Author Topic: My Opinion on WWGHA?  (Read 12070 times)

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Offline Co.Inkadink

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My Opinion on WWGHA?
« on: April 10, 2012, 05:14:57 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.

Why should God heal amputees anyway? Is there some reason he should? Jesus never did, he healed a man with a withered hand but he didn't produce a full new hand just restored the old one. He healed leprosy and blindness and deafness so I suppose he produced working parts where none were. With the deaf man he even allowed him to understand language and words that he had never heard before. Even if God did this it wouldn't make people give their lives to Him. The 9 Lepers didn't even thank him, the children of Israel complained about the food that fell out of the sky every day, the 5000 that were fed didn't stand by Jesus and all follow him they just wanted him to keep providing food.
He didn't heal Mephibosheth who was Jonathan's son in the old testament from being lame, he didn't heal Paul's thorn in the flesh and Paul had great faith.
BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline and not about prayer, you really should read the verses before it and after. I know it's cliche but it's true you really shouldn't take things out of context. There are several verses out of context there and all over this site. I'm assuming you really don't know this. I'm assuming none of you know Greek or Hebrew or have access to it. Here's help http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible. I read Atheist authors regularly.
One more thing. from your front page.
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Key Point
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

I'm not trying to start trouble here. I would just like to have a discussion based on Logic Reason and scientific facts about your conclusions. That is what Atheists are all about right?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2012, 06:26:10 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.
Yet you are going to say that God/Jesus has healed other things, even though in those situations, it is also obvious that God wanted them to be in such a state. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb be blind in the first place.

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Why should God heal amputees anyway? Is there some reason he should? Jesus never did, he healed a man with a withered hand but he didn't produce a full new hand just restored the old one.
But why even do that, if God had wanted it to be withered in the first place? The "logic" that you claim as if it were self evident regarding amputees should be equally applicable to any illness, injury, or birth defect. If it is such an obvious explanation for amputees, then it is for all other conditions as well. Why would God intervene in any of them?
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He healed leprosy and blindness and deafness so I suppose he produced working parts where none were. With the deaf man he even allowed him to understand language and words that he had never heard before.
Well if God can ignore your principle in all of these situations, he can be gracious enough to do it for amputees too.
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Even if God did this it wouldn't make people give their lives to Him. The 9 Lepers didn't even thank him, the children of Israel complained about the food that fell out of the sky every day, the 5000 that were fed didn't stand by Jesus and all follow him they just wanted him to keep providing food.
This is only making your case weaker, you realize. Then why not heal an amputee?
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He didn't heal Mephibosheth who was Jonathan's son in the old testament from being lame, he didn't heal Paul's thorn in the flesh and Paul had great faith.
Then why not, when he allegedly does so much healing?
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BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline
Actually it's about how to handle a brother who has sinned against you.
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and not about prayer, you really should read the verses before it and after.
I have done so just now, and find that the idea of the "two brothers" asking for the same thing and receiving it by God's grace to be consistent with the notion of answered prayer.
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I know it's cliche but it's true you really shouldn't take things out of context. There are several verses out of context there and all over this site.
Please explain to us what the proper context is for ripping children from their mother's uterus, smashing babies' head on rocks, raping adolescent girls, and massacring entire tribes.
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I'm assuming you really don't know this. I'm assuming none of you know Greek or Hebrew or have access to it. Here's help http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm
Myself? No, but there are those on this site that are, in fact familiar with such things. One has to question the value of a translated book, when the individual reader cannot be certain of the meaning of anything without knowing several other languages and having access to the Biblical texts within those languages, and being skilled enough to accurately interpret them. You might say that is what the Biblical scholars are for, but WHO TRANSLATED THE BIBLE? Biblical scholars. We are relying on their translation. Which version of the Bible is the right one? There are hundreds to choose from.
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Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism
We apply the same textual criticisms to the Bible as we would any other work of fiction, thats why we are atheists
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and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible.
God shouldn't need apologetics to explain away all of the problems with the Bible. It should be perfect. Christians think that it IS perfect. If so, why the need for apologetics at all??
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I read Atheist authors regularly.
Well at least you read something of value.
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One more thing. from your front page.
Key Point
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?
I don't see why you are protesting this, since you yourself said that God will not heal amputees. YOU would anticipate that no amputees would be healed just as much as we would. Additionally, considering all of the (bogus) stories of faith healing in other medical cases, you would think there would be at least one (even if it was bogus) case of a restored, previously missing limb. If such a thing were to happen it would NOT be overlooked, ESPECIALLY by believers such as yourself.

