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Offline ParkingPlaces

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magicmiles

Before I respond to your recent post, I have a question. I went through your 23 pages of posts hoping to find the answer, but could not.

I cannot find that you have ever said whether or not you consider the Genesis story, or any other old testament writings to be literal. It sounds like you do based on your response to my post, but I don't want to jump to conclusions and write an irrelevant response.

So, do you? A very short response will probably be adequate.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline magicmiles

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magicmiles

Before I respond to your recent post, I have a question. I went through your 23 pages of posts hoping to find the answer, but could not.

I cannot find that you have ever said whether or not you consider the Genesis story, or any other old testament writings to be literal. It sounds like you do based on your response to my post, but I don't want to jump to conclusions and write an irrelevant response.

So, do you? A very short response will probably be adequate.

wow, you searched all my posts? You must be a masochist.

I do consider the creation story to be literal,and everything in the OT which is recorded as historical happening, battles etc. As in, yes I believe the Jonah story, the Soddom and Gomorrah story etc.

[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 07:27:20 PM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Well, I didn't want to be accused of not paying attention, so I looked.

Thank you for your reply. I'll work on a response. I have one but it's only in my head right now. Gotta learn to type.  ;D

Possibly tonight. More likely tomorrow.
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Offline JeffPT

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All of these events demonstrate the great themes of the bible, that God is great and cannot tolerate sin but is also merciful and loves His creation.

Can you envision a single action that God could take that would counter your belief that God is great?  Or are you so brainwashed to think that everything God does is good, that even things like.... oh, I don't know... killing every living thing on the planet, is still evidence that God is great? 

Of course, it's the not being able to tolerate sin which gets folk hot under the collar, because they refuse to concede that they might possibly need to account to somebody like God.

Do you really think that is why some people don't believe in God?  Because they don't want to be accountable? 

Sort of PP. There are of course many variables in everybodies exposure to the bible and to the world generally. My brother takes great pleasure in pointing out to me that if I had been born in China chances are i wouldn't be a Christian. And he may well be right....but I don't see how it changes the way i look at things now. I believe God is real, and the fact that others apparently don't has never been compelling to me, although it does sadden me.

That's a very egocentric view of things, magicmiles.  "I believe in my God and it's sad that you don't."  Why does it sadden you?  Are you sad because you like to believe in God and think we are missing out on something?  Or are you sad because you think we will be punished for it?  Either way, don't be.  NOT believing in God is better than believing, and the fact that you think we are deserving of some sort of punishment because we don't believe in the same fairy tale as you is flat out insulting. 

This is exactly the problem with you though, and also an injunction on the entire Christian world view...  There are probably thousands of facts that aren't very compelling to you.  Yet facts are the things by which we usually base our judgment on truth versus untruth, aren't they?  I think that alone is the major difference between the atheist and the theist.  An atheist will look at the fact that there are literally billions of people who believe in thousands of different religions, all professing the same level of confidence in their beliefs, and find that compelling.  That's the sad part.  You live with your eyes closed to the relevancy of facts. 


In that sense, nobody should ever try to 'sell' you Christianity the way they might sell you an investment scheme where you'll see the rewards in this lifetime. ( I know, and it angers me, that many have warped the messgae of God to just such a worthless and fake idea ). Just one more reason to doubt God right, His created beings can be wankers?

This seems like just another fact that you don't find compelling.  The fact that Christians and non-Christians alike suffer equally should tell you something.  You would think that a believer in the one true God would have some sort of benefit, wouldn't you?  Especially over the people who flat out deny His existence without a shred of fear?  The bible says God is a vengeful God.  So where is it?  It's not there.  That should be compelling. 

It has, you know the gospel message, although I encourage you to read all the NT as well. You choose to not beleive it, for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't make the message ineffective.  It makes you free to make decisiosn and accountable for them.

Short list of facts about the NT that you probably don't find compelling...
1.  People don't rise from the dead after 3 days.
2.  People lie sometimes when they write stuff down.
3.  We don't know who actually wrote the gospel accounts.
4.  There is no contemporary evidence that Jesus existed at all.
5.  The 4 (Mat, Mark, Luke, John) stories are very different in the way they portray Jesus.
6.  There is no evidence for any of the miracles Jesus supposedly performed.
7.  We have no original writings of any of the gospel stories.
8.  Dreams and visions are usually considered poor ways of determining the truth about the universe (unless it's in a movie).

