Author Topic: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks  (Read 3272 times)

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Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2012, 10:46:27 PM »
Give me an example where you have: "When I defend human rights, I'm often defending those human rights from the value system of a christian"?

Who is the primary opponent to providing homosexuals equal rights and protections under the law? Christians.

Who is the primary opponent to questions of whether or not women own and can treat their bodies as they wish? Christians.

Who is the primary opponent to science education?  Christians.

Who is the primary opponent to christians receiving special rights in local, state, and federal government? Christians.

I make these statements with the caveat that many believers ( even christians ) often defend these issues alongside me, but almost across the board.. the primary opponent in terms of majority are christians and their reasoning is purely religious or self serving to christianity.

Dozens of christian organizations exist for the singular purpose of promoting denying non-christians or those perceived as not being christian enough equal rights; such as NOM, Focus on the Family, The Discovery Institute, etc  They want special access to other people's childrens in public schools, to deny non-christians rights ( or those they imagine to be non-christian ), they want special access to local government to promote their religious beliefs over the minority, and want special laws that favor christian ideology over non-christians.

I can't find the same example with secular civil rights groups, not a single one promotes or defends a law that would do anything except defend equal rights for everyone.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2012, 10:48:53 PM »

So do you believe you are absolutely right?  Do you have doubts in your......I guess I don't know what you believe.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22035.msg491486.html#msg491486

I answered that here.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2012, 10:49:51 PM »
I kind of disagree.  The public school system teaches your views on all those subjects.  The government is trying to eliminate private schools or home schooling that believes in freedom of.......
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2012, 10:53:58 PM »
I think that jtp has not noticed that humans kill other humans, which proves what?

The chimp must be human, because it can kill another human.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2012, 10:56:10 PM »

So do you believe you are absolutely right?  Do you have doubts in your......I guess I don't know what you believe.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22035.msg491486.html#msg491486

I answered that here.

I agree.....You're not absolutely right.  Neither am I. That's why I believe in someone who is. God! Who is the Word.  I don't understand why you guys get your panties in a wad about God being Truth.  Why Jesus is the Truth!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2012, 10:56:55 PM »
I kind of disagree.  The public school system teaches your views on all those subjects.

Public education is not a 'view' of atheism, that is an exaggerated and hyperbolic insinuation that you're making.  Exactly the kind of psychotic bogey man you're promoting, you're position is so deranged that you lack even the capacity to identify where reality contradicts your position ( such as when believers exist that defend education alongside non-believers ). 

Quote
The government is trying to eliminate private schools or home schooling that believes in freedom of

There is not a single law on the books that prevents private schools and only a few laws on the books ( state by state ) that require home education to be standardised.  Yep, you heard me right.. in some states you can teach your child to be a fucking idiot.

I'm all for christians teaching their kids at home, but they can't complain when they don't get accepted into universities for not having proper educational backgrounds.  As was the case when a private christian school in CA tried getting students into a university who didn't even possess a grade-school equivalent level understanding of science.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2012, 10:57:22 PM »
There are no absolutes is an absolute.

Eh? I googled that. It's philosophy, not science. Science explores and exploits; only temporarily has it given up on finding an absolute, because the truth is so hidden.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2012, 10:57:33 PM »
I think that jtp has not noticed that humans kill other humans, which proves what?

The chimp must be human, because it can kill another human.

I thought we were on the top of the evolutionary rung?  My bad, dolphins are.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2012, 10:59:13 PM »
  I don't understand why you guys get your panties in a wad about God being Truth. 

God would be the truth, if we could find her, and she was committed to telling us the truth. Only, the evidence points to nobody having found her, because they don't know the truth.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2012, 10:59:21 PM »
I agree.....You're not absolutely right.

The above statement is contradicted by this:

Quote
I believe in someone who is. God! Who is the Word.

You're making a tautological statement and trying to hide it with semantics.  It is the same as saying,"I don't know absolute truth I just know absolute truth."
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2012, 11:00:08 PM »
I thought we were on the top of the evolutionary rung?  My bad, dolphins are.

Moron. Nobody cares who is on any rung.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2012, 11:01:26 PM »

I thought we were on the top of the evolutionary rung?  My bad, dolphins are.

Evolution is not an ideology, it is a field of scientific research.  It does not inform human ethics, regardless of a belief or non-belief in a god.  Your description is a hateful attempt at demagoguery.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Azdgari

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2012, 11:03:12 PM »
What  pamphlet are you talking about?

Thanks, jtp.  I got a good chuckle out of that one.  Guy comes into the thread, posts a bunch of tripe...and doesn't realize what the thread was about in the first place.  Classic!  ;D

Give me a break!  How many Christians are here vs. non-Christians? I didn't get the memo.

