Author Topic: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?  (Read 2575 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« on: April 06, 2012, 08:19:36 AM »
Why are things like anal sex considered sinful? It's nowhere prohibited in the bible. But at least to the several christian girls I knew, it was definitely sinful. Is it simple self projection as god?

How can the theists say god is the source of their morals when he fails to condemn anal sex, cloning,
stem cell culturing and such that modern theists have deemed sinful?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 08:24:23 AM »
Like you said, it's all SPAG. Some don't understand what it is that they're trying to ban. Others do and just want to force everyone to do what they want.
"Banning something because it's against your religion is like getting mad at someone for eating a burger because you're on a diet."[1]
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Offline Nick

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 09:48:54 AM »
I don't know.  Seems to me that God (or his minions) have been butt-f*cking the rest of us on a regular basis.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline changeling

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 01:42:23 PM »
Why are things like anal sex considered sinful? It's nowhere prohibited in the bible. But at least to the several christian girls I knew, it was definitely sinful. Is it simple self projection as god?

How can the theists say god is the source of their morals when he fails to condemn anal sex, cloning,
stem cell culturing and such that modern theists have deemed sinful?

Because it is the same a spilling your seed, and God killed people for doing that
instead of making some woman pregnant.

Gen 38:9
And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of Jehovah: and he slew him also.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 01:47:27 PM by changeling »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2012, 10:09:56 AM »
Sex is one of the most basic and important human activities. Of course they want to control it. Why do you think they also make rules about what you should eat? If they can control you on the most basic level, they can make you do anything.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2012, 01:55:13 PM »
Sex is one of the most basic and important human activities. Of course they want to control it. Why do you think they also make rules about what you should eat? If they can control you on the most basic level, they can make you do anything.
There's a much simpler explanation, if you go back to the original tribes that Judaism came from.  First off, some foods really are dangerous to eat (either because they're toxic, or because they need special preparation that a tribe of herdsmen simply couldn't do), and thus tribal leaders would have wanted to keep their people from eating those foods and sickening or dying.  Some of the sexual restrictions make sense in the same light - they didn't want the herdsmen to try to screw the sheep, for example, or to be screwing each other instead of watching the sheep.

So I don't think it was control for the sake of being able to make them do anything, at least not originally, it was to keep stupid people from doing things that would damage the tribe.

Offline inveni0

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2012, 09:28:19 AM »
Is it just a rumor that syphilis came from sheep?  AIDS from monkeys/apes?  Who knows?  It had to come from SOMEWHERE, right.  So let's make a rule that we can't f*ck animals.  That's fine with me.  But the sex we have with people?  Do whatever you want, as long as you understand the risks of rectal tearing.
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2012, 09:31:40 AM »
How can the theists say god is the source of their morals when he fails to condemn anal sex, cloning,
stem cell culturing and such that modern theists have deemed sinful?

Not all theists are alike. I'm a theist and as far as I'm concerned, anal sex is fine. Why not. Cloning is pretty pointless though. There's a difference between cleverness and wisdom. It's clever to be able to produce a nuclear bomb or to clone someone, but not wise to actually do it.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2012, 09:42:55 AM »
How can the theists say god is the source of their morals when he fails to condemn anal sex, cloning,
stem cell culturing and such that modern theists have deemed sinful?

Not all theists are alike. I'm a theist and as far as I'm concerned, anal sex is fine. Why not. Cloning is pretty pointless though. There's a difference between cleverness and wisdom. It's clever to be able to produce a nuclear bomb or to clone someone, but not wise to actually do it.

Peace.

So do you claim that you get your morals from god?
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Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2012, 09:45:45 AM »
So do you claim that you get your morals from god?

I get my morals from myself.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2012, 10:24:28 AM »
Johnny, please stop adding "Peace" to the end of your posts. It's annoying, borderline preaching since you do it for EVERY post and it has nothing to do with the conversation, and it's already in your signature.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Johnny Spunkypants

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2012, 10:26:25 AM »
Johnny, please stop adding "Peace" to the end of your posts. It's annoying, borderline preaching since you do it for EVERY post and it has nothing to do with the conversation, and it's already in your signature.

With the greatest of respect this is who I am. Life is full of annoyances, but let's not fall out over something like this.

Peace.
I'm not here to defend my views. I'm here simply to give my two cents.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2012, 10:32:07 AM »
Johnny, please stop adding "Peace" to the end of your posts. It's annoying, borderline preaching since you do it for EVERY post and it has nothing to do with the conversation, and it's already in your signature.

"Serenity now!"
---------from Seinfeld

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2012, 11:39:49 AM »
How can the theists say god is the source of their morals ..

I get my morals from myself.

Peace.

