Author Topic: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question  (Read 430 times)

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Offline HAL

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Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« on: April 03, 2012, 10:36:20 AM »
Supposedly, so the theory goes, the "rich" create jobs. If the "rich", whoever they are, whatever that means, have their taxes reduced, they will create more jobs.

What I've never heard a news person or congress person bring up is this point -

What makes anyone think, even if it's true, that the jobs that the rich create will be jobs in America?

Does anyone think I have a good point?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2012, 10:41:53 AM »
I think it's an assumption on the part of the media and Congress that if we just reduce taxes for them, they'll make jobs here.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2012, 11:08:19 AM »
Supposedly, so the theory goes, the "rich" create jobs. If the "rich", whoever they are, whatever that means, have their taxes reduced, they will create more jobs.

What I've never heard a news person or congress person bring up is this point -

What makes anyone think, even if it's true, that the jobs that the rich create will be jobs in America?

Does anyone think I have a good point?

yes.  Because the evidence shows that corporations and the "rich" create jobs where it is most advantageous for them to do so, in order to make more profits.  This would mean that it is better to create jobs in areas where the wage is the lowest possible for them, the lowest taxes (we see all the states cutting each others throats to have the lowest taxes to lure industry), the access to resources is the cheapest and where they will not have regulations to obey that cost them money.   

All of this supports the hypothesis that it will be better for the rich/corporations to send jobs overseas in a majority of cases. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2012, 11:52:18 AM »
Does anyone think I have a good point?

yes.  I think another valid question is, the rich are richer than they have ever been, so where the fuck are the jobs?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2012, 12:10:21 PM »
They pay little to no taxes now.  This line of thinking is just nuts.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 12:13:36 PM »
Trickle-down economics: something Reagan and Bush Sr learned doesn't work, and something Bush Jr never learned about.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 12:15:34 PM »
yes.  I think another valid question is, the rich are richer than they have ever been, so where the fuck are the jobs?

First point: We have rich people now. It's not that we need to reduce taxes to create rich people - we already have them. Yea, you could make them "richer", but what's the effective difference between "rich" and "richer" in terms of job creation? Both terms mean you have a lot of money. If creating jobs to make themselves more money was the ticket, trust me, they would do that right now. And at the cheapest cost - meaning probably overseas.

Second point: If the rich got richer by lowering taxes, why would they create any jobs anywhere? Why wouldn't they simply invest it and kick back with a martini? Why wouldn't they just buy an island or another yacht? Why wouldn't they just give it away to charity or their kids? Where did this idea come from that any jobs would be created?

I may have missed it, but why haven't I heard this type of analysis by the talking heads? Inquiring minds want to know.

Offline Dante

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 12:18:04 PM »
yes.  I think another valid question is, the rich are richer than they have ever been, so where the fuck are the jobs?

China mostly.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 12:29:09 PM »
I may have missed it, but why haven't I heard this type of analysis by the talking heads? Inquiring minds want to know.

IMO, it's becasue the media/entertainment giants dont' think that people want to hear or can understand.  They want a simple answer: "rich people make jobs" <grunt> 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 12:31:26 PM »
This is just a wording variation of supply side economics. The idea of supply side economics if there is a greater potential to produce goods, more goods will be produced. And it is wrong, dead wrong. One only need to look at the vast crumbling factories of Detroit to undestand how wrong it is.

It ignores demand.

Furthermore, what Republicans can't seem to get through there thick skulls that supply side economics was the core philosophy of the Soviet Economy. It ignored demand while those that controlled the means of production(top party officials) decided what to supply. They did have all the power, and all the assets, and it eventually collapsed.

