Author Topic: IGI + WWGHA  (Read 1645 times)

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Offline EV

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IGI + WWGHA
« on: April 16, 2012, 07:04:46 AM »
Hey all,

I just wanted to clear something up. I always see IGI referenced on here, some people mention 'IGI plants'. I figured it's relating to the 'God is Imaginary' forum.

I gathered there was some sort of 'feud' between the two places, can somebody enlighten me as to what actually happened? It was before my time.
-EV
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2012, 08:23:57 AM »
There really isn't much of a story. A while back there were some IGI folks that visited the WWGHA forum. They viewed this forum as being too cruel towards theists and thought moderation wasn't strict enough in regards to insults and swearing. Now once in a blue moon their butthurt will flame up and they'll make a boohoo post about how mean WWGHA is.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Traveler

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2012, 09:07:12 AM »
The ancient history is that way back in the distant past some folks were banned from wwgha and created IGI as an alternative. So there's a bit of bad blood still floating around.
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Offline Nick

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2012, 11:44:19 AM »
If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen...or religion...or whatever it is we are doing here.

I guess atheists have schisms also.  When do we get to torture those who see things differently from us?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 11:46:16 AM by Nick »
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Offline Pounamu

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 01:54:53 AM »
There really isn't much of a story. A while back there were some IGI folks that visited the WWGHA forum. They viewed this forum as being too cruel towards theists and thought moderation wasn't strict enough in regards to insults and swearing. Now once in a blue moon their butthurt will flame up and they'll make a boohoo post about how mean WWGHA is.

So for those for whom WWGHA is the bad uncle, IGI is the mommy they run to? :)
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Offline Pounamu

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 10:43:12 AM »
I guess atheists have schisms also.  When do we get to torture those who see things differently from us?

I don't think a schism is possible in atheism. IMO, what happens with WWGHA and IGI, right now, is just a temporary division - sooner or later one of the two forums will be proved better than the other (something whic is impossible when the division is between two religious groups).

Ask me which of the two forums will be proved to be better and I reply immediately - WWGHA! Why? Because we have much better chances to find out the most aerodynamic shape when we try the construction at maximum speed. WWGHA will win, because of its maximal adherence to the truth, even when this is at the expense of somebody's feelings.
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Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 02:32:24 PM »
Hi there all, I am an IGI member, recently joined WWGHA.

I think that IGI is merely a different focus than WWGHA.
WWGHA seems to be focused on proving the atheist position sound, and sort of "fighting it out in a debate" if you will.
IGI is far different in flavor. The concentration is more on bringing the different views to the table and fomenting discussion, it is more a marketplace of ideas about god(s) than it is a debate forum (though we certainly have our fair share of those).

I don't see why either should be eliminated in the long run, as neither is in competition with the other's niche.
They will likely survive a long time, like coke and pepsi, or McDonalds and Taco Bell. It's all a matter of taste  :)
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Online One Above All

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 02:34:09 PM »
Argyle, what is the difference between a discussion and a debate? From what I've seen, IGI is a place where people open threads and just say "I think X about Y" and nobody can ever challenge that PoV.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 02:42:16 PM »
Hey, Argyle, nice to see you here!  ;D  I perceive you as one of the good guys.  8)

One difference that drives me crazy, although I enjoy both boards, is that some people get away with murder over there, because they know how to work around the system of rules to be rude and obnoxious in (sometimes not so) subtle ways. On those occasions I run screaming back here where at least we KNOW how and when we can be rude and obnoxious, and its obvious to everyone when we are. Perhaps I've said too much.  :laugh:
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Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 09:16:17 PM »
Argyle, what is the difference between a discussion and a debate? From what I've seen, IGI is a place where people open threads and just say "I think X about Y" and nobody can ever challenge that PoV.

I think that the difference between discussion and debate is the goal. A discussion is just a hashing out of ideas with neither side attempting necessarily to convince. There have been threads on IGI that are sort of an "ask me anything" from a modern/liberal Muslim for example. A debate is the posing of two alternative views in shall we say "Mortal Kombat" :]. I enjoy both, and I am certain that both happen on both forums, but I think IGI caters to discussion to a greater degree while WWGHA caters to debate to a greater degree.

