Author Topic: (2 x Angry Bears) + (42 x Children) = Fun had by all (except the children)  (Read 4492 times)

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Offline kaziglu bey

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admitting He's real is a good place to start, and see what happens from there...
Rubbish. God has had our destinies set even before our creation. We have no choice in the matter. Please try reading the Bible.

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mate, I wish I had all the answers but i don't.
If your faith gives you no greater advantage in these situations, then what good is it?
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I know you tried God on for size once and it didn't fit, like many here. Only you know how sincere you were with that. it's hard for any Christian to see someone genuinely look for God and not find Him.
You mean, someone like, Mother Theresa? Genuinely looking for God, yet not finding him? Imagine that... It's hard to find someone who is invisible and makes no discernible difference in the way the universe operates.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Zankuu

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you'd have to think the whole world's existence tragic then wouldn't you?

Indeed. A universe governed by a sociopath would be tragic. The good news is that invisible deities massacring groups of children via mind controlled bears is a thing of fantasy.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline magicmiles

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Yeah, that's always been an issue with me.  The only time God ever hears anyone, is when they are sincere.

makes a lot of sense to me...but as I said, it troubles me and every Christian i know when someone appears to earnestly seek God but still then not believe.

jesus said "Knock and the door shall be opened unto you". I wonder if some people knock only to check if someone is home, as opposed to knocking because they want to come in.


If I were to "admit He's real", I would be stuck wondering what to do next.  Pray?   

Definitely.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline HAL

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makes a lot of sense to me...but as I said, it troubles me and every Christian i know when someone appears to earnestly seek God but still then not believe.

Lose your car keys and see if god helps you find them. I've seen messages claiming he's helped believers in that area.

Offline screwtape

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It would appear to me the teasing was more than just about baldness....the 'go on up' does appear to be a taunt about going to heaven if you really are a prophet like Elijah.

WHAT?  They said THAT?  Well, then. They TOTALLY deserved what they got, the little bastards.

if it's fiction...then who really gives a crap

If you look at how xians apply all sorts of excuses to justify it, you should.  It means, whether fiction or not, xians are not actually moral, but rather blind idiots who think whatever they think the bible tells them to think. 

And if the bible is supposed to be a source of moral instruction, as so many xians think, then what is the lesson to be learned here?  Is it a good lesson?  Is it really a moral lesson?  You say it is "don't mock god".  I say, why would an omnipotent deity have such thin skin?  Sounds rather petty, egotistical and human.  Beneath the omnipotent creator of the universe.

if it's partly embellished....seems to me we'll never know which parts really happened. Would seem likely it would be the bear part that was embellished. So again...who really gives a crap.

You really miss the point.  See above.

if it totally happened...then it appears God has the ability and propensity to punish those who dis-honour His name. And laughing about Him, abusing Him and generally calling Him a monster might be all fun and ha ha ha for many years, but it might go a bit sour on you one day.

Is that really a god worth worshipping?  You said the universe takes your breath away, but so what?  Picasso's work took away the breath of many people, but he was also a chauvinistic piece of shit.  So if there were such a thing as a yhwh and if it did create the universe, well, nice work.  Bravo.  But that does not make yhwh any less loathsome.

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Offline magicmiles

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I think Jetson poses a very fair and salient question here. How is it that he, as well as myself and most other atheists here, who spend so much time and effort in laying waste to the concept of God, are not punished for our actions? In this discussion, we see God react  immediately to punish those who do so.

Indeed. But it would sort of be a bit sad, wouldn't it, if killing you instantly was what it took to make you believe?

God clearly acts differently at different times. Personally, I embrace the fact that I wasn't wiped from the face of the earth before I repented. Seeing it as some sort of piss-weak act of inconsistency is totally your prerogative, of course.


