Author Topic: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?  (Read 8736 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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ALL life forms will die eventually. Saying that the punishment for sin is death[1] is meaningless.

Yes this is what we experience.  But is this all that's possible?

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Too bad that wasn't my question. As screwtape pointed out, he missed the mark and either accidentally or purposefully dodged it. I wanted to know why Yahweh once had an obsession for blood sacrifices and smelling animal carcasses and why this wasn't a problem for a sophisticated, moral man such as himself. Perhaps you have an answer for me, Jst?

There is only one logical conclusion to me.  God enjoyed the sacrifices because they provided temporary forgivness of sin and allowed him to commune with his worshipers.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

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If the forgiveness is temporary, is it really forgiveness?  I think you live in a fantasy. I know, I did too for many years, but that's due to childhood indoctrination.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 04:21:48 PM by Star Stuff »
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Offline One Above All

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Yes this is what we experience.  But is this all that's possible?

You're missing the point - your statement is moot. Even if it were true, since everyone and everything dies, we have no way of telling the difference between a "normal" death and a "sin-related" death.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online Zankuu

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There is only one logical conclusion to me. God enjoyed the sacrifices because they provided temporary forgivness of sin and allowed him to commune with his worshipers.

The entire concept of a scapegoat for sin is rather repulsive and it is the farthest thing from logical that I can imagine. I can't think of a more cult-ish thought: burning goat flesh to get intimate with his followers. How is that logical and not sick? Come on, Jst, you're far too educated to believe that.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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If the forgiveness is temporary, is it really forgiveness?

Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.  This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.  Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.

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You're missing the point - your statement is moot. Even if it were true, since everyone and everything dies, we have no way of telling the difference between a "normal" death and a "sin-related" death.

This is like saying that because you cannot see the punishment then it must not occur.  Or are you saying that if it is punishment then no man can tell if his death is punishment?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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The entire concept of a scapegoat for sin is rather repulsive

Because you find it repulsive does not change anything. 

The Bible's justice is "eye for eye, life for life".  That is perfect justice.  God is more than just love.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

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Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.

So this deity of yours set up a system of forgiveness which, he knew would not be enough in the long haul?  Does that sound like the creator of the universe?   I don't think you've looked at all this critically.



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This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.

So why didn't your deity do that right after the original sin and save all the trouble?




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Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.

Why?

If you wronged me, then apologized, how would you react if I said "I'd forgive you but I don't have a son to kill."



Hey, pal, I know the routine. I was once as hypnotized as you.  It's insane.
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Offline One Above All

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This is like saying that because you cannot see the punishment then it must not occur.

No. It's like saying that because you can't tell the difference between punishment and an inevitable event, then positing about the former is irrelevant.

If I told you that the punishment for murder was rainbows, how would that even begin to be a relevant issue?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline One Above All

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The Bible's justice is "eye for eye, life for life".  That is perfect justice.

No, it's really not. What you call "perfect justice" is no more than a hateful belief that will lead to self-destruction.

God is more than just love.

You misspelled "God isn't".
EDIT: BTW, I wasn't aware that you were a muslim. You do know that you're supposed to follow the Qur'an and not the Bible, right?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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So this deity of yours set up a system of forgiveness which, he knew would not be enough in the long haul?  Does that sound like the creator of the universe?   I don't think you've looked at all this critically.

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So why didn't your deity do that right after the original sin and save all the trouble?

He did purpose to do this right after the original sin.  This is shown by the first prophesy in the Bible. 

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” (Genesis 3:15)

He set up the animal sacrifices as a temporary covering until such time he was ready to bring forth this "seed" which proved to be his Jesus.

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Why?

If you wronged me, then apologized, how would you react if I said "I'd forgive you but I don't have a son to kill."

If I wrong you and you forgive me then that's all well and good.  But that is not justice.  That is forgiveness.  To not demand perfect justice would mean he is not a perfect being.  But he did, lovingly, provide a way for forgiveness to be extended while at the same time he satisfied the requirements of perfect justice.

