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Offline ParkingPlaces

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If God is real...then on what basis could one possibly ever claim that he did something wrong? On what higher authority and level of understanding would they be basing such a claim? As I have conceded, I too question what God has done...I don't see why other options weren't available. But I also know full well that I look at things with imperfect understanding.

I too am short of time and want to respond to several things you have said, but I have to respond to this.

If there is a god and his goal is confuse, torment, allow extremes in pain and suffering, and generally not give a self damn, I guess there isn't diddly we can do about it. We can join his cult, pray our asses off and cross our fingers, but nothing we humans do is going to provide any assurance regarding our future. Or our present. Our daddy who are in heaven is an a** and I guess that's just tough.

We keep being told by christians that we are all sinners. So now I have to ask this. Compared to what? Where is the perfection of semi-perfection that we can look up to? Now while I know that the actual sinning we did involves being outright dastardly centuries before our birth, which I will admit is, like, you know, almost unforgivable. But that same fruit theft of yore is held over us while we are simultaneously supposed to keep our hands off our neighbors wives and ignore the fact that everyone but us drives a Mercedes, and even not kill, where is the sample product that we are supposed to emulate as we prance through life pleasing your god? His kid? Look what being nice got him. Aerated. At least temporarily, and christians really, really stress all the suffering he did, so it's kind of hard to get excited about being just like him.

So here we are, subjects of a dude for whom the trite is important and we are not. A guy who's interest in us waned a couple of centuries ago and as replacements, he created a small patch of followers, sinners all, liars all, etc. etc. to lead us on into eternity. Some have tried their best, but whether it is folks never inculcated in the cult or others who have customized it beyond recognition, we not-yet-mauled humans area sort of stuck here in limbo, wondering. When it's our turn to get zapped. How well it will go. And again, it doesn't matter how often we pray nor how earnestly nor how eagerly we serve nor how good our intentions. Any one of us can get mauled by bears any second of our lives. There isn't a single guarantee.

The afterlife? Barely mentioned, never described well, re-imagined by every living christian to meet their own hopes and dreams, the only ones they have because down here it sucks? Sorry, he's gonna be pissed there too. My death isn't going to make a tyrant go all soft and start treating me like a sweet little kid. It'll just be an excuse to try mucking with my brain in some other way. Gods who do whatever the f**k they want aren't actually impressed by true believers. Why should they be? It's not in their genes. Because they don't have any.

This is all a human invention. It reeks of humanity. Or the lack of it, which is far more common. But nonetheless, no real god that uncaring could possibly produce humans that so much more humane than he is. Few examples of kindness would exist. And reason after reason to act barbarically to all but our own villagers would abound.

If you ever get the courage to question him, you'll figure out he's not there, and you can look at the world afresh. You can see the good as better than ever imagined, and most of the bad as a human construct that might be fended off by other humans. In the meantime, as you drift thorough life on the whim of a whim, you are sort of better off keeping it quiet. So those of us who know he doesn't exist don't have to be afraid of you too.

Any other responses I have to your posts, mm, are at least 12 hours away. Now I have to go do things.
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Offline gonegolfing

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[

Could the human mind be any more odious ? Creating such a disgusting story to prove the point: don't mess with your/our god or his elect--shows how wicked of mind, and savage in action, and desperate to make their deity the most powerful and vicious, these authors really were.

are you serious? surely not. i could invent a worse God doing worse things in no time. it's a strange story...that much is true. think if I was going for shock value I'd have added some more bears and more bodies

Congratulations then. Well done.

Which of course proves our point....all gods are man made. Even yours.

It's good that you can recognize, and mock in your own way, the pernicious thinking and fallacious ideas of the ancients. Which is of course is a natural part of the evolution of religion.

Ideas form and then reform, and some, such as the god idea, get beat up all along the way.

The faculty of reason is, and has always been, like a pesky little bully for the god idea, that just won't go away. And it's the only bully I have the greatest respect for.

Your lunch and shake are gone...now what ?
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Add Homonym

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are you serious? surely not. i could invent a worse God doing worse things in no time. it's a strange story...that much is true. think if I was going for shock value I'd have added some more bears and more bodies

ORLY?