 As I have just pointed out to you, God's punishment is typically swift and decisive.

was swift and decisive, in some situations. Incredible patience shown at other times. As per above, better to be thankful for the patience than to wait for the swift and decisive.


is it just for God to punish those who, having not yet a fully developed brain, and having learned much of their behavior from others, all through no fault of their own, for behaving exactly as God "designed" children to behave?

I'm no OT scholar. I know that some who are consider they may have been young men, in fact. I don't think it's especially relevant. We know, after all, that God allowed Israel to put whole cities to the sword in His name.


So, why haven't I been eaten by bears?

maybe God has a shark set aside for you. Come to Australia...we'll go swimming..

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Offline Anfauglir

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I've mentioned this is passing before (it's where I got my forum name from after all), but I've never heard a reasonable response from Christians (who often just ignore it).

As I believe has been pointed out, the answer boils down to "it was a different time".

God gave clear commandments as to honouring your parents, and having no god but him.  Easy to extend this to mean it applies to ALL older and wiser people, especially if they happen to be priests.

Add to that the specific rules about putting disobedient children to death, and there's no contradiction or problem with this passage - the kids broke the commandments, god (for once) stepped in himself and dealt out the statutory punishment.  Case closed.

Perhaps the more realistic quesion for believers would be "what would Christ have felt about this episode?"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Indeed. But it would sort of be a bit sad, wouldn't it, if killing you instantly was what it took to make you believe?
Except for the (at least) 2,476,636 people mentioned in the Bible for whom this was exactly what God did. Sad perhaps, but only because God can't think of a better way to demonstrate his power than cruelty and violence. Kind of like Saddam Hussein, Vlad the Impaler, or Adolf Hitler. Cruel, merciless dictators, all in the service of their God and doing the Lord's work.

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God clearly acts differently at different times. Personally, I embrace the fact that I wasn't wiped from the face of the earth before I repented. Seeing it as some sort of piss-weak act of inconsistency is totally your prerogative, of course.
Acts differently at different times? That is putting a shiny spin on it. Allow me to demonstrate. The Old Testament shows a merciless, jealous vengeful God who demands absolute submission or death. Nothing else. His followers are free to, and even commanded by God, to murder, rape and enslave their enemies. Fast forward to Jesus and the NT. Now we all know that Jesus said that he came to uphold the old laws, and to bring a sword, not peace. But then he also tells us to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, treat others as they want to be treated, etc. This is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what was prescribed in the OT. Even though he is supposed to be enforcing OT law, he ignores a lot of it with all of the warm fuzzy lovey stuff. Kill, rape and enslave your enemies is not =  to love your enemies. It is the total opposite. So, did God get it wrong in the OT, or just some of it wrong, or was it in fact Jesus who was wrong? Because what was formerly considered a destiny of God's people is overturned with the whole love your enemy thing. Is this just God acting in different ways at different times? If morality comes from God, but God is constantly changing his mind as to what is good and what is evil, how can we trust him to determine this for us?

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was swift and decisive, in some situations. Incredible patience shown at other times. As per above, better to be thankful for the patience than to wait for the swift and decisive.
Then by what means does God determine who to punish now, and who to punish later? Especially since he predestined us to do all of this anyways?

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I'm no OT scholar. I know that some who are consider they may have been young men, in fact. I don't think it's especially relevant. We know, after all, that God allowed Israel to put whole cities to the sword in His name.
Brutally murdering children is "not relevant"? Putting whole cities to death in his name is just? Please read the first quote in my signature, and consider its "relevance".

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maybe God has a shark set aside for you. Come to Australia...we'll go swimming..
He already had his opportunity for the shark, as I have been swimming in the Atlantic ocean. God failed. Again.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline gonegolfing

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Perhaps the more realistic quesion for believers would be "what would Christ have felt about this episode?"

Jesus was right there and watched it all didn't he ? Accordingly, wouldn't the whole disgusting affair have been observed by the trinity as it happened ?

God: "Hey guys look at this--those ungrateful brat kids are teasing Elisha and he has called down a curse on them--what do you think I should do ?

