Author Topic: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?  (Read 7918 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #87 on: April 26, 2012, 09:07:34 AM »
This brings us back to god's justice being meaningless.  God's 'good' is defined tautologically, so that whatever god does is good, regardless if god does one thing or the total opposite of that thing.  Case in point:

1. God doesn't order people killed, God is good. 
2. God orders people killed, God is good.

If god is good in both situations, then is not good meaningless?
I can't wait to see what he has to say to that. Surely we will see some Bible Babble and some rationalization and special pleading and argument from incredulity, appeal to authority, etc etc. You've just been tearing this guy apart!
In fact the Bible shows that God IS worthy of our love.  The entire theme of the Bible is the vindication of God's name and his sovereignty.

It is 'love' in name only, no where does it describe anything that rationally applies to 'love' as we use it culturally.  God creates humans knowing that they will fall, then punishes them for failing to meet expectations he knew they could not, god then later kills all humans except for a few for again not meeting some expectation that god has to know that they could not meet, god then selects a few to be 'his' people who he leads on a genocidal war against other human beings, god creates rules where these select humans have to absolve themselves of being guilty of the original fall that they can't rationally/reasonably be guilty of and creates a loop hole in the rules where god has to send himself to sacrifice himself to himself to prevent himself from punishing people further.

This is purely psychotic.
And this too. How can people not see through an invisible man?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline NATHAN

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #88 on: April 26, 2012, 09:24:40 AM »
Ask baal he loved to see people tortured.  Islam is baal worship and they torture people every day.  We no longer need a blood sacrifice because of what Jesus is on the Cross. 

How did it work.  When Adam and eat from the tree they were given intellect.  With intellect came the knowledge of sin and all the short comings that come with humanity. 

It was like taking a two year old child and teaching him quantum physics. 

God gave man dominion over all animals and as they are for our use and created by god they were an acceptable offering to atone for our sins. 

I know the non-believers do not believe in sin.  But with Jesus we have grace.  His death on the cross provides those that believe eternal. 

Without Jesus we can never have a relationship with God. 


Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #89 on: April 26, 2012, 09:34:15 AM »
Hi, Nathan, welcome to WWGHA.  Be sure you're wearing your seat belt, the ride here can get bumpy.

Ask baal he loved to see people tortured.

You cannot ask ficitional characters anything.

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Islam is baal worship and they torture people every day.

Muslims worship Allah, not Baal.  And by the way, Allah is just their name for the same deity that you worship.

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We no longer need a blood sacrifice because of what Jesus is on the Cross.

So Jesus dying on the cross means we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore?  How does that work?  It makes no sense.

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How did it work.  When Adam and eat from the tree they were given intellect.  With intellect came the knowledge of sin and all the short comings that come with humanity.

Yes, we're familiar with the doctrine, thank you.

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It was like taking a two year old child and teaching him quantum physics.

Actually, it was more like taking a two-year-old child and teaching him right from wrong.  Interesting, by the way, that your bible says that that's a bad thing to do.

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I know the non-believers do not believe in sin.  But with Jesus we have grace.  His death on the cross provides those that believe eternal.

How do you know this?

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Without Jesus we can never have a relationship with God.

And I guess without Achilles, we can never have a relationship with Zeus, or something.  You won't find many people here who are terribly worried about the lack of either Zeus or Yahweh.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline NATHAN

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #90 on: April 26, 2012, 09:37:27 AM »
The latter, carrying out God's judgements is also not murder.

So, if I see someone working on the sabbath, I can kill them, and it's not murder.

If I kill two homosexuals its not murder.

I think you mean that if a governing body kills someone for some legalistic reason, it's not murder. You will notice that Christianity skips around a lot of issues, and one of them is warfare, and state sanctioned killings.

The bible makes the distinction that killing somebody "in secret" is the sin.

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

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I don't think you are as educated as you like to sound.

Would you like to specify that, and your own education, and how educated you sound?

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In fact the Bible shows that God IS worthy of our love.  The entire theme of the Bible is the vindication of God's name and his sovereignty.

That may be the theme, but it's not the effect.

You are wrong the bible talks about war and killing and murder. 

First of all war are at war with forces in this world and the Devil.  First of all killing someone in self defense is not murder it is self defense.  Murder as mentioned in the bible is premeditated.   There is a difference and if you can make the distinction then you can never understand the concept. 

