Author Topic: does promiscuity cause suffering?  (Read 1551 times)

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #116 on: April 23, 2017, 08:42:38 AM »
JB, I think at this point you realize you were incorrect and continue to post despite not answering the questions simply because you do not like to admit you were wrong. I can understand that, it's not fun being wrong. But admitting and changing your stance makes you better in that you are more correct than you previously were.


There is no withdrawal. I also don't function well with lack of food, or sleep, or money, etc. It's not withdrawal from those things, it's that those things are necessary to live how I would consider comfortably. I do not suffer because I have made it a point to not lack sexually.

I truly am sorry that what happened to you made you think that a natural function of human life is suffering, but your experience is not universal. You are going to have to understand that if you ever want to make some progress.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2017, 03:56:53 PM »
I think the original point that The Gawd was trying to make was that he feels better when he's sexually active, and that due to him having had multiple sexual partners, he would be considered promiscuous using most definitions of the word.  In other words, the number of sexual partners has no bearing on how he feels - he would still feel better being sexually active than not, even if he had only one partner.

This point is in danger of getting buried under irrelevancies, such as the comment that he might be suffering from withdrawal.  Which, I might add, is ill informed at best, and should be avoided due to the impossibility of showing that it's true.
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Online junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #118 on: April 24, 2017, 04:45:12 AM »
JB, I think at this point you realize you were incorrect and continue to post despite not answering the questions simply because you do not like to admit you were wrong. I can understand that, it's not fun being wrong. But admitting and changing your stance makes you better in that you are more correct than you previously were.


There is no withdrawal. I also don't function well with lack of food, or sleep, or money, etc. It's not withdrawal from those things, it's that those things are necessary to live how I would consider comfortably. I do not suffer because I have made it a point to not lack sexually.

I truly am sorry that what happened to you made you think that a natural function of human life is suffering, but your experience is not universal. You are going to have to understand that if you ever want to make some progress.

Ad hominem, you focus on me instead of the merits of the argument. 

I used an article from a Psychiatrist at a .gov site to prove my point not my own experience.  Argue the merits of that please.  Please explain how you don't fit that profile. 

People need those food, sleep and money to survive.  Not multiple sexual partners.

What about love?  Is love not a human need that surpasses sex?   If you're with a partner that has a bad car accident and is no longer able to perform sexually do you leave them? 

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when I am.  According to that expert and your own words I'm not wrong.  This is not my personal experience, it's about something I see happening in this country that gives me reason for concern.  I'm a Humanist. 

You are using your personal experience to represent all promiscuous people?   If that's the case as you say you suffer, so does every body else?

I think until I'm convinced I'm wrong I shouldn't just cave in.  I don't think that makes a good student at all. 

I did not say because I was raped sex is bad for every body.

Thank you for the compassionate sentiment. 
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Online junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #119 on: April 24, 2017, 05:32:32 AM »
I think the original point that The Gawd was trying to make was that he feels better when he's sexually active, and that due to him having had multiple sexual partners, he would be considered promiscuous using most definitions of the word.  In other words, the number of sexual partners has no bearing on how he feels - he would still feel better being sexually active than not, even if he had only one partner.

This point is in danger of getting buried under irrelevancies, such as the comment that he might be suffering from withdrawal.  Which, I might add, is ill informed at best, and should be avoided due to the impossibility of showing that it's true.

Having only one partner does not entail promiscuity.  That being said you're more likely to get your sex from a partner that loves and adores you than taking your chances with strangers.  Why not look for that special somebody than not? 

Just like getting a job and buying groceries.  You don't wing those things do you?  Looking for a different job all the time so you have food and shelter is not a realistic goal.  You find 1 job that covers all those bases.  You work hard in college to find that 1 job that fulfills you inter-personally and pays you enough to live a comfortable life.  If you do bounce around from job to job to job your resume will look like crap and the guy who doesn't gets the better position, no pun intended. :laugh:

By his own words he has negative psychological consequences as a direct result of his sexual behavior.  While you are correct that proving withdrawal is hard those negative psychological consequences are right there in his own words.

You're trying to bury the point that he suffers negative psychological consequences.  I take it neither of you read the article.   :(  If you had you would learn than men are at higher risk of suffering from a sexual disorder.

