Author Topic: Why would God fear your curiosity?  (Read 7402 times)

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Offline learnin

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #290 on: April 07, 2012, 12:21:01 AM »


I will tell them that GOD will teach them as in the same way He has taught many, including me. By faith.

So, God spoke to you directly and told you what to believe?   Your children will be waiting a long time if that's the case.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #291 on: April 07, 2012, 04:02:14 AM »
I'm just trying to meet you on your plane since you refuse to come to mine. Stubbornness does not mean your right btw. What are you so afraid of? I entertain your thoughts, but mine are too "delusional" for you to consider. Sounds like you are all stuck thinking inside a box. A comfy, cozy box that allows you to blame a god that you say doesn't exist for the worlds problems.

Who is delusional now?

Monica, they are asking you those questions to try to make you understand that the bible God's behavior is cruel and paradoxical, hoping to lead you to the realization that he is not real, but because of the way they're phrasing their questions, ie. assume God exists then ask you to explain his behavior, you think that deep down we actually do believe in God, but we're simply angry at him.

They are, in fact, meeting you on your plane, which I believe only reinforces your belief in God and explains why you called us delusional. We blame something we claim to have no belief in for the world's problems, we must be nuts. You should try to understand that their questions are rhetorical. They are not lost children asking for help in understanding Him so that they may be found. They do not want you to answer the questions but to think about them and understand why they are being asked.

An intelligent, moral, rational person must have so many questions regarding God's plan, his seemingly bipolar behavior, why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, contradictions in his rules, the fact that the historical parts of the bible don't match up with the historical texts of those nations it mentions, the scientific parts of the bible aren't accurate, the miracles in the bible left no evidence and were not documented by any scholars of the day.

If I ask you a question on your terms, that is, I assume God exists and ask you to explain these things, you reach in to your pocket and pull out some form of non-answer that usually boils down to "we can't understand God, he is smarter than us."

If, on the other hand you are willing to meet us on our terms and consider for a moment that God does not exist, you will notice that all of those questions simply go away, and the world makes perfect sense.

Why do good things happen to bad people, and vice versa? Why does a coin sometimes land on heads, and sometimes on tails? Random chance. Add to that the fact that bad people are more willing to step on others to get ahead and it's simply no wonder why bad people often seem to get a better deal.

Why does the bible contradict itself? Why does God's behavior seem erratic? Because it's a collection of stories written by many authors over hundreds of years. When the writer wants God to be merciful, God is merciful. When the writer hates women, God hates women. An perfect being would not contradict itself, wouldn't create a flawed suffering, wouldn't be vain, selfish, or stupid. But people are all of those things, and people created God in their image.

Why don't the historical parts of the bible match up with the historical texts of the nations mentioned? Because it's simply a story. Nobody wrote about Jesus' miracles because he never performed any. Nobody wrote about the exodus because there wasn't one. Note that I am talking about independent, corroborative evidence, not the writings of the bible itself. I'm sure you understand how the bible is no more evidence for God's existence than The Sorcerer's Stone is evidence for Harry Potter's existence.

Julius Caesar lived around the same time as Jesus. Hundreds of separate people wrote about him, his family, and his actions in diaries and personal letters and official government documents such as census and military records. The nations he waged war with have records of those wars and describe him. Paintings and statues from the time period depicting him clearly show the same man. He had descendants, his family was well documented. There is no evidence of a historical Jesus. None at all.

Instead of fumbling for excuses and rationalizations for why the bible doesn't make sense, or why there's no evidence for God or Jesus when there certainly should be if they really did the things they claim, you'll notice how much easier it is to answer all of those questions when you realize that they just don't exist.

Now, as for those tough life questions that you think you need God to answer, such as where do we come from if God did not create everything? Well, science has come a long way in answering that, I suggest you check out some books on the big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution, but we may never know the exact details. You have to be mature and accept that fact instead of making up fairy tales to fill in the blanks.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 05:18:06 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #292 on: April 07, 2012, 05:40:20 AM »
Your sister's baby went straight to heaven.  Yours will suffer this earth for decades to come, and then......well, consider this possibility.  Your child will become one of the truly evil people you spoke of earlier, designied that way by your god.  YOUR CHILD.....because every one of those "evil people" was someone's child.  You thought it was fine for your god to send them to hell - I presume you are okay with your god doing that to YOUR child?  Can you explain  why it is fair, or just, for your god to make your child evil and send them to hell as some kind of life lesson for other people?