Dude, you didn't read what the thread was about before posting.  What the hell does that have to do with the Christian-to-non-Christian ratio of the forum, or of the thread?  Does an abundance of non-Christians make it harder to read what the opening post says?
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Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2012, 11:03:54 PM »
I kind of disagree.  The public school system teaches your views on all those subjects.

Public education is not a 'view' of atheism, that is an exaggerated and hyperbolic insinuation that you're making.  Exactly the kind of psychotic bogey man you're promoting, you're position is so deranged that you lack even the capacity to identify where reality contradicts your position ( such as when believers exist that defend education alongside non-believers ). 

Quote
The government is trying to eliminate private schools or home schooling that believes in freedom of

There is not a single law on the books that prevents private schools and only a few laws on the books ( state by state ) that require home education to be standardised.  Yep, you heard me right.. in some states you can teach your child to be a fucking idiot.

I'm all for christians teaching their kids at home, but they can't complain when they don't get accepted into universities for not having proper educational backgrounds.  As was the case when a private christian school in CA tried getting students into a university who didn't even possess a grade-school equivalent level understanding of science.

OK then!!  Why not expose all chillen to all world views?  Islam, Christianity, Darwin, (The primary axiom [see my other posts]), Judaism, Evolution ("science"), Hinduism, etc., etc., etc., ????  You guys are the champions of open mindedness aren't you? 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2012, 11:04:20 PM »
You want to believe your gods are the truth so you can think you know the truth. It doesn't get much more intellectually dishonest than that.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2012, 11:06:24 PM »
You want to believe your gods are the truth so you can think you know the truth. It doesn't get much more intellectually dishonest than that.

You want to believe that you know the truth.  It doesn't get much more intellectually dishonest than that.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2012, 11:09:09 PM »
Nope, bzzt, wrong again. I want to learn how the universe works.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2012, 11:10:33 PM »
So who here knows the truth?  Dante?  Do you know better than Omen?  Omen, do you know better than Azdgari, or do you know better than Add Homonym?  Wait a minute,  I know, I know who knows the truth better than you guys, its.......(put your superior intellect here)
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2012, 11:12:26 PM »
Nope, bzzt, wrong again. I want to learn how the universe works.

You're kidding me!?  We know how the universe works.  We know how to transplant hearts.  Even though your side thinks Cheney shouldn't have gotten one.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Omen

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2012, 11:16:29 PM »
Jtp why are your religious beliefs promoted on the back of dishonest insinuation of people not like yourself or you imagine them to be not like yourself and dismissal through personal incredulty?

Why should anyone take you seriously when you do so?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Online Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2012, 11:18:50 PM »
So how does the universe work? Why is it expanding? What is dark matter?

And, what is my side, you judgemental fuckhead?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2012, 11:19:26 PM »

I thought we were on the top of the evolutionary rung?  My bad, dolphins are.

Evolution is not an ideology, it is a field of scientific research.  It does not inform human ethics, regardless of a belief or non-belief in a god.  Your description is a hateful attempt at demagoguery.

My description is not a "hateful" attempt at demagoguery!  I'll discuss science (read my other posts).  Your descriptions of a creationist world view is hateful.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2012, 11:32:03 PM »
So how does the universe work? Why is it expanding? What is dark matter?

And, what is my side, you judgemental fuckhead?

I say "your side" meaning being a non-believer in Christ.  It shouldn't be offensive, it's the majority view on this website.  Why are you offended?  You called me a "fuckhead" and I'm not offended; I expect it.  Did I call you a "fuckhead"?

Now we get down to brass tacks!  My opinion, view, experiences, is that the universe operates using the same physics (based on Einstein, Newton, etc.)  in our immediate proximity.  That the BBT and that non-BBT scientists claim are only theories.  That all agree that the physics that we can observe, measure, replicate (sound like the scientific method to anyone?) were different in order to support any theory beyond a 6000 year old universe.  But, I guess dark matter and dark energy (more faith there than a creator) could be plausible.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #52 on: March 27, 2012, 11:36:02 PM »
No matter what your world view you'll love this....
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2012, 11:53:40 PM »
Jtp why are your religious beliefs promoted on the back of dishonest insinuation of people not like yourself or you imagine them to be not like yourself and dismissal through personal incredulty?

Why should anyone take you seriously when you do so?

Huh?  What are you talking about?  How are people not like me?  I don't promote my "religious beliefs" on the back of anyone!  Opps, sorry, "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—"

It ain't easy!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Dante

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2012, 12:02:42 AM »
So why again does the universe appear to be expanding? Why do telescopes see light from things much further away than 6000 light years? Why is there background microwave radiation in every direction we look?

