Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?

[Omen]

Either your god is omniscient and omnipotent, or it is not.

Well I would imagine that if he is all powerful then he can choose not to know certain things.

This is a logical contradiction, sort of like a god creating a rock so heavy it can't lift it.  Are you seriously entertaining this as a response?

For example someone watching a prerecorded sports match has the option to watch the final minutes first in order to know the outcome. But he does not have to start that way. Who could criticize him if he chose to watch the entire match from the beginning?

This has no relevant analogy to being omniscient.  An omniscient being already knows the outcome in all situations, before watching the tape.

Why do you even think this is a rational answer?

Another example from the Bible is Abraham.  When Abraham went to the point of sacrificing his son, God said, "NOW I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me. -- Genesis 22:12

LMAO, this just proves that your god isn't omniscient and therefore non-existent, you've just disproven your own god.

On the other hand, there were also occasions when the bad conduct of certain individuals caused God to "feel hurt." Would he have felt such pain if he had long known what they would do? — Psalm 78:40, 41; 1 Kings 11:9, 10

How can an omniscient and omnipotent being behave in a way that is finite, a lesser condition from being absolute, and still be called a god?

Thus it is logical to conclude that the all-wise God did not exercise his ability of foreknowledge to know in advance that our first parents would sin. He was not so foolish as to embark on a bizarre venture, using his ability to know the outcome in advance and then staging a mere rerun of what he already knew.

Non-sequitur, a fallacy and thus NOT logical.  An omniscient/omnipotent being can't choose to not know something it already knows, this contradicts its own omniscience and omnipotence.  Either it is omnipotent/omniscience or it isn't, there is only a yes or no answer to the problem.  You're trying to weasel out of this with horrifically stupid rationalizations that only demonstrate that you don't actually know what logic or what a valid inference in a discussion might be.

[NATHAN]

My question to those sorts of responses are, "if this god is so into tying themes together, what about the blood theme?  If blood's so important, why didn't this god simply take a drop of Adam's blood, rather than his rib?" 

The answer is that men and women are to walk side by side in life.  Men and women are equal! 
 
Just think of all the jokes if god took Eve from Adam's gluteous maximus.   

[Omen]

The answer is that men and women are to walk side by side in life.  Men and women are equal! 

Women are required to submit to a mans authority, cannot teach men, and must remain silent in church.

This is not equal treatment.

[velkyn]

The answer is that men and women are to walk side by side in life.  Men and women are equal!

wow, way to be totally ignorant of your bible.   Alas, for you, Nathan, that many of us have read it and know exactly what it says. 


 

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Either your god is omniscient and omnipotent, or it is not.

Well I would imagine that if he is all powerful then he can choose not to know certain things.

This is a logical contradiction, sort of like a god creating a rock so heavy it can't lift it.  Are you seriously entertaining this as a response?

There are different definitions of omniscient:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

"Some modern theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures."

The above is from Wikipedia.

So no.  Jehovah being selective does not prove he is not a god.  I believe this addresses your entire post above.  If not please let me know.

[One Above All]

If omniscience is even POSSIBLE, then free will is not.

[NATHAN]

If omniscience is even POSSIBLE, then free will is not.

What?   That is not logical. God does not have free will humans do.  Lucifer is not omniscience only god is.  You can't look at god with human intellect and understand every process (biological, physical, chemical) occuring at one time.  Silly human omnisicence is for God

[One Above All]

Knowing everything means that everything is pre-determined. Free will is not possible.

[velkyn]

There are different definitions of omniscient:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

the theist attempt at making dirty mean sterile.  This is the classic attempt of a theist to depower their god since it fails to live up to what the bible promises.  There was no such excuses uses by the bible's authors, only now when this god fails do modern theologians have create this new nonsense.

and I've already shown how your bible and your god, if the bible is accurate, is not interested in free will at all.  Or do you want to agree your bible is full of nonsense and theists like yourself pick and choose what they want to believe?

[velkyn]

God does not have free will humans do. 

hmmm, not much of a god.  more like a vending maching for Christians who want something.

[NATHAN]

 [/quote] wow, way to be totally ignorant of your bible.   Alas, for you, Nathan, that many of us have read it and know exactly what it says.
[/quote]

Omen and velkyn you may have read but you certainly don't understand thus you problem with it.  That is a true shame. 

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
 

22-Submit to each other.
23-24 wives submit to your husband. 
25-32 is talking about edifying your wife.  Jesus is not talking literal church he is talking about marriage and our relationship with God.
Men seek respect while women seek love.  it is the way he made us. 