Teh Buddhists have great descriptions of how long you will spend in each level of hell, being consumed by snot worms for 1050 years. They have put some imagination into it. The Christians just went for a bland "eternity". Simple, vulgar, but hard to beat.
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Offline ungod

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His followers are free to, and even commanded by God, to murder, rape and enslave their enemies.

Was it wrong for God to do that? Why?

If we need to explain that to you, obviously you are incapable of comprehending the meaning of morality.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline ungod

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Teh Buddhists have great descriptions of how long you will spend in each level of hell, being consumed by snot worms for 1050 years. They have put some imagination into it. The Christians just went for a bland "eternity". Simple, vulgar, but hard to beat.

The Christians love to claim that things must have a "purpose", yet when asked what possible purpose eternal life has, it's the usual chirping rickets.  &)
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
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Offline screwtape

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If God is real...then on what basis could one possibly ever claim that he did something wrong? On what higher authority and level of understanding would they be basing such a claim? As I have conceded, I too question what God has done...I don't see why other options weren't available. But I also know full well that I look at things with imperfect understanding.

If I understand your point, you are asking on what authority I can judge god? 

On the authority that we gained moral judgment equal to yhwh's when Eve ate fruit from the Tree of Moral Knowledge.  It's bullshit, but it I'm playing on your field for the moment.

As far as imperfect understanding, what more needs to be understood?  In the story yhwh sends two bears to maul 42 boys[1] because either they made fun of his prophet or indirectly made fun of yhwh.  It was a matter of ego either for Elisha or yhwh, which any moral person should understand does not warrant violence.  You know, sticks and stones.That's it.  I am taking the event at face value.  That is all I have to work with.  It is not put into any other context.  As far as I am concerned, there is no other context that would matter. 

And it is possible that if there is a moral to be learned, it is not the moral you have been told it is.  It is possible the moral is "yhwh is not benevolent" or "Elisha's power went to his head" or "Elisha did a horrible thing and realized he needed to act more responsibly with his curses thereafter".  I read one person's analysis that said Elisha had new powers he did not quite understand how to use and this was him not knowing his own strength.

But that is not what you are saying.  You have it completely ass backward.  You are saying "yeah, it sounds bad, but somehow it must have been good."  That is a complete abdication of using your judgment.   



Cuts both ways. You look at the world and see no God...but follow the law of the land ( I assume ). Does that make you moral, or just someone who does something he is compelled to? What's moral about doing good things only because it helps socirty better function?

I think that misses my point.  I am saying abdicating moral judgment is amoral.  That is kind of a tautology and should be obvious.  But there it is.  I am saying you have replaced moral judgment with a priori assumptions and slavish deference to something written by people who have been dead for 2500 years or more and cannot fully explain to you what they meant.  That makes you (xians) amoral.  It is an absurdly stupid policy and should scare the milk out of you.

But to answer your last question, that is what morality is. Good (capital G) and Evil (capital E) are words  used for the slow kids who need things simplified.  For humans as a species, society = survival.  We're like ants.  If ants did not live in highly regimented societies, there would be no more ants.

If you're concerned about the damage Christians do because they believe a non fiction book, we can start another tired old thread comparing the negative consequences of that to the negative consequences of living with no moral authority, just a need to ensure the world keeps on keeping on.

We could but it would be a pointless waste of time since you have proposed a strawman argument.

No lesson, if you don't believe God is real. If you believed Him real, then He is God...and it is just crazy to then try and say what He should be. Better to consider what He is...and you do that on the basis of belief, you then also need to look at the God of love and not just the God of anger.

Completely missed my point. 

You already say what he should be - good.  I am reevaluating based on his actions, not his reputation.

So long as you are aware you have come to that conclusion...and will be held accountable for it. If God is real, of course.

Stop, you're terrifying me.

 1. children?  young men?  punks?  Could be any of these.  The bible is not clear.
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Offline ungod

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OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.

You post one verifiable case of your God healing a child of leukemia or AIDS, and I'll post 10,000 cases of your God killing innocent children, or standing by and doing nothing while children are murdered,, raped, and enslaved.

.
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline HAL

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Hey Elisha -

Matthew 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Offline ungod

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jesus said "Knock and the door shall be opened unto you". I wonder if some people knock only to check if someone is home, as opposed to knocking because they want to come in.


Why does God who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and alll-knowing, and desperately wants everyone to kiss his ass, need us to knock on his door? Doesn't make sense. Do those desperately seeking recognition hide behind closed doors, and wait for the world to beat a path to their door? ROTFLMAO!