Jesus: "Lice sounds good to me, that will make them scratch their heads and think a bit."

HG: " Nah, maybe boils ? ...or how about a localized earth quake to shake em up ?"

God: "Whats wrong with you two ! ...Stop wussing out just because they're children ! No, this calls for something fierce and permanent.....Let's see.....Oh look ! there's a couple of bears right close to them ...Perfect !


Could the human mind be any more odious ? Creating such a disgusting story to prove the point: don't mess with your/our god or his elect--shows how wicked of mind, and savage in action, and desperate to make their deity the most powerful and vicious, these authors really were.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 08:15:58 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline Azdgari

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makes a lot of sense to me...but as I said, it troubles me and every Christian i know when someone appears to earnestly seek God but still then not believe.

The typical Christian reaction on this forum is to positively conclude that such people are not (or were not) really earnestly seeking.  That way, rather than have their beliefs challenged, all they have to do is pre-judge others.  And that's way, way easier.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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magic

I have an earnest question. The book you want us to revere contains stories of a god who actively participates in human events. Overtly. In the old testament he routinely goes postal on humans, in the new testament (which I am not very familiar with outside of the jesus story) he at at least f**ks with our heads. And he spent 4,000 years (if one is to believe fundy timelines) playing out a story (the fall/redemption), each part of which is useless without the others (A&E had to sin, JC had to be born, one of his disciples had to betray him, the Romans had to have a reason do zap him, his method of death had to allow him to have a few last words, his rising had to be impressive, etc.) A story that could have had a happier ending if he had just given the new kids on the planet a chance to mature and kept the frickin' snake out of the garden.

We live in a world that has, over time, generated an incredible array of fairy tales. I'm talking now about stories that everyone agrees are fairy tales. The stories the Grimm brothers published in 1812 were a collection of old euroasian tales, handed down over the ages. Stories that taught about basic human weaknesses, like greed and vanity and wisdom and such.

The Greek gods were a collection of human weaknesses with semi-superpowers. American Indians and Asian peoples and the natives of Africa all had stories, some attributed to gods, some just stories, that were used to teach children right from wrong, good from bad, etc.

Where are the fairy tales from the culture that gave us the bible? Where are their silly stories about foxes trying to get grapes out of a pitcher or poor little girls becoming princesses? Did they have none? Or did they have a bunch of them that became incorporated into one tome now considered by many to be true?

Your book has men in fish bellies, the feeding of many with small amounts of food, giant floods, escapes from evil tyrants, an origin story that is too frickin' cute to even discuss and the occasional lesson about being respectful of our elders, as the story questioned in the OP probably intended.

Can you see why there are those of us who, seeing no direct evidence of a god and see direct parallels between the christian stories and the non-christian stories of a thousand civilizations might not give the tale the weight you do? Can you understand that those of us who have experienced life sans god are not any worse off. Can you understand that in my half a century as an atheist I have suffered no major horrible events while many dozens of my christian friends and aquaintences have had to endure or died because of a huge assortment of tragedies. If there isn't at least some tiny hint of an advantage in being christian, where is the appeal?

I chalk the differences in peoples lives, the good and the tragic, to the luck of the draw, not the beliefs of the person whose children died or died a painful death of bone cancer. I am undoubtably due for my own death, and it might be quick or might be as bad or worse than any I have witnessed. But I've gone an awfully long time doing just fine for a sinner.

If the bible teaches us good ways to behave, those same lessons are available from thousands of other sources, many of which are rated PG. The addition of rage, revenge, mass death, fear and loathing, tests of faith and bad information may make for a best seller, but it is not necessarily useful.

And if personal redemption is an actual requirement, the least the guy could do is have two volumes, one full of dirt eating snakes and faulty lessons in genetics involving stripped sticks, and the other with the actual relevant stuff, metaphor free, in large letters, translated by him into the various languages of the world. Because what he has done up to this point is obviously pretty ineffective. Because it hasn't touched me.

