Why would God fear your curiosity?

[Ice Monkey]

My understanding is that God does not fear anything. Our curiosity included. The bible actually says that we should be wise and knowledgable. How could we achieve any of that without curiosity? I have studied other religions and decided on followings he Hod of the bible. Not a specific religion per se, though I go to a church or fellowship, I find people are many times over wrong or just ignorant of what the bible really says. I believe for instance, because of scripture I have studied, that people of other religions will still go to heaven.many Christians would freak over this, but if God can do anything, why not save people postmortem? If we presented God as loving as he really is, we see that he can and will do anything for us because he loves us.

Hey Monica.  From everything I've read about your deity, he sounds pretty darn insecure to me.  But I do agree with you.  The knowledge the average Christian has with regards to their own scriptures is breathtakingly sparse.  There's nothing virtuous about devoting your spiritual life to something you know very little about.  Don't look to your pastor for accurate info - there's much he isn't telling his flock.

I still meet people who tell me that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.   

[MonicaLynn]

I don't believe that. Is hell real. Sure. Do people go there. Of course. god determines who those people are. They are created for the purpose of accomplishing His mission, and I think are fewer than Christians would have ou believe. Those people who go to hell are those that are truly evil... But how many people are like this? Most are just misunderstood ( like yourselves). To say that someone is going to hell because they don't believe what you do is not of the god of the bible. Scripture says clealy that we are predestined to be claimed by God and " nothing created" can prevent that. Jesus was created, so was doubt. If you died tomorrow, and met God, I doubt he would say you were going to hell. Like a good father, he would present the truth to us and when me with concrete evidence that people like yourself require, you would probably accept him. I think Christians fear researching this ( though it is a scripturally sound theological possibility), because it would take them out of power ( Catholics), and cause them to have to question their foundations. There are those that are too weak and need the " brain washed" faith. God has set these things in p,ace for a reason. I'm okay with that. Even a priest I sent my thoughts to failed to answer. Go figure.

[MonicaLynn]

I found a pastor who has a phd in philosophy for just that reason and I can talk to him about things like this. Jut waiting for the right time. It's kind of heavy for anyone of tha faith, but I think he may even agree with me. The thing is, it is not for people who are already Christians. It is for unbelievers. Some, stronger faithed, scripture familiar Christians may benefit from knowing and spreading this, but as far as I know there are no others with this belief like me. Perhaps they are wise enough not to punch the church in the face with it like I am

[Ice Monkey]

I found a pastor who has a phd in philosophy for just that reason and I can talk to him about things like this. Jut waiting for the right time. It's kind of heavy for anyone of tha faith, but I think he may even agree with me. The thing is, it is not for people who are already Christians. It is for unbelievers. Some, stronger faithed, scripture familiar Christians may benefit from knowing and spreading this, but as far as I know there are no others with this belief like me. Perhaps they are wise enough not to punch the church in the face with it like I am

Well, it does get awkward for all involved when it becomes apparent that I clearly know far more about the bible than the guy trying to convert me.

[jdawg70]

Really...?

OK then, I guess if it makes you feel better at the end of the day. I could tell you that you are wrong but what good would that do...? It wouldn't matter anyway. Would it...?

So you you don't believe in GOD. What can I really do about that except by living a good life and setting a good example...? I can't make anyone here a believer. I could tell you all day long but it doesn't do any good. You guys all think I'm nuts but I really don't even care anymore. Not that I don't care what you think, it's just that I've heard it all before. Countless times.

So OK.... what else is there really left to say...?

It is my hope that GOD will bless you.

You could tell me I'm wrong, OR, you could tell me I'm wrong *and why I'm wrong*.  That way, I'd be able to rethink my claims and the option of my mind changing would present itself.  That's not to say I would absolutely change my mind - after all, I could be hard headed and dogmatic.  But what good would it do in any exchange of ideas to simply say "Wrong!" and move on?

My earlier post in reply to joebblowers original question (the topic of this thread) was basically just a collective of assertions and conceptual analysis.  There is plenty of room for discussion there.  You clearly disagree with something in my statements, but I'm not clear on what it is you disagree with - you're just saying I'm wrong and leaving it at that.  That seems to be pretty unproductive, no?

