Why would God fear your curiosity?

[MonicaLynn]

It is an abstract idea obviously, but I do believe it because I believe in God. If there is one, He should be able to do anything, right?

[Ice Monkey]

It is an abstract idea obviously, but I do believe it because I believe in God. If there is one, He should be able to do anything, right?

That's what we've always contended.

[One Above All]

Like making certain his magical book is actually consistent with itself and reality?

[Omen]

It is an abstract idea obviously, but I do believe it because I believe in God. If there is one, He should be able to do anything, right?

Ok, so how do I differentiate your claims from someone who is mentally ill or someone who claims a different religion as 'truth' in a similar way?

[jdawg70]

Let's say a child lost his father he never knew to a war. All he had was his fathers diary. In that diary, his father wrote that he loved him very much and gave directions on how he thinks his son should conduct himself. Would it be mentally ill of the son to believe that his father loves him and tht he should do his best to follow his father's instructions?

If that is the seed received, so be it. I don't even know what intellectually dishonest means.

Care if I change the analogy a bit?

Let's say a child last his father he never knew to a war.  All he had was a book that had the words "Your Father's Diary" written on it.  In that book, the text says that he loved him very much and gave directions on how he thinks his son should conduct himself.  For example, it says that he should love his neighbor as he loves himself.  It also says that those who commit adultery should be killed.  Would it be mentally ill of the son to believe that his father loves him and that he should do his best to follow the instructions in the book that had the words "Your Father's Diary" written on it?

What are the differences between my analogy and your analogy?

[MonicaLynn]

Yeah, I know that's the sticking point. I just figure maybe it is hard to believe in god because the concept has been misconstrued to fit selfish men's purposes throughout history.

The old testament is a historical record of things before Jesus. We are only to conduct ourselves in the way we are told in the new testament after we were redeemed. The earlier writings were recording od trying to help us from his throne. Then the time came hat he deemed it necessary to one in our form. And rightly so. No one can lead before following. So god made himself to be ridiculed, looked down on and even killed while being still perfect so tha he is asking nothing of us that he has not done himself. Admirable if you ask me.

[atheola]

The only deity that ever proved anything to me was the Tooth Fairy^TM who by the strangest twist of fate bore a remarkable resemblance to my mother. How weird is that? 
Trust me..with perhaps dozens of really bad toothaches over the years I've learned to fear that fairy.

[Omen]

Yeah, I know that's the sticking point. I just figure maybe it is hard to believe in god because the concept has been misconstrued to fit selfish men's purposes throughout history.

It has never been misconstrued because there is no self evident 'god' claim to be misconstrued against.  Christian ideology is expressly xenophobic and contains no benign all inclusive messages of 'love'.

It is also irrelevant whether or not a religious ideology is misconstrued one way or another; nothing about the ethical nature or message of a religious ideology has anything to do with validating that religion as true.

[One Above All]

Yeah, I know that's the sticking point. I just figure maybe it is hard to believe in god because the concept has been misconstrued to fit selfish men's purposes throughout history.

Tell us, oh mighty prophet, what is the correct interpretation of YHWH's commandments to slaughter about two thirds of the world's population?

[MonicaLynn]

I don't recall referring to myself as a prophet. Please don't mock, as I am not being this way towards you.

[Ice Monkey]

I remember once, while in the Carribean, looking over the edge of the boat and thinking the water's only about 5 feet deep.  I jumped in.  It was more like 15.

Can you relate, ML?    Welcome to WWGHA.

[One Above All]

I don't recall referring to myself as a prophet. Please don't mock, as I am not being this way towards you.

If you and only you have the OneTrueDecoderRing^TM, then you are a prophet. Is not a prophet someone who knows "the word of god[1]" better than anyone else?

BTW, MonicaLynn, are you ever going to answer Omen's question? Intellectual dishonesty is not a virtue.

EDIT: And FYI, I do mock you for good reason. You may not be mocking us directly, but your intellectual dishonesty is off the scale (average for theists) and your claims have zero evidence attached. You seem to know nothing of the Bible you claim to have read or even your own religion. You also seem to know nothing about making an argument.

1.	Whatever that is.

[Omen]

I don't recall referring to myself as a prophet. Please don't mock, as I am not being this way towards you.

You claim magical knowledge and assume your own authority in the ability to answer 'questions', as if your questions were self evidently credible.  Your behavior is condescendingly arrogant; you're behaving as if you were a 'prophet', then in an ultimate display of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty you insist that you're not a 'prophet'.