Anfauglir, I don't think it's wise or useful to engage in this type of discussion on her terms. And by her terms I mean assuming God exists and then trying to explain his actions. She will find an excuse, they always do. Instead, I think we need to help her understand why she believes in God, and why that belief is wrong. Any line of questioning that begins with "Well, if there is a God, then why X?" will simply result in her reaching for her magic explainerator.

Yeah.  Because that was the whole of my plan - it wasn't stage one, or anything like that: I had no follow up questions.  So I'll bow out and let you have a clear run.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #293 on: April 07, 2012, 03:10:56 PM »
I'll be called evil or ignorant or this, but if my child has to suffer to save others, that is something I am willing to accept as God's plan. It is important that we give of ourselves to each other to maintain our existence. If my child is selfish enough to never do that and he becomes  one of those "evil people", then at least, if God so determines, his life would not be wasted if it is used to benefit others. I believe this is only a problematic idea when people try to take the determining of whose is evil into their own hands. Then we are behaving selfishly instead of trying to focus on and better ourselves, and that is why we cannot progress as a society. If people behaved as though a hypothetical God would have them do, then that would help us. It would be crucial, however, that the concept of that God were based on love, joy, self-control, kindness, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, and faithfulness; not ourselves as God, which many follow.

MonicaLynn;

We are not just trying to be argumentative. The point many of us are trying to make to you is very simple: god is not neccessary to explain the world. A supernatural being adds nothing to our understanding. It only creates more questions, that you have to ignore or wave away.

Human beings everywhere, including people with no knowledge of or belief in any gods,  have always had the positive qualities that your god supposedly gives to believers ("love, joy, self-control, kindness, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, and faithfulness"). And the same goes for all the negative qualities like selfishness, which are just human nature, not some kind of flaw or "sin".

You may not want to believe this, but this is a documented fact: the countries and regions of the world where people are less religious (like Japan, Denmark and Canada) are nicer places to live. They are safer, healthier, more peaceful, have less crime, are happier, have higher education levels, longer life spans, fewer people in prison, give generously to charity, etc.

The more people rely on rational and scientific ideas to solve problems, the better their lives are. Praying to supernatual beings and trying to derive meaning from ancient myths does not improve people's lives in any way.[1] If god was needed to make people good, why would less reliance on god make people better off?

If you wave questions like that away, you are admitting that your religious belief makes no logical sense, and your god does not really do what you think he does. :-\
 1. other than some temporary endorphin boost,  the exact same effect as non-religious meditation, or doing some fun recreational activity
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #294 on: April 07, 2012, 11:09:58 PM »

So, God spoke to you directly and told you what to believe?   Your children will be waiting a long time if that's the case.
Really...

What is the point in this...? Is this really called for...?

If this is the case, then so be it. I would rather trust in GOD and His perfect timing than anything else.

And if you think raising my child to have faith in GOD is wrong, I'd never want to be right.


Seriously.

GOD has been the best thing in my life. Always.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #295 on: April 07, 2012, 11:16:28 PM »
And if you think raising my child to have faith in GOD is wrong, I'd never want to be right.

*in a high-pitched sing-songy voice*

IIIIINNNDOCTRINAAAAAAAAAAAAATIOONNNNN!

ILOVEYOU, you should read those last posts by me and nogodsforme that were directed at Monicalynn (#291 and #293). The same goes for you, so how would you respond to them?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #296 on: April 07, 2012, 11:20:29 PM »


GOD has been the best thing in my life. Always.

So god ranks above your own children............

I think that alone says more about you then every atheist on here ever could.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #297 on: April 07, 2012, 11:33:04 PM »

*in a high-pitched sing-songy voice*

IIIIINNNDOCTRINAAAAAAAAAAAAATIOONNNNN!

ILOVEYOU, you should read those last posts by me and nogodsforme that were directed at Monicalynn (#291 and #293). The same goes for you, so how would you respond to them?

Which posts specifically...?

