Author Topic: a little help here  (Read 344 times)

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Offline JeR

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a little help here
« on: April 06, 2012, 06:50:20 AM »
I've been doing a lot of posting on comment sections on religious articles.  I know the answers are probably somewhere here on WWGHA, but I don't always have the time to research.  I would like to put the nail in the coffin of a couple arguments I've run into the last few weeks.  They are:

Theism is the only source for moral absolutes.

and....proof of god:

1. The universe exists
2. The fine tuning of the universe
3. The rational intelligibility of the universe
4. The existence of moral absolutes

I know this is some form of Kalam and total bullsht.

These are total BS arguments.  I've gone round and round with the theists, but would like to introduce some new arguments that I may not have thought of.

Thanks
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
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Offline Nodak

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2012, 06:54:38 AM »
Watch some lawerence kraus videos....google the universe from nothing on you tube for starters

Can you give an example of a moral absolue?

Offline One Above All

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2012, 07:06:55 AM »
Alright, let's see what we have here...

Theism is NOT a source for absolute morality, simply because the concept is illogical. All morality MUST be relative to something/someone. Does it come from a god? Then it's relative to what that god considers good or bad. Morality requires a sentient being, and is therefore relative to that sentient being's wishes.

1 - The universe's existence is not proof of anything other than the universe's existence. See Nodak's post. In addition, consider this - Where did the god(s) come from? The argument that "something can't come from nothing" would require an infinite sequence of deities. Also, time and space "started" with the universe. Both are requirements for interaction and existence. For something to have created the universe, it would have to be "outside" of time and space, which is impossible.
2 - The universe is fine tuned in the same way that if you shuffle seventeen decks of cards and draw one card, the deck was fine tuned in order to make you draw that card. There are laws of physics involved in what we perceive as "fine tuning". Also, if the universe really is "fine tuned", its purpose is to extinguish all life in it. Most of the universe is empty space, and the rest is either deadly to all known life forms or will become deadly in a "few" million years.
3 - I don't even know what this means. If you mean that there are things in the universe we can't understand, then all we can say is that we can't understand them. To claim that a god did it IS understanding them.[1]
4 - There are no moral absolutes. History proves this.

If you want, I can probably punch more holes in each of those points.
 1. Assuming, of course, that the claim is correct.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline JeR

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 10:01:05 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  I think I've been going down the right track.  The usual requests for evidence ends in ad hom attacks....I guess reason is not a theists forte....

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline One Above All

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 10:02:51 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  I think I've been going down the right track.  The usual requests for evidence ends in ad hom attacks....I guess reason is not a theists forte....

"Reason doesn't usually work on religious people. Otherwise there would be no religious people." - House
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline inveni0

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 10:27:45 AM »
1. The universe exists
2. The fine tuning of the universe
3. The rational intelligibility of the universe
4. The existence of moral absolutes

You can't put the nail in the coffin with this kind of thing.  You need to understand that first and foremost.  But here are a couple of ideas for you:

1)  Yes.  The universe does exist.  But this is like saying 2 + 5 = 7 because 2 exists, where 7 is the universe.  We can't argue for what came "before" the universe because it's out of context.  Space and Time didn't exist before the universe existed, and that single item (space-time) is on what we base our entire model of theory.  Stephen Hawking's "Model Dependent Realism", explained in his book, The Grand Design, does a great job of this.

2)  The universe is not fine-tuned.  This is an illusion...a result.  If you apply a set of rules to something, it will naturally develop its own form of order.  The Game of Life is a great depiction of this.  Using a simple set of rules, you can turn pixels on the screen into what appear to not only be ordered clumps of "cells", but actually living "creatures".  And that's what happened with the Big Bang.  Matter and anti-matter SHOULD have annihilated each other, but a little matter (a lot of matter, actually...the universe we see and touch) escaped.  Matter has a set of rules assigned to it.  But these rules aren't arbitrary.  They're properties.  And the properties of matter formed the universe.  It seems ordered only because it follows a set of rules.

3)  If the universe was intelligible, we wouldn't have these discussions in the first place.

4)  There are absolutely no moral absolutes.  Why?  Well, we define morality only by defining immorality.  The post on my website talks about this.  But the truth is as follows: moral is that which is not immoral.  The authors of the Bible know this.  They put it in the story of Genesis.  How did Adam and Eve know what was moral?  They were told what was immoral.  And by that definition (the very same definition given by the Bible), we can allow Christians to give us an action that is "absolutely immoral".  And because we are knowledgeable, we can instantly name a place on the planet in which that action is not only NOT considered immoral, but it is considered inherently moral, appeasing to the gods (or God), and has allowed the culture to survive for thousands of years.
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Offline JeR

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 10:58:08 AM »
"Can you give an example of a moral absolue?"

One gave the following as moral absolutes:

Pedophilia
Murder
Rape

I pointed out how Mary was probably - 13- 15 when god knocked her up, and that murder and rape are ordered by god in the bible.  None of these would be acceptable now.  They do not respond to this, and keep beating the drum of atheists having no moral absolutes since we do not believe in god, and therfore no morality. 

inveni0 is right - there's no nailing their coffins.  Debating them is like trying to get a firm grasp on jello.
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 11:26:10 AM »
The idea that the world was created with conditions just right for us is akin to a puddle being amazed that it fits perfectly into the hole its in.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline JeR

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 11:30:36 AM »
"The idea that the world was created with conditions just right for us is akin to a puddle being amazed that it fits perfectly into the hole its in."

Ha - I used that one.  From Atheist Universe right?  They could not understand they had it backwards.
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 11:34:19 AM »
I love the simplicity of it.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2012, 11:59:48 AM »
Atheist Universe, by David Mills.  I was thinking I had heard it in a Dawkins lecture.  But I do have that book, so I just grabbed it off the shelf and noticed the blurb "An Admirable Book" - Richard Dawkins, in the corner.  I now have no idea where I heard it first.   ;) 
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline JeR

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2012, 12:06:59 PM »
"I love the simplicity of it. "

Yes, one of my favorites.  Although, it's funny when you run into the pseudo-intellectual theist who will blast you for being a simpleton when using such a straight forward example....
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
                     -Jefferson

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: a little help here
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2012, 12:08:55 PM »
Ya, at which point, my only remaining option is paper and a box of Crayolas.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin