Author Topic: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks  (Read 2715 times)

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Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2012, 12:20:25 AM »
So why again does the universe appear to be expanding? Why do telescopes see light from things much further away than 6000 light years? Why is there background microwave radiation in every direction we look?

How does the universe work?

So why again does the universe appear to be expanding?

Have you looked at "heat death" of the universe?  Also,  a few weeks ago I discussed observations that all nucleotide mutations were deleterious.  Gotta read a lot of stuff besides my posts.  We are evolving to death just like the sun is gonna burn out, just like the universe is gonna burn out.  The Bible explains this, but, if you don't believe it' well then so be it.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2012, 12:25:37 AM »
2 WHOLE scientists? Wow. Got links?

Of course its allowed, if it can be backed up by science.

See, I, and most of us here, DO NOT CARE what the science says, so long as its as accurate as it can be. If science proved your creation story, we would accept it. We have no agenda, save following where the evidence leads.

Can you honestly say the same? Or rather, will you hang on to any thread of hope that your storybook is true? You need not answer me. Just answer yourself.

Then ask yourself why science would purposely try to mislead theists? To what end? Why would sooooo many scientists agree with the age of the universe, with evolution?

Why?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2012, 12:26:51 AM »
jtp56

What you don't seem to be clear on is that we, as atheists, do not look through the world as atheists. Atheism is simply as lack of belief in a god. You, as someone who believes in a god, see the world through the lens provided by your religion. Whether you're a 6,000 year old earth christian or someone a bit more reasonable, you nonetheless cannot take god out of the equation when you look at reality.

When an atheist looks at the same world and the same universe you do, we do not look at it with the thought that there is no god. The subject just doesn't come up. When we learn about some scientific finding or discovery or theory, we don't have to work a predefined belief system into the finding, because we aren't burdened with one. We have no fear of any scientific discovery just because it would make believing in no god harder. Whereas many of the religious I have known have immediately scoffed at scientific findings as impossible because their god would never do such a thing.

If I were to go out into the fossil beds of North Dakota or something with a creationist and discover some new and amazing and old critter, I would be excited. The creationist would be busy trying to figure out how to diss the finding, because his or her beliefs do not allow that fossil to be what science says it is. It can't be that old, it can't be an ancestor of modern animals, etc. A creationist doesn't dare look at the bone structure, the age of the rocks around it, the relationship to other living and extinct critters, the adaptions it made for it's environment. All of these thoughts are taboo because it couldn't have happened that way because the bible implies otherwise.

With absolutely no god in my life, nothing found by science can injure my world. Even new findings that might totally negate what was thought to be the truth yesterday do not damage anything. All new information adds to and refines our knowledge base. None endangers it. Everything is exciting. Every finding is appreciated. All knowledge is welcome.

And we have an added advantage. We can say "I don't know" without feeling like inferior beings. Instead of giving credit to an unseen deity when we don't know what happened before the big bang or how exactly to explain why there if gravity or any of the many other things that are not yet explained fully, we just say we don't know, comfortable that some day we will at least know more.

The same is true of the non-scientific parts of life. When an earthquake hits Japan or a wild fire tears through Arizona, I know that the events are either natural or man-aused, and that the earth shakes and the trees burn, and I don't have to invoke an angry god or a forgiving god or a punishing god in the equation. When I am injured or ill I don't have to take the time to ask why god let such a thing happen to me. When I am doing well and good things are happening, I don't have to stop and take the time to thank the sky guy.

Based on what I know from the religious people in my life, their religious worldview colors all events and redefines the good, the bad and the ugly as something that somehow involved this god guy. Or his minions. Or his son. Or the devil. And so a believer's mind is seldom unaware of the imagined presence of said imagined being. And they think it is true. And it affects them directly.

Being an atheist only means that we don't add unseen complications to our lives, and don't discolor our lives with ancient texts. At least not the silly ones. Aristotle is still cool.

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses is naive. Looking at the world through voluntarily dumb colored ones is useless. And looking at the world without a prejudice against knowledge is bliss.

Added: When all the other astronomers look at the universe (excluding teh two Kiwi's), they don't do so with a built in time limit. Observations and measurements from multiple fields of study all point to a planet and a universe far older than 6,000 years. And there is incredible consistency. Even without leaving the planet. We have drilled out ice cores from Greenland that contain over one million annual layers. We can see those layers being created this year and last year and the year before and drill out and pull out a core that is one million layers deep. And that is just one of thousands of different proofs. But first you have to toss the preconceived tiny world of christianity out the window, because that's the only place it fits.

You say: "Being an atheist only means that we don't add unseen complications to our lives, and don't discolor our lives with ancient texts. At least not the silly ones. Aristotle is still cool." and other stuff.

Don't be ignorant, study ancient texts and the study of ancient texts.  The gospels are more accurate than Aristotle.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2012, 12:31:40 AM »
What's that old saying about pearls and swine?

Jtp, ParkingPlaces put a lot of work into that post.  If you're going to dismiss it like that, apparently without even reading most of it, then what message does that send to everyone else?
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Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2012, 12:34:38 AM »
2 WHOLE scientists? Wow. Got links?

Of course its allowed, if it can be backed up by science.

See, I, and most of us here, DO NOT CARE what the science says, so long as its as accurate as it can be. If science proved your creation story, we would accept it. We have no agenda, save following where the evidence leads.

Can you honestly say the same? Or rather, will you hang on to any thread of hope that your storybook is true? You need not answer me. Just answer yourself.

Then ask yourself why science would purposely try to mislead theists? To what end? Why would sooooo many scientists agree with the age of the universe, with evolution?

Why?

It's more than two scientists.  So you think that in all Christendom there are only two?  I know, I know, if you believe the universe was created (even though the same science and observations support that theory, your an idiot).  You're beliefs will be attacked not your science.  I get it!  Your side rules the day....for now.   
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2012, 12:36:01 AM »
What's that old saying about pearls and swine?

Jtp, ParkingPlaces put a lot of work into that post.  If you're going to dismiss it like that, apparently without even reading most of it, then what message does that send to everyone else?

Newton put a lot of work into Alchemy and he was wrong.  So?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2012, 12:39:08 AM »
Atheism is easy!  Whatever then your dirt.  So?  Why are you here?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline sun_king

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2012, 12:44:56 AM »
Atheism is easy!  Whatever then your dirt.  So?  Why are you here?

To believe in Krishna?

Offline kin hell

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #66 on: March 28, 2012, 12:52:39 AM »
That example is patently ridiculous, I agree.  To try to link the keeping of a chimpanzee as a pet to Darwinism is just silly. 
Well, perhaps not if argued in a sensible manner. As in, people who are too stupid to realize that wild animals are both "wild" and "animals" and treat them like a member of their family, only to have said wild animal rip their fucking face off, that kind of sounds like natural selection at work (perhaps in a violent way, but it so often is anyways). I could buy into that.

But as this author is suggesting it, just ludicrous. It's really sad that people take garbage like that seriously.

I don't see any problem.  According to your world view, your ancestor is slime!  Sorry, primordial ooze.  Why shouldn't your cousins be nice to you?  According to my world view, mine are.

....so how many relatives do you have living there with you on that microscope slide? Sorry, horrorscope elide.

Like minds attract.
They're like minds, but not a brain between them that they can call their own.
In the real world it'd be just another specimen representing the seat of all knowledge.
Pity the seat is a stool.

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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #67 on: March 28, 2012, 12:54:38 AM »
What's that old saying about pearls and swine?

Jtp, ParkingPlaces put a lot of work into that post.  If you're going to dismiss it like that, apparently without even reading most of it, then what message does that send to everyone else?

I gotta digress....Parking Places talks about tsunami's and other "acts of God" destroying man etc. etc.

Why?  Why does God kill people and not heal amputees?    Wow!  Why don't we live in Obama's vision of a Utopia where everyone is in a John Lennon imagined free utopia, free form religion, a universe of no nukes and blah, blah, blah.....and then die and go to dirt?