Ok, so how do I differentiate your claims from someone who is mentally ill or someone who claims a different religion as 'truth' in a similar way?

[jdawg70]

Yeah, I know that's the sticking point. I just figure maybe it is hard to believe in god because the concept has been misconstrued to fit selfish men's purposes throughout history.

The old testament is a historical record of things before Jesus. We are only to conduct ourselves in the way we are told in the new testament after we were redeemed. The earlier writings were recording od trying to help us from his throne. Then the time came hat he deemed it necessary to one in our form. And rightly so. No one can lead before following. So god made himself to be ridiculed, looked down on and even killed while being still perfect so tha he is asking nothing of us that he has not done himself. Admirable if you ask me.

You failed to account for the fact that the son had not established that the book titled "Your Father's Diary" was a) actually authored by a father, b) *his* father, not someone elses, and c) intended it as an actual diary account and not a work of fiction.

[Historicity]

The only deity that ever proved anything to me was the Tooth Fairy^TM who by the strangest twist of fate bore a remarkable resemblance to my mother. How weird is that? 
Trust me..with perhaps dozens of really bad toothaches over the years I've learned to fear that fairy.

Time for tangent.

I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus
Underneath the mistletoe last night
She didn't see me down the stairs to have a peek
She thought that I was tucked up in my Bedroom fast asleep

Then I saw mommy tickle Santa Claus
Underneath his beard so snowy white
What a laugh it would have been
If daddy had only seen
Mommy kissing Santa Claus last night.

#1 on the charts in December 1952.

Okay, resume the significant discussion.

[MonicaLynn]

I am not intentionally using anything o be dishonest. It is difficult to explain something of this nature, and I am doing my best, bear with me please. Also, I do not claim to know scripture better than anyone else. I only know what is revealed to me as applicable in my everyday life as I look for answers, and these are the things I try to share. If they are received as dishonesty, perhaps they are intended for someone else. I'm just talking, that's all.

I think that, since or human ears cannot hear God literally ( hence you are probably crazy if you think you did. Even when He spoke in the bible, people thought it was thunder), e speaks through people. You can discern who is really there or Gods purposes and not their own because they will have certain traits that areprevelant in their personalities. These are love, joy, self-control, kindness, peace, patience, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness.

[Alzael]

I don't recall referring to myself as a prophet. Please don't mock, as I am not being this way towards you.

What else is there to do?

Your claims have no evidence or veracity. You have no rational arguments to make, or even a valid point to make it seems. All you're doing is going on speech after speech about how you think religion is. A speech very boring and very similiar to what every other religious person gives that we've heard about a thousand times at least.

Until you have something substantive to actually contribute and are willing to put effort into engaging, I don't see what else there it do except mock you.

As an aside, you're wrong. I find your intellectual dishonesty and the laziness of thought that you put into your responses to be very mocking, not to mention rather offensive. So yes, you are giving every reason to be mocked at this point.

[Omen]

I am not intentionally using anything o be dishonest. It is difficult to explain something of this nature, and I am doing my best, bear with me please. Also, I do not claim to know scripture better than anyone else.

Yes you do, you claim magical knowledge and 'special' understanding.

You're being intellectually dishonest and hypocritical, again.


Ok, so how do I differentiate your claims from someone who is mentally ill or someone who claims a different religion as 'truth' in a similar way?

[atheola]

Hey now..a woman giving us gods word.. Original sin was via a woman.. The ..ehem..tooth fairy is widely perceived to be a woman and tooth brushes didn't grow from that fateful tree.. So..Monica is either A. The tooth fairy OR B. Trying to convince us of something imaginary...or she could be a witch and I don't want to think about what fate might become if her.. 

[Omen]

As an aside, you're wrong. I find your intellectual dishonesty and the laziness of thought that you put into your responses to be very mocking, not to mention rather offensive. So yes, you are giving every reason to be mocked at this point.

I have to agree, her sophistry is selective and intentional to a degree that is insulting and disrespectful of others here.

[Alzael]

I am not intentionally using anything o be dishonest. It is difficult to explain something of this nature, and I am doing my best, bear with me please. Also, I do not claim to know scripture better than anyone else. I only know what is revealed to me as applicable in my everyday life as I look for answers, and these are the things I try to share. If they are received as dishonesty, perhaps they are intended for someone else. I'm just talking, that's all.

