Author Topic: (2 x Angry Bears) + (42 x Children) = Fun had by all (except the children)  (Read 5131 times)

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Online Aaron123

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Elisha was the prophet of God's Wrath so technically this was the righteous anger of God, all people sin so no one is pardoned by themselves. those kids being against God and His priest, they faced the same punishment everyone else will when against Him, they just got it sooner in my opinion

We got another christian on this thread claiming that children do not have the reasoning capacity to understand sin.  Also, you seem to be implying eternal hellfire, this other guy says there is no such thing.  Why should we take you to be correct, and the other guy is wrong?
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Offline Eaten by Bears

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Elisha was the prophet of God's Wrath so technically this was the righteous anger of God, all people sin so no one is pardoned by themselves. those kids being against God and His priest, they faced the same punishment everyone else will when against Him, they just got it sooner in my opinion

So to clarify, you feel that a group of children who called a holy man silly names deserved to be ripped apart by bears?

Let's do a quick mental exercise:
Imagine a child, or even a young adult. Now picture in your head the huge jaws of a wild animal tearing into their flesh. Consider the terror and horrific pain that this child is feeling as blood gushes from his wounds. Think of the friends and family of this child when they find he or she has been gruesomely disfigured or, most probably, killed.

Do it again 41 more times, each time substituting one of your friends, children, parents or other family members. Visualise it. Then tell me they deserved it.

If that's biblegod's idea of justice, then he can kiss my arse.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Wow, I can't say I'm surprised that there has been so little theist response to this thread. It seems to be something they just can't answer, so don't try and hope that if they ignore it, it might go away.

Could this be the Christian Kryptonite?

Offline One Above All

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Wow, I can't say I'm surprised that there has been so little theist response to this thread. It seems to be something they just can't answer, so don't try and hope that if they ignore it, it might go away.

Could this be the Christian Kryptonite?

Pretty much. They don't usually reply in threads directed at them.
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Offline HAL

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I was interested in this and found this lengthy explanation here by the godbotherers -

http://bible.org/seriespage/elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-223-25

They easily rationalize it away.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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I was interested in this and found this lengthy explanation here by the godbotherers -

http://bible.org/seriespage/elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-223-25

They easily rationalize it away.

And yet despite the attempts to pin it all on Satan to make it sound more justified, they still can't disguise what it really was: Verbal abuse punished by violent death.

Still not acceptable.

Offline screwtape

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Still not acceptable.

to you, perhaps.  But the judgment comes from god, who is a priori assumed to be perfectly just, so the punishment is just and acceptable.  This is the problem with the religious.
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Offline screwtape

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I was interested in this and found this lengthy explanation here by the godbotherers -

http://bible.org/seriespage/elisha-and-two-bears-2-kings-223-25

from the link:
Quote
But how opposite to all we have said of the character and call of Elisha, as a messenger of the kindness and love of God our Saviour!”

Maybe the point of the story is "power corrupts"?  Maybe it is supposed to be horrible and the scene is supposed to show us how Elisha's character changed, how the power went to his head?

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Offline Brakeman

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I've mentioned this is passing before (it's where I got my forum name from after all), but I've never heard a reasonable response from Christians (who often just ignore it).

This passage is pretty clear:

2 Kings 2
23
And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

 24
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
..

Seems the Christians have forgotten setting E4-2 on their magic decoder rings.
Prophet = God's word
Bear = Russia (remember the christian explanations of Armageddon in the book of Revelation?)
Kids = younger countries such as the US and Canada .. probably the last 42 countries to join the United Nations.

So the story really goes something like this: The U.S. upset god by electing Obama, so he's going to punish us by sending Female Russian  and Ukrainian athletes to the next Olympic games to humiliate us. Or something of that sort.
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Offline The Gawd

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trolling Xtians in my life today...

TG: So, did you hear about the guy who put two bears on a bunch of kids making fun of his bald spot?
Xtian: No, sounds terrible. Where did that happen?
TG: Yeah, apparently 42 kids were killed... you didnt hear? What kinda person would do that?
Xtian: Terrible person. How could that even happen, doesnt sound believable.
TG: 2nd Kings 2. god did it.
Xian: Ohhhh.
TG: What do you think about it now?
Xtian: If god did it then it was good. I didnt know where it came from.
TG: I know. Thats the only way I could get an honest answer out of you. You see how your morals and honesty went out the door when you called upon your Xtianity?

(paraphrased obviously)

this may be the greatest verse ever.

Offline kaziglu bey

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trolling Xtians in my life today...

