Author Topic: In a Godless society  (Read 8847 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #116 on: March 31, 2012, 05:19:52 AM »
Oh, I'm looking forward to it.

What I don't understand is why orpat is devoting so much time and effort to try to get us to understand that nothing has any value.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #117 on: March 31, 2012, 05:23:00 AM »
What I don't understand is why orpat is devoting so much time and effort to try to get us to understand that nothing has any value.....

Well, you see, some things are more neutral than others! His view is the most neutral, while ours is slightly less neutral. But it's all neutral! He just wants us to agree to his, which is the most neutral.
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Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #118 on: March 31, 2012, 07:24:04 AM »
Ah, now I see.  Well, I'm sure he'll be pleased completely unmoved either way to convert us to his opinion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline joebbowers

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #119 on: April 01, 2012, 06:53:27 AM »
This is not directed at anyone specific, but just something I wanted to add to this thread.

I find it disgusting how most people mentally equate the terms "illegal" and "evil". I live in China where they hand out death sentences like candy and publicly execute people for what we would consider to be minor offenses.

The worst part is that the people consider it justice. When someone is shot for being caught with some marijuana, the crowd cheers.

I was discussing this with some of my Chinese friends last night. Tobacco and alcohol are just as dangerous, if not more so, than most recreational drugs, yet they are legal. In the US alone tobacco and alcohol kill nearly half a million people every year. Less than 10,000 die from all 'hard' drugs combined, and the death statistics from marijuana are literally too low to count. There is no official estimate.

Yet drug addicts and dealers are "evil" because drugs are illegal.
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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #120 on: April 01, 2012, 06:57:38 AM »
You're right, but I'd like to add to this:

and the death statistics from marijuana are literally too low to count. There is no official estimate.

From what I've read, marijuana can't kill you directly. You are physically incapable of ingesting and/or smoking enough of it to kill you. What it can do is make you think that retarded ideas aren't so retarded.

@orpat:
We're waiting. It's been two days already.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #121 on: April 01, 2012, 10:06:43 AM »
I find it disgusting how most people mentally equate the terms "illegal" and "evil".

Food for thought.....if morality IS subjective, how much difference is there between the two?  If society agrees that laws are "good", then is someone who breaks the law automatically "evil"?

Assuming that nobody would make a law against something "good" of course......
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline ungod

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #122 on: April 01, 2012, 11:58:29 AM »
You're right, but I'd like to add to this:

and the death statistics from marijuana are literally too low to count. There is no official estimate.

From what I've read, marijuana can't kill you directly. You are physically incapable of ingesting and/or smoking enough of it to kill you.

Hmmm....how much of it did Bob Marley smoke?
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Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #123 on: April 02, 2012, 01:27:08 AM »
I think it all went wrong from here, so I will start  here:

So for what reason do you want to "Clear the Good vs Evil delusion"? 

Because I had a doubt that my personal belief in no good or evil might be a delusion.

Quote
If you believe there IS no such thing as good or bad, why do you care about correcting the delusion?

Because not believing in Good or Evil could also be a delusion.


Quote
If there is no good or bad, why is it important?  Why is anything?

If there is no good or bad, it isn't important. But if there is, it is.

And as was clear from my OP itself :

Quote
How do you distinguish between good and evil?

Or should there be any distinction at all?

After all every thing is natural and part of evolution. A person who wants to kill another person does so because it is his nature, similarly a rapist , a thief etc.

So, isn't it wrong to punish so called evil-doers of society for doing what came naturally to them? Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever they want?

Correct me.

So there you go.
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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #124 on: April 02, 2012, 01:49:53 AM »
orpat, you still haven't addressed the fact that what you claim your beliefs are and your actions are contradictory.
Is it really that difficult for theists to see their own cognitive dissonance? My guess is "no", since you dodged the issue several times.
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Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #125 on: April 02, 2012, 01:58:16 AM »
orpat, you still haven't addressed the fact that what you claim your beliefs are and your actions are contradictory.

Henceforth proving that my beliefs were somewhat wrong.


Quote
Is it really that difficult for theists to see their own cognitive dissonance? My guess is "no", since you dodged the issue several times.

There is a difference between dodging and not getting.

And you gave a -1 karma for my previous post for dodging or not getting?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 02:07:48 AM by orpat »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #126 on: April 02, 2012, 02:07:34 AM »
Lucifer, whether or not you can find creative ways to demonstrate that preserving all life is good from a continuation of the species perspective is not the main thrust of my argument.

My argument is that we do not in reality consider certain things as being wrong only because they might conceivably threaten long term survival of the species.

Indeed, Luci didn't really address your point.  But your point misunderstands the relationship that Zankuu described between survival and morality.