From my perspective, believing God, like Paul said: Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #68 on: March 28, 2012, 12:55:55 AM »
That example is patently ridiculous, I agree.  To try to link the keeping of a chimpanzee as a pet to Darwinism is just silly. 
Well, perhaps not if argued in a sensible manner. As in, people who are too stupid to realize that wild animals are both "wild" and "animals" and treat them like a member of their family, only to have said wild animal rip their fucking face off, that kind of sounds like natural selection at work (perhaps in a violent way, but it so often is anyways). I could buy into that.

But as this author is suggesting it, just ludicrous. It's really sad that people take garbage like that seriously.

I don't see any problem.  According to your world view, your ancestor is slime!  Sorry, primordial ooze.  Why shouldn't your cousins be nice to you?  According to my world view, mine are.

....so how many relatives do you have living there with you on that microscope slide? Sorry, horrorscope elide.

Like minds attract.
They're like minds, but not a brain between them that they can call their own.
In the real world it'd be just another specimen representing the seat of all knowledge.
Pity the seat is a stool.

WTF are you talking about?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2012, 12:56:42 AM »
Atheism is easy!  Whatever then your dirt.  So?  Why are you here?

To believe in Krishna?

Wow, good for you.   Dig it man!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2012, 01:03:18 AM »
Where are we man?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2012, 01:06:45 AM »
Good night fella's
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #72 on: March 28, 2012, 01:31:03 AM »
Newton put a lot of work into Alchemy and he was wrong.  So?

I gotta digress....Parking Places talks about tsunami's and other "acts of God" destroying man etc. etc.

Why?  Why does God kill people and not heal amputees?    Wow!  Why don't we live in Obama's vision of a Utopia where everyone is in a John Lennon imagined free utopia, free form religion, a universe of no nukes and blah, blah, blah.....and then die and go to dirt?

From my perspective, believing God, like Paul said: Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Yeah, neither of these posts have anything to do with what ParkingPlace actually said in his post, or even with what I said in my post.  Is this some sort of random script?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #73 on: March 28, 2012, 03:39:28 AM »
Atheism is easy!  Whatever then your dirt.  So?  Why are you here?

Because, unlike you, we enjoy life.
Your ilk supposedly goes to heaven after you're dirt. Why are you here?
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #74 on: March 28, 2012, 04:09:11 AM »
From my perspective, believing God, like Paul said: Phil 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

 to die is gain.

to die is gain.

to die is gain.

Fucking death worshiping cult.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline kymer

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #75 on: March 28, 2012, 05:56:23 AM »
Jtp56...

I like you man. You've got life in you, and you've got attitude. Keep it up. And tell me your secret, how have you survived for so long with this lot?

Offline jetson

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #76 on: March 28, 2012, 06:02:01 AM »
Jtp56...

I like you man. You've got life in you, and you've got attitude. Keep it up. And tell me your secret, how have you survived for so long with this lot?

My bold.  This is trolling.

You have got to be kidding, right?
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 06:28:17 AM by jetson »

Offline kymer

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #77 on: March 28, 2012, 06:34:22 AM »
Mod edit:  Off-topic deleted.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 06:36:25 AM by jetson »

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #78 on: March 28, 2012, 08:00:45 AM »
jtp56 has "survived so long" because he swoops in, scatterguns some posts (and occasionally responds to them) and then vanishes again.  But his posts are very often little more than generic diatribes about his Christian view on that topic, and not even very good ones at that.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #79 on: March 28, 2012, 08:54:55 AM »
Jtp why are your religious beliefs promoted on the back of dishonest insinuation of people not like yourself or you imagine them to be not like yourself and dismissal through personal incredulty?

Why should anyone take you seriously when you do so?

Huh?  What are you talking about?  How are people not like me?  I don't promote my "religious beliefs" on the back of anyone!  Opps, sorry, "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—"

You promote your religious belief on the pretense of a dichotomy that assumes that the only valid positions are the ones you've constructed piece meal out of the silly strawmen about what you believe of non-believers.  You treat the subject as if it were only atheist vs christians, as if it were only atheistic-evolution vs creationist-christianity, and include other hateful dismissive qualifications that do not but reject from personal incredulity the imagined positions of others.