Look...if I presented you with a mathematical proof that 1=2, and I am convinced the proof is correct, how is it that you simply telling me I'm wrong going to help AT ALL in correcting my error?  The proof is right!  I'm right!  End of story!

OR.

You could tell me I'm wrong, and explain to me which premise was incorrect and why it was incorrect.  That way I'd be able to correct my error, or argue why your correction is invalid.

I'm a fat, privileged, selfish jerk that can type stuff into a keyboard to have a pizza delivered to my front door.  There are families in Africa who stand a good chance of dying of starvation or being slaughtered by militant nutjobs out there.  Your hope should be that god blesses them first; he can get to me when he's done with that.

[MonicaLynn]

Lol. Yes, that happens, but unfortunately for the human race all doctors are not good at what they do either. That's why disciples were not required to get degrees in the bible and the REAL church was not a physical ne " god does not reside in man made things" , but an invisible one; the collective of people TRUELY following Him. I believe that people of all faiths are included in this. I also believe that this does not contradict Jesus dying to save us. I believe that hs death was for our benefit on this earth "he died for all so that those who live should no longer live for themselves" is solely applicable to our earthly lives. I do wonder however the facial expression of God if I should say "I love you"  and then not accept him in the facet he presented himself as in Jesus.

[jdawg70]

My understanding is that God does not fear anything. Our curiosity included. The bible actually says that we should be wise and knowledgable. How could we achieve any of that without curiosity? I have studied other religions and decided on followings he Hod of the bible. Not a specific religion per se, though I go to a church or fellowship, I find people are many times over wrong or just ignorant of what the bible really says. I believe for instance, because of scripture I have studied, that people of other religions will still go to heaven.many Christians would freak over this, but if God can do anything, why not save people postmortem? If we presented God as loving as he really is, we see that he can and will do anything for us because he loves us.

Which scripture(s) lead you to the understanding that people of other religions will still go to heaven?

[jdawg70]

And MonicaLynn, just so I understand a little more context behind your posts:

Is the bible the word of god or not?

[MonicaLynn]

Jdawg, I'm sorry that someone is hurting you in God's name. That is not graceful, and so the are not doing God's work. Many people go to those remote areas to help starving people on missions btw. This guy is probably not one of them, bu I don't  know. I guess I shouldn't judge either. Biblically, we ( believers ) are called to rebuke each other, and I quote in an  " abrasive" manner.

To the " believer" judging you:

You are not doing he work of the Lord if you behave this wy towards people. We are cursed if we " cause these people to stumble" read your new testament again. It would be better for you to be thrown into water with a stone around your neck than to do what you are doing. You represent the almighty God, and if you are not prepared to bare that burden in grace and love, I suggest you leave forums like this one alone for the moment and go read up on grace!

[Alzael]

My understanding is that God does not fear anything. Our curiosity included.

Untrue. His fear of us was exactly the reason behind his destruction of the Tower of Babel and for scattering us to the four winds while confusing our language. God says that when working together there was nothing that man was not capable of doing, so he split us up to prevent us being able to unite ourselves again.

The bible actually says that we should be wise and knowledgable.

Also utterly untrue. See the Tower of Babel above for just one example.

Furthermore the very fact that faith is required at all removes any possibility of wisdom and knowledge since the notion of faith (belief without evidence) completely sidesteps such things. A person who actually had wisdom and knowledge would not believe in a god that they couldn't prove, and since no evidence has ever been forthcoming from any religious person ever.......

How could we achieve any of that without curiosity? I have studied other religions and decided on followings he Hod of the bible. Not a specific religion per se, though I go to a church or fellowship, I find people are many times over wrong or just ignorant of what the bible really says.

You don't seem to have read it very much yourself.

I believe for instance, because of scripture I have studied, that people of other religions will still go to heaven.

Case in point.

many Christians would freak over this, but if God can do anything, why not save people postmortem?