You can't point to any universal moral to judge God against. You can look at the things God has done and judge them as evil, or you can try thinking more carefully about why He has done them and what that means on a personal level. And then reflect on the message of the cross.

We have our own morality to judge by, and that's all we have.  And the fact is, you use your own morality to say that God is good when good things happen, yet when bad things happen, you toss up your hands and say that we can't judge those things as evil, because we don't have anything to judge him by.  In both cases its the same moral system... yours... that you're going by.  Your problem is that you START with the notion that everything God does is good.  You don't look at facts and conclude things from them.  You've already concluded before anything has even happened.  When something great happens, like little Suzie gets that heart transplant that everyone's been praying for, you have no problem saying that this is evidence that God is good.  Yet when something comes up like cancer or AIDS or genocide, your first instinct is to perform some sort of mental gymnastics to spin it in some sort of positive light.  Why?  Ask yourself why you do that. 

If you use your own morality to conclude that God is good based on your judgement of action X as good, then you should be able to use that SAME morality to conclude that God is evil based on your judgment of action Y as evil.  And when you take the further and realize that both X and Y happen ALL THE TIME, you should find that compelling evidence that either God doesn't care at all, or that He isn't real.  The tricky part, however, is that you actually don't use your own morality to conclude that God is good.  You've been force fed that information and now it's ingrained inside your brain. 

29,000 children die every single day from starvation.  29,000 fucking children.   If you ask me to think about that on a personal level, you are asking me to judge that based upon how it makes me feel.  The more carefully I think on it, the less excuse God has, and the more I think that the God you believe in (the one that's always good) can not possibly exist.  It just can't.  Do you not see that the only way to find facts like that palatable is to FIRST believe that everything God does is good?  Can you not see that it is morally repellant to think of 29,000 senseless deaths as palatable?  How can you not see that as the logical conclusion?  I've also asked this in other threads, but I'm going to ask you here as well.  Should we see 29,000 childhood starvation deaths as a good thing because God allowed it to happen?  Should they be celebrated?  If everything God does is good (and we just need to 'think more' to see it), then why should we not celebrate all those deaths? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline ParkingPlaces

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magic
-Snip- A story that could have had a happier ending if he had just given the new kids on the planet a chance to mature and kept the frickin' snake out of the garden.

seems to me A and E had it pretty good...living in perfection and instructed to not eat from just one specific tree. It's not as though they were being asked to suck lemons 24/7 whilst surrounded by good things which were forbidden.
Do you not see that in your own behaviour? I know I do. Just want that little bit more.

Okay, now this is where it becomes very hard to have a conversation. Anything that your god does is okay by you, because you do not have a the temerity to question him. Hence when I question him, you let yourself off scott free by saying we can't do that because he's god. And that satisfies you. While driving me up the wall.

As an atheist, constantly perplexed by the beliefs of religion, attitudes like this are hard to swallow. But of course my perspective is very different than yours. I assume that there is no god, and hence questioning motives is actually a device to help me figure out why people would make up such a story. You, on the other hand, fully accepting the story as true, are in no position to question anything about your god. This makes conversation difficult.

This is not a problem with a solution. We can of course simply accept each other's POV and say the heck with it, but both of us are participating in a forum dedicated to just such topics. And when nothing gives on either side, the only course of action readily available is angry rhetoric, terse words and lots of all-caps yelling.

Well, I hope there are alternatives, but it isn't going to be easy. But I'll try.

I know you don't like questioning your god, but I cannot hear the Adam and Eve story without questioning the motives of your god. I of course don't think he exists in the first place, but if he does, WTF was he thinking?

He's omnipotent. He knows what will happen.
He creates two humans who have no life experience, no experience with the concept of right vs. wrong, two humans who are presumably naive about everything (Adam was probably spending most of his time trying to figure out why god insisted that he name all the animals so quickly. Eve was probably trying to figure out why she was only going to be mentioned four times in the story, and a bit jealous about getting second billing.) And in the midst of their confusion they were saddled with the task of making one decision. And they blew it.

