Author Topic: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!  (Read 2211 times)

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Offline orpat

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A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« on: April 11, 2012, 06:05:10 AM »
At least among our ancestors, the primates.

And quite an ideal society it is, really.

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Bonobos, to the exact opposite, live in female managed societies where violence is not tolerated, where rape and infanticide do not exist, where other species are not killed, and where a wide variety of enjoyable sexual activities are used to enhance friendships and to resolve conflicts.


We share 99 per cent of our DNA with bonobos yet we deal with conflict so differently. Is the reason for that difference in nature or nurture. Is it in our genes, or is it because females manage bonobo society, while males run all other primate societies.
http://www.dlwaldron.com/bonobos.html

Think we humans could learn a lot from them. Also goes to explain, how a bit of female dominance could lead human society towards the better.
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Offline orpat

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2012, 06:13:12 AM »
Also goes to explain how male dominated chimps and humans are often violent and more aggressive than female dominated bonobos.


Also how I was not entirely ignorant/wrong/lying in this earlier comment of mine in this topic

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A female dominated world should be good.

Women are naturally more mature, less violent, more civilized, more friendly, less racist, less religious, more family oriented, more peaceful, more careful, less risk taking, more caring, more responsible.

So i suppose the world would reflect their character.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22015.58.html
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 06:16:09 AM by orpat »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2012, 06:16:22 AM »
Maybe you are right, but there would stll be quite a few problems with them ruling society. The future of society is made better with purely good people. Not all females are good for it. As long as we are not made slaves it may be fine. However, if religion was not in the way, plus corrupt people, society would clearly be saved. Men and women are not much different.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2012, 06:23:41 AM »
Our knowledge of the nature of things is much greater than that of other great apes. We understand cause and effect on a level that would baffle them. Our society is also much more complex than theirs. This example is meaningless.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2012, 06:39:40 AM »
Our knowledge of the nature of things is much greater than that of other great apes. We understand cause and effect on a level that would baffle them. Our society is also much more complex than theirs. This example is meaningless.

Yet with all our knowledge and understanding of things, we still do not understand basic things like wars, female oppression, violence are not going to solve things.

This example is quite meaningful.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2012, 06:44:59 AM »
Yet with all our knowledge and understanding of things, we still do not understand basic things like wars, female oppression, violence are not going to solve things.

I didn't say everyone understood everything. The collective knowledge of our species is far greater than any individual could know, but most people seem to be missing the basics.

This example is quite meaningful.

It's really not. We're a different species. A different culture. We have recorded history, economics, resources and other things that they don't even understand.
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Offline orpat

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2012, 07:37:26 AM »
I didn't say everyone understood everything. The collective knowledge of our species is far greater than any individual could know, but most people seem to be missing the basics.

And getting the basics right is what the primates did.




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It's really not. We're a different species.

Not exactly.

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A different culture.

Culture varies between humans.

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We have recorded history, economics, resources and other things that they don't even understand.

Not needed.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2012, 07:39:18 AM »
When was it ever anything but a female dominated society?

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2012, 07:45:41 AM »
When was it ever anything but a female dominated society?


Lol ;D
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2012, 07:54:00 AM »
Not exactly.

Homo sapiens sapiens versus Pan paniscus. Different species. 1% can make a difference.

Culture varies between humans.

True, but there are always similarities between them which aren't found amongst the other great apes.

Not needed.

Yes needed. Money limits what's possible for a country. You are not taking this into consideration, and that's just one of the many differences that make your OP irrelevant.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2012, 08:06:29 AM »
Homo sapiens sapiens versus Pan paniscus. Different species. 1% can make a difference.

Very less of a difference. Besides in the early ages and even now, many whites associate blacks with apes http://scienceblog.com/15428/americans-still-linking-blacks-to-apes/.

Quote

True, but there are always similarities between them which aren't found amongst the other great apes.

There are also many similarities between apes and us humans.

Quote

Yes needed. Money limits what's possible for a country. You are not taking this into consideration, and that's just one of the many differences that make your OP irrelevant.

And what's possible for that country?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:10:04 AM by orpat »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2012, 08:10:49 AM »
Very less of a difference.

Enough to change our behaviour in such a crucial manner.

There are also many similarities between apes and us humans.

Those similarities are irrelevant.

And what's possible for that country?

...Which country? I was speaking for a non-specific, general country.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2012, 08:16:06 AM »
Those similarities are irrelevant.