TG: So, did you hear about the guy who put two bears on a bunch of kids making fun of his bald spot?
Xtian: No, sounds terrible. Where did that happen?
TG: Yeah, apparently 42 kids were killed... you didnt hear? What kinda person would do that?
Xtian: Terrible person. How could that even happen, doesnt sound believable.
TG: 2nd Kings 2. god did it.
Xian: Ohhhh.
TG: What do you think about it now?
Xtian: If god did it then it was good. I didnt know where it came from.
TG: I know. Thats the only way I could get an honest answer out of you. You see how your morals and honesty went out the door when you called upon your Xtianity?

(paraphrased obviously)

this may be the greatest verse ever.

LOL! With God, all things are possible. But he mostly prefers the bad stuff. Which his followers will go great lengths to spin from "unthinkable evil" to "inconceivably righteous".
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Seppuku

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I've used this one before. Unfortunately one of the responses I did get was that these kids were basically hoodlums, that they were misbehaved and out of control likes some kids today.


So the lesson learned here is, see a bunch of kids doing some graffiti? Set the bears on them. ;)
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
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Offline magicmiles

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It would appear to me the teasing was more than just about baldness....the 'go on up' does appear to be a taunt about going to heaven if you really are a prophet like Elijah.

So what are the options: (as far as i can see)

it's pure fiction

it's partly embellished

it totally happened


if it's fiction...then who really gives a crap

if it's partly embellished....seems to me we'll never know which parts really happened. Would seem likely it would be the bear part that was embellished. So again...who really gives a crap.

if it totally happened...then it appears God has the ability and propensity to punish those who dis-honour His name. And laughing about Him, abusing Him and generally calling Him a monster might be all fun and ha ha ha for many years, but it might go a bit sour on you one day.

That's if it happened.

I assume you all rely on option one. So we're left with....oh yeah. Who gives a crap.


Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Seppuku

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Of course, I'm gonna go for fiction. ;) I've known some Christians to suggest Genesis is fiction (not Phil Collins because that really happened), so maybe 'fiction' isn't just a non-Christian answer.

But I wonder, what would your answer be?


Quote from: magicmiles
if it totally happened...then it appears God has the ability and propensity to punish those who dis-honour His name. And laughing about Him, abusing Him and generally calling Him a monster might be all fun and ha ha ha for many years, but it might go a bit sour on you one day.

If this is the case, we're fucked. ;)
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
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Offline magicmiles

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But I wonder, what would your answer be?

You mean how do I justify it? I don't need to...I had no part in it. God doesn't need me to justify His actions.

If you mean how do I react to it...then the answer is: God isn't someone you make fun of...I knew it already, but I don't mind being reminded from time to time.




Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Zankuu

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magicmiles,

Is there an action your god could make which you would find unjust or is your god justified in all things?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline magicmiles

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magicmiles,

Is there an action your god could make which you would find unjust or is your god justified in all things?

I admit God has done many things which appear unjust to me....but I also don't think i'm in any position to judge. i never see the full picture, and nobody apart from God does.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Samuelxcs

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man just cried to god to stop the bullies. This cannot be justified at all for god.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline jetson

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magicmiles,

Is there an action your god could make which you would find unjust or is your god justified in all things?

I admit God has done many things which appear unjust to me....but I also don't think i'm in any position to judge. i never see the full picture, and nobody apart from God does.

Which is precisely way you should run the opposite direction.  This "God" is unworthy of any praise you might have to offer, or any consideration form you as a human being.

Offline Quartinium

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God seems to be down with wasting people who don't do what he tells them to do. I think it's akin to our modern justice system. If you don't pay your creditors they get mad at you but don't really have anything they can do about it. If you don't pay your taxes you go to jail. However, without taxes much of the good the government does (yes I understand the silliness inherent in that last phrasing) would not be possible. In this light it's necessary for god to waste people who disobey him so that a greater good can be accomplished. That good of course being wasting more people. :)

Offline Zankuu

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I admit God has done many things which appear unjust to me....but I also don't think i'm in any position to judge. i never see the full picture, and nobody apart from God does.

And that's where we differ. I see a god riddled with character flaws that I can scrutinize and form an opinion on.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline magicmiles

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Which is precisely way you should run the opposite direction.  This "God" is unworthy of any praise you might have to offer, or any consideration form you as a human being.

Sure He is. He's my creator. His creation takes my breath away.

Nice to talk to you Jetson...been a while.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline magicmiles

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I admit God has done many things which appear unjust to me....but I also don't think i'm in any position to judge. i never see the full picture, and nobody apart from God does.