As opposed to lets use one of the major economic boom times; 1950s USA. There was an upswing in wages(from unionization and labor shortages during WWII) the infrastructure was great(Thank you again Mr. Roosevelt), education was actually pretty good, and taxes were....high! Every business new they had loads of possible consumers to buy their goods and did everything they could to supply them, even if it meant debt, and this maintained that high demand and price for labor.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 01:10:02 PM by Hatter23 »
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Offline atheola

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 12:36:49 PM »
They have utterly failed to explain that almost zero jobs are created by "the rich". They're created by the working classes who then BECOME rich through sweat and toil.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 12:51:48 PM »
Furthermore, what Republican can't seem to get through there thick skulls that supply side economics was the core philosophy of the Soviet Economy. It ignored demand while those that controlled the means of production(top party officials) decided what to supply. They did have all the power, and all the assets, and it eventually collapsed.

this strikes me as very similar to what Rep. Ryan tried to claim about the military budget

Quote
"We don't think the generals are giving us their true advice," Ryan said during a forum on the budget sponsored by the National Journal. "We don't think the generals believe their budget is really the right budget." [...]

He went on to say that while there were certainly inefficiencies that could be reduced in the Pentagon's budget, fighting wars in the Middle East and a "dangerous world" necessitated keeping defense spending level.
http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/30/10938733-paul-ryans-unbridled-chutzpah-on-defense-spending

they think everything depends on what they want people to want. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 01:08:14 PM »
Why wouldn't they simply invest it ... Where did this idea come from that any jobs would be created?

I may have missed it, but why haven't I heard this type of analysis by the talking heads? Inquiring minds want to know.

The right wing PR machine is saying that by investing they create jobs.  Investment = more jobs.  But it doesn't.  But this is how the little people understand things.  You have to make very simple bumpersticker sound bites to explain things.  And it works.  Because people are stupid and lazy. When the dems try to explain how it really works, people tune out. 

The talking heads work for the right wing rich guys and pander to the lazy, stupid little people, so no analysis will be forthcoming.


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Offline atheola

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 01:29:43 PM »
I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never had a really really rich guy roll up to me in his bullet proofed, noise proofed ultra luxury limo and offer me a job.. Maybe it's the corners I hung out on, but my son and I several years back had an old beat up pickup truck and a working class off duty cop did do just that and we worked for two years with him and were able to not only upgrade our truck, but (and here's the stupid part) were able to stay good and drunk every night on high buck booze.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 01:48:05 PM »
my dad was a small business man.  He owned a garage and tire shop and was able to hire a local young man to do things as my dad got older. We sure weren't "rich" in any shape or form but we did create a job.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »
Now a word from my business degree.  First, here is what conservative commentators have said the business of business:

    1) You have a lot of money.
    2) You decide you want to invest it to make a profit.
    3) You invent a product.
    4) You hire a lot of people and give them jobs.
    5) You sell it.

In the accounting classes it was explained to me very simply in examples.

  1) You have an idea for a product.
  2) You figure out how to make it.
  3) You figure out how many you can sell.  If few will or can buy it, don't waste money. Quit.
  4) You find financing.
  5) You make and sell it.

Note that consumer demand (aka, demand side economics) precedes the financing and hiring.


Also note a theme in conservatism.  Jobs are given.  They are gifts.  You should show gratitude.  Conversely there is no debt of gratitude to the workers.  For instance, a lot of workers built John Galt's paradise for him.  They were all tossed to the side.

Offline atheola

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 02:56:57 PM »
Conservatives don't want ANYONE learning basic economics except their own kids in schools that preach trickle down or as I like to call it tricky down..
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Offline Nick

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 02:59:16 PM »
Crums from the table economics.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 03:10:58 PM »
"I've never gotten a job from a poor man." Jobs come from demand for goods and services, and poor people spend money on those, too.

There is no such thing as "creating" a job. You can have rich people pour money into industries all you want and produce tons of stuff, but if consumers have no money to spend, you will sell no product. If you are not selling anything, you will not hire anyone.

Business owners will tell you that the decision to hire people is based on sales, not tax rates. How come the right wing never listens to real business owners, or academics who actually study this stuff? Instead, they "interview" paid shills, pundits and politicians who just make up crap that sounds nice and talk out their a$$es.
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 03:26:26 PM »
 

We have been indoctrinated with a whole mythology surrounding wealth.  We are not even outraged by the kind of income disparity that means that huge percentages of humanity suffer from hunger and don’t have access to clean water, while a fraction of humanity enjoys private jets. 