Irrelevant, how?

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...Which country? I was speaking for a non-specific, general country.

Any country which has enough money.

P.s. I have modified my earlier reply, you might want to go through it again.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2012, 08:21:14 AM »
Irrelevant, how?

>_> Seriously?
Irrelevant because they do not affect the false belief that men and women think differently.

Any country which has enough money.

With enough money, you could do anything and nobody would give a crap. It's sad, but it's the truth. Wealth and short-term benefits have always been more valued than life.

P.s. I have modified my earlier reply, you might want to go through it again.

I did. I saw nothing worth replying to.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 08:29:19 AM »
>_> Seriously?
Irrelevant because they do not affect the false belief that men and women think differently.

Umm..i didn't get you.

Quote
With enough money, you could do anything and nobody would give a crap. It's sad, but it's the truth. Wealth and short-term benefits have always been more valued than life.

With enough money, you could do anything. Then why we don't get the basic right?

« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 08:40:12 AM by orpat »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2012, 08:39:32 AM »
With enough money, you could do anything. Then why we don't get the basic right?

Wealth and short-term benefits have always been more valued than life.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2012, 02:34:43 PM »
Ok, so after wasting a about twenty minutes of my life that I won't get back thanks to Orpat, here's what I can see.

D'Lynn Waldron, the woman who's site he links to, certainly seems to be a very brilliant and respectable source. However, she also has no qualifications in anyway to be making claims like these about animal behaviour. However that's neither here nor there since she doesn't actually make those claims. What Orpat is talking about is from a book of hers. The first book of the Ariane Trilogy, a set of romantic novels about "A mischievous academic who researches sex in evolution". As it says on the site itself:

"This is part of a chapter from Book I of the Ariane Trilogy of witty romantic novels by Dr. D’Lynn Waldron.
Dr. Ariane Lawrence an irrepressibly mischievous primatologist / evolutionary psychologist who researches how women's choices in men have shaped the evolution of human intelligence and creativity, and also how the peaceable, sex-filled lives of the bonobos, our nearest primate relative, may give us a clue to the genetics of violence. Ariane's television special about how bonobos make love not war proves to be a great embarrassment to her fiancee Sir Marshall Chalfont, a symphony conductor who writes music for the movies and is very concerned to maintain his dignity."


Then it goes on to list all of the "information" about bonobos. It then goes on to print a letter from a scientist at the Museum in Buffalo who makes some corrections to the information from the book. And there are several links to other sites and some lists of books as reading materials which is probably where she got the information from. However I'm not going to bother looking into those due to lack of caring. I'll just bottomline it.

While Dr.Waldron is certainly a legitimate scientist, and as far as I can see a rather impressive one, she has no field of study that relates to this. She is an athropologist who is skilled at studying human cultures. Furthermore, the information he quoted was taken directly not from an actual paper or legitimate scientific work that she did. It was taken from a romance novel she wrote about a scientist who studies those things. The level of absolute irrelevance and pointlessness of this is positively stunning.

PS. As a sidenote, since Orpat apparently neglected to pay attention to what he was using as information when it didn't help his case. Female bonobos maintain the peace in their society largely by using sex as a form of exchange and as a way to settle disagreements between the males. In fact there's quite a bit else in there on the promiscuity of bonobo females.

So, in effect, Orpats "ideal society" is one where all of the women are sluts and whores who spread their legs for every male who asks.

There's feminism at work for you people.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 02:36:41 PM by Alzael »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2012, 02:43:04 PM »
So, in effect, Orpats "ideal society" is one where all of the women are sluts and whores who spread their legs for every male who asks.

There's feminism at work for you people.

Hey, works for me and every homosexual and bisexual male out there.[1] Also works for those who fit the stereotypical heterosexual guy who only wants sex 24/7. Guess which group orpat belongs to.
 1. This is just to make a point. It doesn't actually work for myself, nor does it work for most homosexual and bisexual males out there.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2012, 02:56:14 PM »
I'm disappointed. I thought this thread was going to be about BEES! >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2012, 11:52:46 PM »
Ok, so after wasting a about twenty minutes of my life that I won't get back thanks to Orpat, here's what I can see.