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I'm not trying to start trouble here. I would just like to have a discussion based on Logic Reason and scientific facts about your conclusions. That is what Atheists are all about right?
Then how about providing us some scientific facts that support the conclusion "The Bible is true and God is real". We've asked the same of every believer who comes here. We have yet to be presented with a single piece of actual evidence to support such a claim.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Historicity

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2012, 06:32:08 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.
Which means that prayer doesn't do anything because it would require a perfect God to change a perfect decision He has already made.

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Why should God heal amputees anyway? Is there some reason he should?
To perform a miracle that is clearly not spontaneous remission or hysterical blindness or deafness.

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Jesus never did
Nor did he move a mountain.  Nor has any Christian had enough faith to have the telekinetic powers to move a mountain in 2000 years of Christanity.

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BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline and not about prayer, you really should read the verses before it and after. I know it's cliche but it's true you really shouldn't take things out of context.

Here they are:
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18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That doesn't change anything.

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Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible.

Most everyone here has.  You are at least disingenuous.

Offline velkyn

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2012, 09:04:49 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.
  Cool!  So your god wants people to be in pain, lose their jobs, etc.  Now please explain why.
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Why should God heal amputees anyway? Is there some reason he should? Jesus never did, he healed a man with a withered hand but he didn't produce a full new hand just restored the old one. He healed leprosy and blindness and deafness so I suppose he produced working parts where none were. With the deaf man he even allowed him to understand language and words that he had never heard before. Even if God did this it wouldn't make people give their lives to Him. The 9 Lepers didn't even thank him, the children of Israel complained about the food that fell out of the sky every day, the 5000 that were fed didn't stand by Jesus and all follow him they just wanted him to keep providing food.
Wow, nice excuses there, and reviling what your fellow Christians have claimed.  They claim that this god heals all sorts of things. But it’s pretty convenient that this god heals nothing obvious.  And no your Jesus healed nothing.  There are stories of this but no evidence whatsoever.  One may as well believe that the Hindu gods have healed people or that Allah has.  Same myths, different gods and the same lack of evidence.  I do agree, it’s funny that the Israelites bitched and whined so much but it isn’t so myseriosu when one considered is just a “just-so” story to explain why bad things happen to people.
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He didn't heal Mephibosheth who was Jonathan's son in the old testament from being lame, he didn't heal Paul's thorn in the flesh and Paul had great faith.
Yep, he fails at healing.  He even kills David’s son for David’s sin.  What a good and fair god! &)  Yep, this god fails in healing the farther the stories get from the myths of the old testament.  Isn’t that convenient too!  Since people were questioning more and more, this poor god has to retreat into the gaps and has kept on doing so ever since.
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BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline and not about prayer, you really should read the verses before it and after. I know it's cliche but it's true you really shouldn't take things out of context. There are several verses out of context there and all over this site. I'm assuming you really don't know this. I'm assuming none of you know Greek or Hebrew or have access to it. Here's help http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm
ah yes, the common claims that the Christian knows what this god “really” meant and how their interpretation is the only “right” one, aka the magic decoder ring.  Yep, every single theist claims the same thing and has no more evidence than the next that his claims are the only “real” ones.  It’s great fun to watch how this happens and to already be familiar with the bible so I know that the Christian is simply lying in an attempt to excuse his primitive and ignorant god and book.
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Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible. I read Atheist authors regularly.
oh, that magic decoder ring again.  So is the resurrection a metaphor or not? How do you know?
 
