Author Topic: Reinterpreting the bible  (Read 1427 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2012, 08:00:53 AM »
But what if the entire bible is not supposed to be what most of us believe it is supposed to be? ..... Perhaps the bible is about alien visitations long ago, although whether or not there's any truth to it is another matter.

Kymer, I'm not sure what you're after with this thread, which may be why you and Omen are on different pages.

If you're honestly and seriously putting this out there as a "it may in fact be true", then you need to both (a) address Kcrady's points about why it can't be true, as well as (b) Omen's questions about how you'd tell if it was.

It may be though that you're just up for a bit of a bull session, more for entertainment than anything else.  In which case you CAN legitimately skip Omen's points....though you may need to answer "why pick the Bible then?" as opposed to any other religious or historical text - for example, what if the Norse Gods were actually aliens?

If the entertainment version though, you DO still need to address Kcrady's points as to why it all falls apart when you examine it.....otherwise this will end up being a very short and dull thread that boild down to no more than:

"hey guys, what if god was an alien?"
"heh - that's be cool".
<silence>
"okay, who's up for some Nintendo?"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2012, 08:14:52 AM »
So on one hand the Bible is true in that of which it says. If you fail to recognize Jesus Christ, then you will not recognize the truth hidden within the Bibles pages. That it is purposely taught in parable, so you will hear but not hear. See but not see.

So if you really did as Jesus commanded, then the truth would be revealed. Is it any wonder that any of you pick up a Bible and pick away at it looking only for negative intentions...? Is it any wonder that you reject Jesus Christ and come to the conclusion you do...?

You DO keep switching between "fail to recognise" and "reject", no matter how many times its pointed out to you.

Yes.  I DO "fail to recognise" what is in the Bible, according to you.  I think we can both agree, regardless of who is actually correct, that I see no special significane in the book, no deep and hidden meaning, no mystical truths.  That's fine, we can agree with that - you see, I don't, we are agreed.

But you then jumo straight from there to "rejecting" Jesus.  Yes, I suppose I do - same as I "reject" any other god that gets offered to me, because there is no proof.  Not "reject" as in "refuse", as you appear to be trying to confuse things.

And it's telling the way you use this little line: "So if you really did as Jesus commanded, then the truth would be revealed."  Perhaps it would.  BUT, you - or god, if you like - have given me no reason whatsoever to do so.  No reason to DO as Jesus commanded and see what happens, no more than I would do what Odin commanded and see what happens.

You are on the inside, so it all makes sense to you, I accept that.  But until you ARE on the inside, there is no reason to accept the Bible as anything more than yet another load of myth. 

In the Western world, it is the major religion, and so inculcated in our culture that it is the defacto response whenever "a god" comes into the equation, the defacto "well, try living like the Bible says" response when someone considers the gods.  But if we were living in India, then Hinduism would be the default first choice.  Devout Hindus, annoyed as the handful of atheists in Mumbai, say to them "why do you reject Shiva?  Just do what he says, and you will understand".

If you can give me a good reason to go with Christianity, as opposed to Hinduism (or any other religion) then I may do so, as you may have a point.  Until then, I can 't refuse Christ, and more than I can refuse Thor or Vishnu - they mean nothing to me, and likely never will.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2012, 08:18:14 AM »
For example, god refers to himself in the plural. What if it is not the so called royal "we" and instead it is literally referring to many "gods"?
The answer to this is in the Book of Jeremiah. Yahweh explains to the Israelites that they should no longer worship the Elohim, but that they should worship Him alone.

Who were the Elohim?
The Elohim were the Council of gods (think the gods on Mount Olympus) headed up by the father god El. El was the god who "formed" (not made or created) the earth. The rest of the Elohim were his children.

The gods of Israel seem to have arisen from what is now Iraq. Belief in them spread north and west, and as the beliefs travelled, local gods were identified with some of the new-comers and some original gods changed their names.

In Jeremiah, Jeremiah himself is shown as a public servant of King Jehoram. Jehoram was a fanatical Yahwist. He ordered Jeremiah to impose Yahweh on the people and abolish all other gods. Jeremiah was good at his job and he did this.