Poor little Alzael,
You wasted 20 minutes  of your fucking life just to prove me wrong. How sad! I feel for you. Just goes to prove how frustration has gotten the better of you. Sadder still is the fact that I don't give a shit to whatever you wrote.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:13:15 AM by orpat »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2012, 12:03:00 AM »
Instead of just wasting your time trying to prove a certain anthropologist or primatologist wrong, would it have killed someone to just type the name Bonobo over the net? Or at the least ask me for some other links? I guess it would have killed you for, whoa, wait a theist is creating this post, lets just prove him wrong by whatever means!

Anyways, here are some other links saying almost same things what Dr. Waldron said

http://www.livescience.com/9882-humans-lot-learn-bonobos-scientist.html

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/weird-wide-web/study-female-bonobos-homosexual-relations

http://brembs.net/bonobos.html
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:14:05 AM by orpat »
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2012, 12:07:30 AM »
I am off from this discussion. I guess there's no further point in staying here in this forum.
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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2012, 01:59:38 AM »
You get out of it what you put into it.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2012, 04:24:54 AM »
Bonobos have sex with their children -- a lot.

When a bonobo male returns with fruit he parades about with an erection thus showing what you have to do for him to get the food.

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Re: A Female Dominated Society-Yes it Exists!!
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2012, 10:28:39 AM »

Poor little Alzael,
You wasted 20 minutes  of your fucking life just to prove me wrong. How sad! I feel for you. Just goes to prove how frustration has gotten the better of you. Sadder still is the fact that I don't give a shit to whatever you wrote.

No, I spent 20 minutes evaluating the data that you put out to be examined as proof of your claim to see if what you were proposing had any merit that was worthy of consideration. That's what a rational person does. That's what I always do, in case you hadn't noticed. When qwan lee (or whatever his name is) posted that BS story about a mans near death experience, even though it was pretty obviously going to be tripe, I still read it and examined it. This allowed me to make an informed decision about it's worth as an argument for qwan's point.

I'm curious as to what you expected I would do? Did you think I would just take your word for it and accept that your information was good just because you put out a link?

As for it being sad that you don't care what I wrote, I assume you mean sad for me, but I don't see how. How is it sad for me that you don't care that someone has shown your source of information to be faulty?

Instead of just wasting your time trying to prove a certain anthropologist or primatologist wrong, would it have killed someone to just type the name Bonobo over the net?

No, it wouldn't have killed me. But would it have killed you to provide a credible source of information the first time around. Instead of providing information written in a romance novel? Note that I never claimed your information was wrong. I said that your source was worthless. As I said, the Dr. is as far as I can see a legitimate scientist, and a very well accomplished one in her field. I've had a chance since to look at some of her work and I personally find it impressive. I've always enjoyed sociology and other anthropological sciences so I can appreciate what she's done.

However she has no experience in this particular field, and as pointed out, has made no claims that any of those things on that site are true which you were using as proof. Those statements about bonobos are all excerpts from a fictional novel that she has written about a woman who studies/has studied bonobos. It is not a credible source of information about them, nor does she at any point claim it to be. In fact, as I pointed out, there is a section at the bottom of that page where another scientist has sent a letter to her correcting her information. Dr. Waldon, being a respectable scientist, reproduced the letter at the bottom in full with the mans name so that the correction was clear and was accredited to the scientist that had provided the information.

But my sidetracking aside, if you had other sources to offer, why provide one that is from a fictional work? Did you not read what you were using as evidence, because it's spelled out quite clearly what that information is?

Or at the least ask me for some other links?

Again, why should I have to? Why didn't you just post a good link in the first place?

I guess it would have killed you for, whoa, wait a theist is creating this post, lets just prove him wrong by whatever means!

I didn't prove you wrong. I proved that your source of information was faulty, there's a difference. As for the second part, please grow up and don't try to play the persecution card. You put out a claim and evidence of that claim, and I evaluated it fairly. That's it. I've barely interacted with you throughout your entire stay on this forum. This is only the second thread that I can recall in which I've ever spoken to you, so the fact that I'm pouncing on you just because you're a theist as opposed to someone who was making bad claims is ridiculous.

Anyways, here are some other links saying almost same things what Dr. Waldron said

http://www.livescience.com/9882-humans-lot-learn-bonobos-scientist.html

Firstly I'll reiterate that I never stated disagreement with much of the information presented. Merely it's use as a source.