The title of this forum is the title of a specific argument against particular god concepts. "Is god imaginary?" on the other hand is the core philosophical question and assumes no particular angle on the subject as much as possible. I quite often engage with others who have different world views as in my honest opinion the insularity of a religion is directly proportional to the level of danger it poses to outsiders. I want both to have the believers I interact with understand my position, and to understand theirs, and I subtly perhaps actually consider this the more important aspect of the conversation, but that is my own philosophy on discussion.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2012, 09:29:02 PM »
Hey, Argyle, nice to see you here!  ;D  I perceive you as one of the good guys.  8)

Greetings Traveler! :] great to see you as well. I have a feeling I will be meeting a fair few others whom I already know.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline jetson

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2012, 09:43:36 PM »
Welcome Argyle!

Folks, I have to say I truly enjoy Argyle's style over at IGI.  There are a few members over there that really have a bad taste for anyone from WWGHA, especially if they are atheists.  But there are some interesting discussions, and a nice handful of dual members.  I like the style of a handful of the atheists, and there are some agnostics that I'm growing to like as well.

I guess I've become so accustomed to the WWGHA style, that I have a tougher time with the IGI style.  I've seen some nasty stuff go down on both forums over the years, so no one is innocent in the forum wars (hee hee).  There are no wars, that was a joke!

I've managed to get myself into trouble with the rules at IGI, so if you decide to go over there, don't forget to read the rules, and remember that the style is different.

Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2012, 09:48:50 PM »
Agreed, it's good to familiarize yourself with the system.
To be fair though, in order to actually warrant any punishment on IGI you have to basically willfully defy the moderators on three occasions within three months, and that only puts you in "the corner" for three days. It's actually really difficult to get yourself kicked off the forum.. I think it has only happened once or twice that I have ever heard of :]
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline jetson

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2012, 09:52:09 PM »
Agreed, it's good to familiarize yourself with the system.
To be fair though, in order to actually warrant any punishment on IGI you have to basically willfully defy the moderators on three occasions within three months, and that only puts you in "the corner" for three days. It's actually really difficult to get yourself kicked off the forum.. I think it has only happened once or twice that I have ever heard of :]

Ah, there's the difference!  Over here, you're out on your ass if you step out of line!   ;D


Offline EV

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2012, 05:24:05 AM »
This cleared up a lot of my confusion! Thanks for your responses guys by the way :) Hey Argyle, nice to see you over here.
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Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 07:30:23 PM »
Thank you Elliot.
I once played the Viola, and then the Violin, and then the Cello.
I fear I failed at all three. My brain was built for philosophy and engineering, not for music it would seem.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline EV

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2012, 02:32:38 AM »
Thank you Elliot.
I once played the Viola, and then the Violin, and then the Cello.
I fear I failed at all three. My brain was built for philosophy and engineering, not for music it would seem.

Ahh, a fellow Violist! We are a rare breed. Even if you failed, you can still claim that highest of accolades... Being a Violist.

*insert relevant Viola joke here*.......

But Philosophy and Music are often intertwined. Even Plato was a musician of sorts: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/7863036/Plato-ancient-Greek-philosophers-secret-music-code-cracked-by-British-scientists.html

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Plato: ancient Greek philosopher's 'secret music code' cracked by British scientists -The Times Online
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline Pounamu

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2012, 04:42:56 AM »
Hey Argyle! Glad to see you posting in this forum :)

I don't see why either should be eliminated in the long run, as neither is in competition with the other's niche.
They will likely survive a long time, like coke and pepsi, or McDonalds and Taco Bell. It's all a matter of taste  :)
It's also very likely that in the long run none of the two forums will survive. One of the few things that I learned in my entrepreneurship classes is that pioneers usually get shot. And the more the product is a complex one, the more the above is true. Yes, Coke, Pepsi, McDonalds and Taco seem to be an exception to this rule, but that's because their core products are very simple. When the core product is simple, then it's all about marketing, catering, operations management, etc.

But when the core product is a complex one (such as the product of an internet forum) and it is a brand new product (such as the product of WWGHA or IGI), it evolves so quickly, that very often even the organization that invented it can't keep up to the standards set by the development of this product. And very often an emerging organization turns out to be more prepared for the new requirements.

Let me give you an example: The first graphical computer operating system was developed by Xerox, then it was bought and developed further by Apple, then it was stolen and developed further by Microsoft. That's how we have Windows now. Currently, all the three companies exist and are successful companies, but only one of them dominates the market of desktop and laptop computer operating systems, and that's the last-in company – Microsoft.