Prove that expert, Timothy W. Fong MD, wrong.  Tell me why you shouldn't listen to that expert?  Just like we listen to Dawkins concerning biology or Krauss concerning Physics or Harris concerning neurosciences, we are going to take DR Wong seriously, no? :?  Seems like confirmation bias is making you both uncomfortable with reading it. 

You're not dealing with JB.  You're dealing with DR Wong an expert in Psychology.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #120 on: April 24, 2017, 10:41:34 AM »
JB, I think at this point you realize you were incorrect and continue to post despite not answering the questions simply because you do not like to admit you were wrong. I can understand that, it's not fun being wrong. But admitting and changing your stance makes you better in that you are more correct than you previously were.


There is no withdrawal. I also don't function well with lack of food, or sleep, or money, etc. It's not withdrawal from those things, it's that those things are necessary to live how I would consider comfortably. I do not suffer because I have made it a point to not lack sexually.

I truly am sorry that what happened to you made you think that a natural function of human life is suffering, but your experience is not universal. You are going to have to understand that if you ever want to make some progress.

Ad hominem, you focus on me instead of the merits of the argument. 

I used an article from a Psychiatrist at a .gov site to prove my point not my own experience.  Argue the merits of that please.  Please explain how you don't fit that profile. 

People need those food, sleep and money to survive.  Not multiple sexual partners.

What about love?  Is love not a human need that surpasses sex?   If you're with a partner that has a bad car accident and is no longer able to perform sexually do you leave them? 

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when I am.  According to that expert and your own words I'm not wrong.  This is not my personal experience, it's about something I see happening in this country that gives me reason for concern.  I'm a Humanist. 

You are using your personal experience to represent all promiscuous people?   If that's the case as you say you suffer, so does every body else?

I think until I'm convinced I'm wrong I shouldn't just cave in.  I don't think that makes a good student at all. 

I did not say because I was raped sex is bad for every body.

Thank you for the compassionate sentiment.

Couple things I did not attack you. You have made it clear that you had some sort of tramatic sexual event that you said influenced your position. I cant find it later if need be. An ad hominem attack would be if I said "JB is stupid therefore JB is wrong."  You have to get away from the idea that people are attacking you personally when they are attacking your unfounded assertions.

I did not see whatever article you are referring to so I cannot speak on its merrits or lack there of. People do need food to survive however the quantity and type is variable. As for sleep, I have not seen anything that suggests you die from lack of sleep and certainly not from lack of money, so you are wrong there.

Point stands without you trying to obfuscate, that I am better off promiscuous than not. Lack of sex whether with one or more than one partner has shown to be at the root of suffering. This does not square with your position.

If you have some other definition of promiscuity that no one else is using then you need to define it so we can know what you are talking about.

I am not using my experience to apply to all mankand, I am asking you to address why my experience does not conform to what you are saying. You are saying "if x then y" when you come across a situation of x that doesnt end in then y, you should address it. Perhaps there is a variable that leads to promiscuity and suffering that you are overlooking. Perhaps the two arent even correlated as you think they are. The possibilities are endless. At the end of the day your assertion was too broad for it to ever be addressed.

We are not talking about withdrawal, or love, we are not talking about car accidents, these topics are taking away from the issue at hand

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2017, 02:04:26 PM »
You are completely missing the points both The Gawd and I are trying to make, junebug.  Given how you feel when you perceive someone to be missing a point you're trying to make, wouldn't it behoove you to be careful to make sure you don't do it to others?

First off, it is a major mistake for you - or anyone - who doesn't have experience with psychiatry or psychology, to attempt to 'diagnose' someone else's psychological state, especially when you've never interacted with the person outside of an internet forum.  This is something you can ask your counselor when you next see her, too.  Psychology is not an exact science, and even people trained and experienced in using it would be very careful about trying to do so with someone on an online forum.

Second, you have not yet shown that there is a correlation between the number of sexual partners The Gawd has had and how he feels when he has not had sex in a while.  You haven't even shown that the number of sexual partners he has had is even relevant to how he feels when he goes without sex.  That is pretty much the point I was making to you.  Your opinion on the matter is basically conjecture based on things you've read, and at the moment, you have no way to know how accurate that conjecture is, or if it is accurate at all, due to your near-total lack of experience with the field of psychology/psychiatry.