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How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
How can I believe it (btw, I’m not the author of the site)?  I know that no miracle claimed by a theist of any kind has ever been supported by evidence. Ever.  We have claims of miracles happening but never any actual evidence, no objective observers, no medical records, nothing.  Now if this actually did happen, that the believers in JC did have the magical powers that he promised them, why does no one talk about it?  It’d be a great recruitment tool for new believers.  Now, here’s where many Christians try to excuse the lack of actual miracles done by them by saying that this god only wants faith and if it gave undeniable miracles this would abrogate free will.  However, I’ve read the bible, as a believer and as not, and I know this god had no problem with using miracles for the express purpose to get people to worship it.
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There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?
What “scientific studies” that have supported that prayer will heal amputees?  If you know of any, please give me a link to them or cite the journal they were published in and the authors. 
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I'm not trying to start trouble here. I would just like to have a discussion based on Logic Reason and scientific facts about your conclusions. That is what Atheists are all about right?
  Well, if you actually had some scientific facts that supported your lies, or reason that would be good.  Logic can be useful but one can come to erroneous conclusions by logic if your presuppositions can’t be shown to be true. 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2012, 09:23:54 AM »
Here my take. Ugabuga knew people were going be amputated. He knew were going to lose limb. If he didn't want to he wouldn't allowed them lose a limb in first place.

Why should Ugagabuga heal amputees anyway? Is some reason he should? King Agga never did, he healed man withwithered hand but he didn't produce full new hand just restored old one. He healed leprosy and blindness and deafness so I suppose he produced working part where none were. With deaf man he even allowed him understand language and words he had never heard before. Even if Ugabuga did this it wouldn't make people give live Him. 9 Lepers didn't even thank him, children of Islands complained about  food that fell out of sky every day, the 5000 that fed didn't stand by King Agga and all follow they just wanted him keep providing food.

He didn't heal Mesoth who was Ghan's son in the ancient scrolls from being lame, he didn't heal Kon Ti's thorn in flesh and Kon Ti had great faith.

BTW on your introduction page Ancient Scroll Gigi 18:19 is about Shaman followers discipline and not about prayer, you really should read verses before it and after. I know it cliche but it true you really shouldn't take things out context. Are several verses out context there and all over site. I assuming you really don't know this. I'm assuming none of you know  Tangoan-Santo or Malekula or have access to it. Here help:

www.wikipedia

Also King Agga use Metaphors too and you should learn some scroll criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about Ancient scrolls. I read Atheist author regularly.


How can I seperate this from your statement?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Alzael

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2012, 09:42:14 AM »

How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.

There are no scientific studies. That's how we can say that as a fact. There is no evidence at all that this has ever happened. If you have some to produce, feel free to do so for it to be evaluated.

There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

No, the claim that it happens is disbelieved because there is no evidence to support it.

By the way, if you're trying something as old, tired, and ludicrous as the "You have faith too" card; you clearly have not read very many atheist books like you claim. Otherwise you would know better than to think this would be met with anything other than laughter.

Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible. I read Atheist authors regularly.

Then how do you tell the metaphors from the things that were meant literally? Unless you have some reliable way to tell the difference then anything you say is just speculation on your part.

For example a person is supposed to be capable of moving mountains through prayer. Since we are talking about an all-powerful being, there's no reason to think this wasn't meant to be serious. Of course we all know that it doesn't work in reality, however that could simply be becayse the god doesn't actually exist in the first place and the claim was made up.

As an interesting sidenote, every Christian I've ever met so far who tries to go the "textual criticism" route has quickly demonstrated they don't even really understand what this means or how to do it. Instead they used textual criticism as a euphemism for "twist the words around until it says what I want it to say". It will be fascinating to see if you disappoint as well.

I would just like to have a discussion based on Logic Reason and scientific facts about your conclusions. That is what Atheists are all about right?