And really. I don't care what you call it or even how it came about. I believe in GOD. And I have asked myself this question more than once in my life. So if you call it indoctrination.... Fine then, I don't care. But the refining of my beliefs have come not from indoctrination but of GODS correction. So if you think I have not challenged my beliefs, you are wrong. GOD challenges ones beliefs, just as Jesus Christ did. So try stepping out of indoctrination for once in your life and take a leap of faith in GOD.






Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #298 on: April 07, 2012, 11:35:44 PM »
Yeah.  Because that was the whole of my plan - it wasn't stage one, or anything like that: I had no follow up questions.  So I'll bow out and let you have a clear run.

Anfauglir, I was not trying to be antagonistic, it's just that I see the same tactics used with new theist guests again and again, and I don't see it working. Obviously I understand what you were doing, but did it get results? Does it ever? Whenever you ask a "If God exists, then why X?" kind of question, can they ever not answer it with their magic explainerator?

Worse yet, they may fail to realize that the questions are rhetorical. They might think we're genuinely trying to understand God so that we may find our way back to Him. They might think "Oh? Even atheists believe in God, they just don't understand Him." I honestly think those types of questions simply reinforce their delusion.

I think it may be get better results if we avoid asking them questions like that and instead focus on teaching them about why they believe, and why that belief is wrong. Helping them understand hyper-active agent detection for example, since that phenomenon is the main reason why they continue to believe in God.

Ask them questions they haven't been asked before. Questions that do not assume God exists. Questions they can't answer, hopefully that make them think.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline learnin

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #299 on: April 07, 2012, 11:36:30 PM »

If this is the case, then so be it. I would rather trust in GOD and His perfect timing than anything else.

And if you think raising my child to have faith in GOD is wrong, I'd never want to be right.

So now you change your story.  This is what you wrote before:

"I will tell them that GOD will teach them as in the same way He has taught many, including me. By faith."

Which is it?  Is God teaching them the faith or are you teaching them?

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #300 on: April 07, 2012, 11:39:23 PM »


GOD has been the best thing in my life. Always.

So god ranks above your own children............

I think that alone says more about you then every atheist on here ever could.

GOD gave me life. GOD gave me a second chance at life. GOD gave me my children. GOD gave me a second chance at a family. Gave me a second chance with my children. Without Him, I'd be nothing, nor would I have anything.

GOD is the head of our household.

And by loving my children the way GOD desires one to love their children, we are honoring His command to love one another. Which is putting Him first.

So what point are you trying to make here...? Do you even have one...?


Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #301 on: April 07, 2012, 11:44:21 PM »
Which is it?  Is God teaching them the faith or are you teaching them?

GOD needs no help but there is no harm in passing my faith on to my children.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #302 on: April 07, 2012, 11:47:46 PM »
GOD gave me life.

What part did your (supposed) parents play?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Ice Monkey

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #303 on: April 07, 2012, 11:50:23 PM »


GOD gave me life. GOD gave me a second chance at life. GOD gave me my children...<snip>

Multiple virgin births in one family? 

That would be pretty convincing.
Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion." -- Charlie Chaplin

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #304 on: April 07, 2012, 11:50:51 PM »
What part did your (supposed) parents play?

My Parents played the role of my Parents.  :P

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #305 on: April 07, 2012, 11:55:03 PM »

And really. I don't care what you call it or even how it came about. I believe in GOD. And I have asked myself this question more than once in my life. So if you call it indoctrination.... Fine then, I don't care. But the refining of my beliefs have come not from indoctrination but of GODS correction. So if you think I have not challenged my beliefs, you are wrong. GOD challenges ones beliefs, just as Jesus Christ did. So try stepping out of indoctrination for once in your life and take a leap of faith in GOD.

So which is it? does god challenge your beliefs or was it you?And how did he challenge your beliefs if he caused you to believe them in the first place?

GOD gave me life. GOD gave me a second chance at life. GOD gave me my children. GOD gave me a second chance at a family. Gave me a second chance with my children. Without Him, I'd be nothing, nor would I have anything.

GOD is the head of our household.

Then what if god told you to kill your children? I assume you would do it then. In the bible god commands you to beat your children, would you do that as well? In Ezekiel he causes the parents of Jerusalem to kill their children and consume them. Are you all right with that too if god wants it?

