Author Topic: Geneology of Jesus  (Read 3084 times)

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Offline Ice Monkey

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Geneology of Jesus
« on: April 03, 2012, 07:10:37 PM »
I'm sure this has been pointed out here before.  The geneologies provided by Matthew and Luke don't line up.  Both trace Jesus's ancestors through Joseph.  My real question is, why would they trace someone's geneology through a non-blood relative in the first place?  The link is broken from the start, no matter how badly you feel that Jesus just has to be a descendant of David's.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 08:59:29 PM »
Stop that.  Ignore the man behind the curtain.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2012, 01:58:49 AM »
Stop that.  Ignore the man behind the curtain.

Stop gap.  Ignore the manque[1] behind the curtain.
 1. having failed to live up to expectations
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Offline changeling

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2012, 05:15:37 AM »
God screwed the mother of Jesus, maybe God screwed David's mother too.
Then they would be related.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2012, 05:29:06 AM »
I think an equally important question is "What problems does the genealogy of Jesus traced back to Adam pose for Christians that argue for a metaphorical Genesis?"

Edit: I'm also feeling like a grammar wizard today. It's genealogy rather than geneology.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 05:52:11 AM by Zankuu »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 08:59:20 AM »
nice point, Zankuu. I think it's simplecaveman who is trying this metaphor approach out in the one thread.
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Offline changeling

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 12:39:47 PM »
Or how did he bypass original sin since one of his parents was one of those
sneaky women that caused the fall of mankind to begin with?
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 12:46:13 PM »
Or how did he bypass original sin since one of his parents was one of those
sneaky women that caused the fall of mankind to begin with?

Supposedly Mary was born pure. As to how that actually works.......goddidit.

The real question is, if Mary could have been born pure, why go through the whole Jesus thing. Just skip the middleman and have everybody born pure and free of sin, not just the one chick you plan to bone and knock up.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 01:12:47 PM »
God could have had Jesus delivered to Mary by a stork.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2012, 01:15:32 PM »
I'm thinking that the writers of the gospels were just really progressive guys.  As an adoptive mom, I include my daughter as part of my family tree, while at the same time recognizing her genetic ancestry.  That is really the norm in many adoptive families these days.   

Once again, the writers of the gospels prove that they were ahead of their time. 

I had no idea that Mary was born "pure."  Does that mean she was the result of a virgin birth as well? 

Offline Alzael

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 01:23:51 PM »


I had no idea that Mary was born "pure."  Does that mean she was the result of a virgin birth as well?

No, Mary was born to Saint Joachim and Saint Anne. However she was somehow prevented from inheriting the stain of original sin at her conception.
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 02:29:23 PM »
No, Mary was born to Saint Joachim and Saint Anne. However she was somehow prevented from inheriting the stain of original sin at her conception.

I just thought of something.

If the wage of sin is death ( see here), and Mary does not suffer from "original sin", then shouldn't she be alive today?

Otherwise, what does it mean not to inherent original sin?
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Offline ungod

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2012, 02:45:38 PM »

I just thought of something.

If the wage of sin is death ( see here), and Mary does not suffer from "original sin", then shouldn't she be alive today?

Otherwise, what does it mean not to inherent original sin?

Damn! There's always some wise guy has to come along and point out the flaws in the myth!
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Offline Nick

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2012, 03:38:19 PM »
I think that is why Catholics say she was part of the "assumption of Mary"  Taken body and soul to heaven.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2012, 03:40:36 PM »
I think that is why Catholics say she was part of the "assumption of Mary"  Taken body and soul to heaven.

Interesting!  That is what Muslims say happened to Jesus.  According to them he wasn't crucified or anything, but at a certain point he just ascended into heaven. 

Must be a family trait. 

Offline Nick

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2012, 03:46:40 PM »
Beam me up Scotty. ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2012, 04:02:09 PM »
Beam me up Scotty. ;)
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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2012, 12:47:18 PM »
I read somewhere that the line in Matthew traces Joseph & the one in Luke traces Mary.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2012, 01:12:46 PM »
I read somewhere that the line in Matthew traces Joseph & the one in Luke traces Mary.

That has a couple of problems. 

First, it is nonsense.  Mary is not mentioned in Luke, but Joseph is.  Some apologists will argue that they would not have recorded her name because women were not considered important.  That might be true, but as far as I know, there was no taboo on writing a woman's name for a case as special as this.  But it is probably true that no one would have bothered to keep a woman's lineage because they didn't matter anyway. So that begs the question, how would anyone have known hers?  And why would they have used her husband's name instead?

Second, the lineage in Matt has 12 fewer generations between Joe and Abraham than the one in Luke.  So if it were true that they were separate lineages of Joe and Mary, then Joe would have been a contemporary of Mary's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. And we were talking first century, not the ancient times when people allegedly lived for 900 years.

These are two separate, fictional lineages written by two separate jesus cults.  The only reason it mattered was because the messiah was supposed to be a descendent of David.  And the only reason that mattered was because the messiah was supposed to be king of the kingdom of Israel/ Judah.  They were trying to shoehorn their cult leader into a role that was specified by prophecy.  They did it poorly, but enough people were/ are stupid enough to buy it.