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline screwtape

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OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.

Praise doesn't count. Of course they praise him.  For one, it is the story of yhwh's favored people.  He does some nice things for them, but not anyone else.  For two, they're scared shitless.  If they don't, he'll lay waste to their family & tribe.  Remember, lots of people praised Hitler, Stalin and a lot still praise Mao.

kaz should take you up on this, but only if you bet your testicles on it.   
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Offline ungod

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You have read the whole bible but can't see any of the ways God has demonstrated his power than in killing people? That's hard to believe. If you're arguing against God as someone who exists, you need to consider the fact that He spoke a world into being. You try it.

If you Google "Magic Carpet", you'll find that some Arabs were able to sit on a piece of carpet and utter a magic phrase which allowed them to fly anywhere. You try it.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 04:56:42 PM by ungod »
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"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline Ice Monkey

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I've mentioned this is passing before (it's where I got my forum name from after all), but I've never heard a reasonable response from Christians (who often just ignore it).

This passage is pretty clear:

2 Kings 2
23
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

 24
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.


Kids make fun of man. Man calls on God with a curse. God sends wild bears to rip the children to shreds. I find it hard to 'interpret' this in any other way.

Can any Christians justify this at all?

It's just one of those stories that looked like a good idea to include at the time....

Just as alarming - in the original manuscripts, after Abraham and Isaac go to the place where Isaac is to be killed, where the holy spirit supposedly stays Abraham's hand, Isaac is never heard from again.
Human authors.  Will they never learn?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Not even Christians agree when it comes to pre-destinationanything, so I doubt we will.
There, fixed that for ya. Well, whether or not Christians agree with it or not, the Bible says:
Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

In other words, it's all down to who God chooses. Sure, it's probably likely that you can find a verse somewhere that negates that, but that is not my problem, seeing as I freely admit that the book is full of irretrievable contradictions.
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The way I see it, if there are people in the world who God really does prevent from knowing Him, it's unlikely to be the people who spend time discussing Him...even on a hypothetical basis. Just my thoughts on the matter. But ultimately I have always considered pre-destination to be fore-knowledge....
Since it says not a word of that in the Bible, please just be honest and admit that you are making it up.
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as in, God can look at someones heart and know where their eternity will lie.
No. You can see very clearly from the verses that I posted above that what you describe is not what is stated. Again, just admit that you are making stuff up, putting words in Gods mouth. I'm sure he appreciates it.
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I also remind myself often that I, for instance, had no claim to be saved...I don't deserve to be, and God would have done no wrong in leaving me to suffer the consequence of my sins. 
Please tell me then, what you did, prior to being born, to be born in a state of sin. Don't talk to me about Adam or Eve or ANYONE but you. I want to know what YOU did prior to YOUR existence to deserve so much punishment that you are not worthy to be saved. Please share your pre-utero grievances with us. Maybe we'll even forgive you.

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Not quite sure of your meaning here...are you making the point that often even extremely 'good' people don't find God?
I am making the point that the person who was largely considered to be the most spiritual, Christian person in the world (even more than the pope, who everyone laughs at anyways) felt that God was absent. Wouldn't answer her prayers, wouldn't give her a sign, wouldn't give her hope, nothing. She was as sincere as could be, and and as faithful as could be Yet the good, gracious, merciful, loving, just and good Lord did nothing, even as she was surrounded by some of the most horrible poverty and destitution that even the writers of the OT could imagine. If anyone, anywhere would have been worthy of a wink from God, it would have been her. Didn't happen. Yet God gave Hitler plenty of help in doing the Lord's work by eradicating the Jewish people (note: The same Jewish people who are supposed to be this God's chosen people).
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  If so, I think you need to rememeber that God sees the heart.
Please describe to me the means by which God is able to visualize. Also, you need to remember that thoughts, feelings, desires and emotions occur in the brain, not the heart. You would think that God would know that  &)
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outwardly I reckon I appear pretty good, but i know how black my heart is sometimes. no one will find God by being good.
That is an interesting admission there. It implies that evil people are just as likely to be chosen by God as good people.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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You have read the whole bible but can't see any of the ways God has demonstrated his power than in killing people?
Not off of the top of my head. Sure he might do something kind now and then, like stop the sun so that Joshua can kill more people, or part the Red Sea to save his people from the Egyptians (even though such an event never occurred, as there is no evidence of Egypt having a giant Jewish slave army rebellion.)
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That's hard to believe. If you're arguing against God as someone who exists, you need to consider the fact that He spoke a world into being. You try it.
Seriously, that's the best you've got? There is no more reason to believe the biblical creation story than there is to believe in the Norse creation story. You are the product of Vili, Ve and Odin. They created our world out of the corpse of the giant Ymir (note that this is plausible, per the Bible, since it also thinks giants are real). YOU try it.