So now here we are, supposedly 6-10,000 years later and you're a big time sinner. Not because you ate all the cookies and didn't share with your siblings, not because you sped on your motorcycle, not because you hit on some guy's wife, but because many thousands of years ago two neophytes broke the only rule on the planet, and condemned you and every other human on the planet to a life as a poor wretch. That has to sing "Amazing Grace" on a regular basis as a constant reminder of that flaw.

Does any christian ever put themselves in Adam and Eve's barefoot non-shoes and ask if they would have behaved differently? Since the bible doesn't say how long the two were galavanting around the garden before biting the big one, I've no way of knowing if it was three days or three years. I googled it, and the best guess I could find was "not very long".

Imagine yourself as Adam. At the end of the first week. You're trying to remember which critter was the platypus and trying to recall what it was you did that caused Eve to get all sweet and stuff a couple of nights ago because whatever that was that you two did together was great. You are nowhere near used to being a human, and are really really trying to figure out what is going on. Then god shows up and says "by the way, don't eat of that tree right over there…"

The only negatives you have experience with at that point is stubbing your toe and getting rebuffed by Eve because she had something called a "headache", whatever that was. But the word "don't" wasn't really in your vocabulary because there wasn't a need for it (not counting Eve). And yet you were tasked with the job of paying really really close attention to that thing that god said that didn't seem to apply to your reality all that well because well, you didn't know sh*t about anything yet. Except that somewhere out there in the bushes was a platypus and you still weren't sure which furry thing it was.

Then Eve, very conveniently a female, does the wrong dirty deed. Adam says to himself "Crap, why didn't I tell god a sheep was just fine as my helpmate instead of picking this chick?" But then, in hopes of getting laid a second time, he says what the heck and eats of the tree as well.

And for this you suffer.

And your god knew it would happen. He had to. He's god. And he didn't change a single detail, a single requirement, a single thing. He let it happen, then got mad. To be more accurate, he made it happen, then got mad.

And you're impressed. I just don't get it.

None of this affects me. I'm bad because Pandora let evil out of the box. What a stupid bitch. It's all her fault. But don't hang this original sin thing on me. It's a silly story.

Do you know why people are bad. Because for some silly reason, not every human being on earth will do exactly what you want them to do. That is the source of evil. And what is evil to you is different than what is evil to me because my expectations are different that yours. And while we both certainly agree that man who skilled 85 kids and adults at a summer camp in Norway last summer was evil, we may not agree on other things. I may not like people who drive 20 miles per hour over the speed limit and think them as evil. You might drive 20 miles an hour over the speed limit and think idiots who drive slow are evil. So in some cases, it is absolute. In other cases relative. But we humans create and endure evil because we are not all of one mind. Not because of some atypical, bellybuttonless pairing of proto-humans.

Your book has men in fish bellies, the feeding of many with small amounts of food... -Snip-.

All of these events demonstrate the great themes of the bible, that God is great and cannot tolerate sin but is also merciful and loves His creation. Of course, it's the not being able to tolerate sin which gets folk hot under the collar, because they refuse to concede that they might possibly need to account to somebody like God.

I am a little confused about something. You are not free to judge your god, yet you judge him to be loving. Or more properly, you judge his statement that he loves you to be accurate without requiring any corroborating information. And you call this an absolute. Or use it as an absolute. He is automatically incredible, and we're automatically sinners, and yet a twain shall meet, sometime, whenever he feels like it, and you're cool with that.

But just to be clear. I do not refuse to concede that I might possibly need to account to somebody like a god. There is nothing to concede too. I behave in generally acceptable ways because I like being a good human being and prefer being appreciated over being an a**hole. My atheism doesn't have a thing to do with rejecting or otherwise denying a god that I secretly or otherwise think actually exists.

Admittedly, if he does exist I think he's a dork on his good days and a full fledged expletive on his bad ones. But since I'm as sure as I'm allowed to be that he doesn't, it's not an issue. I'm not impressed with the minds that made him up and touted him as top dog though. What arrogant pricks.


