it...?

Yes.

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Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

Yes.  (If it weren't, I probably wouldn't have prepared or eaten it.)

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It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

So?  In pre-Civil War America, many slaveholders could (and did) say the same thing about  their slaves.

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As well as nothing was wasted inappropriately.

Burning up an animal for someone who doesn't need it is a waste.

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You guys seem to think that GOD has some insatiable appetite for blood and that is just not the case.

I don't know about "insatiable appetite" per se, but he certainly has a lot of weird-ass rules.

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Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

So was he calling Yahweh a liar, then?  Or what?

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It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions

Yes, you do.  You embrace the parts you like and attempt to explain away the parts that you don't.

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when the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.

Even if that's true (and with some people, it probably is), two wrongs do not make a right.

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Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

Which magic decoder ring do you use to figure out which ones are which?  (I don't recommend the one from "A Christmas Story", unless you want to find out that Jesus wants you to drink your Ovaltine.)

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Thing is, we are not making GOD in our own image

I don't think I've met a Christian yet who didn't do this.  They probably exist, but I've never known any.

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you guys are the ones who are trying to conform GOD to your own image and what you think GOD should be or should have done.

That's not quite accurate -- for one thing, we don't think Yahweh exists, so we can't talk about "what he should have done", except in a speculative sense -- but it's close enough that I"m not concerned to dispute it.

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Or if GOD is real why...? Or why didn't GOD do this or ....?  If GOD is all powerful and almighty then why can't He...?

Indeed.

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So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...?

Certainly not the Yahweh that Christians profess to believe in.  He is not all-wise and all-loving, for example; most human beings are more loving than Yahweh is, and many are wiser as well.

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You claim that we Christians are gullible and weak minded. Thinking we sound ridiculous and believe in fairy tales...

If you were reading any other book in which one of the characters was a talking snake, you would presuppose that the book was fiction of some kind.  Why don't you do the same thing with the bible?

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Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.

Nope.  Nice strawman, though.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?
Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?
It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

*Facepalm*

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Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Then why did jesus allow himself to be sacrificed if he knew that god thought it better to do what was right ? Is sacrificing the life of the innocent for the guilty morally right ? No...so then jesus chose the inferior, selfish and abhorant way over the right way. According to what you've said, jesus chose to disregard what was believed about the OT god's desire and instead offered himself as a sacrifice and martyr for his new, and heretical to the Jews, religion.   
 
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It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions, when the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.
Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

It is said...because it is so.

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Thing is, we are not making GOD in our own image, you guys are the ones who are trying to conform GOD to your own image and what you think GOD should be or should have done. Or if GOD is real why...? Or why didn't GOD do this or ....?  If GOD is all powerful and almighty then why can't He...?

That's right "you" are not...but you are definitely imitating and parroting the primitive ignoramuses from our early ancestors that did create all the anthropomorphic gods out of fear and lack of knowledge.

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So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...? You claim that we Christians are gullible and weak minded. Thinking we sound ridiculous and believe in fairy tales...

You are weak and gullible. But the fact is though that you are the ones who feel that god doesn't meet your expectations. Have you ever prayed ? Then that's a sign that god is not meeting your expectations and that you must pray to him to get him to meet those demands. If you truly believe that a god is meeting all your needs and has a solid plan for your life, then why put these extra expectations on him ? Why would you tell an all knowing god to his face that he's falling short on what you feel you need and deserve when he has known for all eternity what you will be and need ?

I'm fully aware of the contradictory christian prayer doctrine says to pray without ceasing, and to pray believing, and to blah blah blah.... but it's still showing doubt on your part and putting unnecessary expectations on your omniscient god who shouldn't have to be asked for anything as it knows everything.

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Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.


 &) No, we do not have it all figured out Mr. sarcasm......However since individuals who are clear thinking and use logical reasoning do not believe such absurd things as the god-idea, then the idiot label for you and your kind is unfortunately correct :(
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline stuffin

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Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

This is big problem for Atheists.

Please define or clarify how we can tell which Verses, proclamations, testimonies, or stories in the Bible are literal and which should be interpreted as spiritual?

Or give us your magic decoder ring with instructions on how to use it.

Also, could you please elaborate on the bolded piece and provide a source where such a thing is written.
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Offline Omen

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It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

You just made this up in the absence of any support, rationalizing it away to presupposed confirmation bias.

Why would anyone take this as a serious intellectual answer for anything?

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You guys seem to think that GOD has some insatiable appetite for blood and that is just not the case.

Genesis 8:20
20: And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21: And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


The pitiful nature of your religious text is that it doesn't treat your god as if it actually were an omniscient and omnipotent super being, instead it is treated and presented as a puerile and primitive anthropomorphic projection.  The kind of thing you'd expect from illiterate nomads.

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Jesus said..

Irrelevant.  The context of the whole bible presents a condition far different than the delusional rationalization you try to use to satisfy your own cognitive dissonance.  The problem is that we don't have your cognitive dissonance, we don't have to engage in intellectual dishonesty to conform the belief to what we desire it to be rather than what it is at face value.

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It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions...

Case in point, YOU JUST DID.

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hen the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.

We read it for what it says, literally.