I remember when “trickle down” was the big thing, and helping the rich get rich and stay rich was our patriotic duty.  Bush said flat out that consumption was in fact our patriotic duty, and after the attacks on the WTC, the best thing we could do was to go out and consume.   

We have been taught that it is in our best interests to take care of our corporations. 

But perhaps the most insidious myth is the carrot hanging in front of us enticing each of us to believe that in a capitalist system, “I” could become the super rich.  It could happen to “me.”  And so working class people who can’t afford to replace their 10 year old cars carry signs at Tea Party events protesting the taxation of multi-million dollar inheritances. 

It is insane. 

People in the US need work, and people overseas need work.  The reason that corporations are increasingly seeking out third world labor is because it is cheaper. They pay the human beings less for the same amount of work.  They don’t have to provide the sorts of workplace safety conditions that we do in the US (and Canada and most of Europe).  And they don’t have the same sort of accountability when things go wrong.  They can just pack up and leave. 

In the video below, we see how Union Carbide/Dow chemical left a legacy of devastation in India after a disaster at one of their plants killed thousands and injured hundreds of thousands of human beings.  While the corporation felt that 2 billion dollars compensation was appropriate for 14 asbestos victims in the US.  Victims in India got between $500-$1000 per victim. 

Where would you rather set up shop if profit were your primary concern? 

If you don’t know the Yes Men, find some time in your busy lives to watch this video.  They expose the realities of corporate interests. 



Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 04:28:42 PM »
Also, things like "too big to fail".  As far as I'm concerned, if a corporation can't manage itself well enough to survive without help, then it deserves to collapse so that other people can move in and maybe do the job right, or at least not make the same mistakes.

Enron, perhaps, would have qualified as "too big to fail" under the common definition, if it hadn't been caught out doing illegal crap with its bookkeeping.  Yet, somehow, they still managed to get power to the areas covered by Enron.  Imagine that.

If a corporation can't hack it, then let them collapse.  If they move overseas to skip out on their taxes, then confiscate their American holdings, and extradite the whole lot of them for tax evasion.

Offline HAL

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 04:46:56 PM »
Well, if taxes on the rich are reduced, they are automatically richer without having to lift a finger, or go to the bother of creating jobs in China. I would just ask my tax lawyer to invest it all in an offshore bank account or whatever they do and go watch my polo team practice.

I don't know how many dumb people are out there, but if there are that many that swallow the conservative line, let's just say I'd rather not know the number.

Offline Tero

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2012, 05:40:12 PM »
If you cut rich people taxes, they will just stash away the money.

But I'm sure a few yacht manufacturing companies will be happy. 50 jobs for cutting taxes for the top 1%.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2012, 08:24:39 PM »
Supposedly, so the theory goes, the "rich" create jobs. If the "rich", whoever they are, whatever that means, have their taxes reduced, they will create more jobs.

This is one of several bullshit lines that rich people really need to stop trying to peddle. The idea that the rich create jobs might be true if they inherited their wealth and you're and you're working personally for them, like a gardener or maid. However the thought that the average guy working in a factory has his job because it was created by a rich guy with a huge bankroll is ridiculous.

If you spend your days working in a sony factory, your paycheck doesn't come from the guy who owns the company. It comes from the millions of people that are buying the sony products which are produced by you in the factory. The owners and the managers and all of the other suits are basically middlemen between the suppliers and the demanders.

For all of those conservative pundits who talk about how only the rich create jobs, well they get most of their money from advertisers who made their money by selling goods to the poor people. It's the same if you work at a restaurant, or a hardware store, or anywhere else. You didn't get your money from a poor person, per se. But collectively they worked together to make it happen.

What is really so douchey about this though is the implied mentality that asking the rich to pitch in and help is somehow punishing them. That they're being asked to do more not because there's a lot of shit that needs to get done, but because we want to take them down to our level. They seem unwilling to understand that it has nothing to do with them at all.  It's just that there are people that need help and things that need doing and they have a lot more resources than most.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2012, 10:38:08 PM »


Shouldn't we have about 50x more jobs per region than the rest of the world then?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Job Creation by the "Rich" Question
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2012, 07:04:26 AM »
What are you trying to do???  Divide us? :o
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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