If this god of yours is real, he does not appear to participate directly in our world any more. The only one writing on walls these days are Banksy and the lesser graffiti artists. The only ones clearly watching everything we do are our governments. The only ones curing disease are doctors and the only ones killing by the thousands are our fellow human beings. A real god might well be sitting back and just watching. But he should also be wondering how we turned out, in general, much more moral than he is. For as flawed as we humans are as a group, as individuals there are very few amongst us who would actually drown the entire planet just because we f**ked up and did it wrong the first time. And you can't say that about your sky guy.
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Offline magicmiles

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I'll get back to this particular discussion when time allows, possibly in a day or so.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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I'll get back to this particular discussion when time allows, possibly in a day or so.

No fair having a life. That isn't allowed around here!  :)
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Ivellios

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How do I manage to not get killed by this god?

admitting He's real is a good place to start, and see what happens from there...

So, admit god is real to be killed by him? By stating god is imaginary, he the All-Powerful becomes powerless? So that he could just not exist at all?

Just because people don't believe in me, doesn't mean that I stop being able to affect thier lives. Just because people believe I may be a certain way, doesn't make thier belief a reality. I am nowhere as powerful as yhwh's PR book and followers claim he is, so why is it that not believing him makes him as powerless as Zeus? Simple, like Zeus, he isn't there to begin with.

Offline magicmiles

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Rubbish. God has had our destinies set even before our creation. We have no choice in the matter. Please try reading the Bible.

Not even Christians agree when it comes to pre-destination, so I doubt we will. The way I see it, if there are people in the world who God really does prevent from knowing Him, it's unlikely to be the people who spend time discussing Him...even on a hypothetical basis. Just my thoughts on the matter. But ultimately I have always considered pre-destination to be fore-knowledge....as in, God can look at someones heart and know where their eternity will lie. I also remind myself often that I, for instance, had no claim to be saved...I don't deserve to be, and God would have done no wrong in leaving me to suffer the consequence of my sins. 



You mean, someone like, Mother Theresa? Genuinely looking for God, yet not finding him? Imagine that... It's hard to find someone who is invisible and makes no discernible difference in the way the universe operates.

Not quite sure of your meaning here...are you making the point that often even extremely 'good' people don't find God? If so, I think you need to rememeber that God sees the heart. outwardly I reckon I appear pretty good, but i know how black my heart is sometimes. no one will find God by being good.
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Offline magicmiles

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WHAT?  They said THAT?  Well, then. They TOTALLY deserved what they got, the little bastards.

If God is real...then on what basis could one possibly ever claim that he did something wrong? On what higher authority and level of understanding would they be basing such a claim? As I have conceded, I too question what God has done...I don't see why other options weren't available. But I also know full well that I look at things with imperfect understanding.

if it's fiction...then who really gives a crap

If you look at how xians apply all sorts of excuses to justify it, you should.  It means, whether fiction or not, xians are not actually moral, but rather blind idiots who think whatever they think the bible tells them to think. 

Cuts both ways. You look at the world and see no God...but follow the law of the land ( I assume ). Does that make you moral, or just someone who does something he is compelled to? What's moral about doing good things only because it helps socirty better function?

If you're concerned about the damage Christians do because they believe a non fiction book, we can start another tired old thread comparing the negative consequences of that to the negative consequences of living with no moral authority, just a need to ensure the world keeps on keeping on.


And if the bible is supposed to be a source of moral instruction, as so many xians think, then what is the lesson to be learned here?  Is it a good lesson?  Is it really a moral lesson?  You say it is "don't mock god".  I say, why would an omnipotent deity have such thin skin?  Sounds rather petty, egotistical and human.  Beneath the omnipotent creator of the universe.

No lesson, if you don't believe God is real. If you believed Him real, then He is God...and it is just crazy to then try and say what He should be. Better to consider what He is...and you do that on the basis of belief, you then also need to look at the God of love and not just the God of anger.


