Author Topic: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?  (Read 3998 times)

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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #58 on: April 09, 2012, 11:04:25 AM »
If someone was an atheist but based it on nothing more than looking around and feeling that it's all just material and that there's nothing else, who here would consider that a wrong reason?

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #59 on: April 09, 2012, 11:11:26 AM »
If someone was an atheist but based it on nothing more than looking around and feeling that it's all just material and that there's nothing else, who here would consider that a wrong reason?

Peace.

that's pretty much my reason to be an atheist.  Unless you have evidence of something other than the "material" aka reality, there's no reason to believe in anything else.  This is why I do not believe in ghosts, gods, spirits, fairies, etc.  Woomeisters waving their hands and saying "oooh look at me, I know a magic secret" with nothing to support it don't impress me.

EDIT:  I would replace the word "feeling" with knowing to the best of my abilities.  Feeling somethign is worthless.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:33:29 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #60 on: April 09, 2012, 11:12:58 AM »
If someone was an atheist but based it on nothing more than looking around and feeling that it's all just material and that there's nothing else, who here would consider that a wrong reason?

Is the existance of what we can observe made easier or harder to explain by suggesting the existance of things we cannot observe?

Please answer.  Easier, or harder?
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2012, 11:18:55 AM »
Is the existance of what we can observe made easier or harder to explain by suggesting the existance of things we cannot observe?

Please answer.  Easier, or harder?

To answer your question with a question, how is its easyness or difficulty an issue?

Peace.
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Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2012, 11:19:32 AM »
If someone was an atheist but based it on nothing more than looking around and feeling that it's all just material and that there's nothing else, who here would consider that a wrong reason?

Peace.

I'm pulled both ways on this one.  I would think that a simple look around would suffice, yet I don't think I'm fully comfortable with that answer.  The universe does appear as we'd expect it to were there no gods, but I think more evidence than what we can merely observe has been presented.

Mark me as undecided.  We may be getting into agnostic vs atheist, and such conversations often leave me with little more than a migraine.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:21:10 AM by Ice Monkey »
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2012, 11:21:14 AM »
Ice Monkey, let me a throw out a question to make this more interesting. What would a universe with a god be like?

Peace.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2012, 11:22:13 AM »

To answer your question with a question, how is its easyness or difficulty an issue?


It directly pertains to your previous comment.  Please have the courage to answer the simple, straight ahead question.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2012, 11:22:55 AM »
It directly pertains to your previous comment.  Please have the courage to answer the simple, straight ahead question.

Sometimes it's interesting to know the reason for a question.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #66 on: April 09, 2012, 11:26:07 AM »
Ice Monkey, let me a throw out a question to make this more interesting. What would a universe with a god be like?

Peace.

One that appeared to be designed by whim, not naturally-occuring processes that adhere to laws of physics, as well as one with more love and less empty space.  It would be similar to the descriptions of heaven.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #67 on: April 09, 2012, 11:26:53 AM »
Sometimes it's interesting to know the reason for a question.

So basically we should take from this that when presented with a simple question which challenges your position, you abandon intellectual honesty and squirm, wriggle and contort under the pressure.  Please just answer the question.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #68 on: April 09, 2012, 11:28:48 AM »

One that appeared to be designed by whim, not naturally-occuring processes that adhere to laws of physics, as well as one with more love and less empty space.  It would be similar to the descriptions of heaven.

How would you make judgements on that, if it would be the only universe you would know?

Peace.
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Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #69 on: April 09, 2012, 11:30:31 AM »
How would you make judgements on that, if it would be the only universe you would know?

Peace.
If the only knew a universe that was already like that, I wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2012, 11:31:32 AM »

So basically we should take from this that when presented with a simple question which challenges your position, you abandon intellectual honesty and squirm, wriggle and contort under the pressure.  Please just answer the question.

You answered my question with a question, and I don't mind that. I'd like to go back at some point to see what your answer to my question is, but for now I'm quite happy to take the detour that you've created with your question to me.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #71 on: April 09, 2012, 11:32:30 AM »
If the only knew a universe that was already like that, I wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

That creates a dilemma doesn't it? We can only observe the universe that we're faced with.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2012, 11:34:49 AM »
That creates a dilemma doesn't it? We can only observe the universe that we're faced with.

Peace.
Indeed. And there is no evidence for anything but what we can observe and detect.  Therefore, since there is nothing demonstrating that there is anythign supernatural at work, there is no reason to accept a "God" and atheism is the supported stance.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2012, 11:35:26 AM »
Sometimes it's interesting to know the reason for a question.

To know your answer to that question.
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Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2012, 11:35:35 AM »
If the only knew a universe that was already like that, I wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

That creates a dilemma doesn't it? We can only observe the universe that we're faced with.

Peace.