Space aliens are best left to movies and books.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2012, 08:27:16 AM »

ILY

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But the very Bible you guys reject, teach that the meaning is hidden. And is a mystery. Only to be found in Jesus Christ, being self contained and truthfully exposed in Jesus Christ, whom you reject. So, is it only fair to say, that you feel this way because you fail to recognize Jesus Christ. Then, you will say that we tried that and it didn't happen. Yet for others they say, it is the absolute truth.

^^^ The words of a desperate and ignorant of his own religion theist, who's beliefs have been been refuted so well that they now have to hide in mystery and take the pathetic position of only being recognizable through the supposed torturous bloodletting of a scapegoat.

Only a loving god would keep his elect confused with hidden meanings and unsolvable mysteries and then top it all off with allowing unrelenting gratuitous evil and torturous sufferings... That indeed is a loving god.

Only a loving god would sit idly and watch his creation mock and rebuke and kill each other over explanations concerning himself and not unify his creations knowledge of him and their love for each other. Yes, that sure is a loving god.

Only a loving god would rather kill his own son than to have got it all right in the first place and given his creation a clear picture of his existence, glory and awesome nature to build trust and love on. True love.

Only a loving god, would knowingly create imperfect beings and at the same time knowingly create evil beings to create confusion and folly in the mind of those special creations that god loves so dearly.
Yes, it's so obvious that god loves us.

Only a loving god would create two abodes for the afterlife and use the hideousness and terrors of one to coerce his creation into serving him in the other. Yes, this hidden god must really love us.

 &)

 

"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2012, 08:30:36 AM »
I find it odd that you guys find what I am saying is preaching but you yourselves are given a free pass to declare whatever you like as long as it is in opposition towards the Bible.
The difference here is that things that we "declare" correspond beautifully with the world we actually live in, whereas the Bible does not. Our "declarations" have the benefit of evidence, thought, and reason.

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Yet you say if it is not scientifically provable, then it must be false.
I think it would be quite difficult for you to find an atheist here who would say that. Instead we would say that "If there is no evidence for something, there is no reason to believe that it is true." This means that an atheists belief state is not fixed in terms of true and false, but open to the explanation that offers the best evidence. If you actually had real, conclusive, irrefutable proof[1]of God's existence, I think it likely that most of us would believe that he existed. The most important word in this previous sentence is IF. This has not yet occurred. Additionally, if one could prove that God existed, it would still be a long way to demonstrate that such a deity was worthy of worship or even respect. If it is the god described in the Bible, I would say that he is not worthy of worship, and in fact would require us to take drastic action to ensure his downfall.

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But the very Bible you guys reject, teach that the meaning is hidden. And is a mystery. Only to be found in Jesus Christ, being self contained and truthfully exposed in Jesus Christ, whom you reject.
so the Bible is essentially worthless, since it's actual meaning is hidden to those who don't automatically and without question accept its claims are true.

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So, is it only fair to say, that you feel this way because you fail to recognize Jesus Christ. Then, you will say that we tried that and it didn't happen.
Many of us have "tried" faith in Jesus, and found it to be entirely ineffective for accomplishing anything at all. Hence, Atheism.
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Yet for others they say, it is the absolute truth.
Which it obviously can't be, since it doesn't even accurately describe the "design" of our solar system. An intelligent designer with an autobiography really shouldn't mess that kind of thing up.

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That some were indoctrinated, yet others sought for themselves, no indoctrination required.
Those that don't believe that they are indoctrinated are the ones who are the MOST indoctrinated. Just ask followers of Jim Jones or David Koresh. Oh wait, you can't because they were all so indoctrinated that they are now dead.

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So on one hand the Bible is true in that of which it says.
If the meaning is hidden, how can you say what it says is true?? Also, keep in mind that with this one, simple statement, we can justifiably assume many things, for instance that you think bats are birds, you think animal blood cures disease, you believe in talking snakes, you approve of the rape of your enemies children, and you think slavery is a perfectly acceptable human endeavor.
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If you fail to recognize Jesus Christ, then you will not recognize the truth hidden within the Bibles pages.
And you wonder why kcrady brings up the Magic Decoder Ring. Jesus Christ.....
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That it is purposely taught in parable, so you will hear but not hear. See but not see.
Which, of course, is a TERRIBLE way to ensure that your amazing truth and revelations and good news is spread to as many people as possible. If I had an urgent message for EVERYONE, the most important message EVER, I would make it clear to understand and interpret, instead of saying "die the same day" when I really mean "lose immortality". A perfect God would be capable of nothing less than a perfectly comprehensible and meaningful work. To say that the true meaning is hidden only lends support to the idea that the whole thing is merely a doctrine manufactured by the shepherds to enslave the sheep.