Then I wasn't speaking about you, but rather others that do claim this. Specifically christians that claim this.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2012, 12:02:01 PM »
With the greatest of respect this is who I am. Life is full of annoyances, but let's not fall out over something like this.

Peace.

It is who you are to say peace TWICE after each comment?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2012, 05:45:31 PM »
First off, some foods really are dangerous to eat (either because they're toxic, or because they need special preparation that a tribe of herdsmen simply couldn't do),

What foods are those?  They do not appear to be any of the foods forbidden in the OT.

Pork is not inherently toxic or dangerous.  Non-jews all over Canaan ate pork without problem.  Where ever pork was available in the world, people have eaten in in relative safety since forever. 

Shellfish are not inherently toxic or dangerous except for those unfortunate few who are allergic.  Where ever there are shellfish and people, shellfish have been safely eaten since forever.

Cooking goat in milk is not inherently toxic or dangerous.

Any meat must be handled with some care or you can get sick from it.  The idea that mosaic food laws were for practical health benefit is one that is popular, but not well founded in reality.

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Offline Quartinium

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2012, 06:48:27 PM »
It's hard to cook pork thoroughly enough over a campfire to insure that all parasitic organisms are killed. Additionally to a people not completely aware of proper hygeine the fact that pigs are okay with living in filth would make them appear to be unclean animals.

Watching some one die of asphyxiation from a shellfish allergy would have been all it would take for the whole tribe to decide that God didn't want people to be eating shellfish.

I think the bit about not cooking a kid in it's mother's milk is an admonition against cruelty. I mean think about it a little. You milk the goat then boil it's own baby in that milk. That seems unnecessarily cruel.

Other posters are correct in that proper food handling will prevent most illnesses. But we're talking about people who don't know about proper food handling as defined by current health standards. Their whole reason for everything is god so it makes sense, in my mind, that their hygeine laws would be archaic and framed in terms they would have understood.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2012, 09:02:30 PM »
It's hard to cook pork thoroughly enough over a campfire to insure that all parasitic organisms are killed. Additionally to a people not completely aware of proper hygeine the fact that pigs are okay with living in filth would make them appear to be unclean animals.

Bollocks.  Ever been to a luau?  They cook a pig over a fire.

As I pointed out, every other culture on the planet that had access to pigs has eaten pork without any major hindrance for as long as there have been pigs and people.  It could not possibly be that difficult. 

Watching some one die of asphyxiation from a shellfish allergy would have been all it would take for the whole tribe to decide that God didn't want people to be eating shellfish.

plausible, but again, every other culture on the planet that had access to shellfish has eaten shellfish without any major hindrance for as long as there have been shellfish and people.


I think the bit about not cooking a kid in it's mother's milk is an admonition against cruelty. I mean think about it a little. You milk the goat then boil it's own baby in that milk. That seems unnecessarily cruel.

This is the basis for the kosher laws wherein they cannot mix meat and dairy.  Hamburgers - okay.  Cheeseburgers - you get stoned to death.  And my whole point was about jaime's statement about "dangerous food".  This is not even remotely dangerous.

But we're talking about people who don't know about proper food handling as defined by current health standards.

I do not think that is quite true.  I think a pastoral people who ate beef, sheep, goats fowl etc, would pretty quickly figure out how to handle meat or natural selection would take care of them.  I think you have to go back a lot further than the bronze age to find people who were too stupid to figure out what to eat.  Or a lot farther into the future.

Besides that, ask an orthodox jew what the kosher laws are for and he will tell you it is not about hygiene or food safety.  It is about spiritual purity.

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Offline Quartinium

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2012, 10:23:35 PM »
So jews of the past just came up with some dietary laws out of nothing and decided to follow them because it made them spirtually pure.

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2012, 11:05:28 PM »
Ever see a kid catch "koodies"? Observing a group of kids with an imaginary virus going on, you learn a lot about people, including ancient hebrews.

My Oxford study bible describes sin as a spiritual disease thing. You can catch it all sorts of ways, including eating the wrong foods or being near a dirty menstrutrating girl (ewww kooties!!!).



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Offline screwtape

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 07:12:34 AM »
So jews of the past just came up with some dietary laws out of nothing and decided to follow them because it made them spirtually pure.

uh, yeah, something like that.

I'm sure there is a reason and it is probably as stupid as the reason moslems consider dogs to be filthy vermin - mohammed didn't like dogs.  But whatever the reason, it was not for their health.  If eating pork is a universal health factor, then why do other cultures not have similar taboos?[1]  Where are The chinese, hawaiian, european, turk, or african taboos on eating pork?  How about shellfish?  If shellfish is such a health risk, where are other people's solutions to that problem?