[Omen]

There are different definitions of omniscient:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.

This contradicts abrahamic theology:

Repeatedly the bible expresses the claim that bible god knows what you do before you do and in fact knows 'everything'.  It even claims to predict future events that a god would have to know all things prior to those events that would occur.  So we can quite easily reject this out of hand as not being applicable in the biblical sense.

So no.  Jehovah being selective does not prove he is not a god.  I believe this addresses your entire post above.  If not please let me know.

And yes it disproves your god claim because it contradicts your own theology.

[Omen]

Inherent omniscience is also in contradiction by taking it to its absurd conclusion.

If a god can choose to know and instantly know, then where does the knowledge it attained come from but beyond its own omnipresence in reality.  If it is limited by 'inherent' omniscience, then it is NOT omnipresent because if it were it would already know everything, and it doesn't know what you're doing if it can't see you as if you could simply hide behind a brick wall.  You could even fool the god by lying to it, relying on nothing more than its arbitrary inherent omniscience not being used at that time.

If it is neither omniscient in the true sense of knowing all and not omnipresent in the ability to be aware of all things at once, then how can it be omnipotent?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

There are different definitions of omniscient:

inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.

the theist attempt at making dirty mean sterile.  This is the classic attempt of a theist to depower their god since it fails to live up to what the bible promises.  There was no such excuses uses by the Bible's authors, only now when this god fails do modern theologians have create this new nonsense.  Because a belief becomes illogical does not prove God does not exist. 

Yes, without assuming God does not exist, this is a theists attempt to understand God.  It is only logical that beliefs have to change as more and more knowledge is learned.  To do otherwise would not be productive and would imply that we already know everything about God.  I don't believe science is any different.

I've already shown how your bible and your god, if the bible is accurate, is not interested in free will at all.

You have done nothing of the sort.  Using the Bible, I have shown there have been things that God did not know.  Where does the Bible teach otherwise?

theists like yourself pick and choose what they want to believe?

It is hard to do otherwise.  Scientists do this a lot too.  But my beliefs are not unique to me.  If God does exist then obviously all theists can't be correct.  In fact, the Bible shows that the vast majority are not.  But for sure the correct religion will be one that will be reasonable and be logical if it is from a loving god.  If a belief becomes illogical it does not necessarily disprove God.  It could also be the belief was/is wrong. 

[Omen]

Omen and velkyn you may have read but you certainly don't understand thus you problem with it.  That is a true shame. 

You apparently haven't read your own bible, like so many believers.

1 Timothy 2:11
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

This christian verse means exactly what it states and is further reinforced by both other biblical references and the most famous christian apologist commentary in existence:

Barnes notes:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Let the woman learn in silence - Listen attentively to instruction, without attempting to teach in public;

Gills notes:

Let the woman learn in silence,.... The apostle goes on to give some other instructions to women, how they should behave themselves in public worship, in the church of God; he would have them be learners and not teachers, sit and hear, and learn more of Christ, and of the truth of the Gospel, and to maintain good works; and he would have them learn in silence, and not offer to rise and speak, under a pretence of having a word from the Lord, or of being under an impulse of the Spirit of the Lord, as some frantic women have done; and if they should meet with anything, under the ministry of the word, they did not understand, or they had an objection to, they were not to speak in public, but ask their own husbands at home

Both christian theologians/apoligst reference 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 to support their case, for what the bible says exactly what it says:

1 Corinthians 14:33
33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Barnes commentary:

And if they will learn anything - If anything has been spoken which they do not understand; or if on any particular subject they desire more full information, let them inquire of their husbands in their own dwelling. They may there converse freely; and their inquiries will not be attended with the irregularity and disorder which would occur should they interrupt the order and solemnity of public worship.

For it is a shame - It is disreputable and shameful; it is a breach of propriety. Their station in life demands modesty, humility, and they should be free from the ostentation of appearing so much in public as to take part in the public services of teaching and praying. It does not become their rank in life; it is not fulfilling the object which God evidently intended them to fill. He has appointed people to rule; to hold offices; to instruct and govern the church; and it is improper that women should assume that office upon themselves. This evidently and obviously refers to the church assembled for public worship, in the ordinary and regular acts of devotion. There the assembly is made up of males and females, of old and young, and there it is improper for them to take part in conducting the exercises. But this cannot be interpreted as meaning that it is improper for females to speak or to pray in meetings of their own sex, assembled for prayer or for benevolence; nor that it is improper for a female to speak or to pray in a Sunday School. Neither of these come under the apostle's idea of a church. And in such meetings, no rule of propriety or of the Scriptures is violated in their speaking for the edification of each other, or in leading in social prayer. It may be added here, that on this subject the Jews were very strenuous, and their laws were very strict. The Rabbis taught that a woman should know nothing but the use of the distaff, and they were specially prohibited from asking questions in the synagogue, or even from reading. See Lightfoot. The same rule is still observed by the Jews in the synagogues.