Actually atheists are all about not believing in a god. That's all that atheism means. However in regards to this site, yes we are all about Logic, Reason, and Facts. As soon as you're ready to start using some we'll be more than happy to have a go at engaging with you.
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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 09:53:53 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place...

Here's all I need to know (bold mine). If your god exists he's a heartless bully.

Of course there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever for his existence, so its a moot point.
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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 10:27:09 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.

I admit to being intrigued - this idea of a certain amount of godly perfection is a direction most theists don't go.  The issue with it, of course, is free will - are you, perchance, a Calvinist?

You see, if the above is true, then - by extension - the idea has a fundamental problem.  You can extrapolate it fairly easily to say that what God intends is what exists - I am an atheist, in this construct, because God knew I would be an atheist and, in fact, made certain I would become one.

This gets to be fairly ugly fairly quickly - John Calvin was one of the first to point it out:  if predestination exists and hell exists, then God is essentially responsible for creations that a) are destined not to worship him and b) will be punished eternally for something outside of their control.  Just as killing the firstborn of Egypt wasn't actually a result of the Pharoah being the sort of idiot that willfully ignores miracles, but was, rather, a function of the fact that God insisted until he got his bloodbath... the entire existence of every nonbeliever is mandated by God unto destruction.

This turns God into the sort of deity that is akin to the young child pulling the wings off of flies. 

Does that make sense?  If everything is 'part of god's plan', then so is my eventual eternal torture and damnation.  Thus, God is evil.


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Why should God heal amputees anyway? Is there some reason he should?

Yes, actually.  It hinges (as so much does) on Matthew and Mark:

Matthew 7:7-8:    7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. "

Mark 11:23-25: "23 “Truly[a] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.” "

(NIV)

It's actually quite simple:  God says that he will give you all that you pray for, if you have even the smallest iota of faith - up to and including grand things like mountains moving.  However, when what is asked for is absolutely unambiguous - like an amputee healing, something impossible to happen by simple chance, God never comes through.  Thus the point of the question - since God says unambiguously that prayer is this powerful, how is it that only ambiguous miracles occur?

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... snip - stuff about Jesus and what he did and didn't do:

However, all of these things were absolutely unambiguous.  No such modern miracles take place, despite assurances that followers of this Christ will be able to do so - Mark 16:15-19 (though it is apocryphal):  "15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

Your faith says that if you have even the smallest shred of faith that you can do these things unambiguously.  If you have not, then you do not believe.

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BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline and not about prayer, you really should read the verses before it and after. I know it's cliche but it's true you really shouldn't take things out of context. There are several verses out of context there and all over this site. I'm assuming you really don't know this. I'm assuming none of you know Greek or Hebrew or have access to it. Here's help http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

... yes, we know.   The verses are fun and have their own problems (e.g., Jesus ate with Tax Collectors, yet v.17 tells you to 'treat them as you would a tax collector'.  Entertaining, at the very least. :) ), however, v.19 and 20 are another exhortation for prayer:   " 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” The point is, of course, that in dealing with the church that whatever you ask God to do to the apostate, he will do.

Given that several church congregations have prayed for my death over the years, I'm rather glad this promise is as false as any other.


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Also Jesus used Metaphors too and you should learn some textual criticism and Apologetics it would help when talking about the bible. I read Atheist authors regularly.

Yes he did (or he was attributed to have done so).  However, you cannot simply look at a passage and declare it 'metaphor'.  Take, for instance, the classic passage "this is my body which is given for you; whenever you eat it, do this in rememberence of me."   You and I would both immediately go "metaphor".  The Catholic church, on the other hand, believes this to be literal truth; in their faith, when a priest blesses the Eucharist, it Transubstantiates into the actual body and blood of Jesus. 

Apparently, he was made out of tasteless crackers and grapes - but the point is still there:  unless you have specific cause to declare something metaphorical (like a parable - those are good) there is a Christian sect out there somewhere that disagrees with your assessment.

Another example?  A few miles from my house are people that pass rattlesnakes around during the church service - see the passage above.  I think they're absolutely crazy, but they view it is as a requirement and proof of their faith.


