Trayvon Martin

[shnozzola]

I remember my nephew telling me about his friend at college, who said he had just received his first DWB from the police.  What was that?  Driving While Black.

I thought I remembered seeing a thread here about Trayvon Martin, but could not find it.  Yesterday Jesse Washington (AP) had this article about the talk:
http://apnews.myway.com//article/20120324/D9TMVMU00.html

I’ve heard that African American mothers always have “the talk” with their sons.  It is a shame that American (any) society is at that point still.  The last couple sentences of Jesse's story are telling.

[Frank]

I've been reading about this for the last few days on the LA Times site. It's just another gun killing brought about by your insane gun laws. If you want to see less gun murders it's simple, stop people buying guns and confiscate the ones they already have. If you can't do this then move along because there's nothing to see that hasn't been seen before and will certainly be seen again.

[Nick]

I noticed today that the machine is at work to paint a pic of the kid so there can't be a clear pic of what happened.  Getting a few days out of school turned out to be a death sentence for Trayvon.

[Brakeman]

Aside from the information in the story, I notice the news pushing mug shots of the Latino, but only child age pictures of Trevor with all references to him as the "victim". All the pictures that I have seen are of a kid about 14 - 15 years old. Not a Sr in high school age.  I would like to see a contemporary photo of Trevor so as to fairly judge his physical intimidation. We are told the back ground of the shooter, but no background of the boy. Had he been in trouble before? What is his criminal record? If the Watchman is telling the truth and the injuries are corroborated by the police, then the question becomes how much of an attack does one have to suffer before they can make it stop through the use of a firearm. If a 17yr old kid has a rage issue and attacks people within their own neighborhood, (Not claiming this is the case simply that it is purported to be), how many licks does one have to take? Two punches to the stomach and then a broken nose? a kick to the groin and a head ponding into the sidewalk? Is it then ok to shoot?

Would the protesters still be enraged if the man had only wounded the 17 yr old? What if he tried to hold him at bay at gun point yet the kid still attacked again, would that change any views?

[Chronos]

Mr Zimmerman has a lot of explaining to do. It's very clear that Zimmerman pursued Martin even when directed by police to not pursue. Zimmerman was under no threat of violence until he disobeyed a police directive. If Zimmerman had not pursued Martin, there is nothing to suggest that Martin would have died or even been injured that day. He possessed no weapon and did nothing wrong.

Zimmerman assaulted Martin by chasing him, and clearly the phone calls Martin made to his girlfriend revealed that Martin was in fear of some form of violence. If Zimmerman first touched Martin, then Zimmerman battered Martin, as well as assaulted him. Assaulting someone while in possession of a weapon can be considered aggravated assault. In this case, the weapon Zimmerman carried actually discharged and killed Martin -- ergo, aggravated assault. Even if Zimmerman never intended to kill Martin, it appears that Zimmerman should be charged with voluntary manslaughter. He made use of a weapon that injured/killed another that he was positively pursuing.

It's quite apparent that at some point either Zimmerman caught up with Martin or Martin "stood his ground" in his own defense, but even with the "stand your ground" claim, Martin was already in some form of avoidance (retreat) from Zimmerman.


Florida has a lot to explain in how it investigates and prosecutes crime. If you are black and live in Florida, this case should serve as a strong signal to get the hell out of Florida. If Florida can't arrest George Zimmerman for the evidence they already have, then they can't arrest anybody. Don't like your neighbor? Just stand your ground and shoot him! Don't like the people passing by on your street? Just chase after them on the street and shoot them!

This "stand your ground" law upturns centuries of common law ... and common sense.

[magicmiles]

What do you make of Obama's public comments? Is it helpful to state that if he had a son he would look like Martin?

Seems to me any comments the head of state makes regarding an on-going police investigation should be confined to generally expressing sympathy for those suffering loss and a wish to see justice brought about.

[Chronos]

Aside from the information in the story, I notice the news pushing mug shots of the Latino, but only child age pictures of Trevor with all references to him as the "victim". All the pictures that I have seen are of a kid about 14 - 15 years old. Not a Sr in high school age.  I would like to see a contemporary photo of Trevor so as to fairly judge his physical intimidation. We are told the back ground of the shooter, but no background of the boy. Had he been in trouble before? What is his criminal record? If the Watchman is telling the truth and the injuries are corroborated by the police, then the question becomes how much of an attack does one have to suffer before they can make it stop through the use of a firearm. If a 17yr old kid has a rage issue and attacks people within their own neighborhood, (Not claiming this is the case simply that it is purported to be), how many licks does one have to take? Two punches to the stomach and then a broken nose? a kick to the groin and a head ponding into the sidewalk? Is it then ok to shoot?