For a moment I imagine that I am a pirate like Bill Gates and I see a lot that could be stolen from WWGHA and very little to steal from IGI.

I hope it doesn't sound too cocky to you, but the only reason why IGI still has a niche, is because WWGHA leaves a niche. Now it's easy – WWGHA are the bad guys and IGI are the good guys – plain and simple. But that's because WWGHA is not bad enough yet. When it (or another forum of this kind) becomes really bad – I mean overwhelmingly bad, so bad that there is no proportional level of good to counter with, then  IGI will simply become redundant.       

You probably wonder what I mean with “overwhelmingly bad”. I guess you've heard Gloria Steinem's thought: “The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.” Well, my impression is that IGI is full of theists who simply can't or don't want to overcome the piss-off stage, so their choice is the IGI light motive – to goof around and try to affirm their religious positions. When WWGHA becomes “overwhelmingly bad” theists will have no other choice but try to overcome the piss-off stage.   
« Last Edit: April 27, 2012, 06:04:02 AM by Cadillac »
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Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2012, 09:54:16 AM »
Ahh, a fellow Violist! We are a rare breed. Even if you failed, you can still claim that highest of accolades... Being a Violist.

"How do you keep your violin from getting stolen?
Put it in a viola case."
.......

But Philosophy and Music are often intertwined...

I prefer to compare myself to Sherlock Holmes, If I still had a Viola or Violin I would play it while solving incredibly complex puzzles, and in the process irritate those around me until they were quite prepared to begin hurling uncomfortably large and potentially lethal objects in my direction.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline Argyle

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2012, 09:57:32 AM »
Hey Argyle! Glad to see you posting in this forum :)
... When WWGHA becomes “overwhelmingly bad” theists will have no other choice but try to overcome the piss-off stage.

I suppose all we can do at this point is conjecture.
I do wonder though, with atheism on the rise by all accounts, whether the future holds the extinction of both of our little forums.
Mayhap in the future the forum of choice would be "www.couldgodspossiblyexist.com" or some such.
Cheers!
-Argyle

Never let yourself be diverted by what you wish to believe, but look only and surely at what are the facts

Offline MadBunny

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2012, 12:10:27 AM »

<stuff>


You're really over thinking this by a large margin.

Basically it's like comparing NY pizza with Chicago pizza.  Some people like one style, some the other. 
*Most* people can probably take either, just not at the same time.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline EV

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2012, 05:31:23 AM »
"How do you keep your violin from getting stolen?
Put it in a viola case."
.......

I prefer to compare myself to Sherlock Holmes, If I still had a Viola or Violin I would play it while solving incredibly complex puzzles, and in the process irritate those around me until they were quite prepared to begin hurling uncomfortably large and potentially lethal objects in my direction.

Okay, this is brilliant... Throwing lethal objects eh...? Bad Violists? It'd be a fairly large mass of them ;)

It's also very likely that in the long run none of the two forums will survive. One of the few things that I learned in my entrepreneurship classes is that pioneers usually get shot.

I don't have experience of IGI, but I reckon members loyalties will be the deciding factors and people will continue them into perpetuity until the scenario where there is no more religion to bitch about... :P I certainly can't see myself participating in another forum on the same scale of engagement and fondness I have for reading this one. I may not post an awful lot, but reading the various threads is certainly very fun, and I don't know if this applies to others.

But anyway, Cadillac, as MadBunny said, perhaps a little overthought? It is all a matter of taste. And I think that all we need at the moment is an influx of theists...

Maybe we should offer a Theist Exchange program between IGI and WWGHA. We can whip their theists into shape (or Omen will just destroy them) and then they can put up with demon-possessed NATHAN...?
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"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline Pounamu

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Re: IGI + WWGHA
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2012, 01:24:11 AM »
You're really over thinking this by a large margin.
MB, I have to admit I had to look up "to over-think" in the dictionary. :)  I'm still not 100% sure what it means, because such a word/expression doesn't exist in my native language.  But, I guess, if two native English speakers agree that I over-think, then I really over-think, whatever this word means.

Basically it's like comparing NY pizza with Chicago pizza.  Some people like one style, some the other. 
*Most* people can probably take either, just not at the same time.
Yes, at this point it is really a matter of preference.
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