And why was a perfect man required?  Because a perfect man is required to pay for the sin of a perfect man.  An imperfect man could never provide the value required to meet the demands of justice.  It must be a corresponding sacrifice.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

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I am convinced now that children should not be subjected to the frightful mess of the Christian religion. If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of societies admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible?  (Ruth Hurmence Green)
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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If the concept of a father who plots to have his own son put to death is presented to children as beautiful and as worthy of societies admiration, what types of human behavior can be presented to them as reprehensible?

It is also a concept that the child willlingly did this.  Let's say father and son are on a battlefield together and they see a grenade land among a group of soldiers.  Let's say the father is not physically able to get to the grenade and he instructs his son to throw himself on the grenade to save those other men.  Let's say the son agrees with his father and throws himself on the grenade and it explodes, killing him.  All the other men are safe because of this.

Are the father and son heroes or are they evil?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

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Cute (and repulsive) analogy designed for 8 yr olds.  Why does your hallucination require such contortions of reason?

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Preposterous.  Ridiculous.  Juvenile.  Why on earth would an omnipotent deity need to place punishment anywhere, let alone on himself?  Why could he not just say, "fuggitaboudit"?

Preaching removed
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:19:41 PM by Graybeard »

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Cute (and repulsive) analogy designed for 8 yr olds.  Why does your hallucination require such contortions of reason?

So you cannot give an answer?  The analogy is correct.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Star Stuff

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Unfortunately the evidence doesn't bear out any of your wild, fantastical assertions.

What you are doing is tantamount to regurgitating a theme from the Lord of the Rings trilogy - as though it were true!  Now see how completely delusional you are.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Well if you are going to judge the beliefs then judge them for what they are and not what you want to say they are.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online Zankuu

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He set up the animal sacrifices as a temporary covering until such time he was ready to bring forth this "seed" which proved to be his Jesus.

Why does Yahweh play Shakespeare and drag out this unnecessary drama? If your god really wanted to forgive people for their wrongdoings he would just forgive them, not have them cut the throats of lambs.

To not demand perfect justice would mean he is not a perfect being.  But he did, lovingly, provide a way for forgiveness to be extended while at the same time he satisfied the requirements of perfect justice.

Again, an all powerful and perfect being would just forgive- it wouldn't make up some disgusting ritual involving sprinkling the blood of animals on altars. That's silly and barbaric. The Judeo-Christian religion sure is obsessed with sacrifices.

It is also a concept that the child willingly did this.  Let's say father and son are on a battlefield together and they see a grenade land among a group of soldiers.  Let's say the father is not physically able to get to the grenade and he instructs his son to throw himself on the grenade to save those other men.  Let's say the son agrees with his father and throws himself on the grenade and it explodes, killing him.  All the other men are safe because of this.

Are the father and son heroes or are they evil?

Wait a second... the father takes out a grenade, pulls the pin, and lobs it in his own platoon's foxhole, then tells his son to jump on it? He's evil.

I have a more accurate analogy for you, tell me what you think:

There once lived a man who bred dogs. Over the years he worked to produce a breed of strong, intelligent and loyal animals. At last he developed a unique breed which, he liked to think, reflected the best of his own nature. And for awhile all was good. Then the animals began fighting. They fought among themselves and with other breeds. They fought and injured and killed, often for trivial reasons, sometimes for no reason at all. Worst of all in the breeder's eyes, the dogs became disobedient, sometimes not even recognizing him as their master. Because he could not bear their savagery, nor endure their arrogant disobedience, the breeder decided he must destroy them. He planned to kill them all.