His sovereignty is being proven by science everyday. What I mean is that the word of God is being proven medically, historically, and spiritually. 

Your failure to connect or desire to connect does not mean God is real.  Jesus preformed miracle after miracle and was crucified a few weeks later.  The hardening of one's heart is murder of one's self.

I have seen God's grace and power and mercy work in people's lives and my own.  Sometimes people are blind to Jesus just like people are color blind.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #91 on: April 26, 2012, 09:40:09 AM »
Jstwebbrowsing:

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As an example, imagine you have two children.  One loves and obeys you.  The other despises and rebels against you in addition to exhibiting destructive behavior.  For how long will you allow the wicked child to harm the other child before you take action?  What if the only way to protect the good child was to destroy the bad child?  Would you do that or would you allow the wicked child to destroy the good child?  Inevitably one must die.  Which do you choose?  And really if the wicked child is allowed to go on they will both die since the wicked child is also self-destructive.

Only a desperate person would come up with an analogy like that one.

Reality tells us that it's not the only way to deal with such a child.

This is extreme, unrealistic, and disturbing hypothetical nonsense...I wouldn't want to be your child.

Look, we all know that killing/murdering a rebellious child is a preposterous and immoral way to deal with them, and so your analogy fails, and most certainly does not get your god-idea off the hook in any way shape or form.

Your analogy fails with respect to god in that you conveniently forgot to mention that god "created" the children and didn't just "have" them, and that it created both of them with the same potential to reject it. This is of course malevolent of it in the first place since if it is devotion that it desires...why create something then that won't do so ?  And of course evil of it to then hold it against the one child when it rejects it because of the rejection possibility that god knowingly gave it.

If a god gave "free" choice to individuals then why is there a price to pay after the fact. Is his creation free or not ? If they're not free to choose rejection then there's no freedom at all and we live in a celestial dictatorship and are only living out a bogus and manipulated existence that serves the desires of the deity only. Face it Mack, your god wants billions to either be annihalated, as you put it, or tortured for eternity as most interpret it.

A better analogy for the god-idea would be that of a mafia boss who walks into your business which is on "his turf" and demands protection money of you to protect you from himself. Then puts a gun(hell/destruction doctrine) to your head and says "do it or else".

Carry on though...enjoy your meaningless, harmful, and mind wasting delusion.

 
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #92 on: April 26, 2012, 09:46:22 AM »
You are wrong the bible talks about war and killing and murder.

Boy, does it ever!  Most of it carried out at Yahweh's command, too.

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His sovereignty is being proven by science everyday. What I mean is that the word of God is being proven medically, historically, and spiritually.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong:

1)  Science has investigated the effects of prayer on healing.  It has been shown not to work.
2)  Many of the events described as historical in the bible are now known never to have occurred (no global flood and no exodus, to mention two of the "biggies").
3)  Science has not proven that anything "spiritual" even exists, let alone that it's Yahweh's version of it.

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Your failure to connect or desire to connect does not mean God is real.

That's certainly true...

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Jesus preformed miracle after miracle and was crucified a few weeks later.

Actually, the story says his ministry lasted about three years or so.  And in any event, there's no corroborating evidence for anything in the gospels.  For all we know, they could be completely fictional -- given what they report, that certainly seems a lot more likely than anything else.

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The hardening of one's heart is murder of one's self.

Skreepble flubblenurf is loofing keekly.  (That probably makes about as much sense to you as what you just said to me.)

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I have seen God's grace and power and mercy work in people's lives and my own.

Can you manage to cough up any proof?  You do realize that skeptics are not going to take you at your word, right?

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Sometimes people are blind to Jesus just like people are color blind.

You should know that most of the people on this forum are former Christians (and they weren't casual about it, either).  When they felt their faith fading, they became very distraught.  Most of them prayed and prayed and prayed for Yahweh to give them strength or to show them a sign or something, and Yahweh did not answer them.  Hence, they became atheists.  What do you think about that?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #93 on: April 26, 2012, 09:50:52 AM »
Ask baal he loved to see people tortured.  Islam is baal worship and they torture people every day.  We no longer need a blood sacrifice because of what Jesus is on the Cross. 