Can you see why there are those of us who, seeing no direct evidence of a god and see direct parallels between the christian stories and the non-christian stories of a thousand civilizations might not give the tale the weight you do?

Sort of PP. There are of course many variables in everybodies exposure to the bible and to the world generally. My brother takes great pleasure in pointing out to me that if I had been born in China chances are i wouldn't be a Christian. And he may well be right....but I don't see how it changes the way i look at things now. I believe God is real, and the fact that others apparently don't has never been compelling to me, although it does sadden me.

It doesn't make sense to me in the sense that God states quite clearly in Romans that men are without excuse when it comes to their attitude to God. I do find that difficult to reconcile with those who flat out claim they have simply never once had even the slightest feeling that God is the real deal.
Mind you, that sort of 'never even had an inkling' type of atheist seems to be pretty rare. On these boards you seem to be one of the few who might fit in that category.

As per romans, men are without excuse when it comes to their attitude towards god.

I don't have an attitude towards god because he doesn't exist. I do have an attitude towards christians who believe he does. It is not necessarily unfriendly or mean, but lets just say I'm not impressed. I dismiss your god just as easily as I dismiss the hindu god loki or the Pueblo god awonawilona. How you too can dismiss loki and awonawilona, and still see your own as real will confound me til the day I die. But no longer. I don't want you to worry about me after that.


 Can you understand that those of us who have experienced life sans god are not any worse off. Can you understand that in my half a century as an atheist I have suffered no major horrible events while many dozens of my christian friends and aquaintences have had to endure or died because of a huge assortment of tragedies. If there isn't at least some tiny hint of an advantage in being christian, where is the appeal?

Christianity differes from every other faith in that regard. It doesn't say that being a Christian in this lifetime gets you any special privilges, in fact it really says the opposite.
-Snip_ (trying to shorten this response a bit. I'm only responding to this one part.)

Obviously other christians have told me otherwise. You are at least being honest by not promising something that can't be delivered. That is appreciated. You will suffer just a little less though, because your response kept me from going off into soliloquy land on the subject. See, aren't you happier already?  ;D

I chalk the differences in peoples lives, the good and the tragic, to the luck of the draw, not the beliefs of the person whose children died or died a painful death of bone cancer. I am undoubtably due for my own death, and it might be quick or might be as bad or worse than any I have witnessed. But I've gone an awfully long time doing just fine for a sinner.

I don't want to belabour the point or be accused of a Pascal wager point of view, but the 62 odd years you have lived is kind of not much in the context of eternity.

If eternity were relevant to my life, you would be right. But it is a non-issue. The me that is typing this now isn't even that old. Virtually all of my cells are replaced every seven years, so the living being I am right now isn't the same one that would have typed messages to a different you seven years ago. And the memories in my mind are inaccurate all over the place, just like everyone else's. So the me that I value is mostly a figment of my temporary imagination, and even if this body appears to last longer than another seven years, this particular me won't be there to enjoy it.

Lets just say I'm not feeling particularly intelligently designed right about now.


Because what he has done up to this point is obviously pretty ineffective. Because it hasn't touched me.

It has, you know the gospel message, although I encourage you to read all the NT as well. You choose to not beleive it, for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't make the message ineffective.  It makes you free to make decisiosn and accountable for them.

I also know the message of some obscure Siberian group's origin story. I forget the details, because they were all in a college paper I wrote 40 years ago, but it involved seven worlds stack atop one another, and was really pretty cool. But it was no more real to me than your story. One that I cannot reconcile with reality in any way, shape or form.

the Greek god dionysus was born on December 25th of a virgin mother and was a great teacher and then was killed, and he rose from the dead. Over a thousand years before your jesus. Is your god so omnipotent that he forget to be original? Maybe he didn't notice the story of Eqypt's horus, who was born 3,000 years earlier to a mother named Meri, and who's stepfather was Jo-Seph. And his birth was heralded by a star.

This is called a pattern. A cultural meme that survived thousands of years. A common thread. A myth. A myth that is completely understandable given the source. A myth that should be just as easily dismissed as the stories of the Bushmen in Africa, who say we used to live underground with the lord of all life, kaang.