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Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

This is a fallacy called special pleading.  You're not demonstrating any intellectual means for which there is a requirement to take something as a metaphor vs as literal.  You're just inserting this specious qualification to dismiss away valid criticism, while offering no reasonable explanation.  You are essentially excusing yourself from responsibility and trying to project the intellectual dishonesty you use to rationalize biblical scripture upon others hypocritically.

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Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.

Can you explain why you just made up your own rationalizations to confirm what you wanted to believe and then pretended like you didn't?
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Offline Star Stuff

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Even some theists are waking up to this.

"The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed." (Bishop John Shelby Spong)



Shame on you for believing such a thing to be true.

True, but if he was a victim of childhood indoctrination, you can hardly blame him.

I can and do because he is an adult now.

I was a victim of child indoctrination myself...and am now deeply shamed and embarrassed to admit that I did hold these beliefs much too long and well into adulthood.

The time frame for when people should stop believing the god bullshit is about the same as that of Santa and the Tooth Fairy---around 7 yrs old ?  ;)

I too was a victim of childhood indoctrination, but most do not "wake up" from the false beliefs they are inculcated with because they never embrace the courage to look at said beliefs critically, in consort with intellectual honesty.  Most keep the blinders fixed well in place.  And it's understandable, because it's built-in to the entire package not to question, not to doubt, not to think; and all with the added threat of eternal torture after death.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Please define or clarify how we can tell which Verses, proclamations, testimonies, or stories in the Bible are literal and which should be interpreted as spiritual?

Also, could you please elaborate on the bolded piece and provide a source where such a thing is written.

This is a major stumbling block for me.  The omnipotent, all loving god who really wants us all to come to know him, has left as his one communication with his creation, a jumbled collection of confusing and contradictory books in a mixture of spiritual and allegorical and factual passages whose context (we are regularly told) requires careful examination of the history and customs of a minor tribe from more than two millennia ago.

Which, frankly, is not the best way of getting over a message so crucial to one's eternal salvation. 

It is certainly not beyond the wit of anything deserving of the title "god" to be able to produce - or cause to be produced - a manual of its instructions and wishes that required no context; that would be the same throughout the ages; and which would be the subject of little if any dissent - where each person reading it would take away exactly the same message.  That's the bare MINIMUM I would expect a god to be able to do.

So for this god to leave behind a single volume so prone to confusion and disagreement leads me to only two possible conclusions.

That the god in question deliberately made things difficult to understand - contradicting the book's own claims of him being all-loving and desirous of coming to know him...

...or that there is no god involved at all.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Star Stuff

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...I think is more important is to understand Jesus Christ first...

And just how does one go about that?  There wasn't one thing mentioned about him during his alleged life.  All we have are "wonder stories" as Robert M. Price put it (listen to this interview), written decades later.

I suggest that the Jesus you find is the one you want to find.
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Offline velkyn

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.
Highly amusing that your god likes meat?  Does God have a big dinner table?  And giant forks and knives?  And again your "understanding" is only ILY's wishful thinking.  But keep making things up, ILY, it helps pass the time and underline that all theists do it.

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Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Acctually whoever wrote the book of Hosea said this; JC only supposedly repeated it.  And again, actions speak louder than words, even in the bible.  There is no evidence of this god having mercy at all, and plenty of instances where this god demanded sacrifice.   The bible is nothing more than a poorly assembled set of books that contradict each other.
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« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 09:28:37 AM by velkyn »
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Offline ILOVEYOU

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...I think is more important is to understand Jesus Christ first...

And just how does one go about that?  There wasn't one thing mentioned about him during his alleged life.  All we have are "wonder stories" as Robert M. Price put it (listen to this interview), written decades later.

I suggest that the Jesus you find is the one you want to find.

LOL...

Anyway, in the same manner you would pursue something you really desired. W/ all of your heart.


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Excuse me guys but what did you have for dinner tonight...?

Did you eat any meat...?  Did you prepare it...? Was the aroma pleasing to you...?

It is also to my understanding that when an animal was prepared for sacrifice that the animal was very well taken care of and and done so in a very humane way. Mercifully.

As well as nothing was wasted inappropriately.

You guys seem to think that GOD has some insatiable appetite for blood and that is just not the case.

Jesus said GOD desired mercy not sacrifice.  To do what was right is better than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.

It is said that we Christians twist the scriptures to fit our personalized religions, when the very same people who scrutinize the scriptures do the very same thing they accuse us of doing.
Even you guys who take everything literally verbatim, when it is written that some things are not supposed to be taken literally but spiritually.

Thing is, we are not making GOD in our own image, you guys are the ones who are trying to conform GOD to your own image and what you think GOD should be or should have done. Or if GOD is real why...? Or why didn't GOD do this or ....?  If GOD is all powerful and almighty then why can't He...?

So if GOD doesn't meet your expectations, then He can't be GOD...? You claim that we Christians are gullible and weak minded. Thinking we sound ridiculous and believe in fairy tales...

Sure........... you've got it all figured out and we're all idiots.

Ohhhhhhhh Kaaaaaaaaay.
It is obvious to me the sacrifice of other peoples animals was meant for only one thing....feed the church leaders,without them having to do the work of raising the product....plain and simple
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