Wrong. We no longer need blood sacrifice, because we have decided not to do it. The Jews no longer do it, and it has nothing to do with Jesus.  For a long time, Judaism had been dwelling in the gutlessness of sacrificing hapless animals - pigeons, often bought on the temple steps. The Pharisaic movement, Jesus included, realised how pointless this was, and that people needed to return to core values rather than killing animals to gain God's favour.

Perhaps you have read the gospel of Mark? (I'm never sure if any Christian has read any part of the bible.)

[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
[33] And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
[34] And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

In it, Jesus, while he is alive, says that sacrifices are just a load of rubbish.

.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 10:03:06 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline NATHAN

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #94 on: April 26, 2012, 09:51:25 AM »
Hi, Nathan, welcome to WWGHA.  Be sure you're wearing your seat belt, the ride here can get bumpy.

Ask baal he loved to see people tortured.

You cannot ask ficitional characters anything.

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Islam is baal worship and they torture people every day.

Muslims worship Allah, not Baal.  And by the way, Allah is just their name for the same deity that you worship.

That is incorrect- Baal is a recorded deity worshiped and recorded  by non christian archaeologist. 
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We no longer need a blood sacrifice because of what Jesus is on the Cross.

So Jesus dying on the cross means we don't have to sacrifice animals anymore?  How does that work?  It makes no sense.
Sure it does- we are not just animals.  When God breathed life into Adam, He breathed His spirit into man.  We are not just mind body soul are also have the spirit of God which separates us from God.  See you thing we are a superior animal.  I see us a fallen species that is losing relationship with God. 

Why is that money, sex and what ever else we are into can only fulfill us for a period of time. But those that truly seek Jesus and follow him can be fulfilled. 

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How did it work.  When Adam and eat from the tree they were given intellect.  With intellect came the knowledge of sin and all the short comings that come with humanity.

Yes, we're familiar with the doctrine, thank you.

Quote
It was like taking a two year old child and teaching him quantum physics.

Actually, it was more like taking a two-year-old child and teaching him right from wrong.  Interesting, by the way, that your bible says that that's a bad thing to do.

Wrong,
We need to be taught right from wrong because we know have intellect. 

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I know the non-believers do not believe in sin.  But with Jesus we have grace.  His death on the cross provides those that believe eternal.

How do you know this?

Quote
Without Jesus we can never have a relationship with God.

And I guess without Achilles, we can never have a relationship with Zeus, or something.  You won't find many people here who are terribly worried about the lack of either Zeus or Yahweh.

I don't care about Zeus. LOL 

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #95 on: April 26, 2012, 09:56:18 AM »
Hi, Nathan, welcome to WWGHA.  Be sure you're wearing your seat belt, the ride here can get bumpy.

Nathan, please learn to use the quoting function.  Your response as it is written is difficult to read and therefore difficult to respond to.  There is also a "Preview" button below your composition window to show you what your post will look like before you post it.  Thank you.
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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #96 on: April 26, 2012, 09:59:02 AM »
That is incorrect- Baal is a recorded deity worshiped and recorded  by non christian archaeologist.

I know that Baal is a "recorded deity".  It's just not the deity that Muslims worship, is all I'm saying.

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Why is that money, sex and what ever else we are into can only fulfill us for a period of time. But those that truly seek Jesus and follow him can be fulfilled.

Objection.  Assumes facts not in evidence.

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I don't care about Zeus. LOL

And I don't care about Yahweh.  LOL
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #97 on: April 26, 2012, 10:00:24 AM »
You are wrong the bible talks about war and killing and murder. 

The bible talks about a lot of stuff, but....

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First of all war are at war with forces in this world and the Devil.  First of all killing someone in self defense is not murder it is self defense.

You may not have realised this, being a Christian, and having not read the bible, but there are two moralities within Christianity:

(1) The laws for Israel, which have no aspirations of getting a person into heaven, because they don't believe in one.
(2) The laws of Jesus Christ, which are super-duper laws, designed to get us into heaven.

Jesus' super duper laws state that you should love your enemy, and your neighbour.

Killing anyone does not usually satisfy the criterion of loving them (as you would love yourself), unless you kill yourself straight after killing them. Therefore, if you kill your enemy, you have failed Jesus' super duper laws, and will not go to heaven.