And that's where we differ. I see a god riddled with character flaws that I can scrutinize and form an opinion on.

But only as a fictional character....right?

And wow, thanks for the green Karma. I normally only get those with my silly posts.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline jetson

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Sure He is. He's my creator. His creation takes my breath away.

Nice to talk to you Jetson...been a while.

The world and the universe, and life, and everything else, takes my breath away too.  But I don't kneel before anything as monstrous as a god that thinks it is necessary to command blood sacrifice for sins, and to wipe out all of the humans, and kill children with bears.  The list goes on and on and on...

How do I manage to not get killed by this god? 

Offline magicmiles

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How do I manage to not get killed by this god?

admitting He's real is a good place to start, and see what happens from there...

mate, I wish I had all the answers but i don't. I know you tried God on for size once and it didn't fit, like many here. Only you know how sincere you were with that. it's hard for any Christian to see someone genuinely look for God and not find Him.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Zankuu

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But only as a fictional character....right?

Yes, I think the barbaric, bronze age god found in that collection of ancient middle eastern holy books is a fictional character. But I do think it would be quite a tragedy if such a flawed and reckless god actually existed.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline magicmiles

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But I do think it would be quite a tragedy if such a flawed and reckless god actually existed.

you'd have to think the whole world's existence tragic then wouldn't you?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline jetson

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admitting He's real is a good place to start, and see what happens from there...

mate, I wish I had all the answers but i don't. I know you tried God on for size once and it didn't fit, like many here. Only you know how sincere you were with that. it's hard for any Christian to see someone genuinely look for God and not find Him.

Yeah, that's always been an issue with me.  The only time God ever hears anyone, is when they are sincere.  Funny, I could not be more sincere in saying the God is imaginary.  Seems fairly blasphemous to me.

If I were to "admit He's real", I would be stuck wondering what to do next.  Pray?  Go to church?  Tithe?  Or maybe just go on living my life, loving my family, and trying to help make a better society by participating positively, and helping others who are less fortunate, or less able to help themselves?

God was seriously mean back in the day.  These days, I guess we're all just waiting for the end-times.

Offline kaziglu bey

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The world and the universe, and life, and everything else, takes my breath away too.  But I don't kneel before anything as monstrous as a god that thinks it is necessary to command blood sacrifice for sins, and to wipe out all of the humans, and kill children with bears.  The list goes on and on and on...

How do I manage to not get killed by this god?
To magicmiles:
I think Jetson poses a very fair and salient question here. How is it that he, as well as myself and most other atheists here, who spend so much time and effort in laying waste to the concept of God, are not punished for our actions? In this discussion, we see God react  immediately to punish those who do so. In fact, God's punishment as shown in the Bible typically come in the form of sudden, immediate, and lethal violence. Given that you previous stated this:
Quote
if it totally happened...then it appears God has the ability and propensity to punish those who dis-honour His name. And laughing about Him, abusing Him and generally calling Him a monster might be all fun and ha ha ha for many years, but it might go a bit sour on you one day"
You might say that we have just not received our punishment yet. I don't buy into that at all. As I have just pointed out to you, God's punishment is typically swift and decisive. He also dishes out long term punishment in the form of cursing people for generations, but that is often in addition to, and not a replacement for, immediate violence. Even if we allow for God punishing people "eventually"  in some situations, I think it is safe to say that quite a few of us should have been eaten by bears by now, yet we haven't. Has God lost his touch? Or why is he so lazy in enforcing rules of which infractions used to be immediately punished by death? You do remember that, in this here story, we are talking about children being mauled by bears right? For calling a guy "bald head", remember? How is it just for God to punish those who, having not yet a fully developed brain, and having learned much of their behavior from others, all through no fault of their own, for behaving exactly as God "designed" children to behave?

So, why haven't I been eaten by bears? And since when are there bears in the Middle East?[1] There is not a large bear population precisely where I live, but black bears do wander through, and probably have a larger presence than we know, seeing as they are damn clever. Why doesn't God send any of them after me? I am a frequent visitor of Presque Isle State Park. A few years back, a black bear was confirmed as being there. I spent hours there looking for it, hoping to get some pictures. God had a perfect opportunity to have me be torn to shreds by one of his lesser creations. Why would God pass up such a Golden opportunity?
 1. Just did a quick check online, and found that there are in fact bear populations in the Middle East. I never would have thought! It did however seem prudent to check before posting such a statement. Believers, see how quick and easy it is to cure ignorance?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?