Is that really a god worth worshipping?  You said the universe takes your breath away, but so what?  Picasso's work took away the breath of many people, but he was also a chauvinistic piece of shit.  So if there were such a thing as a yhwh and if it did create the universe, well, nice work.  Bravo.  But that does not make yhwh any less loathsome.

So long as you are aware you have come to that conclusion...and will be held accountable for it. If God is real, of course.
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Offline magicmiles

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more later..I want to respond specifically to PP, KB (again... ) and GG
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Offline Add Homonym

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I also remind myself often that I, for instance, had no claim to be saved...I don't deserve to be, and God would have done no wrong in leaving me to suffer the consequence of my sins.

There's a bit of brainwashing.

That all comes from Paul, and the Amazing Grace song.

What makes you think that being saved is so great that you 'deserve' to be saved? Why couldn't you be saved as punishment? Why couldn't everyone be 'saved' as a matter of course, simply because it's the next step in our personal evolution, which [a] God had always planned? Most vaguely Christian people alive today, think that they will be going to an afterlife, simply because afterlife follows life, as a matter of course, if you are not Hitler.

We didn't 'deserve' to be born, either, yet God saw to that.

The synoptic Gospel seems to speak of a resurrection - ie another painful, long, drawn-out life, where you must again struggle to perform to God's expectations. Why would you deserve to be a toy of God, once again?

You really think it will be all fun and games in the afterlife, not another series of tests and doubts? The Indians seem to believe that you are born again and again, until you reach some kind of mental state. The default state is afterlife, and more pain. Liberation is oblivion.

The Christian afterlife is sickly thin on details. At least Islam specifies that you will get rivers of wine, lots of food, and women.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline Add Homonym

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But I also know full well that I look at things with imperfect understanding.

Because you insist on believing the crap in the Bible.

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Cuts both ways. You look at the world and see no God...but follow the law of the land ( I assume ). Does that make you moral, or just someone who does something he is compelled to? What's moral about doing good things only because it helps socirty better function?

Christians typically are moral, because they want to be rewarded. I believe Screwtape emphasized the wrong aspect.

It's a pretty high morality, where you do things to help society, with no real thought of reward.

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Offline Anfauglir

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WHAT?  They said THAT?  Well, then. They TOTALLY deserved what they got, the little bastards.

If God is real...then on what basis could one possibly ever claim that he did something wrong? On what higher authority and level of understanding would they be basing such a claim? As I have conceded, I too question what God has done...I don't see why other options weren't available. But I also know full well that I look at things with imperfect understanding.

And how dare you do that?  You admit your understanding is imperfect, you admit there is no higher authority....how dare you question?

To question for one second that there might have been a "better way" of dealing with those boys means you are setting yourself up against your god.  How dare you?  God is perfect, god is right, you should simply nod and agree that whatever he does is for the best, that he was absolutely and utterly right and justified to send the bears to rip them apart.  And god is love too.

But no - of course you question.  Because you recognise that what your god did is unjustifiable, completely evil and un-loving, and just plain wrong.    Your humanity is in conflict with your religion, you can't bring yourself to the position I outlined above, where you just agree with god whatever he does without a qualm.....and good thing too. 

What does it say to you, when your humanity and sense of what is good and loving comes into such stark collision with what your god actually does?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Add Homonym

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And how dare you do that?  You admit your understanding is imperfect, you admit there is no higher authority....how dare you question?

He's not questioning. He's just saying that he hasn't yet reached the correct brainwashed state, yet.
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Offline Historicity

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Where are the fairy tales from the culture that gave us the bible? Where are their silly stories about foxes trying to get grapes out of a pitcher or poor little girls becoming princesses? Did they have none? Or did they have a bunch of them that became incorporated into one tome now considered by many to be true?