Would the protesters still be enraged if the man had only wounded the 17 yr old? What if he tried to hold him at bay at gun point yet the kid still attacked again, would that change any views?

What if Martin were 6'5" tall and weighed 300lbs? How does that make a difference? Zimmerman doesn't deny that he pursued Martin. Zimmerman never said that Martin pursued him.

Martin was suspended from school because of "traces of marijuana in a baggie in his book bag". How is that relevant? There was were no drugs found on him at the scene of the shooting. If he had a prior criminal record, I'm sure that would have been splayed all over the news. I haven't heard of any, but still, Martin was pursued by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman is claiming some sort of self defense for .... having pursued Martin.   ??   There doesn't seem to be anything in this story that makes Zimmerman's behavior look good and proper. If there were any aspects, why wouldn't he be sharing them? Zimmerman is claiming that Martin attacked him, but if you were being pursued by somebody you tried to avoid but who backtracked to catch you anyway, wouldn't you be in attack mode?

[Brakeman]

Zimmerman assaulted Martin by chasing him, and clearly the phone calls Martin made to his girlfriend revealed that Martin was in fear of some form of violence. If Zimmerman first touched Martin, then Zimmerman battered Martin, as well as assaulted him.

Pretty biased since you have no basis to claim an "assault" by someone simply following and watching? Even chasing someone is not an assault. All the other facts of the case are very much in dispute.

If I had been in Trevor's shoes, I would not be dead no matter how black I was. I would have simply stopped and explained to Zimmerman how his fears are unwarranted and that I was not a threat. Of course I would not have been in the situation because I would not have violated my school's rules and be on a 10 day expulsion either. 

The media is trying their damnedest to make a clansman out of Zimmerman just to rile up the masses.

[Brakeman]

Zimmerman is claiming that Martin attacked him, but if you were being pursued by somebody you tried to avoid but who backtracked to catch you anyway, wouldn't you be in attack mode?

No, I wouldn't be. There is no reason for Trevor to have suspected Zimmerman as anything but a concerned neighbor. If there is a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood, it's usually because there needs to be one due to crime threats in the neighborhood. People don't really do that often just for the giggles. It should have been obvious to him that the neighbors would wonder what a hooded individual was doing wandering the neighborhood. It should have been a question that he was ready to answer without attacks of any kind. But 17 yr old kids are really stupid, all colors.

[Timo]

I would like to see a contemporary photo of Trevor so as to fairly judge his physical intimidation. We are told the back ground of the shooter, but no background of the boy. Had he been in trouble before? What is his criminal record? If the Watchman is telling the truth and the injuries are corroborated by the police, then the question becomes how much of an attack does one have to suffer before they can make it stop through the use of a firearm. If a 17yr old kid has a rage issue and attacks people within their own neighborhood, (Not claiming this is the case simply that it is purported to be), how many licks does one have to take? Two punches to the stomach and then a broken nose? a kick to the groin and a head ponding into the sidewalk? Is it then ok to shoot?

As someone who, at age 17, had a police record and probably looked scary in the right light, I find this kind of thinking disgusting.  What you seem to be saying is that a man should have had the right to stalk and intimidate me, perhaps even provoke a confrontation, shoot me the second I try to defend myself, and then claim self defense without so much as a proper investigation.  Man, fuck that.

If I had been in Trevor's shoes, I would not be dead no matter how black I was. I would have simply stopped and explained to Zimmerman how his fears are unwarranted and that I was not a threat. Of course I would not have been in the situation because I would not have violated my school's rules and be on a 10 day expulsion either.

Please.

As someone who has been a young black kid, a young black male at that, I wouldn't expect any other young black male to respond to someone following them in a vehicle and then pursuing them on foot with anything other than a fight or flight response.  I honestly have no idea what world you think we're living in where you think that anyone, especially a young person, is going to stop and attempt to start a rational conversation after being stalked on a rainy night for no apparent reason.

And fuck that "I would not have violated my school's rules" shit.  You sound like the type of dude that would chime in that he wouldn't have got drunk at that party or wore that skirt when he hears about some college girl that got raped.