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Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2012, 02:19:34 PM »
I read somewhere that the line in Matthew traces Joseph & the one in Luke traces Mary.

That has a couple of problems. 

First, it is nonsense.  Mary is not mentioned in Luke, but Joseph is.  Some apologists will argue that they would not have recorded her name because women were not considered important.  That might be true, but as far as I know, there was no taboo on writing a woman's name for a case as special as this.  But it is probably true that no one would have bothered to keep a woman's lineage because they didn't matter anyway. So that begs the question, how would anyone have known hers?  And why would they have used her husband's name instead?

Second, the lineage in Matt has 12 fewer generations between Joe and Abraham than the one in Luke.  So if it were true that they were separate lineages of Joe and Mary, then Joe would have been a contemporary of Mary's great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather. And we were talking first century, not the ancient times when people allegedly lived for 900 years.

These are two separate, fictional lineages written by two separate jesus cults.  The only reason it mattered was because the messiah was supposed to be a descendent of David.  And the only reason that mattered was because the messiah was supposed to be king of the kingdom of Israel/ Judah.  They were trying to shoehorn their cult leader into a role that was specified by prophecy.  They did it poorly, but enough people were/ are stupid enough to buy it.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2012, 02:38:23 PM »
oops - left off my reply :-X

I had posed the question how is really descended from David when all the lineages are for his step-father Joesph, not his biological mother Mary.  Someone gave me the answer that the lineage in Luke is actually for Mary.  That Joseph is listed as "son of whoever Mary's father is" because he married Mary and women didn't mean squat.  I'm not saying I accept this as 100% truth, this is just the explaination I was given.  I don't accept anything 100% unless it fits into my particular puzzle which rarely happens.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline EV

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2012, 05:34:21 PM »
Joseph (Jesus's supposed father) has two different fathers listed in Matthew 1:16 and Luke 3:23.
Quote from: Luke 3:23
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli

Quote from: Matthew 1:16
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Possibly my favourite of the Biblical inconsistencies, or as I like to call them, 'Conflicting Literal Words of a Perfect God.'

Ya know, I'm just sayin'...
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 05:40:25 PM by EV »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2012, 06:22:44 PM »
Joseph (Jesus's supposed father) has two different fathers listed in Matthew 1:16 and Luke 3:23.
Quote from: Luke 3:23
23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli

Quote from: Matthew 1:16
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Possibly my favourite of the Biblical inconsistencies, or as I like to call them, 'Conflicting Literal Words of a Perfect God.'

Ya know, I'm just sayin'...


Tsk tsk EV.  Who is to say that Joseph didn't have two dads?  My daughter has several friends who have two dads. 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that this is clear evidence that the adoptive father to Jesus was raised in a two-dad family.  The Bible is flawless.  So how can this be disputed?   

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »
The man had two names Heli Joseph Goldstein (or something like that). Case closed. You are all heretics.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2012, 08:18:11 AM »
I had posed the question how is really descended from David when all the lineages are for his step-father Joesph, not his biological mother Mary.  Someone gave me the answer that the lineage in Luke is actually for Mary. 

Well, "someone" was flat out wrong and not using his or her noggin.

I don't accept anything 100% unless it fits into my particular puzzle which rarely happens.

That is a bad way to judge what is true.  You should consider breaking that habit.  Sometimes we need to consider the possibility that the puzzle is wrong.  Some instruction for that:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23176.msg517094.html#msg517094



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Offline EV

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2012, 03:13:18 PM »
Tsk tsk EV.  Who is to say that Joseph didn't have two dads?  My daughter has several friends who have two dads. 

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that this is clear evidence that the adoptive father to Jesus was raised in a two-dad family.  The Bible is flawless.  So how can this be disputed?

I've always seen this argued because homosexuality is a sin, the Bible says that a family is man plus woman, and so two dads is a violation of that. I have nothing wrong with having two dads or two mums, indeed I do know a few people with these combinations (especially as I live in Brighton, UK where that kinda thing is much more common...!)

Maybe Joseph had two dads and a mum, ya know, some kinda weird-in-4 BCE trinity that would be worthy of an awful sitcom. Like two-and-a-half men but even less funny. You could call it 'Two Granddads and a Messiah.' or something slightly more witty than my awful attempt at naming.

Alternately he probably did just have two different names... Good point Graybeard.
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Offline changeling

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2012, 05:53:45 PM »
Maybe Jesus had two dads because Mary had two husbands.
And she was still a virgin. That is why husband number one left her.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2012, 11:11:12 PM »
Maybe Jesus had two dads because Mary had two husbands.
And she was still a virgin. That is why husband number one left her.
was the first husband Josephs older relative,who upon death gave the wife to Joseph,otherwise divorce is a BAD thing,therefore Mary could not be pure because she did not submit to the will of her first husband
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Offline EV

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Re: Geneology of Jesus
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2012, 06:03:43 AM »
Maybe Jesus had two dads because Mary had two husbands.
And she was still a virgin. That is why husband number one left her.

Haha, only problem there is that it was Joseph, and not Jesus, that had two fathers. I guess you could count God as one, and Joseph as the other if you wanted to be REALLY nitpicky.

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