You can talk about the "negative psychological consequences" you think he has until you go blue in the face, and it won't change the fact that you are not qualified to determine whether or not he has them because you are neither a psychologist nor a psychiatrist.  Reading a paper written by someone else on the subject will not give you those qualifications, either, any more than me reading an article written by a car mechanic would make me qualified to work as one.  And car repair is much simpler than psychology - it takes years of specialized education just to get to the starting line as far as being a psychologist or psychiatrist goes, whereas you can learn the basics of car repair and maintenance "on the job", so to speak.

To put it simply, I don't have to prove the person you quoted wrong, because he didn't make the diagnosisYou did.  Attempting to triumphantly wave words from that article around simply shows that you don't know enough on the subject to be taken seriously.  Not to mention a completely inappropriate use of an argument from authority.  Proper use of an argument from authority involves letting the authority speak for themselves, and you aren't.  You're trying to wrap your own words in the mantle of Dr. Fong's authority, and that doesn't work, because you're not qualified to do so.

Dr. Fong was talking about individuals who have been diagnosed with sexual addiction, and discussing withdrawal symptoms such people suffer.  I would not argue with his conclusion, that people can be addicted to sex just like they can be addicted to other things, and so would suffer withdrawal symptoms from not having it.  But that is a far cry from taking that general conclusion and trying use it to make a diagnosis that you're neither trained nor qualified to give.

To put it another way, you can't assume that because you believe someone seems to be suffering withdrawal symptoms, that they actually are.  Especially seeing as you aren't qualified to give psychiatric diagnoses in the first place, and wouldn't be in the position to give The Gawd a psychiatric evaluation even if you were qualified to do so.
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Online junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #122 on: April 26, 2017, 06:21:57 AM »
I know I'm not qualified but that expert is.  The link is right there.  If you really want some insight into what's happening to you Gawd I really think you should read it.

The ad hominem is JB is using personal experience, which I did not do, therefor she is wrong. 

Read the article and decide for yourself if it applies to you.

You know you are dodging questions.  That to me is an indication of a cover up.

I ask again how does your sexual behavior affect the women kind enough to engage with you?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2017, 05:19:42 AM »
To Gawd and Junebug.

Scenario: Gawd is in a long-term relationship, which both parties wish to be permanent.  Both parties have willingly agreed to be monogamous within that relationship, and there are active and frequent sexual pairings.

Gawd: how would you function within that scenario?
Junebug: would you categorise Gawd as promiscuous in that scenario?

Scenario addendum: Due to accident or illness, Gawd's partner is no longer able to be sexually active. 

Gawd: how would you now function within that scenario?
Junebug: would your categorisation of Gawd's promiscuity change given the change in the scenario?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline albeto

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #124 on: April 27, 2017, 11:12:19 AM »
I know I'm not qualified but that expert is.  The link is right there.  If you really want some insight into what's happening to you Gawd I really think you should read it.

"The article supports my premise" is the claim, not the evidence. Take the time to lay it out for us. Point out the dots, then connect them. I think we all enjoyed Jag's example in the support thread. If you use that as a guide, it might help us understand what your thinking is here.

The ad hominem is JB is using personal experience, which I did not do, therefor she is wrong.

That's not what ad hominem fallacy is. Ad hominem refers to attacking a person's traits or character in order to undermine the argument. To say someone is wrong is to say their opinion in the matter is incorrect. It is a conclusion, not a commentary on a personal trait or character. People can be right or wrong at any given time about any given belief; that's not personal. It's not a personal attack to suggest someone's argument or conclusion is not accurate because it's a direct response to the argument itself, not the person. In other words, attacking an argument is fair game.

Read the article and decide for yourself if it applies to you.

The responsibility is yours to show the content of the article is relevant to the discussion. Outside links like that should support your claim, but the claim itself should be readily available here. The problem that I can see is your claims are being rejected for one reason after another. Rather than point to other articles and declaring them a solution of sorts, take the time to lay it out step by step for us. In doing so, you might find your claim really doesn't hold up, and that's fine. You'll learn why, you'll know more, and you'll have a more accurate belief in the long run.

I ask again how does your sexual behavior affect the women kind enough to engage with you?

This question is irrelevant to Gawd's lack of suffering.

Offline Jag

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #125 on: April 27, 2017, 10:12:25 PM »
I'm going to avoid some reality in my life and dive into this instead.

Going back to the very beginning, I think that the baggage and judgment associated with promiscuity is as responsible for any subsequent suffering as any other factor. For any number of people, what may be labeled as "promiscuous" is simply their preferred level of sexual expression. The sex isn't the cause of the suffering, the judgments and bullshit imposed by other people is the problem.

Gawd is a perfect example. His preferred approach seems to be serial partners without monogamy, or perhaps that's his secondary choice outside of a long-term -relationship. In any case, it hurts no one provided he isn't being dishonest with his partners in the first place.

Gawd, I apologies if I've taken inappropriate liberties with your words.

Let's set aside promiscuous behavior that could be the result of childhood trauma. Women are held to a standard of sexual behavior that men are not. We're often, in weird ways, also held accountable for men's sexual behavior. We're told, directly and indirectly, that we shouldn't have sexual desires or needs of our own, that men have more sexual freedom than women do and that's the way the world is. The deeper those beliefs are - and we all have them unless we've made a deliberate effort to dig them out - the more we accept that promiscuity = bad.

Notice that men are rarely, if ever, described as promiscuous?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #126 on: April 27, 2017, 11:50:38 PM »
I know I'm not qualified but that expert is.  The link is right there.  If you really want some insight into what's happening to you Gawd I really think you should read it.
I did read the article, junebug, and I disagree with the way you're trying to interpret it with regards to The Gawd.  In fact, I disagree very strongly regarding that.  And, frankly, I suspect that the doctor himself might object to using his article this way.  He was talking about people who had been previously diagnosed with sexual addiction, not making an argument that people with particular traits could be considered to be sex addicts.

Quote from: junebug72
The ad hominem is JB is using personal experience, which I did not do, therefor she is wrong.
That isn't an ad hominem in the first place.  An ad hominem is when a person attacks the character or motives of another person rather than addressing their argument.  Him stating that you used personal experiences to come to your conclusion is not an attack on either your character or your motives.  We all use our own personal experiences to draw conclusions about other people.  Where people tend to go wrong is when they put too much weight on their own personal experiences and not enough on other things.  But even then, it isn't a character flaw in and of itself.

Furthermore, it wouldn't matter whether he was right or wrong about it - whether a particular statement is right or wrong has no bearing on whether it's an ad hominem or not.  What makes something an ad hominem is whether it focuses on the person making the argument rather than the argument itself.  For example, let's say that an atheist and a theist were having an argument of some kind, and in response to an argument the atheist made about morality, the theist said "well, of course you believe that; you're an atheist".  That is an ad hominem because of how it's trying to make the argument about the atheist, rather than the atheist's argument.  By comparison, if you had someone point out that an argument had a logical flaw, it wouldn't be an ad hominem because it's pointing out problems with the argument, rather than anything to do with the arguer.  That would remain true even if it ended up that there wasn't a logical flaw.

That would remain true even if the arguer took it personally.  In fact, if the arguer took it personally, they'd be committing an ad hominem against themselves.  Again, it doesn't matter whether the statement is right or wrong.  What matters is whether it focuses on the person making the argument, rather than the argument itself.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #127 on: April 27, 2017, 11:57:32 PM »
Notice that men are rarely, if ever, described as promiscuous?
Not only that, but men are expected to be sexually active and have strong libidos and all sorts of other nonsense.  In fact, that expectation is so ubiquitous that men who aren't sexually active are considered to be abnormal.
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Offline Jag

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #128 on: April 28, 2017, 12:08:48 AM »
^ Valid point, and one I hadn't considered. A good example of the kind of conditioning I'm talking about, and the biases we hold that we're completely unaware of.
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Online junebug72

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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 06:05:00 AM »
To Gawd and Junebug.

Scenario: Gawd is in a long-term relationship, which both parties wish to be permanent.  Both parties have willingly agreed to be monogamous within that relationship, and there are active and frequent sexual pairings.

Gawd: how would you function within that scenario?
Junebug: would you categorise Gawd as promiscuous in that scenario?

Scenario addendum: Due to accident or illness, Gawd's partner is no longer able to be sexually active. 

Gawd: how would you now function within that scenario?
Junebug: would your categorisation of Gawd's promiscuity change given the change in the scenario?

Scenario 1, no

Scenario 2.  No.

I haven't considered The Gawd promiscuous since his 1st post. 
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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #130 on: Yesterday at 06:41:11 AM »
I'm going to avoid some reality in my life and dive into this instead.

Going back to the very beginning, I think that the baggage and judgment associated with promiscuity is as responsible for any subsequent suffering as any other factor. For any number of people, what may be labeled as "promiscuous" is simply their preferred level of sexual expression. The sex isn't the cause of the suffering, the judgments and bullshit imposed by other people is the problem.

Gawd is a perfect example. His preferred approach seems to be serial partners without monogamy, or perhaps that's his secondary choice outside of a long-term -relationship. In any case, it hurts no one provided he isn't being dishonest with his partners in the first place.

Gawd, I apologies if I've taken inappropriate liberties with your words.

Let's set aside promiscuous behavior that could be the result of childhood trauma. Women are held to a standard of sexual behavior that men are not. We're often, in weird ways, also held accountable for men's sexual behavior. We're told, directly and indirectly, that we shouldn't have sexual desires or needs of our own, that men have more sexual freedom than women do and that's the way the world is. The deeper those beliefs are - and we all have them unless we've made a deliberate effort to dig them out - the more we accept that promiscuity = bad.

Notice that men are rarely, if ever, described as promiscuous?

You know I'm not judging, right.  Not my intention. 

I do however think there's a reason why people have negative opinions about promiscuity.   I think that reason is children. 

I don't think anybody on this forum would teach their children this lifestyle is the best possible lifestyle. 

Adults all of us whether parents are not are role models for children. 

Sometimes children are made in these encounters.  Sometimes those children are found in dumpsters or end up in foster care. 

It just seems to me children flourish more in a home with educated monogamous parents.

I think that's why there's so much judgement.  50 million abortions included. 

I think those rules change for a woman who is independent.   

Promiscuity just seems like your using people for your own selfish desires. 

In the rest of the animal kingdom mother bears are promiscuous to prevent other bears from eating their offspring.  There are animals that mate for life. 

Sex is not a toy.  It has an evolutionary function, reproduction and the brain reacts with chemicals to make you love that person so the child has a mother to love and nourish them and a father to provide food, shelter and protection.
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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #131 on: Yesterday at 06:50:19 AM »
I know I need to think about homosexuals and heterosexuals that can not reproduce.  I certainly don't begrudge them a "love"life. 

I think a life enriched with love is a good life.  Life is short so why spend that time with temporary pleasure when you could spend it enriched with love and a partner you can depend on to stick around through hard times and enjoy the good times.
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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #132 on: Yesterday at 06:58:43 AM »
At Jaime,

I think the DR would be fine with me sharing his expert opinion on sexual disorders in a thread about promiscuity.   When you post something on the Web, I'm pretty damn sure you want that info shared.  8)

I wouldn't consider using the remark about using personal experience an ad hominem if a) I was and b) if I wasn't in a hot seat for doing that thing on a regular basis and c) if I had not shared a link to an expert opinion.

The article was about how Dr Wong thinks these disorders should be added to the DSM.
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Re: does promiscuity cause suffering?
« Reply #133 on: Yesterday at 12:16:40 PM »
You know I'm not judging, right.  Not my intention. 

I do however think there's a reason why people have negative opinions about promiscuity.   I think that reason is children. 

I don't think anybody on this forum would teach their children this lifestyle is the best possible lifestyle. 

Adults all of us whether parents are not are role models for children. 

Sometimes children are made in these encounters.  Sometimes those children are found in dumpsters or end up in foster care. 

It just seems to me children flourish more in a home with educated monogamous parents.

I think that's why there's so much judgement.  50 million abortions included. 

I think those rules change for a woman who is independent.   

Promiscuity just seems like your using people for your own selfish desires. 

In the rest of the animal kingdom mother bears are promiscuous to prevent other bears from eating their offspring.  There are animals that mate for life. 

Sex is not a toy.  It has an evolutionary function, reproduction and the brain reacts with chemicals to make you love that person so the child has a mother to love and nourish them and a father to provide food, shelter and protection.

more baseless claims by JB which still doesn't support her claims.  Starting with "think of the children!" never works very well.   

Honestly, what the heck about the bears?   :o
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