Jesus also says: "resist not evil". This is one of his super duper laws. Therefore, if you react to any enemy with aggression, you are not going to go to heaven.
.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 10:04:22 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #98 on: April 26, 2012, 10:04:14 AM »
people are blind to Jesus just like people are color blind.


Ah ! But not so quick my little deluded religite....those who are colour blind may not see the colour of something, but at least they see the reality and evidence of the thing that is indeed there.

jesus has neither colour or substance and is nowhere to be found.

I'd rather be colour blind and not see something that is there, than have full sight and see something that is not actually there.  ;)
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Offline Omen

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2012, 10:11:52 AM »
You are wrong the bible talks about war and killing and murder. 

He is absolutely right, the bible justifies murder by devaluing human life; its not murder when you kill someone that deserves it.  The people who do not believe are evil after all, just like you said here:

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First of all war are at war with forces in this world and the Devil.

There is an incredibly thin line between justified killing because one imagines you're motivated by a supernatural agency or just murder for murders sake.  This is made worse by the fact that much of your dehumanizing qualifications require unjustified and nonsensical beliefs in supernatural agents, it is literally inseparable from arbitrarily defining what humans are worth of equal value with yourself and what humans are not. 

Considering the bible viciously defines all humans who do not believe using every pejorative imaginible, then it is not a far leap to killing those people who are after all.. your enemy and the forces of the devil by their lack of belief in your myths at face value.

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His sovereignty is being proven by science everyday. What I mean is that the word of God is being proven medically, historically, and spiritually. 

This is a non-sequitur, a fallacy.  It begs the question, because it doesn't adequately answer itself beyond being a blank unjustified claim.

How is it being proven?

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Your failure to connect or desire to connect does not mean God is real.  Jesus preformed miracle after miracle and was crucified a few weeks later.  The hardening of one's heart is murder of one's self.

This is a strawman.  No one has argued in the manner your characterizing, on the contrary they are pointing on inconsistencies in your own biblical context.  Your response is to plead ( through fallacy ) a qualification to demean someone through a character attribute, so that you can dismiss them out of hand.

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I have seen God's grace and power and mercy work in people's lives and my own.  Sometimes people are blind to Jesus just like people are color blind.

Again, dehumanizing qualification to dismiss other people out of hand that don't believe you at face value.

Why can't you bother to support your position using logic, reason, and evidence?

Why is it that your position is so nebulous as to motivate you to be so insecure about your beliefs that you have to demonize and dismiss people out of hand for not believing you at face value?

How could you ever be wrong if you assume a priori that everyone is wrong by fiat?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2012, 10:45:04 AM »
I don't care about Zeus. LOL

you also seem not to care about the truth.  You've made many unsuported claims.  Alas for you, I, and many others, do know what we are talkign about and that you claim things that are not true.  You make the same claims that other theists do, that your god is "obvious", that it's supported by science, etc.  If you want to support those claims, show us how this god of yours is being supported "medically, historically, and spiritually".  I know better than that, but I want to see if you think you can support such nonsense.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #101 on: April 26, 2012, 11:25:01 AM »

1 Corinthians 16:22
... Anathema Maranatha.

from Strong's:

Anathema:
Quote
1) a thing set up or laid by in order to be kept
  a) specifically, an offering resulting from a vow, which after being consecrated to a god was hung upon the walls or columns of the temple, or put in some other conspicuous place

2) a thing devoted to God without hope of being redeemed, and if an animal, to be slain; therefore a person or thing doomed to destruction
  a) a curse
  b) a man accursed, devoted to the direst of woes
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G331&t=KJV


Maranatha
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1) our Lord cometh or will come
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3134&t=KJV


I don't understand how those two words even fit together.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #102 on: April 26, 2012, 11:25:41 AM »
nathan,

Just so you are aware, you are comming off sounding like a crazy person.  Seriously.
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Offline NATHAN

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #103 on: April 26, 2012, 11:50:09 AM »
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Ah ! But not so quick my little deluded religite....those who are colour blind may not see the colour of something, but at least they see the reality and evidence of the thing that is indeed there.

jesus has neither colour or substance and is nowhere to be found.