Correct, though I can easily imagine other ones.  I suppose if I lived in a universe where god skipped a step and all was as in heaven, I could ask myself what a universe just left to it's own devices (natural processes) might be like.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2012, 11:37:27 AM »
Correct, though I can easily imagine other ones.  I suppose if I lived in a universe where god skipped a step and all was as in heaven, I could ask myself what a universe just left to it's own devices (natural processes) might be like.

I don't believe in heaven so I don't know what to say about that. I suppose all we can do is just look at what we've got and try and make sense of it in whatever way feels right to us.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2012, 11:38:29 AM »
Indeed. And there is no evidence for anything but what we can observe and detect.  Therefore, since there is nothing demonstrating that there is anythign supernatural at work, there is no reason to accept a "God" and atheism is the supported stance.

I don't believe in supernatural gods. I don't even know how that would work.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2012, 11:43:04 AM »

I don't believe in supernatural gods. I don't even know how that would work.

Peace.

Actually you do. That's why you give it supernatual qualities.

I also note that you refuse to give a single straight and honest answer to anything that you say. Might I point out that dodging and stonewalling are against the rules.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:44:39 AM by Alzael »
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2012, 11:46:19 AM »
Actually you do. That's why you give it supernatual qualities.

I also note that you refuse to give a single straight and honest answer to anything that you say. Might I point out that dodging and stonewalling are against the rules.

What qualities do I give it that are supernatural? As for dodging, there's nothing wrong with addressing a question with a question. It's not dodging, it's getting to the heart of the question, and it is useful, which is why people do it. Star Stuff did it, and I did it.

Peace.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #79 on: April 09, 2012, 11:48:47 AM »
You answered my question with a question, and I don't mind that. I'd like to go back at some point to see what your answer to my question is, but for now I'm quite happy to take the detour that you've created with your question to me.
No, you answered his question with a question.  And while asking about the relevance of a question is not usually inappropriate, it is when you give the impression of dodging the question by pedantically insisting that your question be answered first.  You can surely answer whether it's easier or harder to explain the existence of things we can observe by postulating things we cannot without giving Star Stuff the third degree on why he asked you the question in the first place.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #80 on: April 09, 2012, 11:52:09 AM »
What qualities do I give it that are supernatural?

These for starters.


Qualities : Loving, infinite, superbly creative and playful, self existent, mysterious, perfect, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, lovely and pretty damn sexy.

Peace and blessings.

As for dodging, there's nothing wrong with addressing a question with a question. It's not dodging, it's getting to the heart of the question, and it is useful, which is why people do it. Star Stuff did it, and I did it.

Peace.

I was speaking in regards to your overall behaviour. Hence why I said "I also note that you refuse to give a single straight and honest answer to anything that you say."

At no point did I mention your back and forth with Star Stuff in particular. But while we're on that subject, you can feel free to respond to that now.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #81 on: April 09, 2012, 11:53:21 AM »
I asked a question, and then star stuff responded with a question. I have no problem with that. Then I responded to his question with a question, and now everyone has a problem with that, including star stuff, who is the very person who started the whole thing by responding to a question with a question. It looks like double standards. Everything that can be said has been said and I won't waste any more of my energy on this conversation.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #82 on: April 09, 2012, 11:54:27 AM »
Alzael, the question is, are those qualities supernatural? What do you think, and why?

Peace.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #83 on: April 09, 2012, 11:56:03 AM »
I asked a question, and then star stuff responded with a question. I have no problem with that. Then I responded to his question with a question, and now everyone has a problem with that, including star stuff, who is the very person who started the whole thing by responding to a question with a question. It looks like double standards. Everything that can be said has been said and I won't waste any more of my energy on this conversation.

Peace.

It is not a double standard. It is a cowardly cop out on your part. Please respond to Star Stuffs question now.


"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Strawman

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #84 on: April 09, 2012, 11:56:14 AM »
Post was heavily updated so I re-posted it and removed from here.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:37:36 PM by Strawman »
If God exists at all he clearly wishes to reside exclusively in the imagination.

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #85 on: April 09, 2012, 11:59:20 AM »
Please respond to Star Stuffs question now.[/b][/color]

No.

Peace.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Can one be an atheist for the "wrong" reasons?
« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2012, 12:03:01 PM »
Alzael, the question is, are those qualities supernatural? What do you think, and why?

Peace.

Well for starters onmipotence would necessarily mean possessing the ability to go beyond the limits of logic and the natural world.

Also since two things cannot occupy the same space at one time, in order for god to be omnipresent he would have to be somehow able to co-exist as a conscious that has no physical presence. No physical presence means that he cannot be natural.

And he is supposedly all-knowing, which means he has knowledge of all things anywhere. Which would necessitate the possession of many supernatural abilities. Such as telepathy, and clairvoyance.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.