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OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.
receiving praise is not an indicator of benevolent behavior, unless you consider North Korean dictators to be benevolent. Skip the praise, I won't count it, since it does nothing to demonstrate your point, refute mine, and because God is often praised because of his violence and terror. Nonetheless, I accept your challenge, as foolish as it is of you to pose it. Note that I will also not accept any form of violence, any command to do violence, or any threat as a demonstration of "God showing love, patience and kindness", and if I need to explain to you why, you seriously need psychiatric help. So here is my verse one. Good effin luck dude, you're gonna need it.

Numbers 16:41-49
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But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the LORD.

 42And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the LORD appeared.

 43And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation.

 44And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

 45Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces.

 46And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the LORD; the plague is begun.

 47And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people.

 48And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed.

 49Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah.
God kills 14,700 of his own people because they complained that God was killing his own people. Love, patience and kindness my ass.



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Was it wrong for God to do that? Why?
Because murder rape and ethnic cleansing are wrong. If you disagree, please demonstrate your sincerity by volunteering for all three. Or be willing to admit that your God loves violence, death, rape and evil.

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I don't think it's as simple as Jesus claiming that every OT law still applied. He didn't say it like that. My understanding has always been that He was basically telling the jews that they were quite free to go on 'attempting' to obey those laws..but that it was futile, and that He was prepared to provide a way they actually could find favor with God.
Jesus said he came to uphold the law, not abolish it. Again, you are putting words into your Lord's mouth.

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It's something i want to do some more looking into...bear with me.

So being a follower of Jesus doesn't grant you anymore insight than I have? I ask again, THEN WHAT IS THE POINT!?!?!
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Add Homonym

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You are supposed to fear God.

God does brutal things all the time; we shouldn't begrudge the few times He owns up to it. It's basically transparency in government.  BTW, I sent that Tsunami because people in the Indian pacific weren't Christian enough. Pompeii was a bit of fun. Plague: excellent value, even it it wiped out mostly Christians.

I worry about the justice aspect of the bear story, because no matter how many times I cuss the profits, God wont send a bear to kill me. What kind of favoritism is that?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Not just justice, AddH, but also consistency. If he does in the kids for blatant disregard and disrespect. but never smites anybody else for the same reason, what lesson is learned? How come he did the kids in but I can flip the finger at either the bald guy or god himself and not a thing happens to AAAAARRGGHHHH! Just kidding. I'm fine. But why? As an atheist first class I have surely offended the dude numerous times, and yet here I am. I've lived eight to ten times longer than the kids he offed via bears, and I've said far worse things about him and his followers.

Hope that my own baldness doesn't make me immune or something.

I wanna get zapped by god! It should be a right, not a privilege.

Unless he doesn't exist. Then never mind.
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Offline magicmiles

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update...sorry, I have had many new work assignments come through and I won't be able to make any meaningful responses to this thread for a while, probably not until after Easter long weekend actually.

I shall probably pop in and out to contribute to some of the more trivial threads. which don't require any thought

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Brakeman

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 Acts differently at different times? That is putting a shiny spin on it. Allow me to demonstrate. The Old Testament shows a merciless, jealous vengeful God who demands absolute submission or death. Nothing else.

OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.

Ehrr .. that's not the way it works now is it? That's like saying "yeah! Apart from all the anti-semitic things and the war mongering, Adolf Hitler was a nice guy."

"Except for that little bombing thing, Timothy McVeigh was a great guy to have a beer with.."

Tell me Magicmiles, How "good" is god in the smiting of Uzzah in 2 Samuel 6. ?
Is killing and sending to hell for eternity a proper punishment for trying to protect the ark from smashing the ground?
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Offline changeling

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I shall probably pop in and out to contribute to some of the more trivial threads. which don't require any thought

Just like in the past?