I've pointed out here before that pork is no more dangerous than any other meat.  I have seen beef recalled by the ton, chicken, lettuce, chili peppers, but I cannot recall ever seeing problems with pork.  Whatever the reason for kosher laws, it was not health.


 1. muslims don't count.  They were copycats, borrowing jewish tradition.
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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 02:33:46 PM »
Why are things like anal sex considered sinful? It's nowhere prohibited in the bible.
God is against this, He mentions it in the NT  just in case you were consiering stuffing it up the wrong hole.


Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men , leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet

Anything a woman does that is against nature: is a sin.

And don't pretend that poking the chocolate starfish is at all natural!
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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 05:01:24 PM »
This is the basis for the kosher laws wherein they cannot mix meat and dairy.  Hamburgers - okay.  Cheeseburgers - you get stoned to death.  And my whole point was about jaime's statement about "dangerous food".  This is not even remotely dangerous.

So, is the kosher law that you can't MIX meat with dairy?  If so, can you eat them at the same meal??  Because that goes through a whole lotta mixin in yer gullet . . .
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2012, 06:00:47 AM »
God is against this, He mentions it in the NT  just in case you were considering stuffing it up the wrong hole.


Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men , leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet

Anything a woman does that is against nature: is a sin.

And don't pretend that poking the chocolate starfish is at all natural!
Ah! It's so obvious that the writer of that verse is truly under the direct guidance of god's hand, for only a god could make such a perfectly clear and perfectly communicated sentence. No vagueness there! Someday, when man is more advanced, this wording will become the common medical vernacular. When you visit the doctor in the future he will ask you if you've been "change(ing) the natural use into that which is against nature, or if you've been "receiving in themselves that recompense of their error".

Though I don't doubt the reference to homosexuality here, my reading of the verse is that women to women and man to man sex is wrong and homosexual taking it up the butt is wrong, but it is not clear that it is wrong for a man to use a woman in any way he deems fit. It's quite vague.

I'm glad that god has clearly told us that it's ok for a man to "USE" a woman though. I feel I have missed out on so many godly pleasures.
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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2012, 09:23:16 AM »
Quite frankly, I think the word "wrong" is completely irrelevant when it comes to consensual sex. Many animals engage in anal sex, so it seems logical that it's not at all unnatural. Mammals are very sexual beings. It's natural to do all kinds of things that give pleasure. Trying to put a stamp of "wrongness" on consentual adult behavior just seems controlling and irrelevant to me. Not every behavior comes under the "wrong or right" umbrella. Many behaviors are morally neutral. In my opinion, consensual adult sex of any kind is morally neutral.

But those who try to control what other consenting adults do sexually? They're the ones who are wrong.  ;)
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 09:41:47 AM »
Quite frankly, I think the word "wrong" is completely irrelevant when it comes to consensual sex. Many animals engage in anal sex, so it seems logical that it's not at all unnatural. Mammals are very sexual beings. It's natural to do all kinds of things that give pleasure. Trying to put a stamp of "wrongness" on consentual adult behavior just seems controlling and irrelevant to me. Not every behavior comes under the "wrong or right" umbrella. Many behaviors are morally neutral. In my opinion, consensual adult sex of any kind is morally neutral.

But those who try to control what other consenting adults do sexually? They're the ones who are wrong.  ;)

I have absolutely no problem with anal sex, and I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise.  But could you share WHICH animals engage in anal sex?  Under what conditions is this behavior observed?  Is it limited to higher-functioning animals (emotional animals, like dogs, cats, etc), or does the behavior extend to lower-functioning animals (snakes, flies, etc)?
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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 10:11:15 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

All the way down to gut worms. See above article.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 11:58:39 AM »
So, is the kosher law that you can't MIX meat with dairy?  If so, can you eat them at the same meal??  Because that goes through a whole lotta mixin in yer gullet . . .

Correct, you cannot eat them at the same meal or even have them at the same table.  Orthodox jews have two separate refrigerators, two sets of untesils, pots, pans, plates and sometimes two kitchens.[1]  It's a total pain in the ass.

As for them mixing in yer gullet, they have to wait 3-6 hours[2] to eat one if they've eaten the other. 

F-in crazy, innit?

more information:
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm

Quote
However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health.
...
The short answer to why Jews observe these laws is: because the Torah says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason. Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws.

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 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_cuisine#Kashrut.E2.80.94Jewish_dietary_laws
 2. depending whom you ask
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Offline inveni0

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Re: Moral Spag - Why are things like anal sex considered sinful?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 12:02:23 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

All the way down to gut worms. See above article.

Excellent.

With such a wide range of homosexual behavior (though I noticed that the actual ACT of anal sex was rarely mentioned, and simple partnerships were mentioned instead), you'd have to wonder if homosexuality is a product of evolution in some sense.  I've often wondered if it's nature's answer to over population.
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