That is the point. a color blind person can not see Red.  does that mean it does not exist.  No it is a frequency of light that is visible to most people.  Just because you do not see Jesus does not mean that others are seeing Jesus. 

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Can you manage to cough up any proof?  You do realize that skeptics are not going to take you at your word, right?

Can you prove I did not?  You need to check out Brownsville revival.  There are medically confirmed healings.  I can do the homework for you if you want.  All you skeptics are the same show me proof.  You do not want proof.  you want your pathetic self absorbed lives, that do not include anything other then meaninglessness.  If all we are is a biological part of the food chain then everything we do is of no value.  If everything we do is of no value then we have no value.  if we have no value other then our  total value in the mineral make up.  You're worth about a buck. 

It is sad when that what you think you are.  There is more to life and then meaninglessness and our own absorded desires.  Because if that is all we why are none believers worried about killing someone? 
Why do you care if God can heal an Amputee?
Why do you argue with believers that feel bad for you and pray for you? 
Why do judge us by the bible and to prove your intellect?
Why does is it that morality declines with intellect?

Becuase God has ingrained in us knowledge.  In that knowledge we know right from wrong whether we want to follow it or not.  You like to make fun of Christains and prove your superiority becuase in your mind you are right. When Christains pray  for people the Holy Spirit begins to convict the spirit that dwells within that person and the enemy does not like it.  The greek had all the intellect plus child rape, murder, and failed government system etc. 
Live in your world think you are right.  But there is a day that you will give an account of your life.  I pray that the deceptions of this world do not allow you to spend eternity in hell.  oh wait you don't believe in hell.  never mind have a good trip.

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #104 on: April 26, 2012, 11:58:25 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha

The original Greek meaning of "anathema", a gift or sacrifice to God, leads to the interpretation that "Anathema Maranatha" in a New Testament context could mean "a gift to God at the coming of our Lord." John Wesley in his Notes on the Bible comments that, "It seems to have been customary with the Jews of that age, when they had pronounced any man an Anathema, to add the Syriac expression, Maran - atha, that is, "The Lord cometh;" namely, to execute vengeance upon him." The Catholic Encyclopedia states, "Anathema signifies also to be overwhelmed with maledictions... At an early date the Church adopted the word anathema to signify the exclusion of a sinner from the society of the faithful; but the anathema was pronounced chiefly against heretics." The negative understanding of maranatha began to die out by the late 19th Century; Jamiesen, Fausset and Brown's commentary of 1871 separates Maranatha from anathema in the same way as modern scholars. However the traditional interpretation is still occasionally found among some Christians today.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #105 on: April 26, 2012, 12:01:20 PM »
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Can you manage to cough up any proof?  You do realize that skeptics are not going to take you at your word, right?

Can you prove I did not?

I don't need to.  Your claim, your burden to prove it.  (By the way, thank you for working on your quoting, it's much appreciated.)

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You need to check out Brownsville revival.  There are medically confirmed healings.

Lots of people have claimed to have proof of this, that, or the other supernatural phenomenon, but under scrutiny, the claim never holds up.  Nevertheless, if you want to give me some documentation to examine, I'll look it over.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #106 on: April 26, 2012, 12:08:15 PM »
There has been so much said that I don't even know where to begin.  I will attempt to answer the question of why God allows suffering.

Firstly you should note that the Bible does not say that God is the ruler of this world.  "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." -- 1 John 5:19. 

So why would God allow this?

How would a loving parent feel if he was publicly accused of lying to his children, abusing his authority over them, and withholding good things from them? Would he disprove those slanderous accusations by physically assaulting his accuser? No. In fact, by reacting in such a manner, he might give credibility to the accusations.  This is why God did not immediately destroy Satan.

When God created Adam and Eve he set them in a beautiful garden home.  The only command set for them was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.  If they did so the penalty was death.  By not eating from this tree Adam and Eve would demonstrate the trust of God and his ability to choose for them what was good and bad.

However, Satan told Eve that she surely would not die, completely contradicting what God had told them.  Hence Satan called God a liar.  Satan then continued by implying that God was withholding vital information from Eve.  Satan implied that humans should be able to decide for themselves what was good and bad.  Basically Satan accused God of being an unfit ruler and a bad Father.  Adam and Eve sided with Satan.