There is no reason for Trevor to have suspected Zimmerman as anything but a concerned neighbor.

Dude, where do you live?  This is a black kid, in the South, being followed by a white dude in a truck.  Really?  He's supposed to think concerned neighbor?  Have you ever had someone follow you in a car?

[Timo]

I take it all back.

Looking at this picture, I can see why the concerned neighbor, upon seeing such a suspicious character in his midst, would have had no choice but to follow him and alert the authorities.

[Mr. Blackwell]

Looking at this picture, I can see why the concerned neighbor, upon seeing such a suspicious character in his midst, would have had no choice but to follow him and alert the authorities.

Shit nigga! I'm gonna have nightmares now....damn!

Seriously though, I would expect someone on the neighborhood watch to know who his neighbors are and if their kids are staying with them when they normally don't. If you don't know who your neighbors are then you don't need to be in the position Zimmerman was in. Especially in a gated community.

Further, at the age of 17 I was 6 ft tall 200lbs with long hair and a full beard...there is a picture on this forum somewhere of me around that time. Regardless of what I looked like, I would have been absolutely frickin terrified if someone whom I didn't know was following me. Full grown adult males can be very intimidating to younger males (size does not matter), whether they mean to or not. That fear is at least tripled when the person following you is of a different race.

It does not salvage Zimmerman's motives, when he is on record after 911 dispatch told him not to follow, by saying "but they always get away!"

Zimmerman may not be full blown racist but he is still prejudiced against young black males. Treyvon died because of that prejudice...and local authorities took his side...

No matter how you slice it, it's just a fucking shame.




Edit to add that is was a gated community

[Samothec]

Zimmerman's story is confusing at best: he's supposedly just doing his duty as neighborhood watch but he's carrying a gun, following a "suspect" (suspect in what? a crime that happened the previous week supposedly), and not knowing where he was in his own neighborhood.

This was handled, heck, is being handled very badly by the police.

First the fight took place in someone's yard but she was too scared to look then it's out on the sidewalk by the street and a different neighbor who doesn't want to be identified, well, he supports Zimmerman? The shooter is justifed because he got bloodied up but he doesn't go to the hospital? The multiple versions of what happened only say to me that what little truth there is in the various accounts is getting more mangled.

That the teen had a minute bit of marijuana and got suspended was supposedly accidentally leaked? Yeah, right. But Zimmerman's history of minor violence seems to be being downplayed. This situation says to me that Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter at least, if not murder but he will probably get away with it.

This is disgraceful. And getting worse since the New Black Panthers (IIRC) have put out a bounty on Zimmerman of $10,000.

[HAL]

Theoretical question:

You have two people A & B.

A starts a fight with B (B was minding his own business).

A starts getting his ass kicked badly in the fight (remember A started the fight for no apparent reason)

A feels he may now be killed by B.

Can A, at this point (he's losing the fight) use deadly force in self defense?

[pianodwarf]

Theoretical question:

You have two people A & B.

A starts a fight with B (B was minding his own business).

A starts getting his ass kicked badly in the fight (remember A started the fight for no apparent reason)

A feels he may now be killed by B.

Can A, at this point (he's losing the fight) use deadly force in self defense?

In American jurisprudence, at least, it's usually not considered self-defense if you started the fight, although depending on the circumstances, A might be able to argue that B overreacted to A's attack.  (Good luck with that, though.)

[Quesi]

Those of us who enjoy white privilege rarely take the time to think about it.  We take our privileges for granted. 

As a middle aged white woman, I know for a fact that if I were walking in that neighborhood wearing a hoodie in the rain, I would NOT look suspicious.  If I felt that I was being followed by a strange man in a suburban neighborhood, I would not hesitate to knock on the closest door.  And if I knocked on stranger’s door and said that I thought I was being followed by a man, I am pretty sure I would be invited inside by those strangers.  I would probably be invited in if the host family were white or black or Latino or Asian.  If the family were speaking another language amongst themselves, chances are I could knock out a few phrases in that language, which would immediately endear me to the family.  If the host family spoke Spanish, and I started rattling off fluent Spanish with occasional syntax errors, I would be held in very high esteem by my hosts.  Latinos who speak fluent English with occasionally flawed syntax are dumb.  White people who speak fluent Spanish with occasionally flawed syntax are really smart and nice and wonderful.   That is just one little part of white privilege. 