How does the universe work?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2012, 12:02:49 AM »
There are no absolutes is an absolute.

Eh? I googled that. It's philosophy, not science. Science explores and exploits; only temporarily has it given up on finding an absolute, because the truth is so hidden.

Science started out and is a philosophy.  Galileo, Newton, etc. thought that it should be.... observable, replicable, and if there was any instance where it was proven false, it was false....

So....?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2012, 12:11:05 AM »
So why again does the universe appear to be expanding? Why do telescopes see light from things much further away than 6000 light years? Why is there background microwave radiation in every direction we look?

How does the universe work?

There are two physicists (New Zealand and Israel) that believe contrary to Hubble who stated: "that we cannot let the universe be less than 6000 years old".  These physicists state that anything observed (scientifically, based on actual observations) outside our relatively calm 6000 light year bubble we are in (aka: we are close to the center of the universe) is an observation of creation or the BBT at 6000 years old.  This is totally contrary to Hubble and the primary axiom and the BBT.  I know, I know, this is not allowed.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: that booklet that was promised by the True Reason folks
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2012, 12:17:33 AM »
jtp56

What you don't seem to be clear on is that we, as atheists, do not look through the world as atheists. Atheism is simply as lack of belief in a god. You, as someone who believes in a god, see the world through the lens provided by your religion. Whether you're a 6,000 year old earth christian or someone a bit more reasonable, you nonetheless cannot take god out of the equation when you look at reality.

When an atheist looks at the same world and the same universe you do, we do not look at it with the thought that there is no god. The subject just doesn't come up. When we learn about some scientific finding or discovery or theory, we don't have to work a predefined belief system into the finding, because we aren't burdened with one. We have no fear of any scientific discovery just because it would make believing in no god harder. Whereas many of the religious I have known have immediately scoffed at scientific findings as impossible because their god would never do such a thing.

If I were to go out into the fossil beds of North Dakota or something with a creationist and discover some new and amazing and old critter, I would be excited. The creationist would be busy trying to figure out how to diss the finding, because his or her beliefs do not allow that fossil to be what science says it is. It can't be that old, it can't be an ancestor of modern animals, etc. A creationist doesn't dare look at the bone structure, the age of the rocks around it, the relationship to other living and extinct critters, the adaptions it made for it's environment. All of these thoughts are taboo because it couldn't have happened that way because the bible implies otherwise.

With absolutely no god in my life, nothing found by science can injure my world. Even new findings that might totally negate what was thought to be the truth yesterday do not damage anything. All new information adds to and refines our knowledge base. None endangers it. Everything is exciting. Every finding is appreciated. All knowledge is welcome.

And we have an added advantage. We can say "I don't know" without feeling like inferior beings. Instead of giving credit to an unseen deity when we don't know what happened before the big bang or how exactly to explain why there if gravity or any of the many other things that are not yet explained fully, we just say we don't know, comfortable that some day we will at least know more.

The same is true of the non-scientific parts of life. When an earthquake hits Japan or a wild fire tears through Arizona, I know that the events are either natural or man-aused, and that the earth shakes and the trees burn, and I don't have to invoke an angry god or a forgiving god or a punishing god in the equation. When I am injured or ill I don't have to take the time to ask why god let such a thing happen to me. When I am doing well and good things are happening, I don't have to stop and take the time to thank the sky guy.

Based on what I know from the religious people in my life, their religious worldview colors all events and redefines the good, the bad and the ugly as something that somehow involved this god guy. Or his minions. Or his son. Or the devil. And so a believer's mind is seldom unaware of the imagined presence of said imagined being. And they think it is true. And it affects them directly.

Being an atheist only means that we don't add unseen complications to our lives, and don't discolor our lives with ancient texts. At least not the silly ones. Aristotle is still cool.

Looking at the world through rose colored glasses is naive. Looking at the world through voluntarily dumb colored ones is useless. And looking at the world without a prejudice against knowledge is bliss.

Added: When all the other astronomers look at the universe (excluding teh two Kiwi's), they don't do so with a built in time limit. Observations and measurements from multiple fields of study all point to a planet and a universe far older than 6,000 years. And there is incredible consistency. Even without leaving the planet. We have drilled out ice cores from Greenland that contain over one million annual layers. We can see those layers being created this year and last year and the year before and drill out and pull out a core that is one million layers deep. And that is just one of thousands of different proofs. But first you have to toss the preconceived tiny world of christianity out the window, because that's the only place it fits.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!