Author Topic: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'  (Read 2586 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #174 on: February 25, 2017, 05:38:49 AM »
Screwtape I told my therapist the truth.  All I asked her is, is abortion related to mental illness. 

She did read my first post and was quite adamant that you all can't take my truth away from me. 

She said it is impulse control.  That could be sex
, drugs, gambling...

I have already explained that I haven't had time to respond with deep thought and effort until #146.  That is my latest and the post I stand by. 

No I'm not for the anti abortionists counseling.  I was able to do that thanks to jaime's cool head.  Thanks to jaime not resenting to do it.  Thanks Jaime. 

I would think I have earned enough respect to be heard out.  People here, you are telling me I don't know my own self.   That's why I'm kicking and screaming.  If you claim to be an expert on me then by all means tell me how I ended up in an abortion clinic when that is something I never wanted to do.

I do respect you screwtape but that doesn't give you a free pass to ostracize me.  You shouldn't have said that about my friends who I know have mental illness.  I know that's why they had multiple abortions.  That's impulse control.  It is you that don't respect me.  I will not respect any body here again until I get it back in return.

Now I have made my position perfectly clear.   I agree the forced counseling is wrong.  When I talk about women's issues I look at the big picture not a part of it.

@Jaime I know abstinence isn't practiced much.  I didn't need you to tell me that.  I'm basically preparing myself because there is a strong chance abortion will be gone in 2 years or less. 

I would chose to battle climate change if given the choice between abortion and battling climate change.

Atheists promote promiscuity.  Maybe we should find some humanist reasons for abstinence like say population control and better quality relationships.  That is a part of battling climate change.  Better relationships means less suffering.  The best possible living.  When people ain't suffering they are more reasonable. 

Nobody wants to get an abortion.  No little girl dreams of growing up and getting 20 abortions.  There is a cause and it's impulse control.  That is a symptom of mental illness.

I'm not going to pretend it's not there just to promote an agenda.  I think honesty is the best policy always.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 06:14:56 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #175 on: February 25, 2017, 05:49:35 AM »
After that last pm you sent me Junebug I give up. I tried to be decent, but it's obvious to me by now I just can't win here.

You weren't aggressive.  You were empathetic.  I don't know what she sent you, but if this is anything like past cases, your empathetic approach may have made you a target for abuse.  I, for example, received no PM (negative or otherwise) at any point, yet I outright called her abusive.

Empathy is powerful, unless the target of the empathy is a practiced abuser.  In that case, then empathy is an opportunistic crack through which abuse can be carried out.  You can hurt someone who's being empathetic far worse than you can hurt someone who's being aggressive.

I suspect that's why you're a target in ways that I, for example, am not.  Because you're easier for her to hurt.

I appreciate that Azdgari, thanks.

Sorry for making my earlier post a bit misleading. Didn't mean to. I actually messaged Junebug first. Was referring to the reply I got. It's to do with something she accused me of that's not to do with this thread subject. I don't see, in that particular instance, that she abused me me as such, but did jump to an inaccurate conclusion that I didn't feel was fair.

That said, what you said on my being targeted with abuse is very relevant to something else that's been going on with me recently. In that case, I think you are most likely right. Well, there was that and repeatedly choosing not to walk away (figuratively anyway) from the situation due to reasons such as low self esteem, having unwanted unhealthy confusing feelings for the person in question and feeling guilty for how this might negatively impact on a third party if I did. I also had a misplaced sense of hope, on and off (for far too long) that if only I did this or that that it would improve things between me and said other person. But I was fooling myself. They seriously don't give a shit that I cared about them, never did and never will. Was a point that I thought they'd started to gain at least some respect/liking for me. But if they did, it didn't last and for all I know I got that wrong. It's crystal clear to me by now that they are more emotionally abusive/messed up than I once realised/could accept.

I really am dreading (what I see to be) a not unlikely chance I will come across somebody in the workplace one day like this. :-( In this situation, once I was shocked into facing reality better than before/enough self esteem kicked in that made me think "I'm putting my psychological health first and screw this I've had enough". But in that situation kind, it won't be so simple. Also, I'm no longer confident that assertiveness works on abusive people like this. I know that it's promoted as a tool for handling bullying etc. But I'm starting to think it's over rated.

I can see why people choose to be aggressive when other approaches to stop abuse fail.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #176 on: February 25, 2017, 06:27:44 AM »
Albeto I did in fact list poverty as a reason for mental illness  It's #2 so you make no sense to me.