Then he had another idea. He loved his dogs so much, in spite of their unremitting savagery, that he decided to put his young son in the dog pen as a model of innocence and virtue, to save the dogs from themselves. Surely, in the presence of such an obvious example, a teacher sent by their master, the dogs would be humbled and would learn to reject their monstrous ways. But in his heart the breeder knew this would not happen. He knew the dogs would kill his son. And they did. The dogs ripped away the young man's clothing and tore him to bloody pieces.

The insane breeder continued to love his dogs, and he told them, "Any of you who will believe this was my son, whom I allowed to be killed for your sakes, I will not punish, but I will bring you to live with me in my house." -Anonymous

Is he evil, Jst?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline jetson

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One Word- LOVE

Because GOD loves us.

Also, no one can boast. To understand that He is GOD and there is none other.

GOD lived as one of us. Gave up everything. Felt the pain and the heartache, the joy and the sorrows we do. He would get tired, hungry, and everything. A still lived a perfect and sinless life,  not living for Himself but gave all of Himself and served others. Teaching the truth.

Even on the cross, He never uttered one hateful word to His accusers and suffered the pain and agony until death. Praying for them. He loved them. He loved them so much.

The Lord did this. It is finished.

He lived perfectly as as to the commands He had given us. Not breaking one. None of us can say the same.

And basically, Jesus taught to love GOD to the best of your ability and understanding. To love your neighbor as yourself and to love each other as He loved us. Giving a perfect example. To forgive, just as He forgives us.

His righteous judgment is coming. And His gift of grace still stands for those who will accept it and turn to The Lord. Only The Lord knows and on His perfect timing His judgment will come.

Jesus Christ is The King of Kings and The Lord of Lords.

There is no other Savior. Beside The Lord, there is no Savior.

ILOVEYOU,

Preaching is not allowed.  This is your last warning.

Jetson

Offline ILOVEYOU

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<snip> Idiocy removed.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:24:30 PM by Alzael »

Offline jetson

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Don't threaten me with a good time...!

Go back to your hole.

I'm sure you feel all better after this ridiculous reply.  The mods will now decide which of your posts are allowed to be seen by the members.  Enjoy!

Offline Alzael

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Well if you are going to judge the beliefs then judge them for what they are and not what you want to say they are.

Except that even you don't know that they are what you say they are.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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If the forgiveness is temporary, is it really forgiveness?

Temporarily.  The animal sacrifices were simply not valuable enough to provide permanant forgiveness.  This is why he sent a perfect man and he was sacrificed.  Only the sacrifice of a perfect man could provide the full value required for forgiveness.

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You're missing the point - your statement is moot. Even if it were true, since everyone and everything dies, we have no way of telling the difference between a "normal" death and a "sin-related" death.

This is like saying that because you cannot see the punishment then it must not occur.  Or are you saying that if it is punishment then no man can tell if his death is punishment?
First off how could you know Jesus was perfect,the writings of people who never met or knew him are NOT proof he was perfect. Secondly when did animal sacrifice needed by a god any god? its just plain stupid....unless you are the church leaders and animal sacrifice is a great way to feed yourself without all that tedious work. Third......there is NO need to believe in Jesus as your lord and saviour because his death either saved everybody and I MEAN everybody or his sacrifice of himself to himself to save ALL humanity was pointless
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Star Stuff

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Time for one of my favourites:





God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Why does Yahweh play Shakespeare and drag out this unnecessary drama? If your god really wanted to forgive people for their wrongdoings he would just forgive them, not have them cut the throats of lambs.

Again, an all powerful and perfect being would just forgive- it wouldn't make up some disgusting ritual involving sprinkling the blood of animals on altars. That's silly and barbaric. The Judeo-Christian religion sure is obsessed with sacrifices.

Well the evidence is to the contrary to your opinion.  You have nothing to base your claims on other than your own imagination.

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The insane breeder continued to love his dogs, and he told them, "Any of you who will believe this was my son, whom I allowed to be killed for your sakes, I will not punish, but I will bring you to live with me in my house." -Anonymous

Is he evil, Jst?