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One more thing. from your front page.
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Key Point
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

*sigh*  You have absolutely no concept what 'belief' and 'faith' really are - and this is oddly sad, to me.

When you let go of a rock and it falls, did you 'believe' that it would fall in the same way you 'believe' in God?  It is unlikely - every single time you have ever dropped a rock, it has fallen.  Every single time anyone has ever dropped a rock here on Earth.. it has fallen.  It falls in the same way and at the same accelleration, it has calculatable air resistance.  We can predict what will happen to that rock every time you let it go before you do, to several decimal places of certainty.  In fact, the "only a Theory" of Gravity is, essentially, a fact.

Gravity is.  You don't go around trying to fly as you understand how useless flapping your arms can be.

Is that "belief"?  Sure! Yes.  I believe that, given the preponderance of evidence in the world around me, Gravity exists.  Of course, it doesn't matter if I do or not - things will still fall.

In the entire applicable history of humanity, in every medical case recorded to this point with any sort of reliability, no amputee has ever been healed.  In fact, dramatic miracle healings of all stripes have gotten rarer and rarer as medical science progresses and we learn more about the body, healing, and medicine.  It isn't much of a stretch to say that, a) given that the human body does not have regenerative properties that extend to amputations and b) no recorded case of amputations being healed has ever been verified, despite the larger number of safer amputations these days and better reporting from hospitals, that God doesn't heal amputees.

If God did, at some point in the distant past?  It has no bearing on whether God does now.

Given the promises in your bible, if God existed as written we should see at least the occasional healing, don't you think?  Shouldn't someone, somewhere, praying for someone without a limb, have the faith of a mustard seed that would enable them to perform miracles in the name of God?

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I'm not trying to start trouble here. I would just like to have a discussion based on Logic Reason and scientific facts about your conclusions. That is what Atheists are all about right?

Most of us, yes.  However, you have to begin a little differently - if I may be so bold as to offer a starting point:

- Rather than assuming your bible is true, can you instead offer evidence that validates any of its claims?  My basis for reality doesn't include your holy book.
"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

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Offline velkyn

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 10:28:22 AM »
co is rather like his god.  he's one of those Christians who vanishes when convenient (like here in this thread: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19369.msg428309.html#msg428309 ) and returns to make the same baseless claims.  I wonder if he thought he prayed enough for his nonsense to be accepted. 
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Online Aaron123

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 11:08:55 AM »
Here is my take. God knew these people were going to be amputated. He knew they were going to lose a limb. If he didn't want them to he wouldn't have allowed them to lose a limb in the first place.

What is the difference between this, and a scenario where god does not exists?


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He healed leprosy and blindness and deafness so I suppose he produced working parts where none were.


Did god know or want those people to be blind/deaf/etc?  If so, why give them special treatment, but not the amputee?


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Even if God did this it wouldn't make people give their lives to Him. The 9 Lepers didn't even thank him, the children of Israel complained about the food that fell out of the sky every day, the 5000 that were fed didn't stand by Jesus and all follow him they just wanted him to keep providing food.


God is such a selfish prick.  He won't do anything because they won't bow down to him?  Clearly, god needs to learn that a good deed is its own reward.


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How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

Ah, the "reverse/unintended faith" babble.  The definitive proof that prayer doesn't work.

If prayer did work, you wouldn't make this argument.  You would just make a prayer, and have it demostrate itself before us.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 12:33:53 PM »

Why would God intervene in any of them?
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Why indeed? God doesn't have to intervene does he? Even if he never answered one prayer it still wouldn't prove he didn't exist. It doesn't logically follow.

BTW on your introduction page Matthew 18:19 is about church discipline
Actually it's about how to handle a brother who has sinned against you. I have done so just now, and find that the idea of the "two brothers" asking for the same thing and receiving it by God's grace to be consistent with the notion of answered prayer.
 
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It's what's used in church as church discipline,
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
I'm not going to argue this point any further, it's not about prayer and I suppose you know that.