Ignoring the relationship between mental illness and abortion is the real danger.  You can't tell people they don't have a nose when it's right there on your face.   
Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man...Thomas Paine

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #177 on: February 25, 2017, 06:40:56 AM »
Emma if people are sick of my sensitivity then how do you think I feel? 

Everybody has been hot headed, defensive and sensitive in this thread.  Except Jag and Jaime and albeto.

I don't talk my abortion with anybody.  It's perfectly reasonable that this thread in particular has been difficult for me.  You all should be honored I felt I could share with yuns.  Now I wish I had not.

It actually says more about them than it does about me.  I am who I am.   It shows that when faced with a real life person who has suffered they really don't care.  Because I believe determinism is true I find my way to empathy real easy.

I am me and I am awesome.  I am pretty tough despite being sensitive.  I like caring about people, the planet and ending unnecessary suffering.  If you don't find those qualities appealing, I don't care.

BTW when my therapist says this site ain't good for me.  I explain to her they saved my life.  I just need to debate theists and choose threads more carefully. 

I stand by everybody here is sensitive about something. 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 07:10:31 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline Emma286

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #178 on: February 25, 2017, 11:33:00 AM »
Junebug,

Point out exactly where in here I've once said anything negative relating to your ability to care for others? Where exactly did I say I thought that it wasn't understandable that you found the thread difficult?     

You might find this a bitter pill to swallow. I don't always find this truth easy to live with myself. Nobody is automatically entitled to have anybody else feel any particular reaction towards them just because they desire it. It's just not how reality works, for any of us. Given that, the should statement you made above (on that) is a thought distortion/irrational I am afraid. See here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_distortion
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 12:35:05 PM by Emma286 »

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #179 on: February 25, 2017, 12:39:03 PM »
Albeto I did in fact list poverty as a reason for mental illness  It's #2 so you make no sense to me.

I suspect a lot of these posts make no sense to you.

Ignoring the relationship between mental illness and abortion is the real danger.  You can't tell people they don't have a nose when it's right there on your face.   

Case in point.

It's so weird discussing things with you because you'll pull one word out of a comment, and then proceed to argue an unexpected, and irrelevant point. This post is a good example. It appears as if you don't know what a causal relationship is, and so you are just ignoring that word, hoping no one notices. I've noticed that elsewhere, and I'm starting to see a trend.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #180 on: February 25, 2017, 03:09:12 PM »
@Emma you did say people were probably getting sick of my being sensitive.  You said that without giving evidence such as how many threads I have had emotional reactions to compared to one's I havent.  Especially since starting therapy.

Abortion threads threads get hot I realize now.   

What people can't do is try and take your truth.  People are welcome to disagree in a calm way.  If they're going to yell and be condescending like albeto does in the post right after yours why should they expect a nice post from me? 

I don't think you will find me starting any aggressive language.  It's always retaliation. 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #181 on: February 25, 2017, 03:31:20 PM »
Albeto why do you say you suspect these posts make no sense to me? 

That's becoming a trend for you.  I understand very well what's going here.  How is making my case an irrelevant point?  It has been my goal from the get go to tie abortion to mental illness.  This is an abortion thread and that quote you posted is my case about mental health and abortion.  The least you could have done was explain WHY it's irrelevant.   When you don't you just come across as a pompous a$$. 

You will not convince me of something my therapist says is true is not true. 

It's awkward talking to you for the same reason.  Like what you said above about what I said above.  The 3 links are obviously meant to be together.  Not divided as you have done.  Own it. 

There's no shame in losing an argument with me.  If there is to you that's your underestimating my intelligence.   Something I don't do. 

If the only female issue you care about is the right to abort you are a dangerous non advocate of women's issues. 

Do you own stock? 

Why can't you just let me out of this thread?  I've agreed with the OP.  I followed my passion about mental illness being an issue.  I'm done.  We are so off topic.  If you want to talk about what it's like talking to me from your perspective start a new thread.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #182 on: February 25, 2017, 03:39:38 PM »
I really cannot emphasize the fact that abstinence will not work enough, junebug.  We're going against our evolutionary history, our psychology, and pretty much every culture on the planet by arguing for it.  Might as well spit in a hurricane.

Lengthier response later.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #183 on: February 25, 2017, 03:43:33 PM »
One more question Emma.  Do I have the same right?  I get the impression I don't have that right. 

I reacted the way JB reacts.  I am told I'm abusive and other things too like misunderstanding when I'm not.  I don't respect double standards at all.  At ALL I tell you.  I've been told I "should"  think this way,  agree this way.  Um k.  I don't find it bitter I find it hypocritical that I get called out and others don't. 