Another part of privilege combines both class and race.  I am accustomed to having doors opened for me.  I can walk into a fancy hotel lobby and ask where the bathroom is, and the doorman will courteously direct me to the bathroom.  I bet Trayvon could not walk into a fancy hotel and be directed to the bathroom.  And on the other end of the spectrum, I can be walking through a neighborhood that perhaps doesn’t see many white women walking alone at night.  But I am well-traveled and confidant, and comfortable in a wide range of environments.  I would approach the group of young people hanging on the street corner, introduce myself (now, at this age, I get to behave like someone’s mom – I used different strategies when I was younger) and explain my purpose for being in the neighborhood, and *ask* the scariest, thugiest  looking guys on the street if THEY think it is safe for me to travel from point A to point B. Nine times out of ten, the scariest looking guys on the street corner will give me an escort.  If I treat people with respect, I usually get respect in return. 

I enjoy privileges that Trayvon did not enjoy. And not privileges that I have earned. 

[Frank]

If I had been in Trevor's shoes, I would not be dead no matter how black I was. I would have simply stopped and explained to Zimmerman how his fears are unwarranted and that I was not a threat. Of course I would not have been in the situation because I would not have violated my school's rules and be on a 10 day expulsion either. 

You're a mind reader then? You just know that this strange guy (whose name you also apparently also know) following you on this dark rainy night, possibly carying a gun has "fears" that you are up to no good so you have the overwhelming urge to stop and calm his fears and of course he'll simply believe you and won't shoot you dead in the street.

I wish you the best of luck should you find yourself in the above situation.

[screwtape]

I would have simply stopped and explained to Zimmerman ...

I think you are talking out your ass.  I think if Trayvon had stopped, Zimmerman still would have shot him because he would have perceived it to be a threat.  I think that kid was screwed no matter what.  And the reason he was screwed was because Zimmerman is a prejudice, gun toting asshole and Florida has horrible gun laws that protect him and he probably knew it.

the law is a huge problem.
http://sayitaintsoalready.com/2012/03/22/stand-your-ground-law-in-florida-results-in-skyrocketing-rate-of-homicides/
http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/mar/26/christopher-l-smith/sen-chris-smith-claimed-deaths-due-self-defense-fl/

I've heard stories about gang members killing other gang members and not being prosecuted because of this law.  I heard on the radio about a guy who got in an argument, went home, got his gun, came back, resumed the argument and shot the other guy. The police could do nothing.

[Dante]

Theoretical question:

You have two people A & B.

A starts a fight with B (B was minding his own business).

A starts getting his ass kicked badly in the fight (remember A started the fight for no apparent reason)

A feels he may now be killed by B.

Can A, at this point (he's losing the fight) use deadly force in self defense?

Well, of course A can use deadly force, but justifying it would be a different matter.

I think it depends on a number of things, not the least of which is; are you asking an ethical, or legal, hypothetical question?

Ethically, I'd say no, if it's clear that A started a confrontation with the intent of causing physical harm. Reaping what you sow, and all.

Legally, tough to say. People get away with worse regularly (as evidenced by this case).

[Frank]

I've heard stories about gang members killing other gang members and not being prosecuted because of this law.  I heard on the radio about a guy who got in an argument, went home, got his gun, came back, resumed the argument and shot the other guy. The police could do nothing.

You're living in a immoral sewer. You pass laws that actually allow people to shoot dead other people without fear of punishment. Is it possible to go any lower than that?

Why don't you just put aside one day a year, you could call it kill day. During that twenty four hours, which would be televised and points awarded for the best kill, anyone would be allowed to shoot dead anyone else they see on the street, since quite plainly you americans won't be happy until you get to kill at least one other human being with those guns you so lovingly care about.

[Chronos]

Zimmerman assaulted Martin by chasing him, and clearly the phone calls Martin made to his girlfriend revealed that Martin was in fear of some form of violence. If Zimmerman first touched Martin, then Zimmerman battered Martin, as well as assaulted him.

Pretty biased since you have no basis to claim an "assault" by someone simply following and watching? Even chasing someone is not an assault. All the other facts of the case are very much in dispute.

Assault^Wiki is "a crime which involves causing a victim to fear violence". Battery^Wiki is "a criminal offense involving unlawful physical contact, distinct from assault which is the fear of such contact".

Zimmerman presented the threat of violence to Martin, ergo assault. The question becomes whether Zimmerman battered Martin.