He was not saying that morals are derived logically from what we know helps us survive.  That seems to be how you interpreted his post, but that was not at all what he was describing.  What Zankuu described is how having certain kinds of morality is a positive survival trait.  This doesn't make those morals "true" or "false".[1]  It just means that those morals are the ones we're more likely to see people instinctively adopt.

The tendency to instinctively adopt those morals helps us survive, whether or not any particular manifestation of that moralty does so.  Helping the disabled to walk may not help our species survive in any meaningful way, but a species made up of folks who want to do things like helping the disabled to walk is much more likely to co-operate and survive than a species that doesn't.  And that's what Zankuu was talking about.

Make more sense now?
 1. Whatever that means.
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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #127 on: April 02, 2012, 02:20:20 AM »
Henceforth proving that my beliefs were somewhat wrong.

Arrogance. Humanity's Achilles's heel...[1]
They were not "somewhat" wrong; they were completely wrong. You cannot judge anything without having a sense of right and wrong.

There is a difference between dodging and not getting.

And you gave a -1 karma for my previous post for dodging or not getting?

After what I'm guessing was five to ten posts explaining that? You were either dodging or stupid. I'm leaning more towards the former; hence the -1.
 1. Hyperbole.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #128 on: April 02, 2012, 02:31:09 AM »
After what I'm guessing was five to ten posts explaining that? You were either dodging or stupid.

Neither, it's a case of juggling personal work while responding.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #129 on: April 02, 2012, 02:43:16 AM »

Make more sense now?

Yes. I had misunderstood the point he was making. Thankyou.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #130 on: April 02, 2012, 04:01:04 AM »
.....So, isn't it wrong to punish so called evil-doers of society for doing what came naturally to them? Shouldn't people be allowed to do whatever they want?

Correct me.
[/quote]

Well, I hope we've adequately covered now the fact that - with no concept of good or evil - there is no basis for any action to be taken whatsoever?  Everyone has some idea of what is good and evil, in order for them to be able to interact with the world.

So to return to your OP....as I pointed out a while back, your "people evolved that way, shouldn't we let them do what they want?" is a typical theist response that we hear from those who don't actually understand what evolution is about.

Evolution - survival of the fittest - is neither intrinsically good, or intrinsically evil.....unless you make the decision that "survival=good".  Even if you did so, you would be hard-pushed to be able to apply that to any particular person's actions, since there is a big distinction between "survival of the individual" and "survival of the species".

You've said that you don't believe good or evil exists - which I presume from what you've said means that there is no external objective good or evil.  And as I've said, pretty much everyone here will agree with you.

So what's your point?  We agree that concepts of good and evil are man-made......so is this thread over?  Could it have been over on page 1 if you'd been a little clearer in how you phrased things?

Or shall we now move on to discuss the basis for our own personal subjective systems of good and evil....one of which you must have, as discussed previously, in order to come to any conclusion about whether good or evil is, in fact, good or evil......
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline joebbowers

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #131 on: April 02, 2012, 04:15:33 AM »
From what I've read, marijuana can't kill you directly. You are physically incapable of ingesting and/or smoking enough of it to kill you.

It can probably cause lung cancer and kill you in 20 years or so. Probably a lot less likely than cigarettes as they have a lot of added chemicals. I wouldn't really call something that may or may not kill you in a few decades dangerous, but any time you inhale smoke it can't be healthy.

What it can do is make you think that retarded ideas aren't so retarded.

My penis already does that, I don't need to do drugs to do stupid things.

Food for thought.....if morality IS subjective, how much difference is there between the two?  If society agrees that laws are "good", then is someone who breaks the law automatically "evil"?

Assuming that nobody would make a law against something "good" of course......

My point is that I don't think laws define morality. I don't think they are even intended to, but many people do. Jaywalking is illegal because it can be dangerous and interrupt the flow of traffic. I don't think it's a moral judgement at all.

Your argument also assumes that the people make the laws, but we don't. Lobbyists do. For example copyright laws are very bad for society in general but good for a very few people who can profit from them. I think most people have some mp3s at the very least, and they don't feel guilty about it, despite knowing it's illegal.
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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #132 on: April 02, 2012, 04:23:11 AM »
It can probably cause lung cancer and kill you in 20 years or so. Probably a lot less likely than cigarettes as they have a lot of added chemicals. I wouldn't really call something that may or may not kill you in a few decades dangerous, but any time you inhale smoke it can't be healthy.

If we're going with that[1], then you might as well say that cars are deadly drugs and should be banned.
That's the problem with the arguments against the legalization of marijuana (and pretty much every other drug) - they suck.
 1. I know you're not. This is a general "you".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #133 on: April 02, 2012, 04:40:02 AM »
Food for thought.....if morality IS subjective, how much difference is there between the two?  If society agrees that laws are "good", then is someone who breaks the law automatically "evil"?