-Snip- For as flawed as we humans are as a group, as individuals there are very few amongst us who would actually drown the entire planet just because we f**ked up and did it wrong the first time. And you can't say that about your sky guy.
You can't point to any universal moral to judge God against. You can look at the things God has done and judge them as evil, or you can try thinking more carefully about why He has done them and what that means on a personal level. And then reflect on the message of the cross.

I don't need a universal moral standard. I just use my own. The one that not only would never harm another human, but that would like to help every person on the planet have a better life. Lacking the power to accomplish that, I have to settle for not causing more harm to come to others, and let it go at that. Were I a god, however...

The why's of what I would consider evil, as done by your god, are of no import to me. The events didn't happen. So what I'm judging is the humans that are able to accept the tales as true, and who hold them sacred. There is no evidence for a world-wide flood, but we have plenty of evidence that many think that it was a wonderful event, important to all of mankind. And it is that attitude, that veneration, that troubles me, not the mythical event itself. I don't get sad when I see someone die in a TV show or movie, because I know it's not real. If 40% of the world's population went into actual mourning every time it happened, I'd worry. And I worry about the effect of having so many people believe so many myths and acting as if each story is true.

The tooth fairy and Santa area cute stories that are, in time, revealed to be false. But everybody is okay with that because it's a little game we play with children. Religion isn't a game. At times it is deadly serious. And people tend not to outgrow it. It's never cute in the first place, and it serves no purpose other than to distort reality for every follower of every kind of religion.

Hence we disagree.
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Offline Ice Monkey

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I do consider the creation story to be literal,and everything in the OT which is recorded as historical happening, battles etc. As in, yes I believe the Jonah story, the Soddom and Gomorrah story etc.

Hey Magic.  Two quick questions, if I could.

1) did your acceptance of any of these stories pre-date your acceptance of God?
2) is your present position tentative?
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline magicmiles

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Could the human mind be any more odious ? Creating such a disgusting story to prove the point: don't mess with your/our god or his elect--shows how wicked of mind, and savage in action, and desperate to make their deity the most powerful and vicious, these authors really were.

" And then the children were frozen to the spot whilst being eaten alive by rats "

Wow, it took me 10 seconds to come up with something worse. If I was trying on a line of BS in order to convince people to scare people into believing God I think I'd go a bit further than a couple of she bears.
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Offline magicmiles

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[What does it say to you, when your humanity and sense of what is good and loving comes into such stark collision with what your god actually does?


I remind myself that my humanity and sense of what is good and loving comes only from one source: God. If I was an atheist I'd never know what was truly right or wrong, being restrained only by the societal trends prevalent in my society and in my lifetime.

No thanks.
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Offline magicmiles

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are you serious? surely not. i could invent a worse God doing worse things in no time. it's a strange story...that much is true.

Considering the time it was written, this is pretty shocking.

What do you mean by that? Have imaginations evolved significantly since OT times?
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Offline magicmiles

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Quote
I'm sure I have seen you argue that there is no moral right and wrong?

No, I have never said that.

My apologies, then.
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Offline magicmiles

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slowly working my way through overdue responses on this thread this afternoon, including the challenge I issued Kaziglu. Getting there...
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Offline Alzael

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I remind myself that my humanity and sense of what is good and loving comes only from one source: God. If I was an atheist I'd never know what was truly right or wrong, being restrained only by the societal trends prevalent in my society and in my lifetime.

No thanks.

You still don't know what right or wrong is. Without actual evidence of what your god is or says (which you don't have) all you're doing it making stuff up and calling it right and wrong. We went over that remember? It was one of those conversations that you ran away from before.

And if god is the only source of good and loving that you have to draw upon then those words mean nothing. Because you've defined good and loving solely in relation to god. So god is loving even if he's sodomizing six year old boys, by your worldview (which I guess might be considered loving in a catholic priest sort of way). This is not actual morality. You've just abdicated all of your morals to another being. You're not in any sense a moral person because your only measure of morality is what another being says is moral.

If you're happy essentially being gods bitch, then I guess that's up to. But at least don't be a hypocrite and try to pretend like you really know right from wrong. Or that you're any kind of a moral person at all.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline magicmiles

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Parking Places,

Do you want me to respond to your post number 87 on this thread, or are you happy for me to go directly to your most recent one? ( which I'll get to hopefully later today )
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Offline magicmiles

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Which of course proves our point....all gods are man made. Even yours.