Sorry MM. That was a joke, I couldn't resist it.  :laugh:
Actually I like most of your posts.
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Offline gonegolfing

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update...sorry, I have had many new work assignments come through and I won't be able to make any meaningful responses to this thread for a while, probably not until after Easter long weekend actually.

I shall probably pop in and out to contribute to some of the more trivial threads. which don't require any thought

"I shall"...seriously ?  .....I'm picturing thee saying thine statement above whilst wearing a peruke !


GG:

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Your lunch and shake are gone...now what ?

Well....that answers my question at least.


Your last comment should pretty much convince people here--that your really not serious anymore(that's if you ever were) about discussing your faith.  ;)

When people's personal god idea runs out of gas, your response above is the usual one we get.... It's a shame really. Instead of giving an admission of their being wrong and that there idea is defeated, they use the "I'm busy" and not enough time excuse.

Besides, WWGHA is more than likely just a source of entertainment to you and now that your close to having that spoiled, you decide to pull back and go into a "Participation Lite" mode.

Carry on  ;)

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Offline screwtape

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update...sorry, I have had many new work assignments come through and I won't be able to make any meaningful responses to this thread for a while, probably not until after Easter long weekend actually.

I shall probably pop in and out to contribute to some of the more trivial threads. which don't require any thought

This does not look very good.  Let me tell you what it appears to be - a cop out.  You issued a challenge to kaziglu.  He took you up on it.  Now, you suddenly and conveniently have no time.  I'm not saying that is the case.  But it sure looks like it.

If the situation is not what it appears and you are genuine, then you will spend whatever time you have here fulfilling your end of the bargain with kaz.  If not, we are going to have a problem.

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Offline Eaten by Bears

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 Acts differently at different times? That is putting a shiny spin on it. Allow me to demonstrate. The Old Testament shows a merciless, jealous vengeful God who demands absolute submission or death. Nothing else.

OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.


Mr Smith bought his wife some lovely flowers for Valentine's Day.
Mr Smith helps children with learning difficulties in his spare time.
Mr Smith always helps old ladies across the road.
Mr Smith gives some of his earnings to charities.
Mr Smith is loved by all his friends.
Mr Smith keeps a teenage girl locked naked in his basment. He beats her until her skin cracks and bleeds.

Is Mr Smith a nice person?

Offline kaziglu bey

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This does not look very good.  Let me tell you what it appears to be - a cop out.  You issued a challenge to kaziglu.  He took you up on it.  Now, you suddenly and conveniently have no time.  I'm not saying that is the case.  But it sure looks like it.

If the situation is not what it appears and you are genuine, then you will spend whatever time you have here fulfilling your end of the bargain with kaz.  If not, we are going to have a problem.



Awww... cut the poor guy a break. Did you really think that he could find 10 incidences of God doing good[1] things in the OT that fast?  :P
 1. In those cases where "good" doesn't mean slavery, rape, murder, ethnic cleansing, misogyny, blood rituals, child killing, plague setting, cannibalism, Earth drowning, city destroying[1], or human sacrifice.
 1. I remember reading somewhere, possibly even this forum, that the alleged destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah could possibly refer to an ancient city being wiped out by an asteroid impact. Anyone know anything about this?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline magicmiles

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Oh ye of little faith...

I really have become very busy with work...it ebbs and flows. I don't work 9-5.

I want to be able to put some time and thought into my responses here....and I will, when I have the opportunity.

Until then, I still enjoy taking 5 minutes a couple of times during the day to see what's happening here...like now, for instance.

But I don't have the hour or more I need to devote to it currently.


Go on up you baldhead.

Offline velkyn

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yep, cop out.  You have time to contribute to a bunch of trivial thread but not time to contribute to at least one solitary one where your claims have been questioned.   And we're supposed to beleive this excuse.   &)
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online One Above All

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I believe him.
inb4you'renaive
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Brakeman

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Christian Apologetics requires an extensive regimen of stretching before engaging critics. This is time consuming. It requires stretching of reality, history, science, linguistics, evidence, and truth. Otherwise they might pull something and break a mind wall. Can't have that happen..
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline magicmiles