Assuming that nobody would make a law against something "good" of course......

My point is that I don't think laws define morality. I don't think they are even intended to, but many people do. Jaywalking is illegal because it can be dangerous and interrupt the flow of traffic. I don't think it's a moral judgement at all.

Jaywalking itself may not be a moral judgement (though given it can be dangerous, to others as well as yourself, would that not be a good case for saying it IS a moral issue?), but the point I was making is that one something IS a law, should we not as a society be agreeing that it is good to follow laws, and bad to break them?

For example copyright laws are very bad for society in general but good for a very few people who can profit from them. I think most people have some mp3s at the very least, and they don't feel guilty about it, despite knowing it's illegal.

Shouldn't they?  I don't have any, because its taking something for free that the person creating it wants me to pay for.....which I regard as theft.  Which I regard as morally wrong.

I agree that a lot of people download, and don't feel guilty.  But does that mean their actions are morally correct?  Although I've never done any research, I expect that a significant number of gang members/burglars/pickpockets/insert other crime here don't feel guilty about it either, despite knowing its illegal. 

Like I said above.....once the law is set, I think it DOES become a moral issue to comply with it (or not), precisely because otherwise you have to make a moral judgement about every single law there is - and explain why "the other guy" has to follow that law when HIS moral compass says its okay for him to do it.

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #134 on: April 02, 2012, 06:52:18 AM »

[/quote]
Quote

Well, I hope we've adequately covered now the fact that - with no concept of good or evil - there is no basis for any action to be taken whatsoever?  Everyone has some idea of what is good and evil, in order for them to be able to interact with the world.

So to return to your OP....as I pointed out a while back, your "people evolved that way, shouldn't we let them do what they want?" is a typical theist response that we hear from those who don't actually understand what evolution is about.

Evolution - survival of the fittest - is neither intrinsically good, or intrinsically evil.....unless you make the decision that "survival=good".  Even if you did so, you would be hard-pushed to be able to apply that to any particular person's actions, since there is a big distinction between "survival of the individual" and "survival of the species".

You've said that you don't believe good or evil exists - which I presume from what you've said means that there is no external objective good or evil.  And as I've said, pretty much everyone here will agree with you.

So what's your point?  We agree that concepts of good and evil are man-made......so is this thread over?  Could it have been over on page 1 if you'd been a little clearer in how you phrased things?




One of the things for which all these questions would not have arisen if i had stated the TA for this question in the first post itself.

TA for this question should be - Theists and Atheists(who  believe in an ultimate good or evil i.e. a Good or Evil that is applicable everywhere, in all situations, all times, all societies and individuals.)


So, if you are an atheist who do not believe in such things, this question should not bother you.




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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #135 on: April 02, 2012, 07:13:53 AM »
TA for this question should be - Theists and Atheists(who  believe in an ultimate good or evil i.e. a Good or Evil that is applicable everywhere, in all situations, all times, all societies and individuals.)

So, if you are an atheist who do not believe in such things, this question should not bother you.

So you're now saying the question is "if you believe in an ultimate good or evil that is applicable everywhere, do you agree that evolution embodies this law, and that people who do 'what comes naturally' should not be punished".

I suspect that will be a very, very small subset of people - indeed, I don't think there is anyone I've ever heard who will agree there is an objective and immutable law that embodies itself in evolution.  So I'm getting more and more confused as to what it is you are actually asking.

I suspect that the only people who would be targetted by your question would be theists who believe that the evolutionary process is one deliberately set-up by/steered by their god, as an embodiment of his/her morality.

Any takers for that?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #136 on: April 03, 2012, 04:05:13 AM »


I suspect that the only people who would be targetted by your question would be theists who believe that the evolutionary process is one deliberately set-up by/steered by their god, as an embodiment of his/her morality.

Any takers for that?

Or mayb atheists
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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #137 on: April 03, 2012, 04:10:31 AM »
Or mayb atheists

We don't have atheists who believe in absolute good and evil here, so no. Go talk to other theists.
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Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #138 on: April 03, 2012, 04:10:39 AM »
Nature is not cruel, pitiless, indifferent. This is one of the hardest lessons for humans to learn. We cannot admit that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous -- indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose.

Richard Dawkins
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26455.html

umm....
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Offline orpat

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #139 on: April 03, 2012, 04:15:12 AM »
Or mayb atheists

We don't have atheists who believe in absolute good and evil here, so no. Go talk to other theists.

damn
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #140 on: April 03, 2012, 05:45:32 AM »
Jaywalking itself may not be a moral judgement (though given it can be dangerous, to others as well as yourself, would that not be a good case for saying it IS a moral issue?), but the point I was making is that one something IS a law, should we not as a society be agreeing that it is good to follow laws, and bad to break them?