Online Dante

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 12:40:57 PM »
Why indeed? God doesn't have to intervene does he? Even if he never answered one prayer it still wouldn't prove he didn't exist. It doesn't logically follow.

You're right, it doesn't prove he doesn't exist. It does however, prove that the Bible is inaccurate, at best. So why do you believe what it says about everything else?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 12:42:49 PM »
One more thing. from your front page.
Key Point
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No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.
How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

I don't see why you are protesting this, since you yourself said that God will not heal amputees. YOU would anticipate that no amputees would be healed just as much as we would. Additionally, considering all of the (bogus) stories of faith healing in other medical cases, you would think there would be at least one (even if it was bogus) case of a restored, previously missing limb. If such a thing were to happen it would NOT be overlooked, ESPECIALLY by believers such as yourself.
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I didn't say God will not heal amputees? I said why should he? You assume the medical cases are bogus as you assume that No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, God will not answer their prayer and yet you have no real proof of that. All you have is BELIEF.
Atheists claim to be grounded in reason and logic but they mostly are emotional and they have faith in their convictions and don't follow reason. Just because God doesn't heal amputees "as far as you and I know" doesn't mean he can't or won't or hasn't" you don't have ultimate knowledge. If he did heal one you would explain it away as you have the other healings.

Offline Alzael

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 12:46:23 PM »
Co.Inkadink please get your quoting straight at the very least.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Online Dante

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 12:49:02 PM »
I didn't say God will not heal amputees? I said why should he? You assume the medical cases are bogus as you assume that No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, God will not answer their prayer and yet you have no real proof of that. All you have is BELIEF.

Au contraire, we have the lack of belief that your god heals via miracles. The reason we lack belief, is because you lack evidence of your claims.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 12:49:48 PM »
How can you possibly know this? I know you BELIEVE this and it sounds like you BELIEVE it's an absolute fact which I didn't think Atheists held. Anyway I'd like to see your scientific studies that you've done on this with all the faithful Christians you've tested it on.
There are scientific studies right? You didn't just put this statement up there because you BELIEVE IT BY FAITH DID YOU?

I do think there are absolute facts. I just beleive we must use evidence to even approximate them in our brains.

But on FAITH

Yes it is a kind of faith. It is that same kind of faith that I have that my shoes do not fly around my room when I am asleep and no recording devices are present. I'm sure you share that same faith, the faith of NoFlyingShoeswhlesleeping, how's that faith working out for you? Does it require a deep conviction of resolute solemnity, or do you have that faith because the proposition that your shoes fly around when you are asleep is in contradiction to everything observable about reality?

« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 12:53:49 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 12:50:21 PM »
Why indeed? God doesn't have to intervene does he? Even if he never answered one prayer it still wouldn't prove he didn't exist. It doesn't logically follow.
It sure would if he promises to answers prayers. Even if Matthew 18:19 isn't about prayer, there are plenty of other places where it is promised that prayers will be answered. Don't pretend like there's not. And your response does not answer this question of mine:
Quote from: The Lord Kaz Almighty
But why even do that, if God had wanted it to be withered in the first place? The "logic" that you claim as if it were self evident regarding amputees should be equally applicable to any illness, injury, or birth defect. If it is such an obvious explanation for amputees, then it is for all other conditions as well. Why would God intervene in any of them?
Come on, don't just skip the main points and think that I won't notice.

 
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It's what's used in church as church discipline,
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
I'm not going to argue this point any further, it's not about prayer and I suppose you know that.
No, it's saying that if a disagreement can't be solved between two individuals, or with the addition of a few others witnessing to help in determining the case, then it is to be taken to the church as yet another authority to arbitrate the dispute. Also, you are forgetting: Matthew 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.  Don't forget ALL of the context here.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 12:52:40 PM »
so, coink, we have a god that you know say still exists even though it breaks its promise to answer prayers quickly and positively.  Well, that's par for the course, Christians who make up their own god so they can excuse its failures.   You're more then welcome to claim that this god of yours doesn't have to answer prayers or claim that the bible is wrong in what it says about *your* god. 