Gills commentary:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And if they will learn anything,.... If they are desirous of learning anything in relation to doctrine, duty, or discipline, and of improving their knowledge of divine things, which is very commendable in them; if any difficulty arises in their minds whilst hearing the word, which they want to have removed, or any question to ask for information sake,

let them ask their husbands at home; privately, when retired from the public assembly; for though men might ask one another concerning this, and the other point, in the church, as was usual in the synagogue worship, to which this church at Corinth in many things conformed; yet women were not allowed this freedom, and even in things which belonged to women to do; as for instance, making the cake of the first of their dough, which was to be an heave offering to the Lord, the men were to teach the women at home how, and when to separate it from the rest (d). So the apostle directs women, when they wanted to be informed about any point, to apply to their husbands at their own houses, if they were such as were capable of instructing them; if not, they might apply to other men that were Christian men, and men of knowledge, especially to the prophets, pastors, and teachers of the church, at their habitations:

for it is a shame for women to speak in the church; it is a shame to themselves, as being contrary to the natural modesty and bashfulness of the sex, and a shame to the church, to the non-members of it, and especially to the elders, and more experienced part of it, to be taught and directed by a woman; it is a disgrace to herself and sex, as betraying uncommon pride and vanity, and an unnatural boldness and confidence; and a disgrace to the church to be under such a ministry and conduct.

The fact is, women are second class citizens culturally in christianity.  Culture is informed by religious traditions and practices, the knowledge of which is handed down from authoritarian figure heads who oversee the cultural compliance of an entire community.  Women were on the 3rd ring of this social and cultural structure, where their husbands, and then the men of god ( like priests ) are above them in all things.

[Omen]

Yes, without assuming God does not exist, this is a theists attempt to understand God.  It is only logical that beliefs have to change as more and more knowledge is learned.

But your beliefs are claimed in the absence of knowledge and only changed when a shameful contradiction comes up.

  To do otherwise would not be productive and would imply that we already know everything about God.  I don't believe science is any different.

No, nothing in science claims to know something in the absence of evidence and then change when evidence is available.  The default position is not knowing.

You have done nothing of the sort.  Using the Bible, I have shown there have been things that God did not know.  Where does the Bible teach otherwise?

Everywhere.

Job 37:16

    Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
    the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.

Psalm 147:5

    Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
    his understanding has no limit.

1 Samuel 2:3

    Talk no more so very proudly,
    let not arrogance come from your mouth;
    for the LORD is a God of knowledge,
    and by him actions are weighed.

Isaiah 55:9

    For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Job 28:24

    For he looks to the ends of the earth
    and sees everything under the heavens.

1 John 3:19-20

    By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Hebrews 4:13

    And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Isaiah 46:9

    I am God, and there is none like me,
    declaring the end from the beginning
    and from ancient times things not yet done.

Matthew 10:30

    But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Psalm 139:4

    Even before a word is on my tongue,
    behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.

What you're doing is not arguing for a god, you are instead reducing your god claim to an ever decreasing set of poorly made pleaded rationalizations.  It is a type of solipsism that allows anyone to claim anything.

[Omen]

Here's more:

1 John 3:20 - For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Hebrews 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

[Omen]

More:

Isaiah 40:28 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Psalm 147:5 ESV / 11 helpful votes

Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

Jeremiah 1:5 ESV / 10 helpful votes

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV / 10 helpful votes

“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Isaiah 40:13-14 ESV / 8 helpful votes

Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

1 Corinthians 2:11 ESV / 6 helpful votes

For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Matthew 10:30 ESV / 6 helpful votes

But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.

Jeremiah 23:24 ESV / 6 helpful votes

Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord.

Acts 1:24 ESV / 5 helpful votes

And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

1 John 3:20 ESV / 4 helpful votes

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Romans 8:29 ESV / 4 helpful votes

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Isaiah 42:9 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

Job 37:15-16 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Do you know how God lays his command upon them and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine? Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge,

Hebrews 4:13 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Romans 11:33-36 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

Job 36:26 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Behold, God is great, and we know him not; the number of his years is unsearchable.