No, I don't agree with this. Would you say that someone who drinks is morally superior to someone who smokes pot, purely on the basis that one is legal and one is not?

For example copyright laws are very bad for society in general but good for a very few people who can profit from them. I think most people have some mp3s at the very least, and they don't feel guilty about it, despite knowing it's illegal.

Shouldn't they?  I don't have any, because its taking something for free that the person creating it wants me to pay for.....which I regard as theft.  Which I regard as morally wrong.

I get that part, but there are a couple of problems with it. First, that limits access to information, technology, and medicine to only those who can afford it. Have you seen the price of college textbooks lately?[1] How about Lipitor, a life-saving cholesterol medicine that is marked up almost 5,000%? Or companies in developing nations that have to use pirated copies of Windows on all their computers because they simply can't afford the licenses for Microsoft products. Should only the rich have education[2], health care, and technology?

Second, that seems to make the argument that without copyright laws artists, writers, and inventors wouldn't make any money and would stop producing new works. This assumes that most of these people only create for financial gain, which isn't true. Most artists never make a dime from their work, they create because they want to. Without copyright laws, we would probably see far fewer cookie-cutter pop bands who are cobbled together by studio executives to make a quick buck. They won't be missed. True artists will continue to make great music even if they had to get a day job. As far as producing new work, many of the most prolific writers, artists, and inventors, lived before copyrights and patents and were quite successful.

I expect that a significant number of gang members/burglars/pickpockets/insert other crime here don't feel guilty about it either, despite knowing its illegal.

Probably true, but copying isn't stealing. For example if I steal your car, you can't drive it anymore. But if I copy it, you can still drive it, right? It doesn't affect you in the slightest.

Now in a slightly different example, if you are trying to sell that car, and I steal it, you can't sell it anymore. But if I copy it, you can still sell it, right? You might say that you lost the sale because I copied it instead of buying it, but that's not necessarily true. The movie and music industries claim they are losing billions to piracy, but they assume that each illegal download is a lost sale. This is not at all accurate. If Microsoft ever manages to make it impossible to pirate Windows, I will simply switch to Linux.

If everyone copies the car you have for sale, then yes, you will have lost the sale to piracy. But are you really going to complain about a world where everyone gets free cars? A reducto ad absurdem, but it brings up a good point: we are moving towards a world where money is obsolete, thanks to the internet and piracy.

Why do we pay for things? We are trading money for labor. You pay someone for the time it takes them to do or make something for you. In the old days, books were all copied by hand, a laborious processes taking days or weeks to copy a single manuscript. Books were incredibly expensive and only the rich could afford them. Then along came the printing press and moveable type and books became available to almost everyone, that is unless the book is protected by copyrights, then the publisher can charge whatever they want for it. This is why the Bible, which costs not much more to produce than the paper it's printed on, is in the hands of every uneducated plow-pusher in the world but God is Not Great - How Religion Poisons Everything, a fantastic book that could free their minds from the tyranny of religion is forever out of reach for the people who need it most.

In the past if you wanted to read you went to the bookstore and bought a book. If you wanted music you went to the record store and bought a record. Same with movies, games, and software. Today these things are all available for free on the internet. They are free because there is no longer any labor costs to make these products, beyond their initial creation. No more monks working their quills into the wee hours by candlelight, no more Gutenberg presses converting trees into romance novels. Just click here to download. People around the world have access to information at an unprecedented level in human history at a fraction of the labor and resource cost so small as to be essentially nil. The fact that you consider this a bad thing is lamentable. That fact that it's illegal is downright insulting to humanity.
 1. Average textbook costs over $100 and they change the questions slightly each year to prevent second-hand sales, forcing students to buy the latest edition every year.
 2. I consider music, movies and books to be an essential part of one's education.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #141 on: April 03, 2012, 05:50:30 AM »
We don't have atheists who believe in absolute good and evil here, so no. Go talk to other theists.

We have at least one atheist who does.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2012, 05:53:59 AM »
We have at least one atheist who does.

If you're talking about Samuelxcs, I don't consider him an atheist. The belief that one's beliefs dictate what is undeniably true for the entire universe is SPAG at its best.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2012, 06:01:10 AM »
If he believes in it, but others don't, then it's not absolute by definition. Unless I have a wrong understanding of absolute morality. My take is that it means everyone should have the same idea of good and evil.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Online One Above All

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Re: In a Godless society
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2012, 06:06:07 AM »
If he believes in it, but others don't, then it's not absolute by definition. Unless I have a wrong understanding of absolute morality. My take is that it means everyone should have the same idea of good and evil.

That's not what it means. Absolute means that it's true for everyone, even if they don't believe in it. Kinda like evolution and the age of the universe.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.