I'm waiting for Christians if they can actually do the things that the bible claism they can to volunteer to do so.  There's a local veterans hospital with amputees, lost eyes, lost hearing, cancers from all sorts of things, so where are the healings that any humane and honorable person would want to heal if they could?  Why do Christians fail so badly?  Are they not really followers of Jesus Christ and that's why they have no miracle abilities?  Is it that their god simply doesn't exist?  It seems that you are like a lot of Christians full of excuses and demands but having no evidence that your claism are true. 

One does not need to test every Christian to see if he/she is a real Christian and then to see if they can perform prayers to heal someone of something obvious.  One just needs to look aroudn at the hospitals full of people, including Christians who evidently can't even rely on prayers for healing themselves.  If prayers worked, then no Christians would be in cancer wards, rehablitiation for amputations, etc.   
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Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 12:55:03 PM »
Why indeed? God doesn't have to intervene does he? Even if he never answered one prayer it still wouldn't prove he didn't exist. It doesn't logically follow.

You're right, it doesn't prove he doesn't exist. It does however, prove that the Bible is inaccurate, at best. So why do you believe what it says about everything else?
Yes it would prove the Bible was innacurate but God has answered prayer. Here's some good info about the Bible Apologetics and Christianity.
http://crossexamined.org/index.asp
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7975
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Some of the questions about morality the historicity of the Bible and alot f the other questins raised in this thread are answered there.

I read Atheist authors regularly maybe you can check out these sites and look at it from another perspective.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 12:57:22 PM »
Yes it would prove the Bible was innacurate but God has answered prayer. Here's some good info about the Bible Apologetics and Christianity.
http://crossexamined.org/index.asp
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7975
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Some of the questions about morality the historicity of the Bible and alot f the other questins raised in this thread are answered there.

I read Atheist authors regularly maybe you can check out these sites and look at it from another perspective.

Apologetics is the exercise of creating elaborite explanations of why it just appears the the Emperor has no clothes.



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Some of the questions about morality the historicity of the Bible and alot f the other questins raised in this thread are answered there.

love the assumption we haven't read such nonsense as those links, especially WLC's nonsense, before.  I have and many here have.  Why don't you pull out one of the arguments you find most compelling rather than just spewing links?  I'd be happy to address it for you.
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Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 01:03:50 PM »
Come on, don't just skip the main points and think that I won't notice.
But why even do that, if God had wanted it to be withered in the first place? The "logic" that you claim as if it were self evident regarding amputees should be equally applicable to any illness, injury, or birth defect. If it is such an obvious explanation for amputees, then it is for all other conditions as well. Why would God intervene in any of them?
OK I wasn't trying to trick you. My answer is why indeed? Why didn't God heal Paul or Mephibosheth? I don't know. It doesn't matter, he does heal some and not others. God saves some and not others as well. I don't know why, I don't know why he doesn't save everyone but I've met some Atheists who say they wouldn't become Christians even if they knew Christianity is true.

I've offered evidence on other sites about the Bible it's veracity and other facts about the christian faith and have had them shot down.
I'll try again here in the future. I look forward to some discussions. It doesn't have to be a battle.

Online Dante

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 01:05:47 PM »
Yes it would prove the Bible was innacurate

Thank you for that concession, but you didn't answer the question; why do you believe in any of it (the Bible)?

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but God has answered prayer.

We hear this alot, but seriously, can you see our point of view? All answered prayer is ambiguous to an outsider. Sure, if god answers your prayer, you can make the connection, but we, from the outside, simply cannot without unambiguous evidence. Surely, you can imagine why this would be the case, can't you?


 
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Here's some good info about the Bible Apologetics and Christianity.
http://crossexamined.org/index.asp
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7975
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Some of the questions about morality the historicity of the Bible and alot f the other questins raised in this thread are answered there.

I read Atheist authors regularly maybe you can check out these sites and look at it from another perspective.