You're pretty much telling me right here how I should behave. 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #184 on: February 25, 2017, 03:58:03 PM »
Jaime just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.  Most of the time it seems the high road is more difficult. 

I don't mean to do it for the same reasons religious people do.  I have humanists reasons for flirting with that idea. 

I think many do it to spite religion.  When you talk like that it was once our species male instinct to take a woman he wants whether she wanted it or not.  We have evolved.  My humanist reasons are STD prevention especially AIDS,  economics,  unwanted pregnancies stuff like that.  More intimate relationships so children aren't stressed out.  To stop the spread of mental illness from early childhood trauma.

@Emma let me change the wording to, it is an honor that I have spoken to this forum about my abortion experience.   Is that better?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #185 on: February 25, 2017, 04:53:52 PM »
Screwtape I told my therapist the truth.  All I asked her is, is abortion related to mental illness.

She did read my first post and was quite adamant that you all can't take my truth away from me. 

Your truth?  Wtf does that mean? The truth about your experience?

And is she a psychiatrist or not?  And given that she also lives ing the south, there's a good chance she's a forced birther, in which case there is a good chance she's not above lying about it.  Those sons a bitches lie like rugs.

She said it is impulse control.  That could be sex
, drugs, gambling...

Bold mine.  So, here is a point where we could go awry.  You think you have communicated clearly, but you haven't.  I could think I know what you mean by "it", when in fact I don't.  You were not specific. You were vague.  Rather than risk going off the rails, I'm just going to ask you to be crystal clear and specific.  What, exactly, is "it"?

Quote from: junebug72 link=totpic=29634.msg715608#msg715608 date=1488019129
I would think I have earned enough respect to be heard out.

I've heard you out.  I just disagree with some of the stuff I understand.

  People here, you are telling me I don't know my own self.   That's why I'm kicking and screaming.  If you claim to be an expert on me then by all means tell me how I ended up in an abortion clinic when that is something I never wanted to do.

See, this is what I mean.  I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.  It looks to me like some cryptic allusions to some deeply personal experiences you had, and which I think is probably a bad idea to share with strangers on the internet.  And it appears you have taken that experience and extrapolated it and projected it to every woman who's ever had an abortion. But I am only about 30% confident that's what's happening.

I do respect you screwtape but that doesn't give you a free pass to ostracize me.

? What?  I'm not ostracizing you. To ostracize to is exclude you from the group. I'm not excluding you your trying to get other people to leave you out.   Where is this coming from?  Do you means something else?

You shouldn't have said that about my friends who I know have mental illness.  I know that's why they had multiple abortions.  That's impulse control. 

? I said what?   This whole thing started off with your statement here:
Do you understand that it takes mental illness in the form of insecurity of one's self esteem to be a multiple abortioner?

To which I replied:
Nope.  Not at all.  That's your unqualified opinion.  Back that up as being a valid position.

I said that because your statement was a broad, sweeping statement that sounds ridiculous.  Now, you seem to be saying you were only talking about two specific people. I am inclined to think you just shifted your position over the thread.  But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.  You have to admit, though, that your initial statement sounded nothing like that and was completely misleading.

It is you that don't respect me.

Or, it's that you have not communicated effectively, sounded like you said a lot of crazy stuff, and I responded to that, not knowing what you really meant.

Now I have made my position perfectly clear.   I agree the forced counseling is wrong. 

Well, I'm glad that's finally cleared up.

Atheists promote promiscuity. 

Okay, see, this is where you lose me again. This is patently untrue and sounds like crazy talk. We'll argue about this, your position will shift 3 or 4 times, and in the end you'll say you meant something completely different.  Maybe you did and maybe you just kept back pedaling.  Who knows?  But this is the kind of nonsense that is a the root of the problem.

I dunno what to do here, JB.  I'd like to keep engaging you, but I don't want you to come away angry or feeling bad.  Tell me what you want.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #186 on: February 25, 2017, 09:08:33 PM »
I don't care about reasons, junebug, I care about results and effectiveness.  This is part of what it means to be rational - to understand that reality simply doesn't care if you have good reasons for wanting something.  And it's evident that you don't understand that yet, simply by the way you approach issues like this.

Look at the way you were talking about how you would be okay with surrendering on abortion if it meant getting what you wanted regarding climate change or wealth inequality.  But that doesn't even show a good understanding of how compromise actually works, never mind making the compromise work (which is where understanding that you can't compromise with reality comes in).