If I had been in Trevor's shoes, I would not be dead no matter how black I was. I would have simply stopped and explained to Zimmerman how his fears are unwarranted and that I was not a threat.

I think the key difference here is that you are not black, and George Zimmerman is not after you. If you are white and think you are being pursued by a black man, are you going to turn around and say "Hey, dude, your fears are unwarranted and I am not a threat"? Are you? Your position presumes that a non-black has a reason to suspect that a black is a threat of some sort, but not vice-versa.

Of course I would not have been in the situation because I would not have violated my school's rules and be on a 10 day expulsion either. 

That has nothing to do with his death except to be prejudicial toward Martin's prior circumstance rather than with his then-current circumstance.

The media is trying their damnedest to make a clansman out of Zimmerman just to rile up the masses.

I haven't heard a single media outlet claim that Zimmerman is part of the Klu Klux Klan or any similar organization, unless you consider the neighborhood watch to be a subset of the klan. Zimmerman appears to be an overzealous wanna-be-cop who armed himself for his own schedule of patrols and ignored the warnings of police ... I'm guessing he thought he was calling for backup, not first response. Additionally, where I live the people who participate in neighborhood watch are supposed to work in pairs at designated times, not solo.

[Chronos]

Theoretical question:

You have two people A & B.

A starts a fight with B (B was minding his own business).

A starts getting his ass kicked badly in the fight (remember A started the fight for no apparent reason)

A feels he may now be killed by B.

Can A, at this point (he's losing the fight) use deadly force in self defense?

Yes. A can use the force required to repel B, even if that force is deadly -- meaning that B had to meet A with the threat of deadly force or at least the likelihood of deadly force. If B were brandishing a weapon at A, that would immediately qualify as the threat of deadly force.

The problem here is that we are talking about Florida. We also have to assume that B could have been "standing his ground" against A instead of retreating -- but A is the only one alive to still tell a tale. Florida law would allow B to "stand his ground", but in this case B didn't possess a deadly weapon. Ergo, A gets a bye because he was the victor.

[Seppuku]

I've heard stories about gang members killing other gang members and not being prosecuted because of this law.  I heard on the radio about a guy who got in an argument, went home, got his gun, came back, resumed the argument and shot the other guy. The police could do nothing.

You're living in a immoral sewer. You pass laws that actually allow people to shoot dead other people without fear of punishment. Is it possible to go any lower than that?

Why don't you just put aside one day a year, you could call it kill day. During that twenty four hours, which would be televised and points awarded for the best kill, anyone would be allowed to shoot dead anyone else they see on the street, since quite plainly you americans won't be happy until you get to kill at least one other human being with those guns you so lovingly care about.

And of course OUR people decide our laws.  I don't remember passing any laws here in the UK and I'm fairly certain the American people didn't pass those laws themselves. I've yet to speak to an American who is a Bona Fide gun nut, I did get to speak to an Australian one on here though.

[jaimehlers]

I'm not completely clear on this incident, though of course I've heard of it.  If I'm understanding correctly, there was a black youth walking at night, and an armed white man in a truck following him because he looked suspicious.  As a direct result of this, there was an extended confrontation where the black youth was apparently trying to get away, and the white man apparently shot and killed him at some point during this confrontation.

Is that substantially correct?

[ParkingPlaces]

Anybody read Krugman's NYT column today titled Lobbyists, Guns and Money? Turns out the lobbyists who are pushing for that same shoot-in-self-defense law in all 50 states also push privatization of prisons, among other things. Lets see, private prisons, paid more when there are more prisoners, wanting there to be more prisoners so they can make more money, so they push laws that might cause ore prisoners to be sent to jail. Makes sense to me.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/26/opinion/krugman-lobbyists-guns-and-money.html?_r=1

Greed makes the world go round. But at least profit is involved, so no harm done.

Oh, and I give up trying to make sense of any given situation, Trayvon or otherwise, based on what the news media tells me. I was all lumpy-throated when I saw the Kony 12 video, then I found out it was made by an outfit funded by fundy's, and that Kenyans think it's terrible and inaccurate. I just read a book review of a book by a lapsed, or at least freed Hasidic jewish woman who was forced to live that life style as a child and finally saw the light and ran away when she was in her early 20's. Then I found out she lied about a lot of the details in her book and I don't know who to believe. And the Trayvon Martin problem. Made big by the media who likes to make things big. Made big by the same media who ignores most of the victims of similar crimes. Who picked this one for who knows what reason. Of course injustices are involved. All the guy had to do is not follow the kid, or at least not confront the kid, and once he got home with his Skittles, no real harm done. But he had to play supercop and someone died who didn't need to and he might get off because of the way the law is written and the lawyers care less who is right or who is wrong. Just that they have a case and might get richer out of the deal.