It's good that you can recognize, and mock in your own way, the pernicious thinking and fallacious ideas of the ancients. Which is of course is a natural part of the evolution of religion.

I don't see how the fact that any 10 year old with a good imagination could have invented a scarier and more dramatic response from God than that depicted in the OP strengthens the case for this passge being fiction.

Can you explain further how it does?
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Offline magicmiles

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His followers are free to, and even commanded by God, to murder, rape and enslave their enemies.

Was it wrong for God to do that? Why?

If we need to explain that to you, obviously you are incapable of comprehending the meaning of morality.

Humour me. Please.

Why do you say it was wrong? Which moral law was broken, and what was the origin of that law?

( I'm asking Ungod )
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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magic

It appears to me that several people are in line ahead of me, because they have written long posts in this thread that you have not yet replied to yet. And then there is the Kaziglu challenge. My sense is that you should address some of those posts first. I even give you permission to ignore me completely in this thread for the time being. We can take this up later with ease.

I know that we're piling on, but you do tend to put out controversial prose that provokes response. And you are outnumbered. But I'm not the only one who has put an hour or two into arguing with what you have written. If you pick some to respond to and others to ignore, you are going to get on the bad side of a few too many people. So there might be wisdom in trying to clear this thread up and then later challenge someone to a one-on-one debate or something.

You have stuck around through thick and thin, made serious contributions, entertained us in the less pensive threads and generally managed not to turn into an a**hole. But this thread has garnered a lot of attention and if you get to blasé about it, methinks you will do some damage to your reputation. Something that I think you would rather avoid. If you read through the various responses to your posts here and feel overwhelmed, PM a few of the contributors and see if something can be worked out to make it humanly possible for you to do your part without ignoring those who have put just as much energy into this thread as you have.

If I had any moral basis for my existence, I'd try to give you some good advice too, but this is the best I can do.  ;D

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I know where I can find some cheese...

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline magicmiles

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point taken PP. I should be able to respond to all outstanding responses on here, as it stands currently. And I'll definitely have a crack at the ambitious challenge I set KB (although I'm already 'banned' from including verses where God is praised. Makes it harder for me)

Some posts on here are 'comments' more than direct challenges to me (in my opinion), and I won't respond to all those.

Having said all that, it will be necessary for me to pull out of this thread at some point, or it'll just keep going indefinitely.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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magic

Get this thread cleared up and then talk to one of the global moderators about you ban. See if something can be worked out. You certainly haven't gone all kymer on us or anything.

You might also think about starting a thread that lets you control the subject matter a bit better. Or give serious thought to a one-on-one debate about some of this stuff.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline magicmiles

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If I understand your point, you are asking on what authority I can judge god? 

On the authority that we gained moral judgment equal to yhwh's when Eve ate fruit from the Tree of Moral Knowledge.  It's bullshit, but it I'm playing on your field for the moment.

Having an understanding of good and evil does not give anyone discernement equal to God's. That was the cunning temptation used by Satan - the suggestion that they could be like God. It's a lie which is pretty easy to swallow still today as it was then.


I am taking the event at face value.  That is all I have to work with.  It is not put into any other context.  As far as I am concerned, there is no other context that would matter. 

Exactly true. No matter who God is, no matter how great, you will stick with what you consider to be true and believe you know better. You beleive in a lie peddled by Satan from the beginning.


And it is possible that if there is a moral to be learned, it is not the moral you have been told it is.  It is possible the moral is "yhwh is not benevolent" or "Elisha's power went to his head" or "Elisha did a horrible thing and realized he needed to act more responsibly with his curses thereafter".  I read one person's analysis that said Elisha had new powers he did not quite understand how to use and this was him not knowing his own strength.   

That's an interesting perspective. I'd not heard it before. I disagree with it, as I think the wider context in which this story is told suggests that it was most definitely the will of God to prevent His name being taunted by ther taunting of his prophets. As you all are very well aware, God has not shied away in the past from doing this sort of thing in response to His name being defamed.