Because "can" and "will" are different things. Sure he could save them. Doesn't mean he will, in fact he says otherwise. This is basically you saying that you're not going by anything the bible says, you're just making up what feels good to you. So it was rather hypocritical of you to make that earlier statement about how other people read the bible wrong or incorrectly, don't you think?

If we presented God as loving as he really is, we see that he can and will do anything for us because he loves us.

Then why doesn't he? How does a loving god sit back and watch a child get raped? Or watch children die of starvation by the millions? For that matter this "loving" god once caused the oarents of a city to kill and eat their own children. Is that really an example of loving to you?

For that matter why does god often outright admit to being a jealous, vindictive prick often in the bible.

[MonicaLynn]

Yes sir, i believe it is

[Ice Monkey]

Jdawg, I'm sorry that someone is hurting you in God's name.!

I wonder how god feels about it.

[Alzael]

I don't believe that. Is hell real. Sure. Do people go there. Of course.

Not really the behaviour of a loving person.

god determines who those people are. They are created for the purpose of accomplishing His mission, and I think are fewer than Christians would have ou believe.

Then, by your own admission, this "loving" god you believe in created certain people to go to hell and suffer for eternity just to accomplish his own goals.

...........wow, you are one sick puppy.

I would also add that these people who did mean things did them not out of their own will, but because god wanted them to. So they are in fact utterly blameless in all things. Also that since god is supposedly all-powerful there is actually no need to have anyone suffer to complete his mission. Unless he actively wants people to suffer.

Those people who go to hell are those that are truly evil... But how many people are like this? Most are just misunderstood ( like yourselves). To say that someone is going to hell because they don't believe what you do is not of the god of the bible. Scripture says clealy that we are predestined to be claimed by God and " nothing created" can prevent that.

If there is predestination then they cannot be "truly evil". To be truly evil would imply that they have a choice in the matter. By your way of thinking they don't. They're simply created to be what they are.

Jesus was created, so was doubt. If you died tomorrow, and met God, I doubt he would say you were going to hell. Like a good father, he would present the truth to us and when me with concrete evidence that people like yourself require, you would probably accept him.

Concrete evidence? I think most here would be amazed if someone showed up with any evidence. Also in a system based on faith, there can be no truth. Truth requires evidence.

I think Christians fear researching this ( though it is a scripturally sound theological possibility), because it would take them out of power ( Catholics), and cause them to have to question their foundations. There are those that are too weak and need the " brain washed" faith. God has set these things in p,ace for a reason. I'm okay with that. Even a priest I sent my thoughts to failed to answer. Go figure.

Speaking of "brainwashed".......

[MonicaLynn]

Sorry, I got logged out somehow .  . Those are a lot of questions and accusations I can answer one. A time if you like.

[MonicaLynn]

Please try to be kinder? I cannot give away something I do to know, but I can answer questions if thy are or he purpose of obtaining information. If you just want to hurt me, well, you can keep your insults. I don't accept them, but thank you anyway

[MonicaLynn]

@ ice monkey- I'm sure He'll deal with that guy, or already is.

[MonicaLynn]

I just realized that the person insulting me is the moderator. This should be fun   

[MonicaLynn]

Beyond all this mess what I'm saying is that God, if he does in fact exist, should be all powerful and all loving, but also just. I think he is.

[Omen]

I cannot give away something I do to know

If you can't explain how or what you claim to know, then why would I ever take you seriously when you offer to:

but I can answer questions if thy are or he purpose of obtaining information.

How would I differentiate you from someone who is mentally ill or someone of a different religion making a similar claim?

[Alzael]

Please try to be kinder? I cannot give away something I do to know, but I can answer questions if thy are or he purpose of obtaining information. If you just want to hurt me, well, you can keep your insults. I don't accept them, but thank you anyway

If that is all it takes to hurt your feelings, you're not going to last very long.

I have no interest in hurting you,  I don't care enough about you to bother. However that doesn't mean that I'm going to be extra-special nice to you either just because you're going to cry because someone voiced a harsh opinion. One thing you'll learn very quickly is that honesty is very valued here and people are going to flat-out tell you what they think without hesitation. If you say something stupid, it will be pointed out to you (most likely often). And not because you're religious, because the people here tend to have little interest in pulling punches just because someone else can't handle criticism.