I'll be honest here, I have no problems whatsoever with you thinking of climate change as a bigger problem than abortion.  In fact, it almost certainly is.  But that's no justification for essentially throwing abortion out the window, because they are both problems that will eventually have to be dealt with.  And in truth, abortion is also going to be an easier problem to resolve.  All it would take is long-duration contraceptive implants[1], and the problem would basically be solved entirely because people could decide whether they wanted to be able to have children or not.

Does that make sense to you?
 1. that could be disabled as needed
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2017, 06:20:48 AM »
Screwtape it started the moment you said my friends should have 20 abortions. 

I'll admit this harder on my phone. 

I was diagnosed by a psychologist.  Heather Lussier is my therapist and she is published in psychology today.  That's how I found her.  I told you MY COUNTY IS BLUE.  She specializes in LGBT issues.  She marched in the Women's March of Asheville for PP and women's rights.  I'm pro-choice.

It=unwanted pregnancies. 

BTW therapist's with her credentials can also diagnose.   Fyi.


I have refuted the accusation several times that I never meant all. 

Do you really think I'm the only little girl who had a traumatic childhood that's had an abortion?

All I'm asking you to do is look deeper into issues such as child abuse and poverty and how those two things, especially when both are present affect behaviors that put you at high risk of needing an abortion.  That's all I've asked you for. 

Anthony Weiner isn't from the south.  Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't from the south I could go on and on.  The north isn't any more honest.  People lie like dogs all over the world.  The north has higher crime rates. 

Screwtape if women don't talk about their abuse  how will it ever get better.  I'm free to talk about my experience.   The first ammendment is a thing.  Honestly attempting to shame me for knocked off some of that respect if not all of it.

It is for that reason I will no longer read your posts to me in this thread. 

You obviously are not interested in my truth.  Are you going to say Azdgari should not have told of his wife's abortion.  My experience is on topic?  If not well that's being a hypocrite.

I said I agree with your OP. 
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2017, 06:55:40 AM »
@JAIME I CARE about you not caring about good reasons to implement a plan that would improve the problem of suffering.  There's no good reasons to shave my legs but I do it.  Modernity to me is moving away from the savagery from our past.  Not using our reptilian and primal parts of our brains instead using the logic and creative parts. 

Controlling your sex drive drive is reasonable not controlling your sex drive is impulsive and indicates you're using your primal brain. 

Religion has failed with their scary tactics to address this issue.  If humanism can do it then yay for humanism. 

I would understand what you're saying about compromise if you would give an example of a working compromise.  Jaime I literally fear another civil war if not for hope of compromising or bipartisan accomplishment. 

Jaime does it really matter if we resolve abortion if we don't resolve climate change?   I guess you don't know a meemaw's love.  I literally have visions of My grandson and his children smothering to death or dying from radiation exposure because our atmosphere that protects us from those blasts from the sun that makes the Aurora lights visible will be gone.

In lieu of that I would toss abortion in a red hot minute if it meant getting what I want.  It is the prettiest carrot to dangle.

I heard the best argument for PP yesterday after Paul Ryan made the red herring fallacy of saying abortions were funded by the federal government.   Women were there sharing their experiences, how dare they. **roll eyes**    Those eyes are not for you. :)

You know them right wingers are not going to get implants after the problems that have been reported.  BTW why you only talking about female implants.  Men's birth control means are much safer than women's.   Birth control does affect hair growth.  There are valid reasons why women are skeptical of the different forms of birth control.  You guys get reversible vasectomy instead. ;)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 07:04:29 AM by junebug72 »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2017, 01:05:26 PM »
Albeto why do you say you suspect these posts make no sense to me? 

I say this based on the responses to some posts. The responses suggest that you're not comprehending the point, but rather getting distracted with one word or phrase that seems to trigger you in some way. You then go on to assure people about some component of an otherwise unrelated or illogically followed concept. In short, the context of your replies aren't always fitting with the context of the comments to which you reply.

That's becoming a trend for you.

What is? This statement follows a question. Screwtape is trying to illustrate how your points don't connect for many of us. This is an example for me. What is the trend? Finding your posts confusing? Pointing that out? Challenging you on the claims you make? If so, that's been happening for a while now. If you're referring to something else, unironically, I don't follow.

I understand very well what's going here.  How is making my case an irrelevant point?  It has been my goal from the get go to tie abortion to mental illness.  This is an abortion thread and that quote you posted is my case about mental health and abortion.  The least you could have done was explain WHY it's irrelevant.   When you don't you just come across as a pompous a$$. 

I did. I even posted a pretty little picture, remember?

  The 3 links are obviously meant to be together.  Not divided as you have done.  Own it. 