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So if you really did as Jesus commanded, then the truth would be revealed.
So, you have sold all of your possessions and given the proceeds to charity? You hate your mother, father, brothers, sisters, children and friends? Unless you have done these things (as Jesus commanded) you are a hypocrite.
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Is it any wonder that any of you pick up a Bible and pick away at it looking only for negative intentions...?
Is this an admission that the Bible does in fact contain negative intentions? Would you be any less critical of the Koran or the Norse Eddas?
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Is it any wonder that you reject Jesus Christ and come to the conclusion you do...?
Considering the "evidence" offered to us in the Bible, it's the only rational conclusion a sane person can come to.

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It even says that you will fail in any other attempt, outside that of which is required. Is it perhaps for this purpose, it is written the way it is written...?
Yes, it's very convenient that the Bible is written the way it is written. "Believe that everything in this book is true and you will be  rewarded. Believe it not, and be punished". Exactly the kind of thing power hungry humans would do. Ever heard of a dictatorship?
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Even saying it is a double edged sword.
Will the sword coming out of Jesus mouth be double edged?

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And none of you can see it.
You're completely correct. We are incapable of observing other people's imaginary friends.

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But no.....
We are all indoctrinated and brainwashed.
Most sensible thing you've probably ever posted here.
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A mental disease that infects the minds of men...?
don't know if I would consider it a disease, more of a acquired ignorance.
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Yet, those who are truly in Christ are liberated and set free from the very things you argue about in the first place.
This would explain why Mother Teresa was full of doubt as to the efficacy of faith. What is it exactly that we are to be liberated and set free from? This may come as a shock to you, but most of us here don't consider "eternal slavery enforced by eternal punishment" to be liberating.
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  But you don't get it. You don't understand it. It is right within your grasp but you do not wish to take hold of it.
I have no desire to grope Jesus, thanks anyways.

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So you would rather spend your time, trying to destroy the faith of others because of your own pride.
Yeah, because Christians have NEVER done such a thing.....  In case you haven't noticed, religion is the most potent force for destroying the faith of others because of its own pride. It's even built in to the dogma. If people of faith would act as though what they were doing was actually faith based and not reality based, most of us wouldn't have a problem. yet we encounter folks like you, who KNOW in spite of the fact that faith is not readily compatible with knowledge. If you KNEW, you wouldn't need FAITH. 
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Is it any wonder that you walked away...? Is it any wonder that you do what you do...?

"GOD isn't real because I can't prove it and I didn't get my way......." "I didn't see a miracle..... so GOD must not be real."
Well, if Elijah is able to test God, and God answers favorably, I don't see why we can't. Perhaps you would like to take the "ignite the offering" test as detailed in 1 Kings:18? You can stand by your offering spewing the typical gibberish, and see how long it takes for it to light. We atheist will be standing by our offering, giving praise to the wonders of science and the beauty of logic, and armed with tools that are actually known to light fires. Let's see if the power of your faith in Jesus is greater than the power of a flamethrower. I should point out though, that unlike God, I am not a primitive, barbaric, vindictive, spoiled dictator, and will not require that you be put to death when you fail this test. A simple admission of error will suffice for me.

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Yet Jesus said it is only an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign and none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
This is of course why Jesus took the time to specify signs of true believers. According to Jesus, you can move mountains. You can even drink poison and handle deadly snakes, and no harm will come to you. If you are not willing to drink a gallon of Drano while sitting in a pit full of black mambas and puff adders, then I submit that you are not a real believer. This is according to your professed savior, Jesus Christ. This demonstrates that, while you say that you believe every word of the Bible, you don't expect the real world to actually operate in the way it describes. You KNOW that if you drink a gallon of Drano whilst handling deadly snakes, harm is in fact VERY likely to come to you. It's pretty pathetic when you have to suspend belief in your own belief system in order to attempt to justify that belief, and then offer as the explanation that it is all part of some hidden truth. Seriously, can you not understand how that sounds completely INSANE to us?