And by loving my children the way GOD desires one to love their children, we are honoring His command to love one another. Which is putting Him first.

So what point are you trying to make here...? Do you even have one...?

The one you just made. That you care more about the god that only exists in your fantasies than you do about people, even your own children. Your children only have value in your eyes because of god.Do you understand how sad it is that you care about that little. That you care so little about yourself. Do you understand what a truly twisted and warped view of reality that is? To only see worth through the eyes of something that you can't even know for certain exists.

I LOVE YOU, and I say with  this great sincerity. You need professional help. If not for your sake then for the sake of your children.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #306 on: April 07, 2012, 11:57:42 PM »
GOD gave me life.

No he didn't. Your parents did.

Quote
GOD gave me a second chance at life.

No he didn't. You did that for yourself. Your delusional belief in God may have been a catalyst for change, but your imaginary deity did nothing.

Quote
GOD gave me my children.

No he didn't. Did you not have sex with your wife to create them?

Quote
GOD gave me a second chance at a family.

No he didn't. You did that for yourself. Your delusional belief in God may have been a catalyst for change, but your imaginary deity did nothing.

Quote
Gave me a second chance with my children.

No he didn't. You did that for yourself. Your delusional belief in God may have been a catalyst for change, but your imaginary deity did nothing.

Quote
Without Him, I'd be nothing, nor would I have anything.

Without him, you'd have the dignity of a man with his own sense of reason and morality.

Quote
GOD is the head of our household.

Absentee parenting. No wonder so many of his children go astray.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #307 on: April 08, 2012, 12:02:00 AM »

Absentee parenting. No wonder so many of his children go astray.

I don't know. I'd say "abusive" is more accurate.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #308 on: April 08, 2012, 12:06:40 AM »
So try stepping out of indoctrination for once in your life and take a leap of faith in GOD.

Many of us are former christians.

That means we DID "step out of indoctrination".


Of course, in this case, it meant going away from a leap of faith in god....  :blank:
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #309 on: April 08, 2012, 12:07:19 AM »
So which is it? does god challenge your beliefs or was it you?And how did he challenge your beliefs if he caused you to believe them in the first place?
Yes, GOD challenges a persons beliefs. It's called faith.

Quote
Then what if god told you to kill your children? I assume you would do it then. In the bible god commands you to beat your children, would you do that as well? In Ezekiel he causes the parents of Jerusalem to kill their children and consume them. Are you all right with that too if god wants it?
GOD wouldn't do that. I know that it wouldn't be GOD. GOD has always responded  by my faith in Him and always with love. Although chastening isn't always pleasant, it is done with in love and hope.


Quote
The one you just made. That you care more about the god that only exists in your fantasies than you do about people, even your own children. Your children only have value in your eyes because of god.Do you understand how sad it is that you care about that little. That you care so little about yourself. Do you understand what a truly twisted and warped view of reality that is? To only see worth through the eyes of something that you can't even know for certain exists.

I LOVE YOU, and I say with  this great sincerity. You need professional help. If not for your sake then for the sake of your children.

You only hear what you want to hear and are only projecting. And it isn't only me but my wife knows as well. i have forced nothing on her. She knows just as well as I know. We willfully believe and have received.

So your statement is rather presumptuous.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #310 on: April 08, 2012, 12:13:45 AM »




That means we DID "step out of indoctrination".

Great...!!!!!


Quote
Of course, in this case, it meant going away from a leap of faith in god....  :blank:
Bummer......

Offline Alzael

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #311 on: April 08, 2012, 12:16:29 AM »
GOD wouldn't do that. I know that it wouldn't be GOD. GOD has always responded  by my faith in Him and always with love. Although chastening isn't always pleasant, it is done with in love and hope.

Then how do you explain all of the times he does exactly that in the bible? If god wouldn't do the exact same things that he outright says that he does/did how do you know he'll really do/does the things that he talls you.

You only hear what you want to hear and are only projecting.

Interesting claim. Let's look at the next part.

And it isn't only me but my wife knows as well. i have forced nothing on her. She knows just as well as I know. We willfully believe and have received.

So your statement is rather presumptuous.