Acts 15:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Known from of old.’

Proverbs 15:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes

The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good.

1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV / 2 helpful votes

“And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Acts 2:23 ESV / 1 helpful vote

This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Psalm 147:4-5 ESV / 1 helpful vote

He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure.

[Omen]

Many of these claims also include the condition of being omnipresent, which means god is everywhere and incapable of not knowing everything.  As I pointed out here, by deconstructing inherent omniscience.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22317.msg499756.html#msg499756

[Jstwebbrowsing]

But your beliefs are claimed in the absence of knowledge and only changed when a shameful contradiction comes up.

No this is not so.  If God does exist then there is ample evidence of him and his personality in creation.  Earthly humans come to mind.  Not only was man made to survive, but he was made to enjoy life.  And the earth contains numerous things to enjoy.  This tells about God's personality and is in line with the Bible.  The Bible is the ultimate proof that starts the ball rolling.

But your beliefs are claimed in the absence of knowledge and only changed when a shameful contradiction comes up.

You mean sort of like learning the earth is not flat?  So since the earth is not like I imagined it do I then conclude the earth does not exist?

No, nothing in science claims to know something in the absence of evidence and then change when evidence is available.  The default position is not knowing.

Again.  The flat earth.

Your knowledge of scriptural references seem very good.  But none of these prove that he is not selective when it comes to his dealings with humans.  I have shown that he has been.  So since the Bible disagrees with your definition of God, you conclude he does not exist?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

[velkyn]

wow, way to be totally ignorant of your bible.   Alas, for you, Nathan, that many of us have read it and know exactly what it says.
[/quote]

Omen and velkyn you may have read but you certainly don't understand thus you problem with it.  That is a true shame. [/quote]  No, I understand it quite well. I simply don't agree with your personal interpretation.  And let me remind you, many other christians don't either.  So please do tell how we can tell who the True Chrisitans are.   

22-Submit to each other.
23-24 wives submit to your husband.

I'm am my husband's partner and he is mine, such sad primitive nonsense. Pity your god is stuck in the Bronze age.   

25-32 is talking about edifying your wife.  Jesus is not talking literal church he is talking about marriage and our relationship with God.

   And one more interpretation that is Nate's own.  Nice magic decoder ring you got there, Nate. I teach my husband and he teaches me.  No one-way nonsense going on with us.

Men seek respect while women seek love.  it is the way he made us.

  ROFL.  That's hysterical and typical for a willfully ignorant person.  Sorry, Nate, I seek respect and love. I suspect that my friends here do that also.  It's so cute to see you making things up wholesale.  Such silly stories that your god makes people a certain way. 

[velkyn]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

really now?

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

always fun to google thingsn like this and watch the Christiansn disagree all over the internet. It's so cute when they try so hard to redefine words to excuse their nonsense.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

really now?

Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.

always fun to google thingsn like this and watch the Christiansn disagree all over the internet. It's so cute when they try so hard to redefine words to excuse their nonsense.

Fortunatley this argument has already been made for me:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050308a/article_01.htm

[Omen]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

Many of the same verses I quoted say and treat god as being omnipresent, just like they say and treat god as being omniscient.

This is incredibly dishonest of you.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Nathan I would like to help you out but saying God does not have free will is a huge leap for me.

But concerning headship I do not see it as a problem.  Because one does not agree with it does not make it wrong.  Organization requires leadership.  A family should be organized.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

Many of the same verses I quoted say and treat god as being omnipresent, just like they say and treat god as being omniscient.

This is incredibly dishonest of you.

Please see the article.

[Omen]

Fortunatley this argument has already been made for me:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20050308a/article_01.htm

It doesn't make an argument.

It just declares that it isn't true, ignores biblical verses that treat god as omnipresent and ignores the fact that omnipotence/omniscience logically necessitates omnipresence.

What in this link is supposed to be a valid argument for the position you're advocating?

Plus, the link embraces the idea of god being all known, which you previously rejected.  Are you now saying you agree that god is omniscient?

[Omen]

The Bible does not teach that he is omnipresent.

Many of the same verses I quoted say and treat god as being omnipresent, just like they say and treat god as being omniscient.

This is incredibly dishonest of you.

Please see the article.

And this changes your dishonesty.. how?

The article intentionally avoids references to the biblical god being omnipresent.  Why is that?