That being said, this link does not say almost the same things that were on Dr.Waldrons website. It makes the same general conclusion about  bonobos being exceptionally geared towards being peaceable and cooperative but does not say most of the same things that the Dr.'s did. Doctor Waldron's was mostly just various examples and statements about their sexual behaviour (the woman in her novel is apparently studying sexual evolution) this is mostly a essay on bonobo research in general. As far as it goes it  does somewhat help your claim. However it only spends a single short paragraph on the topic and the rest is unrelated to what you are trying to claim. So it provides some validation, but no hard evidence. However it wasn't trying to in the first place.

Interestingly, one thing that the researcher in that article theorizes is that the reason that bonobo society is so peaceful is because in the areas where bonobos live there is an overabundance of food. Meaning that bonobo tribes never have to compete for resources.

From this article I would seem to conclude more that bonobos are not as "ideal" as they are because they are governed by females, but because there is simply no need for violence. The females will have sex anywhere, anytime, in any sexual configuration the males want. As well as every member of their society has as overabundance of "weath". Since they have no gods either, what is there to fight about?

As an aside, I noticed another article on bonobos while I was reading this one.

http://www.livescience.com/9601-bonobos-hunt-primates.html

The upshot of the whole thing is that bonobos have been observered hunting down, killing, and eating  the young of other species of primates. For those who don't want to read it I'll provide the most relevant quote:

""These findings are particularly relevant for the discussion about male dominance and bonding, aggression and hunting — a domain that was thought to separate chimpanzees and bonobos," said Gottfried Hohmann of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. "In chimpanzees, male-dominance is associated with physical violence, hunting and meat consumption. By inference, the lack of male dominance and physical violence is often used to explain the relative absence of hunting and meat-eating in bonobos. Our observations suggest that, in contrast to previous assumptions, these behaviors may persist in societies with different social relations." "

So we have further evidence here of my theory that female dominance has little, or possibly no, correlation to the lack of violence in bonobos as this hunting and killing behavior is demonstrated in the females as well.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/weird-wide-web/study-female-bonobos-homosexual-relations

Ummmmm........did you actually read this? Because I really don't think you did. Not only does this in no way provide any support for your position. It actually outright confirms what I stated earlier about your "ideal society" being one where all the women are sluts and whores.

For those members who aren't going to read this (and I wouldn't blame any of you for not wanting to read about bonobo lesbianism). The article is about how bonobo females use sex (specifically homosexual sex) to advance their position in bonobo society. During sex bonobo females make certain noises to entice the higher-ranking females to want to have sex with them as an invitation. Thus strengthening their own position in the tribe. I'm curious, Orpat did claim to be a feminist, didn't he?

I will now take a moment and allow the image of lesbian ape orgies to seep into your brains. Because if I have to suffer this, I'm taking all of you bastards with me.

http://brembs.net/bonobos.html


Ok, seriously dude. What is it with you and the monkey-sex? I mean really. It was bad enough that you linked a site that talked solely about lesbian monkey sex. Now you had to link me to a site that actually explained the process to me? Do I really strike you as someone that was sitting around wondering about how gay and lesbian monkeys got their rocks off together (yeah male bonobos are in there too).

The joking and disturbing imagery aside however, let me just say this. The article is very good and well-written with a great deal of information about bonobos and their society. For those interested I recommend reading it (just trust me, skip paragraphs 22-26).

However like the first one it doesn't really help Orpats case. Most of what is said in this article  does not match up with what was said in his initial link, except in the most general way (bonobos are peaceful and they fuck a lot). Almost none of the specific claims made in that first post are mentioned anywhere.

What I do get from this is more along the lines of my earlier statements about the way the females control the males. Yes, the society is female-dominated, however the society is dominated by the females because the females essentially work together to literaly dominate the men. The females work as a group and intimidate any male that gets uppity into submission, just as a group of males would do with a female in any other society. Aside from intimidation the females control the society using sex as a tool to make the men do things, give them food and other gifts, advance their position, and generally give in to their wishes. Again, just like in any other society.

While reading the articles was very interesting and informative (as well as mentally scarring) nothing in them supports Orpats case that bonobo society is so peaceful and idyllic (as he describes it) because it is female dominated. The evidence that I can see points to the reason being that bonobo society simply has nothing to really fight for. It does certainly sound very wonderful (all of your basic needs easily met and sex whenever you want) but I can't see where the females really have anything to do with it (except maybe the sex part).

Now, if you'll all excuse me for a bit. I've just spent far too much with images of multi-partnered ape sex invading my brain.

I need to go plunge my skull into anti-matter.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.