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magic

I have an earnest question. The book you want us to revere contains stories of a god who actively participates in human events. Overtly. In the old testament he routinely goes postal on humans, in the new testament (which I am not very familiar with outside of the jesus story) he at at least f**ks with our heads. And he spent 4,000 years (if one is to believe fundy timelines) playing out a story (the fall/redemption), each part of which is useless without the others (A&E had to sin, JC had to be born, one of his disciples had to betray him, the Romans had to have a reason do zap him, his method of death had to allow him to have a few last words, his rising had to be impressive, etc.) A story that could have had a happier ending if he had just given the new kids on the planet a chance to mature and kept the frickin' snake out of the garden.

seems to me A and E had it pretty good...living in perfection and instructed to not eat from just one specific tree. It's not as though they were being asked to suck lemons 24/7 whilst surrounded by good things which were forbidden.
Do you not see that in your own behaviour? I know I do. Just want that little bit more.



Your book has men in fish bellies, the feeding of many with small amounts of food, giant floods, escapes from evil tyrants, an origin story that is too frickin' cute to even discuss and the occasional lesson about being respectful of our elders, as the story questioned in the OP probably intended.

All of these events demonstrate the great themes of the bible, that God is great and cannot tolerate sin but is also merciful and loves His creation. Of course, it's the not being able to tolerate sin which gets folk hot under the collar, because they refuse to concede that they might possibly need to account to somebody like God.


Can you see why there are those of us who, seeing no direct evidence of a god and see direct parallels between the christian stories and the non-christian stories of a thousand civilizations might not give the tale the weight you do?

Sort of PP. There are of course many variables in everybodies exposure to the bible and to the world generally. My brother takes great pleasure in pointing out to me that if I had been born in China chances are i wouldn't be a Christian. And he may well be right....but I don't see how it changes the way i look at things now. I believe God is real, and the fact that others apparently don't has never been compelling to me, although it does sadden me.

It doesn't make sense to me in the sense that God states quite clearly in Romans that men are without excuse when it comes to their attitude to God. I do find that difficult to reconcile with those who flat out claim they have simply never once had even the slightest feeling that God is the real deal.
Mind you, that sort of 'never even had an inkling' type of atheist seems to be pretty rare. On these boards you seem to be one of the few who might fit in that category.


 Can you understand that those of us who have experienced life sans god are not any worse off. Can you understand that in my half a century as an atheist I have suffered no major horrible events while many dozens of my christian friends and aquaintences have had to endure or died because of a huge assortment of tragedies. If there isn't at least some tiny hint of an advantage in being christian, where is the appeal?

Christianity differes from every other faith in that regard. It doesn't say that being a Christian in this lifetime gets you any special privilges, in fact it really says the opposite.
In that sense, nobody should ever try to 'sell' you Christianity the way they might sell you an investment scheme where you'll see the rewards in this lifetime. ( I know, and it angers me, that many have warped the messgae of God to just such a worthless and fake idea ). Just one more reason to doubt God right, His created beings can be wankers?
Imagine if you owned a construction company and had a blueprint for building houses, and over the years some of your maore lazy and greedy employees started peddling a blueprint which resulted in a great looking house in half the time at half the cost. It still has your name on it, and when they collapse in 20 year your name will be mud.


I chalk the differences in peoples lives, the good and the tragic, to the luck of the draw, not the beliefs of the person whose children died or died a painful death of bone cancer. I am undoubtably due for my own death, and it might be quick or might be as bad or worse than any I have witnessed. But I've gone an awfully long time doing just fine for a sinner.

I don't want to belabour the point or be accused of a Pascal wager point of view, but the 62 odd years you have lived is kind of not much in the context of eternity.


Because what he has done up to this point is obviously pretty ineffective. Because it hasn't touched me.

It has, you know the gospel message, although I encourage you to read all the NT as well. You choose to not beleive it, for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't make the message ineffective.  It makes you free to make decisiosn and accountable for them.



A real god might well be sitting back and just watching. But he should also be wondering how we turned out, in general, much more moral than he is. For as flawed as we humans are as a group, as individuals there are very few amongst us who would actually drown the entire planet just because we f**ked up and did it wrong the first time. And you can't say that about your sky guy.

You can't point to any universal moral to judge God against. You can look at the things God has done and judge them as evil, or you can try thinking more carefully about why He has done them and what that means on a personal level. And then reflect on the message of the cross.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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I'll try to get some more responses done tomorrow.
Go on up you baldhead.