I note that none of this really responds to anything that I said. For example "i have forced nothing on her". I'm curious as to at which point I indicated that you had forced anything on anyone. There really seems no need to say this. Just as nothing else that you said really fits into the context of what I actually wrote.

So maybe you're the one who's only hearing what they want to hear. And maybe, just maybe, you're the one whos actually projecting.

You have my deepest pity.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #312 on: April 08, 2012, 12:27:22 AM »
What part did your (supposed) parents play?

My Parents played the role of my Parents.  :P

Please elaborate.  Did they adopt you from God, and then raise you?  Did God get your mother pregnant, like Mary with Jesus?  Inquiring minds want to know.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline learnin

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #313 on: April 08, 2012, 12:32:31 AM »


GOD gave me life.

ILY, a female co-worker related a story to my fellow workers, and myself, last week.  She said a friend of hers had a  4 y.o. child playing against an upstairs screened window about a week ago.  One of her sisters pushed her against the screen and the screen gave way.  The child tumbled onto the inclined porch roof.
She tumbled off the roof and fell to the porch.  The little girl came walking in the house crying and the mother did not know what had happened until the sister came running downstairs to inform the mother that sissy had fallen off the roof.  The child only had a scratch.  When the mother related this happening to my co-worker, my co-worker informed the parent (they attend bible class together) that, as the little girl was tumbling, her guardian angel grabbed her legs and lowered her softly to the porch!

My co-worker couldn't wait to relay this "miracle" to the rest of us.  I was laughing inside.  I wanted to say:  "Right now, in this world of ours, there are probably several thousand children, under the age of 10, who are getting raped and sodomized by a father, a kidnapper, a brother, an uncle, etc.  You say this little girl was saved by her guardian angel while the guardian angels of these other two thousand children are sitting on their spiritual asses as their children get raped!

ILY, you say God gave you life.  On the very day you were born, there were a hundred thousand other fetuses that were miscarried and flushed into the toilet, dropped on the floor, stillborn, etc.

I don't want to destroy your belief in a spiritual being if it makes you happy.  But what you attribute to God, even the Bible itself, is more easily explained by natural occurences and random chance.  For instance, men wrote the books of the bible and you attribute it to God.  You teach your children to believe and you attribute this to God. 

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #314 on: April 08, 2012, 12:44:41 AM »
<snip>

I don't have all of the answers. I merely live one day at a time, as we all do. And have experienced some uneasy situations myself w/ unanswered questions. It's hard sometimes. But I know there is more to it. I have been through to much to deny it and more importantly am very thankful.

Offline ILOVEYOU

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #315 on: April 08, 2012, 12:50:44 AM »
What part did your (supposed) parents play?

My Parents played the role of my Parents.  :P

Please elaborate.  Did they adopt you from God, and then raise you?  Did God get your mother pregnant, like Mary with Jesus?  Inquiring minds want to know.
No, Jesus is Jesus. I am just a man loved by GOD and loves GOD. My parents are my parents who got it on one day. Physically. I don't exactly know how it all works out though. Maybe one of these days The Lord will let me know if it's His will.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #316 on: April 08, 2012, 01:03:56 AM »
ILOVEYOU, please read posts #291 and #293 and reply to them.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Online Azdgari

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #317 on: April 08, 2012, 01:10:29 AM »
No, Jesus is Jesus. I am just a man loved by GOD and loves GOD. My parents are my parents who got it on one day. Physically. I don't exactly know how it all works out though. Maybe one of these days The Lord will let me know if it's His will.

Well, you apparently know enough about it to be able to say:

Quote
GOD gave me life.

God supposedly gave life to Adam[1]...but in your case, parents were involved.  They had sex.  Mom got pregnant.  That means that your parents gave you life.

Make sense?  If not, then please spell out exactly what your god did in order to give you life.  If your parents hadn't gone along with the plan by having sex, would you still be alive?
 1. and to Eve, according to one of the Genesis accounts; they differ on that point
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Why would God fear your curiosity?
« Reply #318 on: April 08, 2012, 01:10:51 AM »
I don't want to destroy your belief in a spiritual being if it makes you happy.

While I appreciate your good intentions, I think you're wrong here. Should doctors not try to cure insanity simply because the patient appears happy?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT