Why would God fear your curiosity?

[jdawg70]

Your sister's baby went straight to heaven.  Yours will suffer this earth for decades to come, and then......well, consider this possibility.  Your child will become one of the truly evil people you spoke of earlier, designied that way by your god.  YOUR CHILD.....because every one of those "evil people" was someone's child.  You thought it was fine for your god to send them to hell - I presume you are okay with your god doing that to YOUR child?  Can you explain  why it is fair, or just, for your god to make your child evil and send them to hell as some kind of life lesson for other people?

Anfauglir, I don't think it's wise or useful to engage in this type of discussion on her terms. And by her terms I mean assuming God exists and then trying to explain his actions. She will find an excuse, they always do. Instead, I think we need to help her understand why she believes in God, and why that belief is wrong. Any line of questioning that begins with "Well, if there is a God, then why X?" will simply result in her reaching for her magic explainerator.

Doesn't that cut both ways though?  The magic explainerator can also be utilized to give merit to a belief without one - in particular, the line 'I just know'.

I think the tact of trying to explain why the belief is without merit is warranted and necessary, but I don't think Anfauglir's approach of bringing up the inconsistencies that arise from acceptance of that belief is not useful or unwise.

[MonicaLynn]

I'll be called evil or ignorant or this, but if my child has to suffer to save others, that is something I am willing to accept as God's plan. It is important that we give of ourselves to each other to maintain our existence. If my child is selfish enough to never do that and he becomes  one of those "evil people", then at least, if God so determines, his life would not be wasted if it is used to benefit others. I believe this is only a problematic idea when people try to take the determining of whose is evil into their own hands. Then we are behaving selfishly instead of trying to focus on and better ourselves, and that is why we cannot progress as a society. If people behaved as though a hypothetical God would have them do, then that would help us. It would be crucial, however, that the concept of that God were based on love, joy, self-control, kindness, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, and faithfulness; not ourselves as God, which many follow.

[One Above All]

So your god, despite supposedly being omnipotent, requires lesser beings to do its work for it. Why? Clearly it's not interested in free will. Could it be that... *gasp* it's not real?

[Ice Monkey]

I'll be called evil or ignorant or this, but if my child has to suffer to save others, that is something I am willing to accept as God's plan.

I thought god was all-powerful.  This is the best plan he could come up with?  I think I'd hand the plan back, saying he better crunch those numbers again.  Why would he want you and your child to offer a much greater sacrifice than he and his son offered?  Jesus had a bit of a rough weekend, by choice.  I see no sacrifice, though.  Yet, it would be possible for you to accept the death of your child as something other than a great tragedy?  Step away from the Kool Aide, ML.

ps... even Jesus, depending on which gospel you read, wasn't terribly enthused with the whole sacrifice thing, himself.
A MR. Deity episode comes to mind.

[MonicaLynn]

The paradox is that Christians tend to believe that God is blessing them when they get good fortune. You cannot possibly judge whether God is blessing or cursing you.

God is always blessing me. I especially appreciate the struggle. Call me sick, but I enjoy the pain. Not only because I grow, but because I'm screwed up 

Anyway, I had two of my babies with no meds, and it's not really that bad. I just wonder, in regards to blessings, why I have so much. I'm vey talented at different art forms, rather physically appealing, and have an awesome family. Not much of it has come into fruition, however, without the pain. Actually. None that I can recall. I have three sisters who are a little behind in the talent dept. they were actually mean to me because of t for a while. Now they are finding their own niches and it's great to watch. I don't know the reasons for all these things, but I do feel there s old and ba to everything. It's all about perspective. The concept of God helps me to see more good. Call me ignorant, but I am happy, and I'm much kinder now.

[MonicaLynn]

Tragedy was not used until 1539 and it was for heightened effect of dramatic plays in order to magnify the " great loss" that occurred. For me to say tha it s a great loss if my son should suffer to saves others would be inappropriate in the mathematical sense for a greater good, and downright selfish to declare since his life would have to count or t least more than one to make that equation justifiable. I would be saying then, that he s worth mre because he is MY son. How is that proper?

[Ice Monkey]

Tragedy was not used until 1539 and it was for heightened effect of dramatic plays in order to magnify the " great loss" that occurred. For me to say tha it s a great loss if my son should suffer to saves others would be inappropriate in the mathematical sense for a greater good, and downright selfish to declare since his life would have to count or t least more than one to make that equation justifiable. I would be saying then, that he s worth mre because he is MY son. How is that proper?

You're missing the point.  Back up, and describe a situation, created by god, of course, where it would be necessary in the first place. 