Together they don't support the statement you're making. Separately they don't support the statement you're making. You'll learn more about studies and what they show and what they don't show and what practical information can be extrapolated in school.

There's no shame in losing an argument with me.

No doubt. My philosophy is that once you know you're wrong about something, you're no longer wrong. I'd rather see where I'm wrong and correct my opinion according to information than to continue assuming something that is factually untrue. As it so happens, I did a really quick search about abortion and mental health. I found a few interesting studies. Predictably, the jury is out. Some studies show one thing, some show another. We need more time to collect and analyze more data.

One study shows you're correct, that the mental health of women pre-abortion is statistically significantly more challenged than the mental health of women pre-birth (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3929105/). That's pretty interesting, and something I didn't know. I suspect you didn't know either or you would have offered a direct source, not a list of articles that talk about both issues in the same page.

Your premise was faulty, but your conclusion was correct. Before you congratulate yourself for having made your point, you didn't. I believe Jaime explained as well as I, no doubt better than I. It's not enough to stumble on the correct conclusion if your understanding is flawed all along. That approach doesn't bode for success. It's a lucky strike at best. Again, you'll learn how to find and analyze data in school, assuming this is an accredited school for an accredited degree.

But I suspect this isn't really your point at all. I think you just got lucky with my find here, but not so lucky after all. I say this because you have argued that abortion could cause mental health challenges and that counseling functions to decrease that risk. If I understand your argument, identifying women with mental health challenges prior to abortions would prevent some degree of follow-up mental health challenges subsequent to abortions.

The problem is, data doesn't support the theory that abortions stress the mental health of women in a statistically significant way. That is to say, a woman with a mood disorder doesn't find her mood disorder increases after an abortion. However, it is more likely to increase after giving birth. This article explains more and has links to sources: https://www.salon.com/2016/12/14/abortion-isnt-linked-with-mental-illness-study-shows-but-being-denied-one-might-be/

So what I take away from this is women who face mental challenges recognize that raising or giving up children is likely to be more stress than they can feasibly manage. Abortion then is a positive option that decreases the risk of increased mental, emotional, social, and economic strain. This is a good thing! This is an empowering option for women! Furthermore, pre-abortion counseling for the sake of preventing after-abortion mental health challenges is as useless as Scientology approach to treating your thetan for mental health. It's pseudoscience bunk, drummed up by conservatives to maintain control over the sexual behavior of women.

 
If the only female issue you care about is the right to abort you are a dangerous non advocate of women's issues. 

This is an example of what I was saying at the very beginning. I interpret this comment to be in response to an argument that I only care about abortion with regard to female issues. Leaving aside the fact I don't know what you mean by "female issues," I've not said, suggested, or even remotely implied such a thing. From where do you get this idea? Why do you argue against it? It was never a part of the conversation, it is not within the context of anything we've said to each other. I find myself scratching my head trying to figure out how you come to this conclusion in the absence of any context.

 
Do you own stock? 

???

 
Why can't you just let me out of this thread?

No one is forcing you to stay.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2017, 07:09:51 PM »
Albeto if you will read back through my posts I said abortion itself does not cause mental illness.  Since you have missed that it's hard to take you analysis concerning my understanding seriously. 

I didn't get lucky I worked hard.  I put about 5 hours into #146.  I actually had something better after a few hours and I hit a button on my computer that caused me to lose all that hard wirk.  I hope you understand the level of frustration in

1. you completely missing relevant statements and then presenting a case about my understanding. 

A lot of times I don't finish your posts because that kind of language drives me crazy and you know it.  I even agreed with the OP. 

2. I had another reason but I forgot what it was. 

I'll be going to a credited community college.  To get an Associated Arts degree.  After thaT a university.  Some classes are on line.

I'm excited about learning for sure.

I don't think I do too bad for a 9th grade drop out.  Imagine me  on more education. 
Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man...Thomas Paine

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2017, 07:11:24 PM »
I did get my ged in 2002.  It was a breeze. 
Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man...Thomas Paine

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2017, 09:51:18 PM »
Albeto if you will read back through my posts I said abortion itself does not cause mental illness. 

This comment ties into my last post. No one suggested that you did. Nevertheless, you said, "the majority of women have some form of mental illness already and the abortion intensifies the pre-existing condition." The first part turns out to be true. I did not know that, so I learned something new. I did not learn that from you. I linked the study that I found showing this. The second part is factually untrue, in fact abortion does not intensify pre-existing conditions. However, live-birth is more likely to do just that when women face an unwanted pregnancy. Now you and I know it is unethical to counsel women out of abortions when they seek them, especially women who already face mental and emotional health challenges.