But that is not what you are saying.  You have it completely ass backward.  You are saying "yeah, it sounds bad, but somehow it must have been good."  That is a complete abdication of using your judgment.   


I'm not saying 'somehow' it must have been good, I'm saying it was completely right for God to act as He did. I don't abdicate using my judgement, I'm humble enough to concede my judegement is often very much clouded.


But to answer your last question, that is what morality is. Good (capital G) and Evil (capital E) are words  used for the slow kids who need things simplified.  For humans as a species, society = survival.  We're like ants.  If ants did not live in highly regimented societies, there would be no more ants.

Are you saying, then, that we can judge what is good by whether or not we still exist? Provided a society functions and we continue to reproduce then how can it ever be evil?

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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magic

Get this thread cleared up and then talk to one of the global moderators about you ban. See if something can be worked out.


What ban?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Why does God who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and alll-knowing, and desperately wants everyone to kiss his ass, need us to knock on his door? Doesn't make sense. Do those desperately seeking recognition hide behind closed doors, and wait for the world to beat a path to their door? ROTFLMAO!

If you had a drug which would make somebody love you, would you use it? Or would you prefer they do so of their own volition?

And why do people continually ask why somebody all knowing doesn't do things differently?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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Nonetheless, I accept your challenge


Ok, let's give this a go. My 10 verses:

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:28  God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Genesis 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden

Genesis 9:1   Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth

Genesis 9:3  Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything

Genesis 12:2  I will make you into a great nation,   and I will bless you; I will make your name great,  and you will be a blessing

Genesis 13:15 and 16   All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted

Genesis 17: 6 and 7   I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you



« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 01:21:18 AM by magicmiles »
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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That's all I have time for today.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Add Homonym

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I remind myself that my humanity and sense of what is good and loving comes only from one source: God. If I was an atheist I'd never know what was truly right or wrong, being restrained only by the societal trends prevalent in my society and in my lifetime.

No thanks.

Why would you remind yourself of that, when you have good evidence that your sense of good and evil actually comes from humans? You can trace the evolution of moral philosophy through cultures. A lot of cultures seemed to have arrived at the "golden rule", with thousands of years of thinking, and irrespective of their respective religions. Not all did, though. Judaism was pretty much the last to figure it out, around 0AD. Possibly, they needed Buddhist/Eastern influences to come to this conclusion.

For Gnostic Christians, YAHWEH was so repugnant, that they equated him with Satan. How could a Christian sect be so confused about YAHWEH? Where is the golden rule in Judaism? Hiding, in its depths, in garbage. For 'Jews', this rule was brought to them by a new god of love and morality, called Jesus. Christianity structurally admits that love-type morality only started at 30AD, and that the old God was a mistake. Paul comes along, and basically scrubs YAHWEY off the map.

So, why should atheists tolerate the assertion that morality comes from God, when it comes from the apologists of religions that were the last to figure it out?

I'll put this another way, MM. The reason why morality is so difficult to implement and work out, and adhere to, and culturally flexible, is that it's purely a man-made construct, designed to thwart evolution. God is a Nietzschean. Morality is difficult, because we are using it against God. We don't want members of our society to die in the gutter, just because their genes were imperfect. We value what's inside a person's head as well as the crappy genes that god gave him. God wants you to die in the gutter, this is why people are so good at dying in the gutter.

I'll put this another way: if your assertion that morality comes from God is so sound, then why can I make an opposite argument that works better than yours?



Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline HAL

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If you had a drug which would make somebody love you, would you use it? Or would you prefer they do so of their own volition?

I prefer of their own volition, but I also wouldn't punish them if they didn't love me. Big difference between me and your god.

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If you had a drug which would make somebody love you, would you use it? Or would you prefer they do so of their own volition?

Destroy it. If someone doesn't love me, it's my fault. Either that or it's one of those shallow people who care more about appearance than personality.[1]
 1. And they like my personality but not my appearance, obviously.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 09:21:23 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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If you had a drug which would make somebody love you, would you use it? Or would you prefer they do so of their own volition?

And why do people continually ask why somebody all knowing doesn't do things differently?