Not a single statement you've made about evolution has yet to have anything to do with evolution and the same goes with atheism.

So why do your religious beliefs motivate you to lie so frequently and openly?

Why would or should anyone take you seriously after watching you do so?

What does evolution have to do with atheism?

What is evolution?

What does evolution have to do with christianity?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #80 on: March 28, 2012, 08:56:06 AM »
Speaking of jtp, this latest collection of posts is no better than usual.  He swooped in and started posting about atheist world views (derogatorily, for example, referring to a "common ancestor" as slime), without even reading the opening post so he could see what it was about.  This ignorance was betrayed later on when he asked what pamphlet Omen was talking about.  More of the same till he started talking about the Big Bang in response to another poster.  His comments were patently ridiculous, informed by his religious belief, rather than any real understanding of the science involved.  Here's some examples of his posts on this subject followed by my rebuttals of those posts (which he'll likely not respond to and certainly not admit he could possibly be wrong about).

Now we get down to brass tacks!  My opinion, view, experiences, is that the universe operates using the same physics (based on Einstein, Newton, etc.)  in our immediate proximity.  That the BBT and that non-BBT scientists claim are only theories.  That all agree that the physics that we can observe, measure, replicate (sound like the scientific method to anyone?) were different in order to support any theory beyond a 6000 year old universe.  But, I guess dark matter and dark energy (more faith there than a creator) could be plausible.
His implication here is that outside of 6,000 light-years, physics operates under different rules, even though 6,000 light-years is less than a tenth the diameter of the Milky Way.  In other words, most of our galaxy is outside this 6,000-year "bubble" yet from every observation we've made, it operates under the same physical laws as our purely-local part of the galaxy.  He also makes a fairly common snide comment about science needing more faith than a creator.

There are two physicists (New Zealand and Israel) that believe contrary to Hubble who stated: "that we cannot let the universe be less than 6000 years old".  These physicists state that anything observed (scientifically, based on actual observations) outside our relatively calm 6000 light year bubble we are in (aka: we are close to the center of the universe) is an observation of creation or the BBT at 6000 years old.  This is totally contrary to Hubble and the primary axiom and the BBT.  I know, I know, this is not allowed.
First off, I suspect quote mining from jtp about Hubble (assuming it's not just made up of whole cloth), since he only quoted a tiny little snippet and didn't even cite his source.  Second, his statement about these so-called physicists shows that those scientists are suspiciously ignorant about astronomy.  If those "physicists" truly believe the absurdity that there is a 6,000 light-year "bubble" of relatively calm conditions around us, even though the diameter of the Milky Way alone is almost 100,000 light-years, then I must question their credentials.  There is no way a reputable physicist would make such a fundamental error about distances.  And that also contradicts other observations we've made, such as Andromeda (at an approximate distance of 2.5 million light-years) gradually approaching us as evidenced by its blueshift.  In other words, they're off by at least three orders of magnitude for how wide the relative bubble of calm space must be.

So why again does the universe appear to be expanding?

Have you looked at "heat death" of the universe?  Also,  a few weeks ago I discussed observations that all nucleotide mutations were deleterious.  Gotta read a lot of stuff besides my posts.  We are evolving to death just like the sun is gonna burn out, just like the universe is gonna burn out.  The Bible explains this, but, if you don't believe it' well then so be it.
Here, he makes an unsupported claim about the heat death of the universe, even though this is currently expected to be at least a trillion years from now (by comparison, the whole lifetime of the universe up until now is barely 1% of that figure), and attempts to compare it to the provably false claim that nucleotide mutations are all deleterious.  We can demonstrate that some nucleotide mutations are in fact beneficial, and most are neutral (have no effect).  Also, I would be very interested to see where, exactly, the Bible explains that we are evolving to death, that the sun will burn out, that the universe will burn out, and also what time-scale it suggests for this.