You said that god created people to go to hell just to serve his own needs. I called you a sick person for believing that, which was a very fair criticism. It is a sick thing to think, and especially to worship someone for. If that was inaccurate, correct it. If it you think it isn't sick, make a reasoned argument and defend it. If all you're going to do is whine about how you don't like it, don't bother because no one cares.

Make a reasoned argument and support/defend yourself, or don't.

I just realized that the person insulting me is the moderator. This should be fun   

We keep the moderator job and the normal member job separate.

[MonicaLynn]

I am admitting I do to claim to know everything, but I can answer those questions I do have knowledge on. I just need them one at a time so I can focus on the answer instead of the hostility behind the barrage of inquisitions. Is that okay with you? ( serious, not being sarcastic )

[Ice Monkey]

@ ice monkey- I'm sure He'll deal with that guy, or already is.

Poor management, at best.  There's an opportunity for some solid PR - a public apology given, with the promise that an investigation is ongoing, and the guy's been suspended from church without pay.

Seriously though, if I saw someone beating the crap out of a guy, saying they were doing it for my sake, you'd see some action from me.  I wouldn't turn away.  I couldn't.  First, I can't stand seeing anyone getting hurt, and would step in regardless of the reason.  Secondly, I do have a reputation I'd like to keep intact. 

[Omen]

I am admitting I do to claim to know everything, but I can answer those questions I do have knowledge on. I just need them one at a time so I can focus on the answer instead of the hostility behind the barrage of inquisitions. Is that okay with you? ( serious, not being sarcastic )

How would I differentiate you from someone who is mentally ill or someone of a different religion making a similar claim?

[MonicaLynn]

I'm not crying, I'm typing

I think we are all sick in some way. There is good and evil. Most people agree to that at least. There is balance that is necessary, its science. Why is it so ba to believe this s applicable on a piritual level as well. If a hereafter does exist, are all physics and reason inapplicable when we reach it? I dont think so.

[Alzael]

I am admitting I do to claim to know everything, but I can answer those questions I do have knowledge on. I just need them one at a time so I can focus on the answer instead of the hostility behind the barrage of inquisitions. Is that okay with you? ( serious, not being sarcastic )

Yes that is fine.

And you have not been receiving hostility. You've been receiving criticism. Should it ever reach the point where people get hostile, believe me you'll know the difference. Which should be avoided as long as you're honest. Like admitting to not knowing everything was a good start.

[MonicaLynn]

@ ice monkey- I have publicly rebuked this jerk and am apologizing on behalf of him as a claimed "believer" . Is tis sufficient?

[Omen]

@ ice monkey- I have publicly rebuked this jerk and am apologizing on behalf of him as a claimed "believer" . Is tis sufficient?

How would I differentiate you from someone who is mentally ill or someone of a different religion making a similar claim?

[Alzael]

I'm not crying, I'm typing

I think we are all sick in some way. There is good and evil. Most people agree to that at least. There is balance that is necessary, its science. Why is it so ba to believe this s applicable on a piritual level as well. If a hereafter does exist, are all physics and reason inapplicable when we reach it? I dont think so.

LACK OF EVIDENCE.

First you have to prove that a spiritiual actually exists. If you can't then you can't make any claims about it, and it's irrational to believe in it in the first place.

As for why it's so bad, let me put it this way........

Let's say Omen wakes up tomorrow and says that he heard the voice of god speaking in his dreams. The voice of god told him to go out and give to charities, be more loving with his family and to help the sick and injured.

Then let's say I wake up tomorrow and say that I heard the voice of speaking in my dream. The voice of god told me to go forth and smash the babies of unbelievers against the rocks.

Either way, both ideas are nuts. One might be considered nicer, but either way we are both hearing voices. Omen and I have the same evidence for our beliefs (none), both can be supported by the bible, and there is absolutely no way to tell who (if any of us) are right.

That's why believing in something with no evidence is bad. Because then every other stupid idea becomes equally as plausible.

[MonicaLynn]

I guess you can't since we are on a website...