Obviously God could have destroyed them all immediately.  But as noted earlier such a retaliation would not have settled the issues that were raised.  Also keep in mind that myriads of angels also looked on.  In fact, many of them joined with Satan.  Should God be the ruler?  That is the question.

Through the years mankind has set up his own system of things along with numerous types of governments and moral standards.  What has been the result?  Are you happy with the state of the world?  Is the human family truly happy, peaceful, and united?  Certainly not.  Wars, famines, natural disasters, sickness, and death have plagued mankind, causing futility, pain, and groaning, just as the Bible states.  "For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now."  -- Romans 8:19-22.

Why has God not prevented all these tragedies?  This would not be justice.  God has not been behind the scenes preventing all the crimes and tragedies that result, directly or indirectly, from disobedience to him.  By doing so he would make it seem that rebelling against him doesn't have consequences and that Satan was correct.  Instead he is allowing humans to try their own hand at ruling.  And the result is far, far, far from a perfect world.  In other words it's been an epic failure.  We're still alive, for now, and that's about all I can say.  Well, at least some of us are.

However this does not mean that God has been doing nothing through the years.  But that is another discussion.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2012, 12:13:40 PM »
When God created Adam and Eve he set them in a beautiful garden home.  The only command set for them was not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.  If they did so the penalty was death.  By not eating from this tree Adam and Eve would demonstrate the trust of God and his ability to choose for them what was good and bad.

Like a parent puts a baby in a crib with a loaded gun and says "Now.. little timmy.. don't play with the gun."

Your omniscient/omnipotent god knew that they wouldn't meet his expectations and allowed it to happen anyway, like a parent knows a loaded gun near a baby might come to harm that baby.  Not to mention the asinine inclusion of something dangerous that had no necessary reason to be included, like the loaded gun in the babies crib.

Yet, your god is either so incompetent as to not know any differently, totally lacking in the imaginative ability to do it any differently, or.. more simply.. this never took place and your god doesn't exist.  This is called an argumentum ad absurdum, it takes a claim like the one you're making and follows it to its most absurd conclusion.  This is done by an analogy, demonstrating the fault and responsibility of your god in having created the conditions that were not necessary in the first place.

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So why would God allow this?

Your response doesn't answer the question, it just makes excuses in the face of the fact that an omnipotent and omniscient being can achieve any purpose without suffering.  It also doesn't avoid the fact that like a parent that places their child in harms away is guilty of abuse, your god created a situation it knew would cause harm and chose not to do anything to prevent it within your christian mythos. 

We are not indoctrinated into your dogmatic nonsense, we don't possess the cognitive dissonance you express by rationalizing towards a presumption that it must be right even in the face of absurd contradictions.  Your rationalizations themselves are repeated use of pleading fallacies, constantly constructing a new rationale to explain away the same problem over and over and over.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:19:47 PM by Omen »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #108 on: April 26, 2012, 12:13:57 PM »
There has been so much said that I don't even know where to begin.

This is a nearly-universal problem for believers who join us here at WWGHA.  If you find yourself becoming overwhelmed with responses, please don't hesitate to say that you're feeling swamped and that you need a little time to "catch your breath".  You may also choose to set aside discussion in the other forums and ask a member to participate in a debate, which would be a one-on-one thread between you and your opponent.  Simply ask the person you'd like to debate if they will debate you, and if they agree (which nearly everyone always does, by the way), a debate room will be created for you.

I'm curious, by the way... have you ever read "Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave"?  If so, what did you think of it?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #109 on: April 26, 2012, 12:15:09 PM »
Simply ask the person you'd like to debate if they will debate you, and if they agree (which nearly everyone always does, by the way), a debate room will be created for you.

I'm available. Just saying. &)
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Offline Omen

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2012, 12:23:56 PM »
Why has God not prevented all these tragedies?  This would not be justice.

Justice has no meaning and you have already agreed using your own words that god just literally makes it up as it wills.   It is only 'justice' by a label, it has no rational applicable meaning to 'justice' as we use it in the english language.  You're literally evoking a platitude, a platitude is a trite, meaningless, biased, or prosaic statement, often presented as if it were significant and original.  It is also a fallacy of pleading, because in special pleading the inserted qualification doesn't explain anything, its just a newly made qualification as if it need be considered without furthering criticism or review.