Thanks. I'll peruse them this evening.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline sun_king

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 01:12:12 PM »
I've offered evidence on other sites about the Bible it's veracity and other facts about the christian faith and have had them shot down.

What does this mean? You lost those battles?
Veracity of the Bible ??? Now that's what I call an oxymoron!
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I'll try again here in the future.
Good Luck.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 01:13:34 PM »
I'm waiting for Christians if they can actually do the things that the bible claism they can to volunteer to do so.  There's a local veterans hospital with amputees, lost eyes, lost hearing, cancers from all sorts of things, so where are the healings that any humane and honorable person would want to heal if they could?  Why do Christians fail so badly?  Are they not really followers of Jesus Christ and that's why they have no miracle abilities?  Is it that their god simply doesn't exist?  It seems that you are like a lot of Christians full of excuses and demands but having no evidence that your claim are true. 

One does not need to test every Christian to see if he/she is a real Christian and then to see if they can perform prayers to heal someone of something obvious.  One just needs to look around at the hospitals full of people, including Christians who evidently can't even rely on prayers for healing themselves.  If prayers worked, then no Christians would be in cancer wards, rehabilitation for amputations, etc.
I wouldn't say Christians fail, I would say they haven't tried to do those things. Maybe Christians don't have enough faith to believe that God could heal an amputation, maybe they've never thought about it before, I know I've never thought about it before I heard about this site.
The reason I came here is because this is such a unique argument.

I have trouble when Atheists use words like Honorable and Humane though, in a world of blind chance of cause and effect where morals are decided by society and culture, where there is no meaning or point to life or anything it strikes me odd that you use such words to describe things.

These things that you describe they are just things that happen if you are an Atheist there is no sort of moral value to them.

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2012, 01:15:54 PM »
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Some of the questions about morality the historicity of the Bible and alot f the other questins raised in this thread are answered there.

love the assumption we haven't read such nonsense as those links, especially WLC's nonsense, before.  I have and many here have.  Why don't you pull out one of the arguments you find most compelling rather than just spewing links?  I'd be happy to address it for you.
Yes William Lane Craig, he's the one that Richard Dawkins will not debate. You ought to watch some of his debates where he debates the points and the Atheist just keeps spewing God is evil Christianity is bad for 2 hours.

Offline Nick

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2012, 01:19:49 PM »
You don't need fear of a sky daddy or a hell to be a moral person.  Why do Christians always think that?  I'm a good person because I want to be.  It's a part of me.  Call it human nature.  Lots of crime/murder is committed by your Christians.  You are right about society and morals.  It is something we brought with us from the caves to help society build and flourish.  I do a lot of volunteer work to help others.  Doing it is its own reward.  Life is just that.  The purpose (if you must have one) is to live it...each day of it...because that is all you have.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Co.Inkadink

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2012, 01:20:14 PM »
I've offered evidence on other sites about the Bible it's veracity and other facts about the christian faith and have had them shot down.
What does this mean? You lost those battles?
Well in a world of meaninglessness I didn't lose anything. But Atheists do tend to just gloss over facts when they don't suit them. I could give you links to those debates but I'm sure you'd agree with them. I'll probably cut and paste some of those arguments from those debates in the future since it took years to refine some of them. I'll probably get the same response but the bottom line is I love people and I want them to know the truth. I am a glutton for punishment.

Online Dante

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Re: My Opinion on WWGHA?
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2012, 01:21:59 PM »

I have trouble when Atheists use words like Honorable and Humane though, in a world of blind chance of cause and effect where morals are decided by society and culture, where there is no meaning or point to life or anything it strikes me odd that you use such words to describe things.

These things that you describe they are just things that happen if you are an Atheist there is no sort of moral value to them.

That's a very pessimistic viewpoint, hombre.

Think about this: Is the only reason you have morals is because of your fear of god's punishment? Would you, in fact, be a rapist, murderer, or worse if you didn't believe? I contend that you would not. You would be no more immoral whether you believed in hell, or not.

And thanks for working on your quoting! It makes it so much easier to comprehend.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.