You say you're "for reducing the amount of abortions because of mental illness." However, the data suggests women with mental health challenges face less mental and emotional challenges following abortions than they do following a live birth, with regard to unwanted pregnancies. Such a policy that you support would make women suffer more, not less. In short, the things you say you support are known to be worse for women's mental and emotional well-being. This is why I don't agree it's hyperbole to say the things you support, and the arguments you use to support them, are detrimental to women. It's detrimental because we know it reduces emotional and mental well-being, in addition to reducing the rate of economic independence, education, and increasing the rate of poverty and the risk of suffering domestic violence.

1. you completely missing relevant statements and then presenting a case about my understanding. 

By now you recognize I'm not the only one confused.

A lot of times I don't finish your posts because that kind of language drives me crazy and you know it.  I even agreed with the OP. 

I didn't know it, and I don't know what kind of language to which you are referring.

I'll be going to a credited community college.  To get an Associated Arts degree.  After thaT a university.  Some classes are on line.

I'm excited about learning for sure.

I don't think I do too bad for a 9th grade drop out.  Imagine me  on more education.

That's awesome. I wish you well.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #193 on: Yesterday at 12:15:14 AM »
@JAIME I CARE about you not caring about good reasons to implement a plan that would improve the problem of suffering.  There's no good reasons to shave my legs but I do it.  Modernity to me is moving away from the savagery from our past.  Not using our reptilian and primal parts of our brains instead using the logic and creative parts.
What plan?  The one where you argue that we should throw the whole idea that women should be able to decide for themselves whether or not to have an abortion out the window so you can focus on other things that you personally deem more important?  Or is it the one where you argue that we should go for the same failed "abstinence only" idea that anti-abortion groups have been pushing for years to no real effect?  Neither of those are anything resembling plans.  They are, at best, ideas, and frankly, do not come across like you've given them even five minutes of actual consideration, never mind the level of consideration you'd need to have given them to make them capable of anything but causing a train wreck.

There's also the problem that you're essentially appealing to novelty here.  Progress doesn't mean embracing things because they "move away from the savagery of our past".

Quote from: junebug72
Controlling your sex drive drive is reasonable not controlling your sex drive is impulsive and indicates you're using your primal brain.
This sort of facile rhetoric doesn't accomplish anything except to convince people that you aren't worth listening to.

Quote from: junebug72
Religion has failed with their scary tactics to address this issue.  If humanism can do it then yay for humanism.
As I said earlier, the easiest way to resolve the issue of abortion is to simply make contraception as widely available as possible, so that those who don't want to have children don't have to worry about pregnancy.  I won't say there's no other way to resolve it, but I will say that ideas like "let's ban it so we can focus on other stuff" or "let's propose abstinence as the alternative" will not accomplish anything meaningful.

Quote from: junebug72
I would understand what you're saying about compromise if you would give an example of a working compromise.  Jaime I literally fear another civil war if not for hope of compromising or bipartisan accomplishment.
Why do you need me to give you an example of a workable compromise?  You have internet access, you can Google "what is a working compromise" and find out for yourself.

Quote from: junebug72
Jaime does it really matter if we resolve abortion if we don't resolve climate change?   I guess you don't know a meemaw's love.  I literally have visions of My grandson and his children smothering to death or dying from radiation exposure because our atmosphere that protects us from those blasts from the sun that makes the Aurora lights visible will be gone.
What I bolded in this section was completely and absolutely inappropriate of you to say, junebug.  You do not have any business suggesting that other members have personality flaws - such as that they don't know a mother's love - because they don't agree with you on some policy issue.  Don't do it again.

I have to wonder at this point how much you actually understand climate change.  For one thing, what you're describing conflates at least two things which are not really related to climate change, ozone depletion (which protects us from harmful solar radiation) and Earth's magnetic field (which prevents the atmosphere from being ablated away).  Climate change is a different issue entirely.  The most likely effects of it are to have climates become warmer over time due to more heat being retained - which wouldn't do a lot of good for a lot of people, but would be great for Earth's ecosystems - and to have it cause the reverse effect of making Earth colder by shutting down flows of warm air and water and increasing the amount of heat that gets reflected from Earth.

Of the two, global cooling would be the more disastrous by far.  I have read up about this and the idea of billions of people dying due to colder climates destroying crops all over the world makes this a high priority to solve.  But that does not justify throwing other important issues under the bus due to the false hope that by surrendering on other issues, you can get people to focus on that. 