This is an incorrect analogy.  The sacrifice of his son had no effect on the animals personally.  Furthermore, the sacrifice of a human for a dog is not a corresponding sacrifice.  The human has too much value.

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Wait a second... the father takes out a grenade, pulls the pin, and lobs it in his own platoon's foxhole, then tells his son to jump on it? He's evil.

No, the father does not throw the grenade.  You just state inacurracy after inaccuracy.

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Except that even you don't know that they are what you say they are.

Yes, actually I do.  You are speaking for yourself.  If you can't prove me wrong, you just make baseless claims.  If all you can do is say noone knows what they're talking about then really you are saying that you cannot refute what anyone says.

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First off how could you know Jesus was perfect,the writings of people who never met or knew him are NOT proof he was perfect. Secondly when did animal sacrifice needed by a god any god? its just plain stupid....unless you are the church leaders and animal sacrifice is a great way to feed yourself without all that tedious work. Third......there is NO need to believe in Jesus as your lord and saviour because his death either saved everybody and I MEAN everybody or his sacrifice of himself to himself to save ALL humanity was pointless

I believe it by faith, based on my knowledge the Bible has not lied to me yet.  All you can offer is argument formed from your imagination of how you think a God should act.


There is no content here for any argument.  If you don't believe in God fine.  But if the God of the Bible exists, and he does, then do not presume to know anything about him.  If you claim to know anything about him then show me something other than how you say God MUST be.  Remember I am the theist.  I think that makes me a bit more qualified.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Add Homonym

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[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


So, mate: The Bible has not lied to you? Wanna make up some potassium cyanide? Wanna heal some people? Wanna play with an Australian inland Taipan?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


So, mate: The Bible has not lied to you? Wanna make up some potassium cyanide? Wanna heal some people? Wanna play with an Australian inland Taipan?

Have you never read where it is written:

"But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe."  (1 Corinthians 13:8-11)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Add Homonym

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[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


So, mate: The Bible has not lied to you? Wanna make up some potassium cyanide? Wanna heal some people? Wanna play with an Australian inland Taipan?

Have you never read where it is written:

"But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe."  (1 Corinthians 13:8-11)

Right. So, you are saying that Jesus is a childish exaggerator. Good to hear it straight from you.

We do know that Paul is the enemy of the Judaised gospel (Mark/Matthew). I don't see how you can plausibly see a Bible contradiction as proof that the Bible has not lied. Do you have a sophisticated reason as to why Jesus would say those things, if Paul says he was only joking?

I await a further insult to my intelligence.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Star Stuff

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If you can't prove me wrong, you just make baseless claims.

It is you who is making claims (and very wild, supernatural, unobservable ones at that), and therefore it is you who is saddled with providing the good evidence and reason for your claims.  If someone says  "There's an invisible elf on my shoulder - ha-ha, you can't prove me wrong, I am right!" Surely your mind hasn't been so completely turned to stone not to know that.



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I believe it by faith...

Yes, we know that.  What you might want to consider is if "faith" (believing things for which there is no evidence) is a good way or a poor way of understanding our world and reality.  I suggest that it is the worst way to know things.  Only lies require faith.

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...based on my knowledge the Bible has not lied to me yet.

That's because you haven't for one moment looked at your belief system and/or bible critically.  Please list the books you've read which are counter to your beliefs.  If you think the bible is "perfect", maybe start here.



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All you can offer is argument formed from your imagination of how you think a God should act.

Ironically, that it precisely what you're doing, and it sadly revealing.

And that what we call god's justice is only man's idea of what he would do if he were god.  (Elbert Hubbard)


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Remember I am the theist.  I think that makes me a bit more qualified.

No more qualified as a believer and "expert" in astrology.

"Being a christian apologist is like being a professional air guitarist"

You also fail to appreciate that many of us here were christians, myself included (yes a "true" christian) for a quarter century.  I woke up.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 08:37:41 AM by Star Stuff »
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