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Oh but wait.... that can't be true.... Well, it seems to be true thus far. Have any of you seen a divine miracle lately...? No you haven't.
No, and neither has anyone else. Again, this is contrary to the claims of Jesus, who said that his future followers would do even greater works than he. Jesus supposedly raised the dead and fed thousands of people with practically nothing. Unless you are able to do greater things than this, by a sheer act of willpower, you are not a follower of Jesus, per Jesus.

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But you will argue about it 'til your blue in the face. Patting each other on the backs, like you "know". In which you don't, because you can not prove with a 100% accuracy that GOD does or does not exist. Nor can you with an 100% accuracy prove the existence of Jesus Christ.
These are much bigger problems for you than us. You are admitting that you are willing to invest your entire life in a belief that is without any grounds. Who's making the error here? You can't prove with 100% accuracy that dragons don't exist. They are even mentioned in the Bible. So, according to your line of reasoning, the MOST SENSIBLE position to take is that not only that dragons exist, but that there will be dire consequences if you DON'T believe in dragons. Somehow, I am doubtful that this is a position that you occupy.
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Yet we have reason to believe a man named Jesus walked this Earth,
Not really. I mean, there could have been a guy named Jesus back then (the Bible mentions two) but saying that he existed does not provide any evidence of his divinity. Plenty of people who have actually existed have claimed to be of divine origin, yet I doubt you would accept such claims at face value. Indeed, I am guessing you would be a vocal critic of any such individual. But you are willing to make an exception for Jesus, because you think that there is something in it for you.
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according to the time of that of The Holy Bible that testifies of this truth.
Just because the Bible says it, doesn't make it true. 
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He was even written about in other non-secular books that makes mention of His existence.
Well, the Bible writes about the god Baal. Following your "logic", that means that Baal is REAL.
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But typically, you try and discredit that as well by saying it was falsified.
The Bible is a hodgepodge of documents written over the course millenia, typically not by the person actually observing the events (who was there to record the Genesis story?!??!). I think a little bit of skepticism is precisely what it deserves. Why does God need so many ghost writers??

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There is nothing any of you have said that The Jesus Christ has not brought to light for me and exposed the truth for me or will.
Bold mine. So, what you are admitting is that Jesus has NOT yet done these things for you, at least not to an extent that you feel fully informed. This would lead me to question what actual advantage your faith gives over any of us in matters of Biblical understanding, since you, by your own admission and in spite of your faith, are no nearer the truth than us.

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And you falsely accuse GOD.
I have only ever accused God of the things he is described as doing in his autobiography. Unless you are saying God's deeds in the Bible are not an accurate measure of what God does in the Bible. In that case, you would appear to be irrational.
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In which you don't even believe. You yourselves willfully will not enter into life but you insist on being a stumbling block to those who are.
This is an incredible statement. It's you religious people that are the stumbling block to life. Religious people invented the stumbling block of life known as the Dark Ages. It's religious people like you who insist on shoving meaningless garbage down children's throats, indoctrinating them into a violent and self perpetuating systematically evil lie. Religion has always hindered human progress and our ability to actually improve the quality of life.


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Playing church got frustrating, the burden of religion was to hard. Thank you GOD for sending me Jesus Christ.
Oh, so you are one of those "I have a personal relationship with Jesus, but don't need a church for that" types of people. In other words, you prefer delusions that are unique to yourself, rather than those of an institution. Tell me truly, would you be at all aware of Jesus, if there had never been any churches designed to perpetuate such a myth? Who do you think translated your Bible? How can we KNOW that your version of the Bible is the official one, and not the interpretation presented by any of the thousands of Christian denominations?
 1.  Such as was the case for Moses, Abraham, David, Job, etc etc
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2012, 04:43:26 PM »
I did not get that Kramer...oops Kymer chose to believe the alien thing. I read it as a; far out what if?

The quoran has mohammed riding skyward on a horse with white wings. An observer, or Mo himself, would have been hard pressed to sell a flying saucer story. They'd have to tell the tale within a frame of reference that was familiar.  A flying horse would be more believable because the citizens knew what a horse, or maybe a flying camel, looked like. The people would have been more likely to swallow that explanation.  Apparently they did.

This not a serious conjecture. What the hell, we are just kicking the can down the street.


Offline kymer

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Re: Reinterpreting the bible
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »
My name is kymer, not kramer. If you wish to address or refer to me, please use my name.