It's more than two scientists.  So you think that in all Christendom there are only two?  I know, I know, if you believe the universe was created (even though the same science and observations support that theory, your an idiot).  You're beliefs will be attacked not your science.  I get it!  Your side rules the day....for now.
He claims it's more than two scientists, even though he didn't see fit to give us actual names on the "physicists" he cited before.  He also makes a strawman accusation, that Dante thinks there are only two Christians who are scientists, which Dante never said.  As for me, I don't think those two people he cited are actual scientists.  There are Christian scientists, but they're smart enough not to make such a basic and blatant mistake about astronomical distances.  They also know better than to try to twist the evidence to fit their beliefs, as jtp so clearly does.

Clearly, jtp fails once again at science.  But since he's only interested in whatever lets him maintain his pet beliefs, I doubt he'll really care.  Doesn't matter how often his ideas are shown to be wrong, as long as he believes in them.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #81 on: March 28, 2012, 09:05:43 AM »
JTP isn't here to argue in support of his beliefs to an audience of people who do not believe, he is instead rationalizing his beliefs to himself using uninformative self serving and pejorative rhetoric.  As is the case with the pamphlet/booklet put out by the christian group in this OP.  The target audience has nothing to do with a person who doesn't believe, because everything that it claims to address is patently at odds with what a non-believer would state or claim and none of it is even applied rationally to the conclusions it draws.  Instead, each example we can find is one where a grossly exaggerated strawman is constructed for the purpose of an internal rationale to knock it down, mostly through personal incredulity ( even if the strawman they construct is not properly argued against ).
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Offline velkyn

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #82 on: March 28, 2012, 09:39:51 AM »
True Jetson....My early life form was Adam, yours was primordial ooze.  So why can't we all just get along?

well, I don't like liars or hypocrites, jtp.  That's why we can't get along.   You have yet to provide any evidence supporting your myths.  just like all theists.   Let's see, the True Reason people claimed that they were going to come to the rally.  As far as I can tell, they didn't.  I was there looking for them.  They asked their flock for money to print this book that was to show us atheists just how wrong we were.  They never did and now have it available for purchase.  I wonder, did they get no money?  Did they get some and athen renege on their promise?  I'm sure that they prayed very hard for the atheists rally to fail and to get money for this project which seems to be two instances of failure of prayer by them.  I'm sure they won't even be honest enough to admit that. 

« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 09:43:00 AM by velkyn »
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Offline Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #83 on: March 28, 2012, 09:47:46 AM »
2 WHOLE scientists? Wow. Got links?

It's more than two scientists.  So you think that in all Christendom there are only two?

No, I'm sure there are more than 2 who are xians. But you said..

There are two physicists (New Zealand and Israel) that believe contrary to Hubble who stated: <snip>

So who are these 2 physicists? Got links?

And why aren't their theories the ones most of science agrees on?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #84 on: March 28, 2012, 11:36:57 AM »
What's that old saying about pearls and swine?

Jtp, ParkingPlaces put a lot of work into that post.  If you're going to dismiss it like that, apparently without even reading most of it, then what message does that send to everyone else?

Newton put a lot of work into Alchemy and he was wrong.  So?

Yep, because there was no science to support it. Not because there was no religion to support it.

Made this short for your benefit.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline velkyn

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #85 on: March 28, 2012, 12:14:40 PM »
I got an email from the "editor" of this book, Tom Gilson, who was indigant that I dared to say that I didn't see his group at the rally (whoop-de-do, I didn't at all)  and questioned why I had a problem with them them selling their supposedly wonderful and uncontestable book.    ;D         
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Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #86 on: March 28, 2012, 12:15:41 PM »
I got an email from the "editor" of this book, Tom Gilson, who was indigant that I dared to say that I didn't see his group at the rally (whoop-de-do, I didn't at all)  and questioned why I had a problem with them them selling their supposedly wonderful and uncontestable book.    ;D       

This email was generated from exposure of being posted on this forum?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me