If god can deem 'justice' for something you can't rationally be responsible of and are guilty before you exist, then how do these terms have any meaningful context?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »
Like a parent puts a baby in a crib with a loaded gun and says "Now.. little Timmy.. don't play with the gun."

No they were not like babies in a crib.  They were fully capable of obeying the commandment.  And it's not like that tree was the only one in Eden.  The Bible admits that Eve was deceived, but it does not say that about Adam.

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Your omniscient/omnipotent god knew that they wouldn't meet his expectations and allowed it to happen anyway...

The Bible does show that he is omniscient in the sense that nothing can be hidden from him.  However the Bible does show that he is selective.  For example, God foretold that "a great crowd" of humans would survive the destruction of the wicked at the end of the present system of things.  Note however that he did not give an exact number for that crowd.  There are other examples of this.

His use of his power is the same.  For example, he held back from acting against Babylon until the time was right. "I kept exercising self-control," -- Isaiah 42:14.  The same principle applies to his use of foreknowledge and foreordination. God exercises self-control in order to respect the free will that he gave us.

God’s control of his powers does not limit him or make him imperfect. To the contrary, it shows his greatness, and it endears him to us, for it shows that his sovereignty truly is exercised not only with power and knowledge but also with love and respect for the free will of his intelligent creation.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2012, 12:43:20 PM »
Can you prove I did not?  You need to check out Brownsville revival.  There are medically confirmed healings.
Evidence then.  If this is true, it should be so fantastic and so special that there should be plenty.  If you were really intent showing us evidence you would have right here in this post, not trying to insult everyone.  But you didn't did you,  you made more baseless claims with no evidence at all. 

Pity that you think people are only worthwhile if they follow your religion.  I am happy I am not so ignorant and intolerant to feel that way. 
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Because if that is all we why are none believers worried about killing someone?
Because I care about other people. I don't need a magic carrot and stick to do that.  I'm sorry you do.
Why do you care if God can heal an Amputee?[/quote] Because I am empathic.  If it is possible and if your god exist and if it is truly benevolent to humans, I want to have this done.  Don't you? 
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Why do you argue with believers that feel bad for you and pray for you?
Darn, you feel bad for me.  You have no reason to.  I'm quite happy and contented with my life.  Do you disbelieve the religions of those who feel sorry for you for having the wrong one?  And oooh, you pray for me.  Funny how I've been prayed for by evidently hundreds of Christians if one can trust them, and nothing has changed in my life.  Your prayers fail, Nate.  Every single time.  We even have Christians who pray for those who dont agree with them to get breast cancer.  What good Christians!  I refute your nonsense because it is untrue.  You have nothing to show your religion any more valid than the next theist.   
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Why do judge us by the bible and to prove your intellect?
What? You dont’ belive in the bible?  Hooray, a theist who realizes it’s a primitive collection of stories that is filled with lies, baseless claims and failed prophecies!
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Why does is it that morality declines with intellect?
Wow, where’s the evidence for this?  Or is it just more false witnessesing? 

Many many theists claim that their god has “ingrained in us knowledge”.  Please do show it was your god that did *anything*, Nate.  And I love your little sadist fantasies.  Sign of a good Christian you know! 
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Offline Omen

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2012, 12:55:09 PM »
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Your omniscient/omnipotent god knew that they wouldn't meet his expectations and allowed it to happen anyway...

The Bible does show that he is omniscient in the sense that nothing can be hidden from him.

You don't get to pick and choose, either P=P or P doesn't equal P.

This is basic rudimentary logic, its so frustrating having to deal with believers who practically have no basic education.

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  However the Bible does sh..

The only answer available is either yes or no.

Either your god is omniscient and omnipotent, or it is not.  Either your god knew they would not meet its own expectations and created the situation knowing full well that would be the case or it didn't.  If you say it didn't, then your god is not omniscient/omnipotent and therefore not a god.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 12:56:40 PM by Omen »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2012, 01:03:23 PM »
There has been so much said that I don't even know where to begin.  I will attempt to answer the question of why God allows suffering.

Firstly you should note that the Bible does not say that God is the ruler of this world.  "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." -- 1 John 5:19. 

So why would God allow this?