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In lieu of that I would toss abortion in a red hot minute if it meant getting what I want.  It is the prettiest carrot to dangle.
Except that you don't have the least idea if dangling that 'carrot' will give you what you want.  Not only that, but if your idea of negotiation is to dangle a carrot as bait, you have too much to learn about it to be any good at it.

Quote from: junebug72
You know them right wingers are not going to get implants after the problems that have been reported.  BTW why you only talking about female implants.  Men's birth control means are much safer than women's.   Birth control does affect hair growth.  There are valid reasons why women are skeptical of the different forms of birth control.  You guys get reversible vasectomy instead. ;)
Why do you think I was talking about female implants?  I was talking about stuff that (probably) doesn't exist just yet, but that is within the realm of possibility.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #194 on: Yesterday at 12:03:37 PM »
Albeto you did learn it from me.  Without my insistence to recognize the relationship between abortion and mental illness you wouldn't have searched.  Therefor I get some credit.  .

I am not responsible for your eyes seeing something I did not write or something that I corrected that you missed.  Don't try using the fallacy of ad populum.  I have adamantly shielded my position from the straw man that keeps getting put forward that I said abortions cause mental illness or that all abortions are because of mental illness.

I can't say it any plainer.  I actually said, in a post to you, that women with mental health issues needed legal abortion more than anybody.   I'm not going to do the work for you.  If it was before #146 I amended my position/statements to most accurately describe my position and offer proof that it's not just personal experience.  I think you all need to realize that sometimes you do learn from your own experiences and that nobody can change what is objective in your life.  What part of I agree with the OP don't you get?  I am not being detrimental to women's needs.  You were before you found out I was right.  You were hyper-focused on 1 aspect of women's issues and I was focused on more.  I plea not guilty to the charge of being detrimental to women's issues and throw it back to you.  I definitely felt no concern from you at all about the abuse i suffered.  That is a lot more detrimental to women than abortion. 

Jaime since you didn't put that in green I'm going to ignore it.  It's just talk man.  Oh the left and right would like to see the first amendment shredded to pieces.  No freedom of self expression 'round here.  Wouldn't it have been more right to simply say I do understand your fear and a grandmother's love instead of attacking me?  Do you believe determinism is true Jaime?  I just said I dropped out in the 9th grade.  Yet you expect me to converse on a college level.  That's irrational on your part.

What is this forum for if not teach and share?  Y'all confuse the hell out of me.  Smells a lot like hypocrisy.  Just tell the theists to go google does god exist.  Tell them to google TOE and TBB.  If I could teach anybody anything in this day and time where so many Americans are under-educated I would do it for myself because you have to live in the same world with us idiots.

Plan wasn't the right word I'll give you that.  Idea is the correct word.  I was going to start a thread about how sex can cause suffering but now I know I'm not ready.   

 



Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man...Thomas Paine

Offline albeto

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #195 on: Yesterday at 03:18:00 PM »
Albeto you did learn it from me.  Without my insistence to recognize the relationship between abortion and mental illness you wouldn't have searched.  Therefor I get some credit.  .

Nope. Not only did your links not say what you thought they did, they don't work together to support what you claim. The only credit  you get is inspiring me to look it up myself and finding information that not only doesn't support what you said (insecurity=mental illness > abortion), but coincidentally states the same conclusion (higher incidence of mental health issues). Bad luck for you, nothing supports your proposed solution, namely abstinence and counseling to avoid unwanted pregnancies. In fact, as has been shown time and again, both increase the very issues you say you're trying to help women avoid, such as unwanted pregnancy and subsequent poverty and mental health challenges. 

I am not being detrimental to women's needs. 

You are insofar as you support counseling prior to abortion and abstinence as solutions to unwanted pregnancies. You do recognize now that teaching abstinence as a solution against unwanted pregnancy doesn't work, right? You do recognize now that mental health challenges increase with live birth as opposed to abortion with regard to unwanted pregnancy, right? So counseling a woman to maintain the unwanted pregnancy would not help her mental and emotional health, it would add stress and increase mental and emotional challenges. You understand that now, right? You do realize by now that the idea of counseling women seeking abortion is a hypocritical, misogynist approach that is offensive to women in general, right? If you maintain support of these policies, you maintain support of policies that *are* detrimental to women, regardless of how much you want to deny it. That's just avoiding the facts in order to maintain a personal belief.

What is this forum for if not teach and share?  Y'all confuse the hell out of me.