Your book has men in fish bellies, the feeding of many with small amounts of food, giant floods, escapes from evil tyrants, an origin story that is too frickin' cute to even discuss and the occasional lesson about being respectful of our elders, as the story questioned in the OP probably intended.

Don't forget the talking donkey in Numbers 22.


Offline magicmiles

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Except for the (at least) 2,476,636 people mentioned in the Bible for whom this was exactly what God did. Sad perhaps, but only because God can't think of a better way to demonstrate his power than cruelty and violence. Kind of like Saddam Hussein, Vlad the Impaler, or Adolf Hitler. Cruel, merciless dictators, all in the service of their God and doing the Lord's work.


You have read the whole bible but can't see any of the ways God has demonstrated his power than in killing people? That's hard to believe. If you're arguing against God as someone who exists, you need to consider the fact that He spoke a world into being. You try it.


 Acts differently at different times? That is putting a shiny spin on it. Allow me to demonstrate. The Old Testament shows a merciless, jealous vengeful God who demands absolute submission or death. Nothing else.

OK. You post one verse which supports this narrow view. Then I'll post 10 in response which show either God showing love, patience and kindness or which have someone praising Him. From the OT. We'll see who runs out of verses first.


His followers are free to, and even commanded by God, to murder, rape and enslave their enemies.

Was it wrong for God to do that? Why?


Fast forward to Jesus and the NT. Now we all know that Jesus said that he came to uphold the old laws, and to bring a sword, not peace. But then he also tells us to turn the other cheek, love our enemies, treat others as they want to be treated, etc. This is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what was prescribed in the OT.


I don't think it's as simple as Jesus claiming that every OT law still applied. He didn't say it like that. My understanding has always been that He was basically telling the jews that they were quite free to go on 'attempting' to obey those laws..but that it was futile, and that He was prepared to provide a way they actually could find favor with God.

It's something i want to do some more looking into...bear with me.

 
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Offline magicmiles

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[

Could the human mind be any more odious ? Creating such a disgusting story to prove the point: don't mess with your/our god or his elect--shows how wicked of mind, and savage in action, and desperate to make their deity the most powerful and vicious, these authors really were.

are you serious? surely not. i could invent a worse God doing worse things in no time. it's a strange story...that much is true. think if I was going for shock value I'd have added some more bears and more bodies
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Offline magicmiles

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I'll try and get to your post tomorrow PP
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline magicmiles

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quick question for Joe, since I see him watching the thread:

you red karma'd me for 'attepting to justify God's actions'

if God is real and this happened, then on what basis do you say God was wrong to do it. God being God and all. I'm sure I have seen you argue that there is no moral right and wrong?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline joebbowers

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are you serious? surely not. i could invent a worse God doing worse things in no time. it's a strange story...that much is true.

Considering the time it was written, this is pretty shocking.

think if I was going for shock value I'd have added some more bears and more bodies

Even as it is written, it's obviously not a true story to anyone with a brain. Consider how long it would realistically take 2 bears to tear apart 42 children. Several minutes, at least. So I guess they're all just standing around waiting for their turn to be mauled?

It's simply yet another lie from the bible, which desperate fools buy hook, line, and sinker.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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if God is real and this happened, then on what basis do you say God was wrong to do it. God being God and all.

If God was real, and the bible true, then he would be a being of pure cruelty, malice, and evil. I would try my hardest to kill him, though I would surely fail. I would rather suffer an eternity in hell than bend the knee to a tyrant.

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I'm sure I have seen you argue that there is no moral right and wrong?

No, I have never said that.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline HAL

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Even as it is written, it's obviously not a true story to anyone with a brain. Consider how long it would realistically take 2 bears to tear apart 42 children. Several minutes, at least. So I guess they're all just standing around waiting for their turn to be mauled?

Right. Two bears, lets be gracious and say one bear takes on 3 kiddies at a time - that's six kiddies. Uh, I'd say by the time they were done with those, most of the other kiddies have ran their asses off getting away. The story very probably is not true.