[Omen]

Don't bother with any of that. Assuming God exists then trying to explain why he doesn't make sense is flawed reasoning when hyper-active agent detection not only explains why people invented and believe in gods but also doesn't require any excuses to explain why said gods can't do any of the things they promise.

You're making the faulty assumption she's smart enough to understand any post that doesn't directly bludgeon her with the necessity to argue for her own position.  You're right about her equivocating, but she's going to equivocate to everything and in this case.. not respond to you at all simply because it's too 'wordy'.  She has already accepted a qualification for belief inseparable from delusion or make believe, she'll never care about any formal arguments against that position as her position HAS to be true in every instance.  The only thing left to do is to hammer her with the same question about how does she distinguish her beliefs from delusion and challenge her on the only grounds she knows.. emotionally.

If she admits that she can't, then there is nothing else to do.  She's too stupid, delusional, or dishonest to behave otherwise.  Any further discussion is futile.

[MonicaLynn]

History may help. Mabe if he were an evil member of Hitler's ranks ( not all of them were bad: consult lucifer effect and prison experiments) . One that truly enjoyed hurting people. His heneous acts would serve as the application of struggle that, once enduring it, would strengthen many people. That would hurt of course, but those things are necessary for balance.

[One Above All]

Omnipotence. Your god's options are limitless. Try again.

[Omen]

That would hurt of course, but those things are necessary for balance.

Can an omnipotent omniscient being create existence without suffering and reach the same goals?

[Alzael]

Tragedy was not used until 1539 and it was for heightened effect of dramatic plays in order to magnify the " great loss" that occurred.

Far, far older than that.

[jdawg70]

God is always blessing me. I especially appreciate the struggle. Call me sick, but I enjoy the pain. Not only because I grow, but because I'm screwed up 

Anyway, I had two of my babies with no meds, and it's not really that bad. I just wonder, in regards to blessings, why I have so much. I'm vey talented at different art forms, rather physically appealing, and have an awesome family. Not much of it has come into fruition, however, without the pain. Actually. None that I can recall. I have three sisters who are a little behind in the talent dept. they were actually mean to me because of t for a while. Now they are finding their own niches and it's great to watch. I don't know the reasons for all these things, but I do feel there s old and ba to everything. It's all about perspective. The concept of God helps me to see more good. Call me ignorant, but I am happy, and I'm much kinder now.

Alright.  I get it now.

You don't actually believe in the existence of god.  You believe in belief.  When you say 'god is always blessing me', what you really mean is 'if god exists, he's all loving, so clearly whatever has occurred is a blessing', because your concept of god does not allow for a god who would curse you or anyone else.  The concept of god is what's important to you; the objective reality behind it is, apparently to you, inconsequential.

If my assessment is incorrect, it will really help if you tell me why.

[MonicaLynn]

Wolfram alpha gave me the date tragedy was first used. Is it older?

The reality behind God is inconsequential because it is a moot point to me. If I am wrong, I will see you in the dirt I suppose, but I believe, and therefor it becomes reality for me.

Is this delusional? Perhaps. But what can I say bad of something that has caused me to become a better person to myself and those I love. If you are right, and all we have is the 100- years on this rock we call earth, should I not pursue what helps me to live abundantly in the small time I have? What is reality, information, knowledge, in comparison to love? Are not soe of the happiest people in this world some of the most simple ones?

[Omen]

Is this delusional?

Yes.

But what can I say bad of something that has caused me to become a better person to myself and those I love.

The people who believe in a god within the same terms that also oppose human rights would say the same thing.  You're accepting an absurd level of irresponsibility and calling it 'moral' in your ignorance, while the same ignorance fuels the very hatred and animosity you pretend that your beliefs are not directly linked to and promote.

[MonicaLynn]

Well, I take responsibility for my wn actions and I take them very seriously. My husband knows my darkest secrets. I have prayed about them, and do not repeat them. The smaller ones, I am still accountable for. My aim is to be loving. What is wrong with that?

[jdawg70]

The people who believe in a god within the same terms that also oppose human rights would say the same thing.  You're accepting an absurd level of irresponsibility and calling it 'moral' in your ignorance, while the same ignorance fuels the very hatred and animosity you pretend that your beliefs are not directly linked to and promote.

So yeah, what Omen said.

I want to make sure that the point doesn't get lost though.  TO BE CLEAR - you don't actually believe that god exists?