Not true. You haven't tried to explain anything. Just made unevidenced claims.

[MonicaLynn]

Yes, and I am building a giant castle of teeth as we sleek, and then I will se my magic wand to make it come alive like Monster House.... Lol. Really? Is this what I sound like to you. My thoughts are lazy, yet you repeat yourselves again and again. I fail to see the validity in your persecution of my efforts.

[One Above All]

My thoughts are lazy, yet you repeat yourselves again and again.

You repeat yourself again and again. Were you expecting something different? I think I heard a quote about that...

I fail to see the validity in your persecution of my efforts.

And the persecution card comes into play. 33 posts. Not bad.

[MonicaLynn]

I'm sorry I am unable to offer the proof you desire. I really wish it were in me to do so.

Do you claim that there are not people repeating themselves here?

[Omen]

Yes, and I am building a giant castle of teeth as we sleek, and then I will se my magic wand to make it come alive like Monster House.... Lol. Really? Is this what I sound like to you.

Yes, this is EXACTLY how you sound to us.

My thoughts are lazy, yet you repeat yourselves again and again. I fail to see the validity in your persecution of my efforts.

What efforts?

What persecution?

Why is it persecution to ask you to support your own claims?

[Ice Monkey]

I am not intentionally using anything o be dishonest. It is difficult to explain something of this nature, and I am doing my best, bear with me please. Also, I do not claim to know scripture better than anyone else. I only know what is revealed to me as applicable in my everyday life as I look for answers, and these are the things I try to share. If they are received as dishonesty, perhaps they are intended for someone else. I'm just talking, that's all.

No problem.  I'm glad you've trying to move past the crap many of us were force fed.  My concern is where you're looking for your answers.  Personally, I felt that a good academic understanding of the bible was the first step.  Many, if not most, pastors, priests, and ministers aren't telling you everything they were taught in seminary school.  They don't think you can handle the truth (sorry for the quasi reference to a bad movie).  But intelligent people can handle it.  I suggest you approach the bible in an academic way, studying textual criticism, instead of a pastoral approach, if you're truly seeking the truth.

I would suggest you start reading something like Bart D Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus as an excellent primer, though others here may be able to suggest other helpful, no-bullshit resources for you.  There's much you haven't been told, and at the very least, it will help you hear the biblical authors' individual voices.  They have much more to say when not lumped into one big metagospel.

Guess I should wander off to work.  Hope you're still here when I get back.

[jdawg70]

I am not intentionally using anything o be dishonest. It is difficult to explain something of this nature, and I am doing my best, bear with me please. Also, I do not claim to know scripture better than anyone else. I only know what is revealed to me as applicable in my everyday life as I look for answers, and these are the things I try to share. If they are received as dishonesty, perhaps they are intended for someone else. I'm just talking, that's all.

The 'quote' button in the upper-right corner is your friend.  Please use it, as I'm not sure who you're addressing

I totally get you aren't trying to be dishonest, but what I think you're failing to grasp is that myself (and a suspect a lot of the others here) do NOT take intuition at face value.  ESPECIALLY intuition about objective reality.  Here's my guess - in many, many other aspects of life, you typically have some reasons for accepting some claims as true and others as false.  Does the emperor of Mexico exist?  That is either true or false.  So far as I can tell, applying your rationale for belief in the existence of god, this question can be answered through intuition alone.  If you arrive at the conclusion that the claim is false, well, your claim happens to coincide with reality.  If you arrive at the conclusion that the claim is true, well, your claim does NOT coincide with reality.

In either case, what I guess I'm interested in is how you arrived at your conclusion.  If the same question were posed to me, and all I did was introspect about the existence of the emperor of Mexico and concluded that because it "feels right" that there is no emperor of Mexico, therefore there is no emperor of Mexico, would you consider my *methodology* for evaluating that claim to be sound?  The conclusion is right, but did I make an honest effort to determine if there is indeed an emperor of Mexico?

Also, I kinda just like typing the phrase 'emperor of Mexico'.

[MonicaLynn]

Asking me and being rude are two different things. I get it though. I Did the same ting to people. I'm just saying ease up on me a little with the approach.

[Omen]

Asking me and being rude are two different things. I get it though. I Did the same ting to people. I'm just saying ease up on me a little with the approach.

Why is it rude to ask you to support your own claims?

Why are you misconstruing holding you accountable with persecuting you?

Why do you want others to stop holding you accountable for your claims?