And we might have to change the title of this thread because his mom is starting to trademark phrases with his name in it. No matter how sad one is, business is business. I'm not judging harshly here, I'm just saying it seems kind of inappropriate.

Oh, and as long as we're talking about racial matters, have you heard about all the racist tweets generated by the new movie "Hunger Games". Seems like a bunch of people think that it shouldn't have had major characters that were black, and many complained that it wasn't true to the book. Even though the book specifically stated that those characters were dark skinned people.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/320219/20120327/hunger-games-movie-racist-tweets-twitter-racism.htm
and
http://www.eonline.com/news/hunger_games_lenny_kravitz_amandla/304193?cmpid=rss-000000-rssfeed-365-topstories&utm_source=eonline&utm_medium=rssfeeds&utm_campaign=rss_topstories

At least that's what I was told by major media outlets. So it may be a complete lie. Or incomplete. Or accurate but irrelevant. I dunno.

[Dante]

Jaime, yes, that's the story the media has put forth.

Frank's bias is showing. There aren't any laws that give absolute impunity to murder. There are state laws that allow one to defend oneself, including the use of deadly force. And I don't have a problem with that. Apparently, Frank would stand by and be victimized.

[Chronos]

Zimmerman is claiming that Martin attacked him, but if you were being pursued by somebody you tried to avoid but who backtracked to catch you anyway, wouldn't you be in attack mode?

No, I wouldn't be. There is no reason for Trevor to have suspected Zimmerman as anything but a concerned neighbor.

A man is following you in his vehicle, slowly, very likely staring you down, and you say that you have no reason to fear him? I assert that you have no basic instincts for self-preservation.

If there is a neighborhood watch in a neighborhood, it's usually because there needs to be one due to crime threats in the neighborhood. People don't really do that often just for the giggles. It should have been obvious to him that the neighbors would wonder what a hooded individual was doing wandering the neighborhood. It should have been a question that he was ready to answer without attacks of any kind. But 17 yr old kids are really stupid, all colors.

Hooded individuals, especially those of the darker variety, frequently walk up and down my street on their way from point A to point B -- I presume they are on their way to the plaza near my house to either go to the grocery store, pharmacy the Get-N-Go or McDonalds (or any of the other dozen stores there). These individuals do not live on my block, but I suspect that they live on one of the blocks in my 6-block neighborhood. I do not immediately presume they are a threat.

Ever been on a neighborhood watch? You typically join the police force as something like an adjunct officer, which basically means that you can exercise your right to perform a citizen arrest (which is something you can do whether you are an adjunct officer or not) but with slightly lesser legal liability for a possible false arrest. You are trained on what to do and what NOT to do. Among the first things you learn is that you are the eyes and ears of the neighborhood but not the enforcer. You are to call the police and follow their directions first and foremost whenever you see suspicious activity. You are not to approach a suspect unless someone is under direct threat of violence without any threat of deadly force. If your neighbor is getting beat up you can try to intervene, but if the suspect is wielding ANYTHING that can be viewed as a weapon, you are to avoid contact, lest you get yourself killed along with your neighbor.

Carrying a loaded weapon while on neighborhood watch is not a good idea, regardless of whether you live in Florida or not. Calling the police 46 times in the past 12-18 months because you suspect 46 different people of something shows that you don't have a sense of what to watch for ...

[Frank]

I don't remember passing any laws here in the UK and I'm fairly certain the American people didn't pass those laws themselves. I've yet to speak to an American who is a Bona Fide gun nut, I did get to speak to an Australian one on here though.

No. They just vote for those that do.

[Frank]

Jaime, yes, that's the story the media has put forth.

Frank's bias is showing. There aren't any laws that give absolute impunity to murder. There are state laws that allow one to defend oneself, including the use of deadly force. And I don't have a problem with that. Apparently, Frank would stand by and be victimized.

Looks like Trayvon got "victimised" to death. Maybe he should have had a gun to avoid being victimised.