[jdawg70]

Well, I take responsibility for my wn actions and I take them very seriously. My husband knows my darkest secrets. I have prayed about them, and do not repeat them. The smaller ones, I am still accountable for. My aim is to be loving. What is wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with aim of being loving.  I just don't understand what belief in god (or belief in the belief in god) has to do with that.

[Omen]

Well, I take responsibility for my wn actions and I take them very seriously. My husband knows my darkest secrets. I have prayed about them, and do not repeat them. The smaller ones, I am still accountable for. My aim is to be loving. What is wrong with that?

You're hypocrisy in arbitrarily trying to distance your religious ideology from the violence it has historically promoted.  Your ambiguous all inclusive 'love' has nothing to do with the ideology in the bible and the same level of ignorance you promote within the context of your beliefs equally supports those who would claim otherwise.  They get to call it 'love' as much as you do and you cannot say anything about it without being an immediate hypocrite or intellectually dishonest.

[Alzael]

Wolfram alpha gave me the date tragedy was first used. Is it older?

Only by a few thousand years.

I just looked at Wolfram and the date you used was the known date for the English word. Not for how long it has existed.

The reality behind God is inconsequential because it is a moot point to me. If I am wrong, I will see you in the dirt I suppose, but I believe, and therefor it becomes reality for me.

But it isn't a moot point because you expect your god belief to be taken seriously, instead of treated as ridiculous and crazy.

More to the point, you are also supporting all of the violence and hatred that comes about because of god and religion by trying to portray it as being something worthwhile. You are also contributing to the ignorance that it propagates.

[joebbowers]

God is always blessing me. I especially appreciate the struggle. Call me sick, but I enjoy the pain. Not only because I grow, but because I'm screwed up 

Anyway, I had two of my babies with no meds, and it's not really that bad. I just wonder, in regards to blessings, why I have so much.

You see what happened there? I gave her an explanation of why people believe in gods (hyper-active agent detection) and why that belief is false. Anfauglir asked her a question that assumed God was real.

She ignored mine because it made her uncomfortable, and pounced on Anfauglir's because she already knows how to play that game. She pulled out her explainerator, set it to "God's Plan" and sat back in her cozy chair. Nothing has changed.

Stop debating on their terms. God is not real. Without accepting that simple fact they will always be able to answer every single question with their magic explainerator.

Monica, when something happens that you can not explain, you should not attribute it to an intelligent being. Maybe your children survived and theirs didn't because yours received better nourishment in the womb and were born stronger, or they had better antibodies to resist disease, or the other children received substandard care at the hospital.

The fact is that there is a rational, natural explanation for everything that happens. Everything. Sometimes you may never know what that explanation is, but in those times, you have to simply accept that instead of assuming God did it. That's downright caveman-like thinking, this is the 21st century!

[Ice Monkey]

Wolfram alpha gave me the date tragedy was first used. Is it older?

The reality behind God is inconsequential because it is a moot point to me. If I am wrong, I will see you in the dirt I suppose, but I believe, and therefor it becomes reality for me.

Is this delusional? Perhaps. But what can I say bad of something that has caused me to become a better person to myself and those I love. If you are right, and all we have is the 100- years on this rock we call earth, should I not pursue what helps me to live abundantly in the small time I have? What is reality, information, knowledge, in comparison to love? Are not soe of the happiest people in this world some of the most simple ones?

Credo consolans.
That's a real conversation killer for me.

[jdawg70]

You see what happened there? I gave her an explanation of why people believe in gods (hyper-active agent detection) and why that belief is false. Anfauglir asked her a question that assumed God was real.

She ignored mine because it made her uncomfortable, and pounced on Anfauglir's because she already knows how to play that game. She pulled out her explainerator, set it to "God's Plan" and sat back in her cozy chair. Nothing has changed.

Stop debating on their terms. God is not real. Without accepting that simple fact they will always be able to answer every single question with their magic explainerator.

Monica, when something happens that you can not explain, you should not attribute it to an intelligent being. Maybe your children survived and theirs didn't because yours received better nourishment in the womb and were born stronger, or they had better antibodies to resist disease, or the other children received substandard care at the hospital.

The fact is that there is a rational, natural explanation for everything that happens. Everything. Sometimes you may never know what that explanation is, but in those times, you have to simply accept that instead of assuming God did it. That's downright caveman-like thinking, this is the 21st century!

I'm not sure you're going to be able to make any inroads this way either; I'm not sure she actually believes god is real at this point.  I think, at this point, we're arguing with her over the importance of recognizing objective reality.

MonicaLynn -

As much as I hate posting a link rather than actually presenting you with an argument, response, retort, or answer:
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2010/07/do-you-care-whether-the-things-you-believe-are-true.html

has always been a personal favorite, and I think applicable to you.

Maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't apply.  In that case, we go back to the question of what reasons you have for believing that god exists.

[jaimehlers]

Honestly, this sounds like the same thing a sacrifice who's been reared to believe in the necessity of being sacrificed would say.  "It's okay for me to be sacrificed, because it'll benefit all these other people."  The thing is, though, you have to be able to show that there is an actual benefit to it, not just say it's "God's plan" and it's good because God wouldn't ever do anything that's bad.

[MonicaLynn]

Just so you know my chair is not cozy right now. My day stinks actually. I'll have to revisit this when I'm not grieving. Thanks for chatting with me, and actually, I do believe in God. I'm just trying to meet you on your plane since you refuse to come to mine. Stubbornness does not mean your right btw. What are you so afraid of? I entertain your thoughts, but mine are too "delusional" for you to consider. Sounds like you are all stuck thinking inside a box. A comfy, cozy box that allows you to blame a god that you say doesn't exist for the worlds problems.

Who is delusional now?

#justsaying

[One Above All]

Many of us are former theists. Also, your claim that we're unwilling to "meet you on your plane" conveniently ignores the fact that you've presented no evidence. Evidence is necessary for an idea to be considered by a rational individual. Open mindedness is not the same as acceptance of any and all facts without question. Just because your BS filter has a giant hole in it doesn't mean ours does too.

[Hatter23]

Just so you know my chair is not cozy right now. My day stinks actually. I'll have to revisit this when I'm not grieving. Thanks for chatting with me, and actually, I do believe in God. I'm just trying to meet you on your plane since you refuse to come to mine. Stubbornness does not mean your right btw. What are you so afraid of? I entertain your thoughts, but mine are too "delusional" for you to consider. Sounds like you are all stuck thinking inside a box. A comfy, cozy box that allows you to blame a god that you say doesn't exist for the worlds problems.

Who is delusional now?

You are. You do understand the majority of the atheists on this board used to be believers. So not only have we entertained the theist mindset, we've actually been practising theists.

It has nothing, to do with stubborness. You say, "Stubborness does not mean you are right" Well, no it doesn't. The thing is, since a lot of us have, as a matter of fact, changed our beliefs, stubborness is a very strange accusation to level.

Actually, "stobborness does not make you right" is the accusation we have every right to level at theists! Theists follow traditions of handed down "revealed" knowledge. We ask, "Well, where's the evidence that you are right" and ALL they really have to offer is stubborness, or as they like to call it, tradition.

That why you will hear the call of "Got evidence?" angain and again. The very nature of science, reason and skepticism is based on the concept of "If you have evidence, I am in the wrong. If you don't have evidence, hard scrutinizable evidence, you can make up stuff that isn't true"

[Omen]

Just so you know my chair is not cozy right now. My day stinks actually. I'll have to revisit this when I'm not grieving. Thanks for chatting with me, and actually, I do believe in God. I'm just trying to meet you on your plane since you refuse to come to mine. Stubbornness does not mean your right btw. What are you so afraid of? I entertain your thoughts, but mine are too "delusional" for you to consider. Sounds like you are all stuck thinking inside a box. A comfy, cozy box that allows you to blame a god that you say doesn't exist for the worlds problems.

Who is delusional now?

How is it delusional to require evidence for claims?

[jdawg70]

Just so you know my chair is not cozy right now. My day stinks actually. I'll have to revisit this when I'm not grieving. Thanks for chatting with me, and actually, I do believe in God. I'm just trying to meet you on your plane since you refuse to come to mine. Stubbornness does not mean your right btw. What are you so afraid of? I entertain your thoughts, but mine are too "delusional" for you to consider. Sounds like you are all stuck thinking inside a box. A comfy, cozy box that allows you to blame a god that you say doesn't exist for the worlds problems.

I'm afraid of believing things that aren't true.

Seriously...which one of us is blaming god for anything right now?  I'm currently blaming you for giving me a headache for being so oblivious to anything outside of your "I believe god exists because I believe god exists because I believe god exists because I believe god exists because I believe god exists because I believe god exists" box.

You say that god exists.  A whole crapload of people here ask "why do you think god exists?".  You respond with "because it feels like he exists.  And that feels good.".  And then you turn around and accuse some of us that we're somehow afraid of something and close minded.

Who is delusional now?

The reality behind God is inconsequential because it is a moot point to me. If I am wrong, I will see you in the dirt I suppose, but I believe, and therefor it becomes reality for me.

#justsaying