This much is apparent. When you respond to a claim no one makes it does appear as if you're confused. It is my impression that you tend to respond as if these confusing statements are really somehow personal attacks. I'm not the first to notice this, and even sweet Emma has been on the receiving end of your... confusion.

When disagreeing with a claim is mistaken for a personal attack, learning cannot take place. There's a lack of progress when the point has been missed and another has become the focus of one's attention. Hopefully school will help you with this. If you don't like to be disagreed with, perhaps consider playing devil's advocate with your own thoughts before posting them. See if you can't figure out what someone might say to disagree with it and then explore those possibilities. Like anything else, practice helps build this skill. I think posters here are generally and genuinely interested in helping people develop these skills. These are the very skills that free a mind from religious indoctrination after all, and are the cognitive muscle that sets humans apart in this unique way from other animals. Why not develop it more? That's why I'm here too.
 

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #196 on: Yesterday at 06:37:33 PM »
Jaime since you didn't put that in green I'm going to ignore it.
Consider it put in green.  While I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to be provocative or insulting with what you said, the fact is that you did come across that way.  And if someone tells you that something you said or did was inappropriate, it isn't a good idea to ignore it just because they aren't a moderator (or aren't wearing their moderator hat at the time).

How you treat others outside the forum is your business, but on this forum, there are rules governing the conduct of users.  One of those rules is to not write things which provoke hostile emotional responses from other members.  So if someone tells you that something you wrote was inappropriate, it's a good bet that they, at least, saw it as trying to provoke them into a hostile/emotional response.  It's just better to avoid that if it's at all possible.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #197 on: Yesterday at 07:08:01 PM »
Now that my moderator hat is off, I'd like to point something out for your edification, junebug.

You've said that you dropped out of school in 9th grade, and that you thus shouldn't be expected to converse at a college level.  But being able to do basic research using the internet onto a subject to check your facts does not require college-level skills.  More to the point, you shouldn't be trying to excuse mistakes you made regarding things you thought you knew by saying that your lack of formal education is responsible for them.

We're not talking about subjects like trigonometry or calculus, after all.  We're talking about things you say which are factually wrong, when the relevant facts can be looked up on the internet fairly easily.  I check things I want to say all the time, precisely because it is pretty easy to check them due to the existence of the internet.  And more to the point, even if I ended up being wrong about what I wanted to say, it's still a positive learning experience.

It's ultimately up to you, but I've always found it to be much more beneficial to keep an open mind and listen to others in the conversation, than to get upset because they're able to point out flaws or problems with my argument.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Op-Ed: Stop calling abortion a 'difficult decision'
« Reply #198 on: Yesterday at 10:46:59 PM »
Screwtape it started the moment you said my friends should have 20 abortions. 

Nuh-uh. I did not say that.  You're the one who said they were shit parents.  I said:
If they are terrible parents, I would hope they get abortions every time they get pregnant. I don't care if that's just once or if it's 20 times a year.

I hope you can see the difference.  You need to read more carefully so as to not go off half cocked.  Remember when you first came to the forum?  You did that all the time.  You got better at it, but you're still not perfect.  Neither am I.


I was diagnosed by a psychologist. 

Great.  But unless she also sat with your friends, she cannot diagnose them.  That would be irresponsible.

Do you really think I'm the only little girl who had a traumatic childhood that's had an abortion?

Of course I don't, but neither was that my claim.  You appeared to be flat out saying only people with mental or emotional trauma would have abortions.  I said that was incorrect and I stand by that.  I am sure traumatized women have had abortions.  They have also had a litters of children.  Similarly, non-traumatized women have also had abortions. 

All I'm asking you to do is look deeper into issues such as child abuse and poverty and how those two things, especially when both are present affect behaviors that put you at high risk of needing an abortion.  That's all I've asked you for. 

I've never denied that, but then, you haven't articulated it clearly either.

The north isn't any more honest. 

It is, but that wasn't my point.  My point was in the south, anti abortion assholes are more common.  And anti abortion assholes are liars.

Screwtape if women don't talk about their abuse  how will it ever get better.  I'm free to talk about my experience.  The first ammendment is a thing.  Honestly attempting to shame me for knocked off some of that respect if not all of it.

Reading way too much into what I said.  I said it wasn't a good idea. Not that you couldn't or weren't allowed to.  Just that in this forum, keeping personal stuff private is probably the best idea.

You obviously are not interested in my truth.  Are you going to say Azdgari should not have told of his wife's abortion.  My experience is on topic?  If not well that's being a hypocrite.

You and Az are not the same, thus not need to treat you the same.  I wouldn't share that if I were him, but he is more judicious about these things than you.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.