You seem to have no problem ignoring its omniscience to fabricate analogies like the one just above your remark. 
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline kaziglu bey

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magicmiles:
I would like to begin by commending your for keeping to your word, as well as for replying to so many different people. I can appreciate the time and effort involved, even if I would disagree on the conclusions you reach. You have been a member for less time than me but have significantly more posts. Thanks for taking the time.

I also think that it is worthwhile to point out that you are not banned, I think that when  said  "although I'm already 'banned' from including verses where God is praised" that it may have been misinterpreted as a forum/mod based ban, rather than the rules of engagement for our little challenge. A simple misunderstanding.

Also, I would like to address the rules of engagement a bit further before we proceed. I am not going to try to add anything once we've started, since that would just be unfair. I simply wish to clarify why God receiving praise is not necessarily a good thing about God, in and of itself. It really would not be that difficult for an all powerful being, who is able to destroy people with a mere thought, and makes it clear that he will do precisely that if he is not praised, to receive praise. God is praised to prevent him from doing harm to whoever is giving him praise (at least in some situations, this is certainly the case). Therefore, I can not consider praise given out of fear and under threat of death to be indicative of God's Goodness. When God does this it is more like blackmail or extortion. It's not really a good thing. However, suppose God actually DOES something that would actually be considered good, and God is praised for that. As long as you actually include the premise to the praise, so that I can see that the praise is given for obviously Good reasons, then I don't mind if you include the praise. I think that you would agree that, for our purposes, a good deed worthy of praise is worth mentioning a lot more than the actual praise itself. Like, if God were to help some old lady cross the street, and was praised and thanked for doing so, just make sure to mention that the old lady praised God, BECAUSE he helped her to cross the street (those damn kids and their speeding Iron Chariots!). Remember, violence, the threat of or promise to do violence are not something we are going to consider Good. I hope you don't have a problem with this, as it may perhaps give you a little more stuff from the OT to work with. Basically, I need context for any praise.

Also, I need a little more clarification (sorry, I hope this doesn't bother you, but I find it helpful and time saving to address anything that seem ambiguous now, rather than making assumptions, mistakes and coming to the wrong conclusion, and having to backtrack to figure out what went wrong. I don't want to misrepresent your position, and you probably do not want to deal with any Strawmen from me). You'll forgive me if you have addressed this issue previously in another post, but I need to know, do you accept all of the books of the Bible as true? In other words, do you believe in the Genesis story (and all successive stories) and that they accurately represent the world and what was going on? This is very important to know, and quite salient to our discussion here. Additionally, if you could provide just a very brief explanation as to how the passages mentioned "show either God showing love, patience and kindness". This will just help me to understand your perspective a little more. I will be certain to include a similar explanation of my position, so that you also can be without doubt as to my reasons.

I hope that you do not have any objections to any of the above. If you do, let me know. I think that it will help both of us, as well as observers of the exchange, to understand one another, and avoid the need for more explanation and clarification in the future. I think it also makes a slight concession to you for including praise worthy acts that do in fact receive praise. That being said, you posted:
Ok, let's give this a go. My 10 verses:

Genesis 1:1  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:28  God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Genesis 2:16  And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden

Genesis 9:1   Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth

Genesis 9:3  Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything

Genesis 12:2  I will make you into a great nation,   and I will bless you; I will make your name great,  and you will be a blessing

Genesis 13:15 and 16   All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring[a] forever. 16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted

Genesis 17: 6 and 7   I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7 I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you
I will not bother addressing any potential objections or need for clarification on this first one, considering the above mentioned matters.
Ok. Here I go with another then:
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

God plans to (and does) kill every living thing. Note that God specifically mentions that HE CREATED THEM. God created so many living things, only to destroy them. A father who has children only to destroy them is definitely not a good thing.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline velkyn

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I do consider the creation story to be literal,and everything in the OT which is recorded as historical happening, battles etc. As in, yes I believe the Jonah story, the Soddom and Gomorrah story etc.
no evidence for any of these to be true. so you may as well claim you believe that AnasiWiki was real too.
Having an understanding of good and evil does not give anyone discernement equal to God's. That was the cunning temptation used by Satan - the suggestion that they could be like God. It's a lie which is pretty easy to swallow still today as it was then.
So the bible is a lie?
Quote
Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
  Good to know.
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