How would a loving parent feel if he was publicly accused of lying to his children, abusing his authority over them, and withholding good things from them? Would he disprove those slanderous accusations by physically assaulting his accuser? No. In fact, by reacting in such a manner, he might give credibility to the accusations.  This is why God did not immediately destroy Satan.
Wow good to see that your god is as human as us.  It can be just as petty, just as whiny as a human being.  Makes sense since it was created by them.  Oh and I know why your god really didn’t destroy Satan; they’re co-workers.  We see your god allowing the murder of innocents by this “satan” in his bet about Job.  What’s a few mortals between friends?  Then, in Luke, God depends on Satan to have his plan come off, by satan making Judas betray JC.  That makes no sense if this was a beign that knows it would be defeated if this JC was made a blood sacrifice.  Then we have God needing to release Satan from the pit to have one more go at the humans who did indeed stay true to this god, per Revelation.  I do love how some  Christians run to the claim that the world is under the power of the “wicked one” but then we have some other Christians sure that this god does miracles whenever he wants, has control over ever single event in his “plan”.  Pity Christians can’t agree. 

Nice re-write of the eden story though.  Your god either intentionally allowed or was impotent in keeping the “snake” out (and in the context of the bible, it was really just a talking snake, not your evil one).  And hiliarous on how afraid your god was when humans became able to judge good and evil just like him, supposedly.  And from your casting your god as a vengeful father who would kill his children, golly, Satan was pretty right if he did indeed cast god as an unfit father.

I always enjoy when Chritians claim their god is just.  Nope, not even by the strict definition.  This god of yours condemns others for crimes that they did not commit.  Let me ask you, would you want to be put in prison for a crime I did?  Now how is that just?  Same with your primitive god.

Incidentally, all of your claims about your god and its actions, are moot until you can show evience that any of them happened.  There is no evidence for the bible creation, flood, tower of babel, exodus, any fantastic kingdoms of the Israelites,  miracles or the magical birth or death of your supposed savior.   

this next bit is pricesless:
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The Bible does show that he is omniscient in the sense that nothing can be hidden from him.  However the Bible does show that he is selective.
Damn then I hope your god is watching when you need him, jst.  Ooops God’s attention was on something else. So that busload of orphans goes over the cliff.  The depowering of their god, great to see this tactic being used.  Your god is “kinda omniscient” , rather like something being “kinda” sterile. 

Omnipotence is also a fail for your god.  Those iron chariots, bummer.  Being able to not kill someone who touches your magic box just to keep it upright, just can’t manage to do it.  Figuring out that the world isn’t flat, fail. Funny how your god doesn’t respect free will at all.  I’ve read the bible, jst.  I know you are simply wrong and I can quote chapter and verse.  Your god forced its will on the pharaoh to show off  (Exodus 4, 14, 17) and forced the Egyptians to give up their wealth to the Israelites (Exodus 12).  That’s mind control not free will.  This god acted against the enemies of the Israelites with miracles, if it were interested in free will, it would have done nothing.  In your New Testament, your supposed savior claims to have used parables to intentionally prevent people from accepting him; again not free will at all since on one had a choice against a magical and supposedly all-powerful being.  Same in Romans 9, where your god says that it makes some people to be damned, no choice of their own.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Why won't a loving god forgive without seeing a bloody sacrifice first?
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2012, 01:13:09 PM »
Either your god is omniscient and omnipotent, or it is not.

Well I would imagine that if he is all powerful then he can choose not to know certain things.  An all powerful being can use it selectively.

For example someone watching a prerecorded sports match has the option to watch the final minutes first in order to know the outcome. But he does not have to start that way. Who could criticize him if he chose to watch the entire match from the beginning?

Another example from the Bible is Abraham.  When Abraham went to the point of sacrificing his son, God said, "NOW I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me. -- Genesis 22:12

On the other hand, there were also occasions when the bad conduct of certain individuals caused God to "feel hurt." Would he have felt such pain if he had long known what they would do? — Psalm 78:40, 41; 1 Kings 11:9, 10

Thus it is logical to conclude that the all-wise God did not exercise his ability of foreknowledge to know in advance that our first parents would sin. He was not so foolish as to embark on a bizarre venture, using his ability to know the outcome in advance and then staging a mere rerun of what he already knew.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 01:18:01 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10